Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Hephaestus Hover Tank  (Read 8853 times)

Moonsword

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Vehicle of the Week: Hephaestus Hover Tank
« on: 22 November 2011, 18:36:55 »
Vehicle of the Week: Hephaestus Hover Tank

For those of you who live in the United States, I'm going to wish you a Happy Thanksgiving.  Those of you who don't, enjoy your Thursday.  This week's offering to the harvest of carnage is the Hephaestus Hover Tank, a Hell's Horses design whose origins lie with their efforts to resurrect the Kanga, a Star League Defense Force tank renowned as the only jumping tank in history.  (Not that I'd be entirely surprised if it turns out the SLDF had a few other surprises of their own.)  The problem they ran into was not that it was impossible to duplicate the technology.  It wasn't and they demonstrated as much with the Kanga-X in XTRO: Mercenaries.  It's not impossible to do a lot of things in military R&D that no one ever does.  One of the usual reasons why is that it's impractical, which is the problem the Horses ran right into at full gallop, particularly when they tried to mix in Omni capabilities.  (Although TRO: Prototypes says it's impossible, nothing to that effect is in the construction rules.  Remember that TRO: Prototypes represents the Republic's own guesstimates on what the Horses' reasoning was in not going down that route, and beyond that, rules trump fluff.  That said, it's probably going to be a while before we see a canon design breaking that particular engineering barrier.)  After the program was initially shelved, James Cobb ordered another look at it to createa a more flexibible infantry transport.  (Exactly why that was necessary involves getting some questions answered about the Bandit; we know it is from the Golden Century based on the MUL but at the same time, by the Jihad only the Dragoons are using a vehicle that would be a natural fit for Horse tactics.)  Even after a production, non-jumping version was introduced, the Horses kept pursuing the issue, finally managing to build a true jump tank after the Jihad with the help of the Nova Cats, who turned over recovered information on an experimental turreted variant of the Kanga.  Included was a new version of the Kanga's revolutionary targeting and jump management system, although as I noted above, they weren't able to tackle the problems of an OmniVehicle without including something akin to a 'Mech's gyro to manage the whole mess.  While the original Hephaestus was deployed initially to the 21st Mechanized Cluster and Alpha Keshik, formations heavily chewed up in Khan Fletcher's conflict with the Bears, and has a good chance of still being in service with the Stone Lions back in the Homeworlds, the Hephaestus Jump Tank has gone to Cavalry Clusters as a scout and is a frequent member of Striker Clusters.

The original Hephaestus Scout Tank is both a reasonably useful unit and an effective demonstration of the old saw about being a jack of all trades and a master of none.  At 30 tons, it's inarguably a light vehicle, smaller than the classic Scarborough hovers, and its 110-rated fusion engine is cheap (comparatively) but provides both a 130 kph flank speed and 10 free heat sinks for using potent Clan energy weapons, a good idea on anything this size.  Five tons of Clan ferro-fibrous armor gives you an armor layout of 20/20/18/18, not great but not bad.  It's going to take an HGR or IHGR for a single-hit kill.  The fixed turret is a half-ton, giving you the ability to put most of the available podspsace in there.  The reason I said “most” is the fact that Cobb's direction produced a tank with four tons of infantry space.  That's a very normal tonnage for a battle armor transport in the Inner Sphere; here, it's a ton short for moving Elementals, although you can move jump infantry points without much trouble and you can still hang Elementals off the side, so things could be a lot worse.  An active probe was also provided.  The impact of that limits you to only 6 tons of podspace.  Overall, the chassis reminds me a bit of the Owens - a good dedicated scout and transport but the fixed equipment gets in the way of doing anything else; in this case, that probe is getting in the way of the fixed equipment!  The configurations are generally a lot more sensible overall, though.  The Prime is an electronics boat with TAG and ECM supported by a pair of Clan MPLs, a decently punchy armament to go along with what the TAG can do to someone.  The A goes for Clan LRMs in the form of a 15 tube launcher supported by an ERSL; personally, I'm not sure I wouldn't have traded Artemis for another ton of ammo or another laser but it's there too.  The B goes the other direction, with two ERMLs and a Streak SRM 6 fed by a ton of ammunition.  The only offbeat model is the Hephaestus C, with two ATM 3s fed by three tons of ammunition.  (I'm sure some of you are already planning to substitute IATMs.)  Notably, the C is also cheapest in BV terms.  (Since the MUL hasn't gotten TRO3067 loaded, here are the BVs per HMV: Prime 777, A 768, B 957, C 577.)

The Hephaestus Jump Tank is a somewhat different animal.  TRO Prototypes notes that it gained five tons but is generally an improvement.  The fun starts with the 140-rated fusion engine, providing the power to go 151 kph, and the jump jets give you 240 meters of reach, a number that's rather high for 'Mechs, let alone a tank.  Unlike the usual “fun” of motive hits, the obligatory roll on hovers gets a -1 this time.  To blunt the impact of those rolls, Horses engineers put an armored motive system on in place of the infantry bay.  Another half-ton of armor went on, too, oddly arranged 20/24/19/18.  I'm not quite sure how I feel about that since a hover, especially one that can jump and is frequently going to have more flexibility about here it's pointed than usual, does not want to expose its sides when it can do anything about it.  The armament is only a pair of Clan ERMLs - light for Clan units but compared to a lot of vehicles, a nasty punch.  Supplementing that is an active probe, ECM, and TAG, more or less duplicating the main jobs of the Hephaestus Prime.

If you're planning to use the Hephaestus, you need to first determine the variant.  The Prime and the Jump Tank operate more or less the same way, both them as fast-moving scouts and electronic warfare boats with enough punch to keep the small fry honest.  (Probably mercifully for the Wolves, the Clans don't have semi-guided LRMs, keeping the number of potential abuses of the Svartalfa down to a relatively sane level.)  The A is a more general combatant but with the limited ammo, I'm not sure the Prime isn't going to do just as well in a lot of situations.  The B is probably my pick for the best generalist - ERMLs have a decent range when you've got this much speed and the Streaks will make taking on opponents who have had their armor breached a much easier proposition.  Those of you using the Jump Tank, keep the PSR it has to make in mind.  You may have a reduced chance of botching it but reduced is not none.  If you're acting as a transport, as ever, mind the need to get your passengers where they need to be before you start going into combat.

To stop a Hephaestus is relatively simple, especially against the slower, less heavily armored original.  LB-Xs are the usual tool of choice, with a shout out to the reach and hitting power of the SB Gauss, followed by other highly accurate weapons like pulse lasers to deal with it.  The Clans are going to have an easier time of it overall.  The Jump Tank, with its armored motive system, is a more difficult nut to crack but like the Prime, if you think that TAG is connected to something (generally Arrow IVs, a system the Horses are known to use fairly often), you need to put it down posthaste.  The others may be less important unless you've got reason to suspect something you won't like (like Ebon Keshik members) are riding around.

References: While the MUL is still waiting on data for both TROs the Hephaestus has appeared in, the wiki has imagery for you.  The only imagery on CamoSpecs is from Zeta Galaxy.
« Last Edit: 25 March 2019, 20:19:50 by Moonsword »

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #1 on: 23 November 2011, 02:10:05 »
Idly some things I thought of that further cemented my standing in Moony's eyes as a deranged lunatic.  Say, a mod of a Heff Jump Tank with a Narc beacon, for games of LRM dodgeball with Svartbetas.

The really disgusting gem that gets overlooked a lot, in my opinion, is the format of the classic Hephaestus.  You get a four-ton cargo bay, which is all well and good for carrying infantry, and it's not hard (one of the Bandit/Badger/Bawhatevers of the Dragoons does this) to add more space.  So those six tons of pod space can be turned in for BA storage, and suddenly you have a full point of LRM Gnomes being carried internally.  Or tailor a few guns on, maybe just an ERML and hey - you can load Minotaurs.  Add a few more and you get instant Roc transports.  What makes it really sick?  It's an Omnitank.  Put some heavy or medium BA suits on via mechanizing, and suddenly your armor novas get a lot more brutal.

One star of Ten tanks, if you made them Hephaestuses, is enough to carry two stars of your BA just by mechanization.  Load up the cargo holds (losing a ton of pod space to do it) with more Elementals and that's another two stars - a full pair of binaries ready to roll.  The mix of Omni mechanization and onboard cargo just makes it haul a LOAD of stuff. 
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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #2 on: 23 November 2011, 05:16:01 »
Yeah, well... it's cruel and unusual punishment in my opinion.  That said, it would be a pretty effective Narc platform, whatever the Wolves think of the idea.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #3 on: 03 March 2019, 06:35:59 »
Idly some things I thought of that further cemented my standing in Moony's eyes as a deranged lunatic.  Say, a mod of a Heff Jump Tank with a Narc beacon, for games of LRM dodgeball with Svartbetas.

The really disgusting gem that gets overlooked a lot, in my opinion, is the format of the classic Hephaestus.  You get a four-ton cargo bay, which is all well and good for carrying infantry, and it's not hard (one of the Bandit/Badger/Bawhatevers of the Dragoons does this) to add more space.  So those six tons of pod space can be turned in for BA storage, and suddenly you have a full point of LRM Gnomes being carried internally.  Or tailor a few guns on, maybe just an ERML and hey - you can load Minotaurs.  Add a few more and you get instant Roc transports.  What makes it really sick?  It's an Omnitank.  Put some heavy or medium BA suits on via mechanizing, and suddenly your armor novas get a lot more brutal.

One star of Ten tanks, if you made them Hephaestuses, is enough to carry two stars of your BA just by mechanization.  Load up the cargo holds (losing a ton of pod space to do it) with more Elementals and that's another two stars - a full pair of binaries ready to roll.  The mix of Omni mechanization and onboard cargo just makes it haul a LOAD of stuff.
How about a star Heffs lugging two stars of BA Mechanized and in the bays to stars of the Horses execellent heavy jump infantry. Which just happens to come in at 4 tons a star. You have have a trinary's worth of conventional forces with a binary worth if ba.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #4 on: 03 March 2019, 09:38:52 »
Huh, it's been a while since anyone mentioned this article to me.  Adding more cargo space for infantry reminds me of an anecdote about a would-be IFV variant of the Galleon:

"In addition, while four tons were allotted for infantry, the compartment was sized for four humanoid battle armors; operators hoping to fit a platoon of conventional infantry into the Galleon have been disappointed (particularly after the infamous “two-squad clown car” video made its rounds on Tamarind media networks)." - XTRO Marik, page 9

It's not something the Hephaestus is made for (look at the canon loadouts), unlike the Dragoon vehicles, so I'd imagine it's not something they can really do practically.  It's allowable within the construction rules, though, along with any number of other sins.

Coming to the main point, when you need that much BA to handle a problem, I'm not sure disarming the transports is a good idea, and if you need that many warm bodies for something like house-to-house searching, conventional Clan infantry (especially in Clan-grade armor and loaded for close assault) is nasty enough that bringing a binary of foot or jump troops in the main bays along with a binary of Elementals ought to be capable of doing that job.  Bonus: The hovers can do fire support, EW, and spotting because they weren't disarmed.

If they're not, you're beginning to exit the realm of things a Hephaestus should be handling without a few points of heavy or assault vehicles, and when taking out a single thin-skinned hover can strand that many BA, you're putting a lot of eggs in one basket.  Large-scale transport is done more efficiently by air or DropShip.  There are limited cases like amphibious transport in secure areas where I can see some utility but if you're not doing that under fire, it's probably better to just make multiple ferry trips instead of messing around with the podload (and then having to put it back when you're done).  Whatever the BA normally operates off of - 'Mechs, OmniTanks, etc. - isn't going to get across as fast as the hover tanks will anyway because they're either going to ford the river, find a bridge, or have to attempt going over underwater.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #5 on: 04 March 2019, 10:50:52 »
I think since the Hep is a 'Scout' tank it also works really well with the TacOps BA weight rules- it can carry a point of the light BA in all configurations though the D is different.  Constables, Spectres, Kobold, Sylphs, Sea Fox, Resgate, or Nighthawks can all take advantage of the Hep's ability to get them into the zone they are going to be scouting.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #6 on: 04 March 2019, 20:51:24 »
If they're not, you're beginning to exit the realm of things a Hephaestus should be handling without a few points of heavy or assault vehicles, and when taking out a single thin-skinned hover can strand that many BA, you're putting a lot of eggs in one basket.  Large-scale transport is done more efficiently by air or DropShip.  There are limited cases like amphibious transport in secure areas where I can see some utility but if you're not doing that under fire, it's probably better to just make multiple ferry trips instead of messing around with the podload (and then having to put it back when you're done).  Whatever the BA normally operates off of - 'Mechs, OmniTanks, etc. - isn't going to get across as fast as the hover tanks will anyway because they're either going to ford the river, find a bridge, or have to attempt going over underwater.

This is exactly why my favorite method of deploying battle armor is by Omnifighter. :D
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #7 on: 06 March 2019, 12:03:36 »
How about a star Heffs lugging two stars of BA Mechanized and in the bays to stars of the Horses execellent heavy jump infantry. Which just happens to come in at 4 tons a star. You have have a trinary's worth of conventional forces with a binary worth if ba.
I was confused for a minute, until I remembered that a point of vehicles is 2.

This is exactly why my favorite method of deploying battle armor is by Omnifighter. :D
And the rules for that are the same as jumping out of a dropship, right?

Or tailor a few guns on, maybe just an ERML and hey - you can load Minotaurs.  Add a few more and you get instant Roc transports.  What makes it really sick?  It's an Omnitank.  Put some heavy or medium BA suits on via mechanizing, and suddenly your armor novas get a lot more brutal. 
Wouldn't the protos be stored as "cargo," in that case?  Don't have the cite handy but isn't that something like 15-30 minutes to unpack?
« Last Edit: 06 March 2019, 12:11:57 by grimlock1 »
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #8 on: 06 March 2019, 13:41:50 »
The Huffy's 4 ton infantry bay has always struck me as a bit weird, if only because of the art.

With it being a good one by Plog



If that 4 tons is to carry a full Infantry point of 25 Men and Women, how the HELL are you going to fit them in there unless you basically hack off their limbs and then stack the screaming torsos :s
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #9 on: 06 March 2019, 15:43:30 »
If that 4 tons is to carry a full Infantry point of 25 Men and Women, how the HELL are you going to fit them in there unless you basically hack off their limbs and then stack the screaming torsos :s

I mean, this is the Clans we're talking about, I wouldn't put it past them. They'd probably leave 'em with one arm each to work their gun, but they can operate their jump packs with their teeth, right?


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #10 on: 06 March 2019, 23:49:35 »
always assumed they sardine-packed them into those front pylons and everyone hoped the thing didn't crash.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #11 on: 07 March 2019, 07:03:55 »
Isn't 3 tons the right size for the basic foot rifle infantry platoon of 28.  4 would be roomy in comparison

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #12 on: 07 March 2019, 10:34:31 »
Clan Infantry Point is 25 troopers- and IIRC foot & jump weight differently.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #13 on: 07 March 2019, 12:31:00 »
Jump is 21 per 3.  Foot is 28.  A jump platoon of 25 should fit just fine in 4

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #14 on: 08 March 2019, 10:57:52 »
Jump is 21 per 3.  Foot is 28.  A jump platoon of 25 should fit just fine in 4

Not quite.  Most IS jump platoons of 21 men use 4 ton bays (although they can just barely fit into 3.5 tons if you do the math).  Clan jump platoons are in groups of 20 and have the same tonnage requirements.  When you consider that a lot of Clan infantry troopers are heavier than IS equivalents because they're Elementals, not baseline humans, and also frequently have literally heavier gear it makes sense they need a 4 ton bay to get the extra elbow room.

The platoon sizes are on page 147 in TechManual; weight per trooper is in the same chapter on page 155.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #15 on: 18 March 2019, 01:08:18 »
Mag-Clamp your Protos, allow a Point of BA to ride on top... and carry your Infantry indoors...

Now a Star is worth what again?

10 Heff
10 Proto
200 - 250 PBI
50 BA

 >:D

I'd run 6 Heff, 4 Epona, Binary of BA, carry 10 Proto and deploy the PBI as needed...

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #16 on: 20 March 2019, 06:25:04 »
Included was a new version of the Kanga's revolutionary targeting and jump management system, although as I noted above, they weren't able to tackle the problems of an OmniVehicle without including something akin to a 'Mech's gyro to manage the whole mess.

Speculation mode: Enhanced Imaging implants? Something derived from ProtoMech control systems?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #17 on: 20 March 2019, 07:16:31 »
Speculation mode: Enhanced Imaging implants? Something derived from ProtoMech control systems?
Interface Armor?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #18 on: 23 March 2019, 14:54:42 »
The Huffy's 4 ton infantry bay has always struck me as a bit weird, if only because of the art.

With it being a good one by Plog



If that 4 tons is to carry a full Infantry point of 25 Men and Women, how the HELL are you going to fit them in there unless you basically hack off their limbs and then stack the screaming torsos :s
Well if those doors are big enough for Elementals (without launcher) to emerge we have a minimal height of 2m for the opening so the total width of this tank would be at least 4m at those doors.
So minimal it's a corridor of 2x4m enough to pack 24 soldiers in 60x50cm seats. Add some centimetres and you get your space.

Some artworks like Trajan or Guerteltier have infantry pictures and you see that those vehicles are really really huge

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #19 on: 25 March 2019, 09:54:02 »
Well, the door is also angled- like a gull-wing door.  So its even wider probably.  They also do not go the whole height of the vehicle, so we do not know where the hover skirt ends or the compressor/engine begins.

Finally, ammo bay of holding is fine, but not a troop bay of holding?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Hepaestus Hover Tank
« Reply #20 on: 25 March 2019, 12:30:37 »
"Er... no one look in there, please."

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