Harmony Gold legal case discussion thread

[Charistoph]

Settlement implies payments and ongoing stipulations. As far as we can tell, there was none of that. Just an agreement to end legal proceedings. The word settlement wasn't even used in the last docket.

Implication means nothing.  If the case is settled without going to trial, that is a settlement and the end of litigation.  The specific type of settlement can be argued, obviously, and I don't think anyone was suggesting that it was a structured settlement, just an agreed upon end of the litigation prior to going to trial.  That is sufficient for Law.com's definition as provided by the People's Law Dictionary by Gerald and Kathleen Hill, along with other legal websites quickly googled.

[William J. Pennington]

I'm glad things have worked out now that we are down to the point of arguing over trivialities such as the technicalities of what is or isn't a settlement for lack of anything to worry about,

[Maingunnery]

Implication means nothing.  If the case is settled without going to trial, that is a settlement and the end of litigation.  The specific type of settlement can be argued, obviously, and I don't think anyone was suggesting that it was a structured settlement, just an agreed upon end of the litigation prior to going to trial.  That is sufficient for Law.com's definition as provided by the People's Law Dictionary by Gerald and Kathleen Hill, along with other legal websites quickly googled.

I think that abou does have a point, in this forum I have seen people go completely nuts on the basis of reading some words in the worst possible light.
And a structured settlement is what most people think off when hearing settlement.

[Fear Factory]

Implication means nothing.  If the case is settled without going to trial, that is a settlement and the end of litigation.  The specific type of settlement can be argued, obviously, and I don't think anyone was suggesting that it was a structured settlement, just an agreed upon end of the litigation prior to going to trial.  That is sufficient for Law.com's definition as provided by the People's Law Dictionary by Gerald and Kathleen Hill, along with other legal websites quickly googled.

So why is there a long argument about what a "settlement" is when we have the document available to us telling us what was agreed to by both parties?  You know, a settlement.

The case was settled by dropping the case with prejudice and paying legal fees.  That's the stipulation.  That's arguably the best outcome HG could have hoped for.  It's over.  If there was any other settlement it would have been referenced in this document even if it was kept from the public and blacked out.

So at this point, speculating is a waste of time.

Easiest way to put it, for those of us who watched the BattleTech cartoon:  HG isn't going to pull a Nicolai Malthus by honoring an agreement to the letter and taking all the people off MY HOME PLANET.  The wording is clear and concise.

[ColBosch]

...it isn't valid fair use...

Sorry, I have to call this out. "Fair Use" only covers limited reproduction of copyrighted material for the purposes of review or education. If I quote a paragraph of your novel to criticize it, or to teach a class, then that is Fair Use. It has absolutely nothing to do with making copies for commercial sale.

[Von Jankmon]

Thank Kerensky that is over.

A plain language explanation:

There were talks, they resulted in an agreement placed before the judge of dismissal with prejudice, with no voluntary elements listed.  This means that once Judge Zilly signs the documentation in its current form IT IS OVER.  Harmony Gold can never come back at any of the Battletech developers, including Catalyst Games Labs and no restrictions or caveats are placed.  Some monies may have changed hands indirectly, but there is no deal made or required to keep the reseen on or off the table.

I do not know how this effects the resolution of earlier legal agreements, but Harmony Gold cannot in any way come after Catalyst Games Labs, Piranha Games or Harebreained Schemes for the use of the reseen variants of the following designs:

Stinger, Wasp, Phoenix Hawk, Valkyrie, Rifleman, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder and Longbow.

Other reseen mechs such as Locust (Crusher Joe) and Shadow Hawk, Thunderbolt, Battlemaster (Dougram) amongst others were never under threat due to prior friendly agreements with the IP holders of the unseen designs.

We know that there are models made for Warhammer and Marauder for HBS Battletech computer game.  The legal wording means that these can be used.  Whether the Macross derivative reseen will in fact be used I cannot say, but it is now just a question of which mechs to code, not which mechs can be legally included.  A business decision rather than a legal one.

There may still be terms restrictions on discussing settlements active from earlier lawsuits,  I dont now if those terms are still valid, and I cannot assume that the original unseen are in any way available, those rights still belong to their respective IP holders, which may or may not include Harmony Gold.

However at current state of play the reseen are now free from legal controversy from Harmony Gold, and Harmony Gold is prohibited from going after them again.

[Dies Irae]

Effectively the reseen redesigns were published here:
1st Succession War - Locust, Wasp, Valkyrie, Wolverine, Shadow Hawk
2nd Succession War - Griffin, Thunderbolt, BattleMaster
Combat Manual Mercenaries - Locust, Ostscout, Shadow Hawk, Warhammer (Marauder on cover)
Combat Manual Kurita - Wasp, Phoenix Hawk, Wolverine, BattleMaster
The Longbow, is probably safe as long as the 3058 version gets trotted out.

Rifleman and Archer both have 'Primitive' variants. Not ideal, but eh. Much better if the nuseen Archer and Rifleman get used but I'll take what I can get.

Effectively, unless I'm mistaken, this means the remaining currently unpublished Unseen designs are the Goliath, Scorpion, Ostroc and Ostsol with the two Ost designs being... well... sort of... if you squint, derivative of the Regult.

I'd be mad happy to see redesigns of the last four.

[Tymers Realm]

You forgot the Crusader. Though it was a WIP when the HG trolling started.
Though personally, I just want to see the remaining Unseen/Reseen get the Classic treatment and get those published as soon as feasible.

[Dies Irae]

You forgot the Crusader. Though it was a WIP when the HG trolling started.
Though personally, I just want to see the remaining Unseen/Reseen get the Classic treatment and get those published as soon as feasible.

Yeah. The Crud. For some reason, I ALWAYS forget the Crud.

[Sandslice]

Effectively the reseen redesigns were published here:
1st Succession War - Locust, Wasp, Valkyrie, Wolverine, Shadow Hawk
2nd Succession War - Griffin, Thunderbolt, BattleMaster
Combat Manual Mercenaries - Locust, Ostscout, Shadow Hawk, Warhammer (Marauder on cover)
Combat Manual Kurita - Wasp, Phoenix Hawk, Wolverine, BattleMaster
The Longbow, is probably safe as long as the 3058 version gets trotted out.

Rifleman and Archer both have 'Primitive' variants. Not ideal, but eh. Much better if the nuseen Archer and Rifleman get used but I'll take what I can get.

Effectively, unless I'm mistaken, this means the remaining currently unpublished Unseen designs are the Goliath, Scorpion, Ostroc and Ostsol with the two Ost designs being... well... sort of... if you squint, derivative of the Regult.

I'd be mad happy to see redesigns of the last four.

And the Goliath, being of the same source (Dougram) as the Shadow Hawk, may actually be fine regardless.  (:

[wolfspider]

Yeah. The Crud. For some reason, I ALWAYS forget the Crud.

Every one forgets the Crud until you roll that floating crit on a torso!

[mitchberthelson]

And the Goliath, being of the same source (Dougram) as the Shadow Hawk, may actually be fine regardless.  (:

Scorpion is Dougram too.

[Pat Payne]

Scorpion is Dougram too.

Essentially, it seems the Classics break down like this:

Known Safe (non-Macross or so extremely changed that even HG didn't want to contest):
BattleMaster
Wolverine
Shadow Hawk
Griffin
Locust
Ostroc
Ostsol
Ostscout
Goliath
Scorpion
Thunderbolt

Presumed Safe pending statement from CGL:
Warhammer
Marauder
Wasp
Phoenix Hawk
Archer

Unknown:
Crusader
Stinger
Longbow
Rifleman

the two Ost designs being... well... sort of... if you squint, derivative of the Regult.

You'd need to have your eyes glued shut to see any similarities even with the Unseen art, honestly. The last time a OST-mech looked even remotely like a Regult was in BattleDroids, IINM.

[MarauderD]

Essentially, it seems the Classics break down like this:

Known Safe (non-Macross or so extremely changed that even HG didn't want to contest):
BattleMaster
Wolverine
Shadow Hawk
Griffin
Locust
Ostroc
Ostsol
Ostscout
Goliath
Scorpion
Thunderbolt

Presumed Safe pending statement from CGL:
Warhammer
Marauder
Wasp
Phoenix Hawk
Archer

Unknown:
Crusader
Stinger
Longbow
Rifleman

You'd need to have your eyes glued shut to see any similarities even with the Unseen art, honestly. The last time a OST-mech looked even remotely like a Regult was in BattleDroids, IINM.

That's how I see it as well. I'm curious as to when (read: if) we get a statement by CGL or Topps regarding their plans to finalize the implementation of Shimmering Sword's re imagined classics in light of the recent dismissal with prejudice. 

[Sandslice]

Scorpion is Dougram too.

F35C Blizzard Gunner, found it.   :thumbsup:

[guardiandashi]

Essentially, it seems the Classics break down like this:

Known Safe (non-Macross or so extremely changed that even HG didn't want to contest):
BattleMaster
Wolverine
Shadow Hawk
Griffin
Locust
Ostroc
Ostsol
Ostscout
Goliath
Scorpion
Thunderbolt

Presumed Safe pending statement from CGL:
Warhammer
Marauder
Wasp
Phoenix Hawk
Archer

Unknown:
Crusader
Stinger
Longbow
Rifleman

You'd need to have your eyes glued shut to see any similarities even with the Unseen art, honestly. The last time a OST-mech looked even remotely like a Regult was in BattleDroids, IINM.

actually i believe the PGI rifleman falls under presumed safe.

[MarauderD]

Its true that there are two bodies of artworks I'm concerned with: Shimmering Sword's new Classics, and Flying Debris' mechs from MWO.

In a perfect world, they would all be safe. But there may be distinctions between the two. I don't know.

[klarg1]

Its true that there are two bodies of artworks I'm concerned with: Shimmering Sword's new Classics, and Flying Debris' mechs from MWO.

In a perfect world, they would all be safe. But there may be distinctions between the two. I don't know.

If they haven't been challenged in court, it's hard to be sure, but the signs are generally positive. HG has little to gain from pursuing Catalyst's version (no significant money to be had), and can reasonably expect another hammering if they pursue PGI.

None of that means they wouldn't do it, but it gives hope.

[Von Jankmon]

No Harmony Gold cannot launch new lawsuits, because of the agreement to abide by a Dismissal with Prejudice ruling with no voluntary stipulations.  The 'Dismissal with Prejudice' means the case is dismissed, and the 'Prejudice' means that any attempt by Harmony Gold to refile will be automatically decided in the defendants favour.  'No voluntary stipulation' means that this was come to through an out of court settlement that did not result in any exemption terms to the 'Dismissal with Prejudice'.

In other words Harmony Gold has capitulated on its claim to Battletech imagery and designs as they currently stand.  The reseen are now our isorla. Well bargained and done.

[monbvol]

No Harmony Gold cannot launch new lawsuits, because of the agreement to abide by a Dismissal with Prejudice ruling with no voluntary stipulations.  The 'Dismissal with Prejudice' means the case is dismissed, and the 'Prejudice' means that any attempt by Harmony Gold to refile will be automatically decided in the defendants favour.  'No voluntary stipulation' means that this was come to through an out of court settlement that did not result in any exemption terms to the 'Dismissal with Prejudice'.

In other words Harmony Gold has capitulated on its claim to Battletech imagery and designs as they currently stand.  The reseen are now our isorla. Well bargained and done.

The part that people are worried apart and may not be articulating properly is the mechs to yet get new official "this is how it always looked" art work.

Those in that category can potentially be sued over once published.

Everything else?  It is safe.

So ultimately in a very real way Friday has seen the end of the unseen issue and likely saw the end of Harmony Gold to ever raise it again against IMR/CGL.  After all even if PGI had to give something to Harmony Gold to end the case there was never a joint defense agreement or power of attorney filed so IMR/CGL gave nothing and owes nothing to HG.

To PGI thank you seems paltry and insufficient.

[Sartris]

Essentially, it seems the Classics break down like this:

Known Safe (non-Macross or so extremely changed that even HG didn't want to contest):
BattleMaster
Wolverine
Shadow Hawk
Griffin
Locust
Ostroc
Ostsol
Ostscout
Goliath
Scorpion
Thunderbolt

Presumed Safe pending statement from CGL:
Warhammer
Marauder
Wasp
Phoenix Hawk
Archer

Unknown:
Crusader
Stinger
Longbow
Rifleman

You'd need to have your eyes glued shut to see any similarities even with the Unseen art, honestly. The last time a OST-mech looked even remotely like a Regult was in BattleDroids, IINM.

Marauder II?

[truetanker]

Marauder II?

And lets not forget the IIC variants here either.

TT

[PreacherPatriot1776]

And lets not forget the IIC variants here either.

TT

The IIC variants are safe since they were originally done by VMI. HG has nothing to do with them and have no standing. Why are people so afraid of HG? They've just lost 4 major cases in a row.

[MarauderD]

The IIC variants are safe since they were originally done by VMI. HG has nothing to do with them and have no standing. Why are people so afraid of HG? They've just lost 4 major cases in a row.

Because when a company is litigious and greedy they can cost you a truckload of money because they force you to hire a legal team, create a litigation strategy, start compiling evidence.....

They'll sue anyone they think infringes on an IP they may not even own. Not people to be trusted, IMO.

[truetanker]

So what your saying is Speck and the rest of the gang at Iron Wind doesn't have any problems recasting these IIC molds again?

I was under the influence that the Unseen included these as well.

Color me wrong here, but I for one wouldn't mind a new recasting of these. My collection would love to open up the few OOP NIB IICs if I can get a steady resupply to do so.

TT

[Pat Payne]

The IIC variants are safe since they were originally done by VMI. HG has nothing to do with them and have no standing. Why are people so afraid of HG? They've just lost 4 major cases in a row.

Technically they're safe, but for practical purposes, FASA, Wizkids and now IMR/CGL have declined to use them, or any art not 100% made in-house. Not because of the same tangles, but because they don't completely own them, FASA was worried about other legal tangles down the line if  the legalities got muddled somehow. They could use them if they wanted to, but they're voluntarily not using them. This includes as well designs made by STUDIO NUE themselves for FASA to replace the Unseen in Japan when the game was translated over there.

[PreacherPatriot1776]

Because when a company is litigious and greedy they can cost you a truckload of money because they force you to hire a legal team, create a litigation strategy, start compiling evidence.....

They'll sue anyone they think infringes on an IP they may not even own. Not people to be trusted, IMO.

They can't sue anyone any longer over mech designs and more specifically their claims that they created big, stompy robots. All of those claims were dismissed with prejudice. That means they can't sue period.

[PreacherPatriot1776]

Technically they're safe, but for practical purposes, FASA, Wizkids and now IMR/CGL have declined to use them, or any art not 100% made in-house. Not because of the same tangles, but because they don't completely own them, FASA was worried about other legal tangles down the line if  the legalities got muddled somehow. They could use them if they wanted to, but they're voluntarily not using them. This includes as well designs made by STUDIO NUE themselves for FASA to replace the Unseen in Japan when the game was translated over there.

Yes, I know. I was answering someone's questions regarding the IICs. They could receive their own reseen treatment and some are going to with PGI.

[Pat Payne]

 

Yes, I know. I was answering someone's questions regarding the IICs. They could receive their own reseen treatment and some are going to with PGI.

I understand that, I just wanted to make sure it was crystal clear as to why the IICs probably won't come out of the "Unseen box" anytime soon, to forestall the "Hey... now that the case is won, IICs for everybody!" cries.

They can't sue anyone any longer over mech designs and more specifically their claims that they created big, stompy robots. All of those claims were dismissed with prejudice. That means they can't sue period.

No. They can't sue over the designs that were brought up in the complaints in court. Those design are safe and immunized. However, should HG decide to go out of their gourd again and sue over a new crop of Classics, they'd be able to.

[PreacherPatriot1776]

I understand that, I just wanted to make sure it was crystal clear as to why the IICs probably won't come out of the "Unseen box" anytime soon, to forestall the "Hey... now that the case is won, IICs for everybody!" cries.

No. They can't sue over the designs that were brought up in the complaints in court. Those design are safe and immunized. However, should HG decide to go out of their gourd again and sue over a new crop of Classics, they'd be able to.

I suggest you re-read HG's arguments presented in their court filings. They made the claim to all things big, stompy robot. Since they made that claim and the case was stipulated with dismissal with prejudice then HG cannot use the same argument again to sue another company over mechs in general.

I spent the better part of two decades researching the entire unseens and posting my findings, especially the court cases.