Mech design decisions that make no sense

[massey]

This is arguably the exact opposite of the purpose of quirks.

Yes, but they don't always get it right.

[Scotty]

Yes, but they don't always get it right.

This seems both subjective and also totally irrelevant to the claim you made that they aren't representative of how a given Mech is supposed to operate.

That said, I'm curious which ones are wrong*.

*Not having more quirks isn't wrong, I mean which quirks are incorrect.

[Orin J.]

I'm confused as to how the Cyclops of all things is a contentious choice of command vehicle, but now that we're here i ahve to admit i'm curious how much further it'll go.

[SCC]

No, I'm challenging you to think of reasons to actually use the CCM. Stretch your brain, it's good for you.

Assuming you mean at all, as opposed to other options, well it's got the requisite 7 tons of comm gear that all good command centers have, the thing is the 30 turn set up time in TW play (I don't even know if it's usable at other levels) means that by the time it's set up the fight is almost certainly over. If you can start with it set up you're good, as long as you don't want to move, but you can cram 4 LB 10-X's into the structure using the field gun rules so there that.

[Weirdo]

I didn't think anyone would stoop to customs, it's a psychological blind spot of mine. Got anything that uses an actual CCM and doesn't involve customs? Yes, I'm willing to assume it was set up prior to the game.

[Apocal]

I can only imagine it has something to do with double-blind play.

[SCC]

I didn't think anyone would stoop to customs, it's a psychological blind spot of mine. Got anything that uses an actual CCM and doesn't involve customs? Yes, I'm willing to assume it was set up prior to the game.

The only 'customs' I was using where field gun infantry.

And problem with having the CCM set up before the game is that, well, you lose any trace of portability for it, which is basically the reason to use one.

[dgorsman]

The benefits of portability would be strategic, not tactical.  You wouldn't be using a CCM for anything less than a battalion, and more likely a regiment.  It would be set up close to the area of operations but far enough that normal combat turns shouldn't be an issue when remounting.  With the above unit sizes that's some distance.

The commander may not even be the Mech pilot, but if so they can move forward with the troops and still have the benefits of the support staff.

[Apocal]

The only 'customs' I was using where field gun infantry.

And problem with having the CCM set up before the game is that, well, you lose any trace of portability for it, which is basically the reason to use one.

And if it is fixed in place like that, well, artillery isn't exactly unheard of on the table.

The benefits of portability would be strategic, not tactical.  You wouldn't be using a CCM for anything less than a battalion, and more likely a regiment.  It would be set up close to the area of operations but far enough that normal combat turns shouldn't be an issue when remounting.  With the above unit sizes that's some distance.

The commander may not even be the Mech pilot, but if so they can move forward with the troops and still have the benefits of the support staff.

Well, it came up in a discussion of why you would use the CCM instead of the Battle Computer quirked Cyclops. I'm wracking my brain trying to think of reasons why, since they both give a +2 to initiative rolls. Maybe if CCMs give an initiative bonus even while off-board...?

[SCC]

The thing is that you don't just want ONE unit with comm gear, you want a total of ELEVEN, the first with 7+ tons for that sweet +2 initiative bonus and then the other ten to link to satellites, 6 to get one each of the generic ones on page 195 of TacOps, and then 4 more to connect to 4 different satellites, each carrying a different satellite imager (TacOps 338), these last 4 in addition to providing various overlapping benefits in revealing hidden units, they also provide a further +1 initiative each.

[The_Caveman]

I suspect comfort is going to come into play at some point. The CCM when deployed is basically a big fancy tent, which is going to be a more pleasant operations center to work in than a sweaty 'Mech cockpit in most climates.

Though it does beg the question, why not just use a Mobile HQ truck in the first place? I mean in the Succession Wars era the availability of MHQs isn't guaranteed, but at the time the Cyclops was designed that was hardly an issue.

[RifleMech]

It has 4 MPL, right? Switch those over to regular ML and pull the ArtIV, and you have your five tons.

5 tons? For a 3 ton Command Console?

Improved Communications quirk, existence of a CC version prior to 3025.  You yourself were the one earlier in this thread that said the circumstances of a unit's design at the time of its publication are irrelevant in the face of the current state of the game, no?

Fluffwise, the Cyclops was William Cameron's 'Mech when he was coordinating as XO the entire Wolf's Dragoons communications, and is specifically called out as unique in its capability to function in that role in the late Succession Wars.

It was unique because so many Cyclops had lost their B-2000 Battle Computer. Once those are lost the Cyclops end up being fast assault units or decoys to protect the real command mech. I think all Cyclops having the Command Quirk is depended on whether or not the B-2000 is functional or not.

The Cyclops has the Battle Computer Quirk, which provides +2 initiative, Command BattleMech provides a +1 that doesn't stack with Command Computer, and finally Combat Computer provides 4 extra heat dissipation.

Here's the thing, if I'm piloting a Cyclops I'm already getting the +2 to initiative that the CCM is giving me, so why would I deploy it?

And if it is fixed in place like that, well, artillery isn't exactly unheard of on the table.

Well, it came up in a discussion of why you would use the CCM instead of the Battle Computer quirked Cyclops. I'm wracking my brain trying to think of reasons why, since they both give a +2 to initiative rolls. Maybe if CCMs give an initiative bonus even while off-board...?

Because the CCM's 7 tons of Com. Equipment gives it ECM and ECCM capabilities and ghost targets. Those are things the Cyclops can't do and they can only be used once the CCM is deployed.  The CCM can also monitor 6 more remote sensors than a BattleMech can.

I suspect comfort is going to come into play at some point. The CCM when deployed is basically a big fancy tent, which is going to be a more pleasant operations center to work in than a sweaty 'Mech cockpit in most climates.

Though it does beg the question, why not just use a Mobile HQ truck in the first place? I mean in the Succession Wars era the availability of MHQs isn't guaranteed, but at the time the Cyclops was designed that was hardly an issue.

Because they can't go everywhere that mechs can.

[The_Caveman]

5 tons? For a 3 ton Command Console?

Was about a C3 Master, not a command console.

Because they can't go everywhere that mechs can.

This is invalidated by the need to have ground personnel to man and deploy the collapsible command module. Something has to transport those people and it can't be a 'Mech. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If the Cyclops goes somewhere that the staff car can't follow, the CCM is useless. If the Cyclops sticks close to the staff car, it forfeits the go-anywhere benefits of being a 'Mech. If you're going to hobble yourself by dragging around a dedicated staff vehicle, you may as well utilize the dedicated Mobile HQ, which can use its full capabilities on the move and is reasonably well protected.

The only case where I can see the CCM making logistical sense is in the bizarre case of a dedicated regimental headquarters 'Mech company, where all 12 MechWarriors plus an additional number of cockpit ride-alongs are assigned to staff the command post when it's deployed. But by definition if you're using the CCM you're taking an entire company of precious BattleMechs out of service to do it, and you'd still be better off having a MHQ vehicle and using the 'Mechs as bodyguards for it.

[Weirdo]

Was about a C3 Master, not a command console.

C3 is good for fire coordination, but utterly horrible for command. It does nothing useful on that front, aside from letting you monitor more remote sensors.

[Ruger]

This is invalidated by the need to have ground personnel to man and deploy the collapsible command module. Something has to transport those people and it can't be a 'Mech. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If the Cyclops goes somewhere that the staff car can't follow, the CCM is useless. If the Cyclops sticks close to the staff car, it forfeits the go-anywhere benefits of being a 'Mech. If you're going to hobble yourself by dragging around a dedicated staff vehicle, you may as well utilize the dedicated Mobile HQ, which can use its full capabilities on the move and is reasonably well protected.

The only case where I can see the CCM making logistical sense is in the bizarre case of a dedicated regimental headquarters 'Mech company, where all 12 MechWarriors plus an additional number of cockpit ride-alongs are assigned to staff the command post when it's deployed. But by definition if you're using the CCM you're taking an entire company of precious BattleMechs out of service to do it, and you'd still be better off having a MHQ vehicle and using the 'Mechs as bodyguards for it.

Why is that weird? You have to hot drop an entire ‘Mech regiment because your DropShips and JumpShips are needed elsewhere. The command company (which includes the staff for the CCM in rumble seats in the various ‘Mechs) sets up the CCM in an out of the way, hard to get to location, and then either provides guards for the CCM or acts as decoys to lure away headhunter units your enemy deploys.

Ruger

[Daryk]

Agreed, rumble seats can help with the staff transportation problem, but it's pretty uncomfortable, and requires as many 'mechs as staff members.

[Elmoth]

The place of a commander is in a command, not in a mech. Being in a Frontline mech is all cool and flash,and a great highway to an early grave and command chaos in the unit.

[dgorsman]

The place of a commander is in a command, not in a mech. Being in a Frontline mech is all cool and flash,and a great highway to an early grave and command chaos in the unit.

In the BattleTech universe, probably true at the regimental level, but debatable for battalion command.  In later eras with higher mobility and more nasty in smaller packages like BA and ProtoMechs, being in a traditional HQ can be a liability.  Look at what happened to Nondi Steiner.  Also, being in a Mech isn't necessarily at the very front lines e.g. directly commanding reinforcements.

[Ruger]

Agreed, rumble seats can help with the staff transportation problem, but it's pretty uncomfortable, and requires as many 'mechs as staff members.

I have to ask, what exactly is your point? These are soldiers. They are used to discomfort, especially for the limited amount of time it takes to hot drop from orbit and then to get to the setup area.

If needed, the hot drop is done with minimal personnel and then the rest are choppered in or something.

Ruger

[massey]

This seems both subjective and also totally irrelevant to the claim you made that they aren't representative of how a given Mech is supposed to operate.

That said, I'm curious which ones are wrong*.

*Not having more quirks isn't wrong, I mean which quirks are incorrect.

I'm not going to go digging through the books.  SCC's point, as I understood it, is that the Cyclops doesn't need the specialized 17 ton command unit, because the 5 ton command console gives it (and the unit it commands) a better bonus.

My point is even if that's the case, you can't look at a baseline Initiative bonus and say "this covers everything it does".

[Daryk]

I have to ask, what exactly is your point? These are soldiers. They are used to discomfort, especially for the limited amount of time it takes to hot drop from orbit and then to get to the setup area.

If needed, the hot drop is done with minimal personnel and then the rest are choppered in or something.

Ruger

My point is that exhausted staff officers aren't as capable as well rested ones, and that rumble seats aren't cockpit seats designed for long term occupancy.  I've pulled more than one 30 hour day, and can attest that the last hour or two of them wasn't exactly my best work.

[Ruger]

My point is that exhausted staff officers aren't as capable as well rested ones, and that rumble seats aren't cockpit seats designed for long term occupancy.  I've pulled more than one 30 hour day, and can attest that the last hour or two of them wasn't exactly my best work.

Agreed. But something like this shouldn’t take that long. Nowhere near that long.

You hot drop, truck it to the setup site, and dismount for setup.

Ruger

[Daryk]

Set up is the just the first part of the battle... any fight one of these things is being deployed for will certainly last longer than a few hours.  At some point, that first team is going to need to sleep and eat.  You're looking at effectively two companies with rumble seats to get a full 24-hour rotation manned.  The only upside is that means you should also have a full 'mech company awake and alert 24/7 too.

[RifleMech]

Was about a C3 Master, not a command console.

This is invalidated by the need to have ground personnel to man and deploy the collapsible command module. Something has to transport those people and it can't be a 'Mech. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If the Cyclops goes somewhere that the staff car can't follow, the CCM is useless. If the Cyclops sticks close to the staff car, it forfeits the go-anywhere benefits of being a 'Mech. If you're going to hobble yourself by dragging around a dedicated staff vehicle, you may as well utilize the dedicated Mobile HQ, which can use its full capabilities on the move and is reasonably well protected.

The only case where I can see the CCM making logistical sense is in the bizarre case of a dedicated regimental headquarters 'Mech company, where all 12 MechWarriors plus an additional number of cockpit ride-alongs are assigned to staff the command post when it's deployed. But by definition if you're using the CCM you're taking an entire company of precious BattleMechs out of service to do it, and you'd still be better off having a MHQ vehicle and using the 'Mechs as bodyguards for it.

Ah sorry. I would think for command a command console would be better.

Rumble seats. The legal way to do it. Or make mounting infantry compartments on mechs legal.

I'm not going to go digging through the books.  SCC's point, as I understood it, is that the Cyclops doesn't need the specialized 17 ton command unit, because the 5 ton command console gives it (and the unit it commands) a better bonus.

My point is even if that's the case, you can't look at a baseline Initiative bonus and say "this covers everything it does".

5 ton command consoles are no longer legal. Not that I'd complain if you wanted to use the old TacHandbook version. And while command consoles do have a bigger bonus, 7 tons of com Equipment do have a couple advantages.

[The_Caveman]

Set up is the just the first part of the battle... any fight one of these things is being deployed for will certainly last longer than a few hours.  At some point, that first team is going to need to sleep and eat.  You're looking at effectively two companies with rumble seats to get a full 24-hour rotation manned.  The only upside is that means you should also have a full 'mech company awake and alert 24/7 too.

Right. You're going to need 24 people just to man the HQ's communication and command stations round the clock, maybe 16 if you do a 4-shift rotation. Then there are all the other HQ staff roles: guards, meal prep (MREs are great and all, but cooked food is better for morale once you start planning for week-long battles), logistics bookkeeping, fire watch, so on and so forth. Even with most people wearing multiple hats you're going to need the 'Mech jocks out of their 'Mechs and staffing the command post at least part of the time.

It can be done, but it's far from the most efficient allocation of personnel. And carrying the module in the first place gimps the Cyclops considerably.

[Greatclub]

That cyclops is a large formation command unit. I wouldn't expect to see it in anything less than a battalion. That's enough rumble-seats for a bare-bones setup. Regiment? Doesn't even need to try hard to staff one.

The hard part would be moving one, cycling mechs through one by one to pick up passengers - though commandeered local vehicles might pick up the slack.

Specialized tool? Yep. It's not a army system, it's for the marines taking beaches, to use a parallel.

[RifleMech]

The CCM should probably be carried in an industrial mech only they didn't have those back then. Be that as it may, I don't think that Cyclops variant is meant to be charging off into the thick of battle. I feel its job is to carry the CCM and the guard it. If the commander does take it out its lack of weapons helps keep the commander out of the thick of things.

[Apocal]

Because the CCM's 7 tons of Com. Equipment gives it ECM and ECCM capabilities and ghost targets. Those are things the Cyclops can't do and they can only be used once the CCM is deployed.  The CCM can also monitor 6 more remote sensors than a BattleMech can.

Operating a CCM within ECM-range of the enemy is not a good plan, ghost targets or not. I suppose monitoring remote sensors is a double-blind thing but I have zero familiarity with remote sensor rules. Weirdo claimed he could think of two reasons to field a CCM over the quirked Cyclops, both rules- and fluff-wise, so I'm wondering what it could possibly be and coming up pretty short.

[The_Caveman]

That cyclops is a large formation command unit. I wouldn't expect to see it in anything less than a battalion. That's enough rumble-seats for a bare-bones setup. Regiment? Doesn't even need to try hard to staff one.

Spreading your command staff across an entire battalion to get them into the field because you want to avoid using a ground vehicle is just zany. What do you do when one of your companies drops off-course? Not to mention you have to waste valuable time getting every 'Mech in the battalion back to HQ any time you want to move camp.

If you need a mobile headquarters that can deploy directly from orbit, a spheroid Small Craft is a better fit and it can carry additional supplies too.

The collapsible command module just seems like one of those 1960s "world of tomorrow" ideas like the inflatable airplane or food pills--a neat (expensive) concept but ultimately an answer to a question that already had more cost-effective solutions.

[Greatclub]

The collapsible command module just seems like one of those 1960s "world of tomorrow" ideas like the inflatable airplane or food pills--a neat (expensive) concept but

They actually did some serious studies on nuclear powered aircraft too. I wouldn't be surprised to seen them come back in my lifetime.
http://energyfromthorium.com/pdf/ORNL-2536.pdf

ultimately an answer to a question that already had more cost-effective solutions.

Specialized tool, for when other solutions aren't viable. Best solution? Not really, but if it works, it wasn't entirely dumb. The star league was able to spend a mint on low-probability contingencies.