The Wolf Empire: Our Khan Beat Devlin Stone in a Savage Wolf! Buy Savage Wolves!

[Gaiiten]

In the new Shrapnel magazine is the article Secrets of the Sphere: The Cameron Question (article) - 3150.
This is interesting now shortly before they will publish ICLAN, they do an article about the old Star League ruling family.

Furthermore, the Wolves gave Clan Coyote the Winson bloodname, that of Jennifer Winson, who was maybe the last surviving member of the Cameron family.

[Wrangler]

In the new Shrapnel magazine is the article Secrets of the Sphere: The Cameron Question (article) - 3150.
This is interesting now shortly before they will publish ICLAN, they do an article about the old Star League ruling family.

Furthermore, the Wolves gave Clan Coyote the Winson bloodname, that of Jennifer Winson, who was maybe the last surviving member of the Cameron family.

I think what was largely forgotten was that a Cameron survivor married into prominent Rasalhague family and descendant married Theodore Kurita. 

[Auberan]

I think what was largely forgotten was that a Cameron survivor married into prominent Rasalhague family and descendant married Theodore Kurita.

That was, to the best of my knowledge, a forged ancestry created by Indrahar to keep Takashi from purging Theodore's family.

[CJC070]

That was, to the best of my knowledge, a forged ancestry created by Indrahar to keep Takashi from purging Theodore's family.

Considering no one has mentioned it since then I tend to agree, especially since Minoru had become a Nova Cat.  With that knowledge and proof, Clan Nova Cat would be a lot more dominant in the Inner Sphere.

[Sartris]

Smells like a red herring-scented smoke screen to me

[SteveRestless]

I do wonder if the Coyotes being the holders of the Winson Originals means that we will be reaching out to them once ilClan. Of the homeworld clans, they are the only one I would trust. They did well by us in our last days in the homeworlds.

[Deadborder]

Given that the Homeworld clans view those in the Inner Sphere as tainted traitors who were responsible for the near-destruction of Clan Society, that's unlikely at best. And given that the Wolves were seen as being responsible for the destruction of the Kerensky legacies and blood chapel...

[SteveRestless]

Did... Did you miss all the assistance the 'Yotes gave the wolves during their exit from the homeworlds? How a lot of the Wolves who helped do those things were themselves Coyotes up until they were traded to the Wolves?

[CJC070]

I do wonder if the Coyotes being the holders of the Winson Originals means that we will be reaching out to them once ilClan. Of the homeworld clans, they are the only one I would trust. They did well by us in our last days in the homeworlds.

When the Homeworlds do learn of the ilClan I thinks it will be more akin to an open conflict between the Inner Sphere Clans and the Homeworld Clans and everyone else in the middle.  They may also reinforce the Protomechs as a primary fighting vehicle due to the Homeworlds limited resources and recovery from the WoR.

[Colt Ward]

Worrying about a threat from the Home Worlds is a mirage Homies fans keep telling us about . . . with no evidence or even indication we will ever see those Clans again.  Sea Foxes are the traveled Clan and they are not preparing for the threat, the IS Clans have abandoned some of their more marginal periphery worlds- not even concerned about the Homies enough to maintain tripwires!

But I agree, the current Coyotes are what . . . 32 Clan 'generations' from the last Wolf-Coyote contact, the bond is dead.

[CJC070]

Worrying about a threat from the Home Worlds is a mirage Homies fans keep telling us about . . . with no evidence or even indication we will ever see those Clans again.  Sea Foxes are the traveled Clan and they are not preparing for the threat, the IS Clans have abandoned some of their more marginal periphery worlds- not even concerned about the Homies enough to maintain tripwires!

But I agree, the current Coyotes are what . . . 32 Clan 'generations' from the last Wolf-Coyote contact, the bond is dead.

Considering that the Oberon Confederation is being reformed without any overt Clan influence, I agree.  However it should be noted that most both Clan Sea Fox is trying to take over large portions of the Inner Sphere through trade and other Clans are expanding their holdings.  Sounds to me when the IClan does appear few will be able to oppose them except if the Homeworld Clans appear.

[SteveRestless]

Worrying about a threat from the Home Worlds is a mirage Homies fans keep telling us about . . . with no evidence or even indication we will ever see those Clans again. 

I think the big driver for the notion that the Homeworld Clans will invade and imperil the sphere is the April Fools Day Outline that Ben Rome did supposedly for ilClan that had the Homeclans do exactly that, conquering, smashing and absorbing Sphere clans to make the ilClan. But I think we can mostly consider that invalidated by Shattered Fortress.

But I agree, the current Coyotes are what . . . 32 Clan 'generations' from the last Wolf-Coyote contact, the bond is dead.

And we're how many generations out from the debt that the Scorpions felt towards Clan Wolf? Or the Annihilation of the Not Named? The Clans have long memories for the things they choose to recall, for things that make it into the mythos of a particular clan. While I acknowledge there is a decent chance that the bond has lapsed, I also think that the brotherhood between Wolf and Coyote, much as the brotherhood between Kerensky and Kerensky was ingrained enough in the mythology of those clans, that it COULD be perpetuated to this day.

[Sartris]

a home clan intervention on terra at this point would be a neat magic trick indeed.

but if the adders show up on the coreward border sometime in the next year after the events of shattered fortress, that would be unsurprising.

[Deadborder]

Did... Did you miss all the assistance the 'Yotes gave the wolves during their exit from the homeworlds? How a lot of the Wolves who helped do those things were themselves Coyotes up until they were traded to the Wolves?

Not at all.

But here's the thing. Let's say that the Homeworld Clans suddenly reappear in 3151. That means that it's been 75-odd years since the last contact between the Wolves and the Coyotes. Given the high turnover rates and truncated lifespans, there's not going to be anyone alive in either Clan who remembers when those bonds were current. The youngest sibkids from both Clans at the time of the WoR are going to be dead.

The last we saw of the Homeworld Clans in WoR and WoR:S made it abundantly clear what they though of the Inner Sphere Clans. They see them as being the Enemy, as being tainted and corrupted and being responsible for bringing mass destruction to the Clan homeworlds.

The Coyotes of the Homeworlds circa 3151 have been a part of that culture for numerous (Clan) generations. In many ways, they have it more so then the others, given that their existence is at the sufferance of the Star Adders, a fact that has been made abundantly clear. That the Coyotes discontinued their ProtoMech programs shows the degree that they tow the line.

And the Council of Six have also made it abundantly clear that they do not recognise the Homeworld clans as being Clan any more either. They are simply the Enemy, a group of impertinent upstarts who tried to destroy them out of pretty jealousy.

While yes, there was that long-standing debt between the Wolves and the Scorpions, that was under entirely different circumstances. That was one where the two clans co-existed alongside each other for generations. The circumstances between the post-Reavings Wolves and Coyotes are completely different. They're separated by physical space, time and a divide in their mutual philosophies that is likely irreconcilable.

[CJC070]

Not to mention who shares the blame for the Society depending on what has been passed down both sides might have blamed the other for the Uprising and hence the Wars of Reaving (wear the Coyotes were fried and barely alive).  Also if you think about it if the Homeworlds learn that Kerenskys line was preserved they may go all out believing it to either be to tainted to live or take all of it for themselves.

[Scotty]

The Coyotes were driven out of the Homeworlds into the Imperio Escorpion in the early 3100s.

[Sartris]

so who's even theoretically left? Cloud Cobras, Star Adders, and Stone Lions?

[CJC070]

Which sourcebook was this from (or is this an upcoming event)

[rebs]

No doubt, I'm wondering too.  It sounds awesome.

[Scotty]

There's a blurb in Campaign Operations about it.









No, that's not a joke, that's where it is.

[Deadborder]

Well there you go. That solves that then.

[rebs]

I don't know about you, but I really like the idea of the Coyotes roaming the galaxy at large.   I'm curious as to what's going on coreward, even more so than I usually am.

[CJC070]

It almost sounds like there will be two divergent paths.  The Deep Periphery path and the Inner Sphere Path.  It will be interesting when and how the Coyotes were kicked out and how it affects the rest of the Homeworld Clans

[Deadborder]

Whatever happened to them, it's clear that they didn't approach the Inner Sphere. Or if they did, the impact that they had was minimal.

[Wrangler]

The Coyotes were driven out of the Homeworlds into the Imperio Escorpion in the early 3100s.

Was that in Interstellar Expeditions?   ???

[Gaiiten]

There is a scenario in Campaign Operations.
However, I have understood that the Coyotes try to conquer the Imperio and so establishing a new life for them away from the Adders`s power.
There is not mentioned that the Coyotes were expulsed.

[Colt Ward]

 . . . the example campaign is about a player group creating a story?  "'Ben' is creating a campaign for his local players, who have decided to play a Periphery campaign as Clan Coyote warriors.  After some research, he decides to insert the players into the 3103 invasion of Navarre in the Escorpion Imperio."

Examples are not canon until they actually show up- each example scenario has Victor/Failure aftermaths, and appropriate 'next tracks' that we never see.  While 'Ben' might refer to the writer of Wars of Reaving, its not a canon scenario.  FREX, "'Chris' is creating his own story, running a Star League planetary invasion of the world of New Dallas."  On pg 143 under the Map Campaign examples.  'Brian' wants the Falcons to actually earn a win on Tukayyid, and so constructs that campaign.

[Sid]

. . . the example campaign is about a player group creating a story?  "'Ben' is creating a campaign for his local players, who have decided to play a Periphery campaign as Clan Coyote warriors.  After some research, he decides to insert the players into the 3103 invasion of Navarre in the Escorpion Imperio."

Examples are not canon until they actually show up- each example scenario has Victor/Failure aftermaths, and appropriate 'next tracks' that we never see.  While 'Ben' might refer to the writer of Wars of Reaving, its not a canon scenario.  FREX, "'Chris' is creating his own story, running a Star League planetary invasion of the world of New Dallas."  On pg 143 under the Map Campaign examples.  'Brian' wants the Falcons to actually earn a win on Tukayyid, and so constructs that campaign.

Speaking of Ben Rome, on his blog post detailing the original ilClan book, he answered a question asking if there had been any plans regarding the Home Clans.  He said he and Herb had originally intended the Home Clans to be portrayed as foils to the third Star League prior to its collapse.

Foils in Battletech usually go to war with each other, so my take away was an inverse Operation Revival where the Home Clans invade to break the Star League, rather than resurrect it- maybe in 3250.

But who knows what the plan is now that we're not doing the jump.

[Colt Ward]

With the Crusader Wolves creating the Griffin C (and Goliath C?), at a guess in the same vein as the Orion C & prob Goliath C, it raises the question of what chassis they based the conversion on . . .

Griffin -3M, -5M, -6S, -6S2 would IMO be the most likely candidates

Main Gun-
ERPPC/Gauss Rifle/ERPPC/ERPPC . . . the -5M gets the Clan Gauss for the weight of the Light, though would probably use the Clan/IS LRM weight differences for more Gauss ammo.  The ERPPC is easy to figure out the replacement being a Clan version which gets you another ton to play with in the design.

Missile Rack-
LRM20/LRM10/LRM15 & ArtIV/Clan LRM15
Converting them all to Clan versions lets you either increase ammo, add Artemis to designs that do not have it (3M/5M) Or for the -5M also gets the next rack size up while gaining a ton of Gauss ammo.  It is possible they would use a Streak system like the Orion C or a ATM system for range options.

Back Ups-
Small Laser/?/2 ERML/1 ERML
Harder here, it honestly depends on what you do with the two main weapons.

Armor-
No question here, I think the Wolves go with Ferro-Lam armor over Std or Clan FF- feeds into them being able to produce enough on their own to outfight Savage Wolves, Orion Cs, and other new designs that use the armor.

My vote would be for the -6S being used to upgrade to the C- the LFE gives it comparative robustness to Clan XLs.  I think this is interesting that the Wolves are getting their medium weight line mech by putting Clan weapons on IS built internals.  If the Griffin C uses the ERPPC basis of the build, the Crusader Wolves could also take the Shockwave factories and convert the line to a Shockwave C that is the medium gauss toting line mech.

What would you want to see as the Griffin C base- no design sheets (link'em) or radical changes please, as I said in the vein of Orion C & limited Goliath C description?


IF the Crusader Wolves had time to set up and build/refit mechs with Clan weapons for 2 chassis in each weight class . . . we MIGHT get a true Archer C instead of a Archer 2R C, or they call it a C2.  It would be easier to use the Crusader to avoid the underweight Archer C confusion.  Lights might end up with a Locust C that would be similar to the one the Crusaders were building before the Bears took the factory.  I think the Goliath C might be based around the Goliath 4S.  Besides the Goliath . . . maybe a Stalker C?

[SteveRestless]

There is ample time and distance, yes, that if the authors want the Coyotes to have forgotten and forsaken their bond with the Wolves, then it will make plenty of sense for it to be forgotten.

However, I maintain that it is entirely plausible, if the authors decided that they wanted the bond to be upheld, that the way clan culture works could see it remembered. Sibkos could be taught of the wolves as long lost brethren, if the coyotes wanted to perpetuate the idea. the legend could be upheld.

Hundreds of years have passed since the annihilation of the Not-Named, and yet, all people of the clans know what name not to say. The (awful) legend has been preserved, intentionally. The same could be done for good. Especially, if the Coyotes were feeling estranged from the other Home Clans.

As for that Example of dubious canonocity in CampOps, to which I already referred in this discussion, I was under the impression that it was a move to get room to grow, not because they had been forced from the homeworlds. But either way, they clearly aren't happy with the status quo in the homeworlds, if there's any canonocity to be had in those examples.