Author Topic: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?  (Read 20644 times)

Fnord

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Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« on: 20 March 2011, 15:42:19 »
In my group we are seeing a lot of close combat, in fact, in almost every game we play there will at least be a bit of kicking. Close combat seem to be deal quite a respectable amount of damage, in particular if you can get in behind the enemy mech, so that it can't hit you back. Kicking in particular seem to be quite powerful, as it is rather easy to hit, and standing bellow a hill seem to be an invitation for a "kick in the face" (which quite often is fatal). Is this a sign of my groups inexperience with the game, or is it how games usually end up?

mutantmagnet

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #1 on: 20 March 2011, 15:45:21 »
It's how battletech games remain a social experience. Playing the long range game is frowned upon because it eats up time and patience.

Until you effectively learn how to use certain spotting equipment like C3 and TAG you'll be fighting at close ranges for awhile.

Map choices also influence typical engagement ranges.

House Davie Merc

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #2 on: 20 March 2011, 15:54:43 »
3025 era -Most of our games wind up there sooner or later .
Especially if random tables are used and someone gets a mech
with poor firepower .

3050 +   -Tends to be the opposite for most of the games
I've been in .Only specialists like Axe wielders or 3Xmyomer users
try to close .To many long range weapons that cause fatal
damage are floating around .
The exceptions being those that are using level 1 /3025 tech against
the Clanners  and when the terrain limits range . (Like cities )

Wanderer

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #3 on: 20 March 2011, 19:39:49 »
People always asked me in 3025-era games why I'd love Archers, with their low amount of close-in firepower.

I always found a 70-tonner boot to the leg was more than enough to keep people respectable, since I usually out-armored most opponents in my weight class anyway. Plus, it was frequently enough to knock them down, which meant I could back up and resume hosing them with LRMs if so desired, or kick em while they're down!

Physical attacks are part and parcel of a 'Mech, and a reason why any pilot should be cautious about getting too close. Most 'Mechs lose their last "big gun" only when they can't kick or punch, and the DFA/charge is often the final resort of a machine that's about to die.

Ian Sharpe

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #4 on: 20 March 2011, 21:03:17 »
The kick is a fantastic weapon, since a successful one means a PSR regardless of the amount of damage.  But in 3025 things go to close range because many mechs don't have a lot of ammo for large LRM racks, and ML batteries can come into play, along with SRMs for crits and infernoes.  In later eras, pulse weapons, ER weapons, LBX and other options mean that closing range isn't always as necessary. 

Atlas3060

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #5 on: 20 March 2011, 21:20:49 »
Mostly the lighter 'mechs seem to kick in our group, just to see if they can make the big boys wobble before running away.
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #6 on: 20 March 2011, 21:33:38 »
In the 3025 era, the short ranges on most weapons and generally high to-hit numbers caused by those range brackets encourage you to close in unless you have Elite 'MechWarriors. Once you're in the 3-5 hex range, you might as well go all out, try to circle around behind your opponent, tuck in close, and so on.

In the 3050+ era, weapons ranges are longer and you can fit more of them (or use more of them) due to mass-lightening gear such as Endo Steel, Ferro-Fibrous, and Double Heat Sinks. This encourages you to stay at range, especially if you have Clan or more skilled pilots.
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #7 on: 20 March 2011, 23:47:22 »
People always asked me in 3025-era games why I'd love Archers, with their low amount of close-in firepower.

I always found a 70-tonner boot to the leg was more than enough to keep people respectable, since I usually out-armored most opponents in my weight class anyway. Plus, it was frequently enough to knock them down, which meant I could back up and resume hosing them with LRMs if so desired, or kick em while they're down!

Physical attacks are part and parcel of a 'Mech, and a reason why any pilot should be cautious about getting too close.

Yeah, a fellow Archer lover! Oh yeah, I like to keep my enemies at long range but when they do get under my LRM minimum range my Archers attack kicking and screaming. The 14-damage kick helps to make up for the poorer short-range firepower of most Archers.
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I am Belch II

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #8 on: 20 March 2011, 23:56:01 »
I would like to keep it the further the better. But sometimes you get mad becuase your to hit rolls are in the double digits.
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #9 on: 21 March 2011, 07:01:37 »
If your only playing on a couple of map boards the game will invariably devolve into close combat as there really isn't room to maneuver. Only when you use a bigger playing field can mobility and long range guns be used to their potential.

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Fnord

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #10 on: 21 March 2011, 09:54:24 »
We're mainly using <3039 mechs in our games, so that might be the cause, along with only using two maps. It will be interesting to see how my group reacts to larger maps, more mechs & better tech (if they still try to get up close and personal, even when things change).
 The reason why I created this thread was because games got a bit on the predictable side (although hitting someone with a death from above with a 70 ton grasshopper is quite satisfying).

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #11 on: 21 March 2011, 14:08:47 »
Playing on only two maps, even 'Mechs with 3/5 movement will be in physical combat before you know it. Heck, the opposing Urbies will be trading kicks fairly early!
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #12 on: 22 March 2011, 00:22:28 »
Mostly the lighter 'mechs seem to kick in our group, just to see if they can make the big boys wobble before running away.




when i play i dont kick with my light Mechs anymore because there is nothing more frustrating than having a light Mech miss its kick, Fall over and the turn after being at the mercy of its intended, and now angry, target

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #13 on: 22 March 2011, 06:26:10 »
Most fights devolve into close range slugfests mostly because battletech is a game, not a simulation.  When you're playing it more as a campaign (with repair rules and something like a real scarcity of parts and replacements), you get a lot less jumpy about close range fighting. 
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #14 on: 22 March 2011, 09:38:39 »
Campaign-style play are a definite game-changer; but I have to say that the size of the battlefield is also a huge factor.  Another way to keep some fights from degenerating to a melee is to use scenarios with objetives beyond simply pounding one another to scrap metal with some squishy bits. 

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #15 on: 22 March 2011, 09:46:35 »
Most fights devolve into close range slugfests mostly because battletech is a game, not a simulation.  When you're playing it more as a campaign (with repair rules and something like a real scarcity of parts and replacements), you get a lot less jumpy about close range fighting.

See..this has never been my experience. I have always seen my players go MORE aggressive in Campaign play, to finish the fights
quickly, so they do not have to have as much repairs, and, if they can take out that enemy mech with more of it
intact, then salvage is a bonus.
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #16 on: 22 March 2011, 10:13:11 »
Generally people close because the shoots are easier at shorter range. And it makes sense to go for the easy shots unless you are an ac 2 carrier.

And its a good way to use fast lights and mediums. Getting a little extra damage and the chance of a fall over roll with a kick.
Or a headslap with a punch is always welcome.
It can turn smaller mechs with two arms into very credible threats


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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #17 on: 22 March 2011, 10:39:42 »
I tend to dive into close combat (if I feel I have the advantage) because its decisive and quick.  If I want someone off an objective, getting right in their face is the only way to do it promptly.  Left to my own devices my mechs would indeed have bayonets fitted.   }:)

Skirmishing at range has its uses, but its sloooooow and can quite easily achieve nothing. 

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #18 on: 22 March 2011, 22:46:35 »
A lot of the newer player just believe in the "Charge" fight, get as close, and Alpha Strike everything. A lot of tatics and strategy is not really there. In a open field, or terrain like that, no battle should be like that.
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Atlas3060

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #19 on: 22 March 2011, 22:57:21 »



when i play i dont kick with my light Mechs anymore because there is nothing more frustrating than having a light Mech miss its kick, Fall over and the turn after being at the mercy of its intended, and now angry, target
Light Mechs have the MP to get up and put distance/movement mods on them.  If I drop my chunky Atlas rear on the ground the best I can do is get up and scream "Come at me bro".  A Locust could fall, get up, and run away screaming "You remember nothing!"
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #20 on: 22 March 2011, 23:28:36 »
A lot of the newer player just believe in the "Charge" fight, get as close, and Alpha Strike everything. A lot of tatics and strategy is not really there. In a open field, or terrain like that, no battle should be like that.

They tend to get broken of that when the vet players use terrain, and damage arcs to their advantage. You would be amazed
how many times I have seen a newer player look confused when I present one side or the other a 'mech to them so they are
hitting on fresher armour, or when I use partial cover, so about half the hits actually hit nothing.
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #21 on: 23 March 2011, 01:31:00 »
In my group we are seeing a lot of close combat, in fact, in almost every game we play there will at least be a bit of kicking. Close combat seem to be deal quite a respectable amount of damage, in particular if you can get in behind the enemy mech, so that it can't hit you back. Kicking in particular seem to be quite powerful, as it is rather easy to hit, and standing bellow a hill seem to be an invitation for a "kick in the face" (which quite often is fatal). Is this a sign of my groups inexperience with the game, or is it how games usually end up?

It's one of the many reasons I liked the old base-to-hit physical attack system.  It understood that a kick or a punch is basically a free attack and is pretty powerful plus there was more risk behind the kick.  Kicks do high damage and can knock the enemy on the ground while punches can tenderize the inside of a 'Mech's cockpit.  Long before TW, my gaming group and I made a house rule that took the difference in piloting and added that to the base to hit.  So if you're a 2 pilot against a 5 pilot, calculate a kick normally, then apply a -3 modifier.

Although, with either system, I actually prefer playing the range game.  What I mean is, if I have LRM's and my enemy has a Large Laser, you will find me in the magic 7 hex outside of the large's arc.  When it's a good opportunity I'll close in and do a kick or punch...  usually a punch to knock a pilot out.
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #22 on: 23 March 2011, 02:27:46 »
"Always take the high ground! That way you can kick their heads off!"
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Fnord

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #23 on: 23 March 2011, 07:53:38 »
That is a nice picture. How did the poor T-bolt fare? Also, I'm seeing a lot of infantry & tanks in that picture. It is nice to see people use those unsung heroes (they never seem to get any credit when I read about how people play B-tech)

Quote
They tend to get broken of that when the vet players use terrain, and damage arcs to their advantage. You would be amazed
how many times I have seen a newer player look confused when I present one side or the other a 'mech to them so they are
hitting on fresher armour, or when I use partial cover, so about half the hits actually hit nothing.
My group is quite fond of partial cover, which might be one of the reasons why it often ends in close combat. It is quite frustrating to see all those "hits" do nothing, in particular against quad mechs, so people will just run up and kick a mech after a while. Using hit archs properly might be something that we have to work on though.

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #24 on: 23 March 2011, 08:30:45 »
A lot of the newer player just believe in the "Charge" fight, get as close, and Alpha Strike everything. A lot of tatics and strategy is not really there. In a open field, or terrain like that, no battle should be like that.

I believe there is a place for it even in the open field.  But your right that not every battle should devolve into a Melee.  If your going to charge you need to pick your moment.

I kinda like the 'official' DC approach of maneuver and skirmish until you have the enemy where you want them, then finish them with an all out charge.  (In contrast to the unofficial DC approach of simply launching an all out charge at the drop of a hat)

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #25 on: 23 March 2011, 11:07:44 »
See..this has never been my experience. I have always seen my players go MORE aggressive in Campaign play, to finish the fights
quickly, so they do not have to have as much repairs, and, if they can take out that enemy mech with more of it
intact, then salvage is a bonus.

Also, it's been my experience that the best way to get useful salvage is to destroy a leg on a mech.  One really good way to do that is to connect on kick.

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #26 on: 23 March 2011, 13:53:59 »
Close range combat is fairly typical of 'Mech engagements because of how atrocious to hit rolls are in the game. Long range damage doesn't mean a lick if it isn't hitting the opposition with any sort of reliability. Weapon attacks made at close range and physical attacks connect significantly more often than weapon attacks made at long range. Additionally, weapons optimized for close range attacks tend to deliver more damage per ton and per heat point than weapons optimized for long range attacks.

Seems like a no brainer to me.
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #27 on: 24 March 2011, 15:11:13 »
In BV-based games, betting on close combat is often more cost-effective. A BV-cheap poorly armed mechs that have good enough armor still can kick (and are often viewed as "kick delivery vehicles"). Also, there's a plenty of good cheap close range brawlers, but not so much cheap long-range platforms, especially if you are playing with additional limitations that discourage Clan LPL spamming.

Also, bad things sometimes happen - for example, you can loose initiative for several turns in a row. For an LRM platform like an Archer which tries to keep enemies at range this can be a difference between life and death. For a close-range brawler - not that much, you are prepared for those close-ups.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a long time Hellbringer fan myself, and I do like the extreme of using range/terrain/mobility as an armor. But it's much safer to use a hulking close range brawler =).

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #28 on: 30 March 2011, 19:12:39 »
I will often have my above average skilled pilots in mechs with longer ranged weapons supporting their less skilled comrades in mechs with medium and close ranged weapons.  Although I do prefer shy away from slow mechs that only have close ranged weapons like the Hunchback, unless I do not have a choice.  I will accept a mech with close ranged weapons if it can rapidly close with the enemy.

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #29 on: 30 March 2011, 19:28:11 »
Battles should be ended by your artillery.  8)  If you don't have that, use your rifles to make the enemy keep their heads down while you flank, or close with a grenade. 

The way I see it, the range weapons in BTech are for controlling the fire lanes while the Hunchback, SRM carrier etc.  close with the deathdealing weapons.  Use long range snipers to keep the enemy where you want him, because the knockout punch (figuratively or literally) will come from up close more often than not.

Also, I agree with what's already been said, average damage output generally rises the closer you get to your target, hence the tendency to close.
« Last Edit: 30 March 2011, 19:42:18 by Legion »

AnubisZombie

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #30 on: 01 April 2011, 03:23:06 »
My typical pickup lance for woods and cities starts with 2 TiTiAngs and a Devastator.... most people seem to take offence at the 2 6/9/6 TSM hatchet mechs. You gotta use two cause one will always die. That's a fact. Then that last one is usually good for 2 mechs if you can you their speed to spread the enemy out good enough whilst still pooring it on with the Devastator.

My merc regiment has 14 hatchet mechs from LCAF, AFS, DCMS, LAAF, forgot the 2 bucanneers and 2 black knights, thats 5 factions  ??? This agrivates some people but it really doesn't make any sense to deploy them piece meal on the regimental level.
« Last Edit: 01 April 2011, 03:28:03 by AnubisZombie »

StoneRhino

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #31 on: 05 April 2011, 11:37:27 »
3025 era -Most of our games wind up there sooner or later .
Especially if random tables are used and someone gets a mech
with poor firepower .

3050 +   -Tends to be the opposite for most of the games
I've been in .Only specialists like Axe wielders or 3Xmyomer users
try to close .To many long range weapons that cause fatal
damage are floating around .
The exceptions being those that are using level 1 /3025 tech against
the Clanners  and when the terrain limits range . (Like cities )

 I have to second this. 3025/3039 games are most likely to end up in hand to hand. It is easy to hit as mentioned by the OP, punching is great for trying for a head shot and kicking can leave a target laid out on the ground. The last 3025 game I played, the first round of attacks actually had me kicking a friend's mech's leg clean off.

3050+ games never saw many physical attacks unless someone baited the other into it, or someone is running a melee weapon using mech. We closed the gaps, but things died a lot faster and rarely did not melee weapon equipped mechs or a trap would lead to a physical attack outside of the last few units. Yet the last 3025 game saw me closing for physical attacks then trying to break away and avoid physical attacks since they didn't serve my plan anymore.

I was thinking about this the other night for a second. It all comes down to the longer ranged weapons available in 3050+ games, the higher damage output of units due to weight savings from construction options, such as endo, xl engines, and double heatsinks. The damage output of modern mechs increased, yet the defenses didn't increase as dramatically or even on equal footing. Lets face it, ECM and AMSes mean nothing when getting hammered by guass rifles. More armor points per ton of armor means nothing when you can't exceed the old limitations on armor points per location. IS XL engines also accounted for many kills as you no longer had to core the mech or blow the head off, just take off a side torso. What it all boils down to is you are playing with more firepower with less effective "armor".

Of course, if the players are looking at physical attacks as being the best attacks in the game then they are going to rush at each other, closing the gap quicker. Want to break that up in any era? Throw down some AC20s. Blasting parts off when they are ooohhh so close to getting into physical attack range should do something to break up their desire to get in close for a round of rock'em sock'em robots.

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #32 on: 05 April 2011, 15:49:02 »
Inevitably they will, as those long range missile racks, gauss rifles etc run out of ammo, or the enemy just closes in.
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #33 on: 06 April 2011, 00:48:08 »
In my 3025 games it always ends up close in personal. Which is understandable considering when 3050 comes around and you now have 15pt headhunters flying around out to 22 hexes. I'm sure we've all seen games where someone gets graped on the first round of fire. Also had the same player drop a mech with the first shot from his LB10x twice now... oh those cluster munitions.
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #34 on: 06 April 2011, 09:52:42 »
It's an effect of ranged weapons not being lethal enough out to longer ranges. If you could consistently kill beyond 6 hexes, then you would. But we can't, so we don't. Ranged supporting fires aren't lethal enough to keep an enemy's heads down or to pin an enemy from advancing. Wellington's fires broke advancing French units through volume of fire, but mechs are survivable enough to weather fires as they advance and still be capable of dealing lethal damage when they get within kicking range. Perhaps it would be better to say that mech armor is too resilient to allow ranged combat and fires to be more effective than shock.

In any event, shock attacks will continue to dominate mech tactics until either weapons damage and accuracy gets high enough to kill mechs regularly with single shots (an event that will make Battletech a less-fun game to play).

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #35 on: 06 April 2011, 10:39:35 »
Point blank combat is fun. All there is to it.  ;D

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #36 on: 06 April 2011, 11:01:17 »
Well, the basic aesthetic of the game is giant metal avatars of war duking it out at distances where both sides can easily tell what effects their respective hits have on the other with the naked eye -- not 'Mech snipers reliably scoring purely sensor-guided one-shot-kills on each other from miles away. So, yeah, close combat by any modern standard would seem to be pretty much the order of the day, and if that sometimes means getting so close that one warrior could theoretically spit into the other's cockpit, then that's only part of the game as well.

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #37 on: 06 April 2011, 17:30:21 »
Talking about the campaign angle - depending on salvage rights, taking out a few Mechs due to loss of legs can be a good deal for mercs.  Especially since most people will give up after their Mech's been crippled and not fight to the death.  Unless you're the Bot in MM of course!    :)

StoneRhino

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #38 on: 06 April 2011, 23:04:02 »
The funny thing is that a 3025 game, if I was trying to close to physical attack range, rarely did it feel like a massive risk. I rarely felt that the mech wouldn't make it in for at least one attack. It might not live for a second attack, but the first attack generally seemed highly possible. In a 3050+ game it always seemed like a suicide rush, that it would be lucky if it could close for a single attack before being blasted to bits.

The ranges that the fights start out at sets the tone for physical combat. The closer you have to be for your weapons to start hitting, the easier it is to rush the other side. That doesn't really mean that 3025 games are always going to be easy to close while 3050 games are always difficult. Pulse lasers, targeting computers, LBX cannons,C3, and longer ranged weapons that make for easier hits can make average pilots equal to elites of 3025 games. if you ran with elite pilots in 3025 games and used the extreme range rules, theres a decent chance that the physical attack phase wouldn't be used as often.

Belisarius

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #39 on: 07 April 2011, 04:00:19 »
All that's true StoneRhino, but we've also gotten better about special munitions like smoke rounds, and increased average unit speeds (and hence TMMs), and the use of ECM including stealth and null signature systems. The weapons have indeed gotten more lethal, but with an appropriate set of counters, it's possible to mitigate that higher risk and still effectively close with your assault units. The Ti T'sang and Thunderbolt60RLA are great examples of shock over fires. Do they need some ranged support to close? Yeah, probably. But they can close quickly, particularly for heavies, and can throw some wicked short range combat power when they get there.

GespenstM

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #40 on: 07 April 2011, 06:49:07 »
As others have said, close combat tends to be somewhat era reliant. It can also be play-style dependent. As a Free Worlds League splinter-states player, I personally believe close combat is icky and has cooties. My machines just don't get tons of armor backed by twin ERPPCs or HPPCs and a sub-weapons array of exactly enough medium or ER medium lasers to take advantage of 16 double heatsinks. So I have to keep my distance.

With units like the PXH-7K, Hercules, various 4/6/4 movement units, and so on... I can usually keep at Medium range and land a reasonable number of hits to end a game in a reasonable time frame. If I do close to brawl, it's with units built for it; Black Knight, Anvil series, Grand Titan series, etc. Now, if the enemy is hellbent on getting close to my normal units, it will happen; no way I can prevent it for more than a few rounds. But I should have shot off enough armor from them by then to be able to take them on in close combat.

StCptMara

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #41 on: 07 April 2011, 09:47:24 »
And, amusingly, despite my being a Clan player....I like infighting, close up, city fighting, physical combat, etc.
One of the more interesting games I remember was: I was given an Albatross, and killed 4 other 'mechs before going
down...mostly with physical combat in a city.(Taken down, BTW, due to side torso destruction). But..well, my motto is
"It's an assault 'mech...what do assault 'mechs do? They assault!"
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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #42 on: 07 April 2011, 10:04:35 »
In my opinion, some of the most effective 'Mechs in the game are those that can close and do nasty infighting damage, but don't NEED to.  When you're either forced to close, or forced to avoid closure, then the opponent can dictate at least part of the battle on his terms, and you don't have any other option.

'Mechs such as the Hatchetman aren't armored to handle a ranged exchange, even if they have a decent gun to use for the purpose.  Their sole purpose is to get "in your face", and the opponent knows it the moment the figure appears on the board.

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #43 on: 07 April 2011, 20:51:36 »
In my experience, the single most common factor for close combat ranges in BT is mapsheet count; if you only use 1-2 (maybe 4) maps, you will eventually end up in close range.

OTOH, if you use many maps, maneuvering is possible and ranges tend to be longer. Unit speed, scenario needs and other factors influence ranges, but hands down, simply not having enough maps laid down in the #1 reason for regular slugfests.

StoneRhino

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #44 on: 09 April 2011, 10:17:42 »
All that's true StoneRhino, but we've also gotten better about special munitions like smoke rounds, and increased average unit speeds (and hence TMMs), and the use of ECM including stealth and null signature systems. The weapons have indeed gotten more lethal, but with an appropriate set of counters, it's possible to mitigate that higher risk and still effectively close with your assault units. The Ti T'sang and Thunderbolt60RLA are great examples of shock over fires. Do they need some ranged support to close? Yeah, probably. But they can close quickly, particularly for heavies, and can throw some wicked short range combat power when they get there.

The problem with that is they are extra tonnage which reduces your damage output. The same goes with larger engines, or the larger engines end up being XLs which reduces your ability to take as much of a beating as a standard engine mech. Also, unless your entire force is rushing, the ones that are trying to close to physical attack range are going to be facing a lot of the force the other side can put out on his own, not just the long range weapons that are now going to get short ranged shots, but also the medium and short ranged guns, anti-mech attacks from any battle armor in addition to mech physical attacks. ECM means nothing to a lot of weapons and smoke rounds within the ranks of the targets can be swing against you just as quickly as it swung in your favor.

Not sure about you, but we started using just about everything out of Maxtech back in what...1997? Nothing is really new in the core rules books today that wasn't around in some form back then. We all used most of the gear and I always tried to squeeze the most out of everything to piss the others off by pulling off something they weren't ready for. Even with all the extras in the game getting into physical attack range post 3050 is still significantly more risky then 3025 games. If the other guys are letting you pull physical attacks off for more then one round, and doing so in your games with some consistency, chances are the other guys just aren't doing things right.

At one point two of my friends were using walking bombs, basically stripped down light mechs packing XXL engines with heavy small lasers. Their goal was to rush up to pointblank range, fire off their heavy small lasers and self destruct their light mech. Those things had nasty target movement mods. Forget physical attacks, that crap was nasty! Then there were my favorite example against those that hate LAMS, which was clan LAMS(yes as wrong as it was for them) with TSM + the old school maces. Not just double the damage, but quadruple damage, IIRC. We got forced to work as hard as possible to stay the hell away from units that were rushing into physical attack range, heck, within blast radius of a walking bomb of a mech. I would have welcomed a hatchet wielding mech out of a TRO!

In the end it is possible to get into physical attack range, but the life expectancy should never be more then two rounds unless the controlling player commits to physical attacks late in the game when the bulk of his forces are not to far back. The problem I have seen with that is the longer the wait on those physical attacks, the less they impact the game. I'm not against them, heck I am trying to build a hatchet lance of minis just for the heck of it. Kind of similar to an AC20 carrying mech, its not always going to do damage, but when it does, its going to hurt like hell. If it doesn't, it also did its job by distracting the other player and soaking damage that would have otherwise been thrown at my other units instead.

The funny thing is that the most obnoxious hatchet mech I played against was the Cerebus, I think thats the name, the light mech with a hatchet. It was used against a light mech of mine, which is a sure way to get on my bad side. [tickedoff] hahahah... ;D

Belisarius

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #45 on: 10 April 2011, 06:02:36 »
I usually use random maps from megamek and, in most cases, there's enough masking terrain to get me within weapons' range before the enemy has had a chance to shoot at me. I generally play around the company level on 9 or 16 maps and have the respective sides approaching each other from opposite map corners. Usually you can find at least one or two map boards in that list that offer great hiding spots, so I pick my route to that area in such a way as to prevent the enemy from being in weapon range until after I'm masked by said good terrain. Then you weave your way in close (as in, within 9 hexes or so) using the good terrain as cover, and you jump into short weapons range. At that point, your melee attacks become a viable source of damage, as all the combat is taking place under 3 hexes (9 - X where X = your movement).

Now I don't disagree with your points in bad (read open) terrain. In a salt flat, ranged weapons will rule. But in the current game I'm playing against the bot, I have 9 boards with a city map in the bottom center and middle right masking my troops from the bot's (bot approaching from the SE while I'm approaching from the NW). The city boards let me tighten the ranges down to under 6 hexes. Now in this case, I don't have any true melee mechs (1x MAD9M2 and 3x FS9OBs w/ ArrowIV support  [rockon]) but the same rules apply. Careful use of the terrain allows me to get under short range before the enemy has fired a shot.

And I think you're thinking of the Scarabus, which is indeed a frustrating little light mech. A battery of lasers, hatchet, ECM, TAG, and just freakish speed make him a hard nut to crack. Unless you happen to have mines, overwhelming fires, or the stupidity of its pilot on your side.

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #46 on: 10 April 2011, 06:48:50 »
Part of playing the game is also knowing your chances with the dice.  Essentially, an inexperienced player will close no matter what era you're playing or how good a certain 'mech's pilot is just so he can have a higher chance of getting a hit.  A more experienced player will play a bit differently to try and maximize his to-hit potential while minimizing his opponent's.

Example: I have an Enforcer with a regular pilot against a Hunchback in the 3025 era.  I'm not hitting anything at medium range with my large laser or AC/10 and so I close to short while doing my best to stay at 4 or 5 hexes.  That works well until terrain or simple bad luck get the better of me and the Hunchback closes.  Slugging match with an AC/20 to the face.

Take the same scenario, but give the Enforcer a veteran pilot.  Suddenly, a lot of those to-hit numbers at medium range are now 7s instead of 8s.  Because 7 is the number with the greatest chance to role on two dice, I've drastically increased my chances of a successful hit and I'm staying at medium range within 8-10 hexes away from my opponent.  I'm at his long range, plus I have room to maneuver if he tries to close in.  An inexperienced player may try to close anyway, but a player with some knowledge of to-hit modifiers and dice rolls will do his best to maintain distance.

At least, that's the way I see it.  If you are giving your players chance to improve their pilots' skills, Fnord, then hopefully they'll catch on.

garhkal

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #47 on: 10 April 2011, 17:29:32 »
In my opinion, some of the most effective 'Mechs in the game are those that can close and do nasty infighting damage, but don't NEED to.  When you're either forced to close, or forced to avoid closure, then the opponent can dictate at least part of the battle on his terms, and you don't have any other option.

'Mechs such as the Hatchetman aren't armored to handle a ranged exchange, even if they have a decent gun to use for the purpose.  Their sole purpose is to get "in your face", and the opponent knows it the moment the figure appears on the board.

Very true..  A mech with a hatchet calls out "STAY AWAY" but there are many other designs that can do equal or greater damage up close..
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Lyran Archer

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #48 on: 10 April 2011, 18:37:38 »
In my opinion, some of the most effective 'Mechs in the game are those that can close and do nasty infighting damage, but don't NEED to.  When you're either forced to close, or forced to avoid closure, then the opponent can dictate at least part of the battle on his terms, and you don't have any other option.

This is why I like my Archer 5Ws. They have the armor and firepower for long range combat but in the last few games I've played with them, they have been very effective at short range as well: two SRM 4s each are great crit seekers and a 14-point kick can be very effective as well.
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Silver Sasquatch

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #49 on: 10 April 2011, 22:42:08 »
As suggested, objectives other than stand up fights can break up the mobs. 
Linking senarios will give players incentives to build up their pilots rather than pulp their mechs (as they will have to repair them). 
Groups i've played with have often used better than average pilots.  The high TNs that come with 4/5 pilots make physicals appealing (as stated), but 3/4 with a few 2/3s thrown in will make staying at range  not only bearable, but open up tactical options other than "close and boot".
Plus better pilots move things along, you can go bigger games or finish a game in a single evening (even with the BSing and story telling).
I've always enjoyed the random pilots generation charts, even when I rolled up a 5/6 pilot it was fun to build a pilot up.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2011, 22:59:36 by Silver Sasquatch »

sketchesofpayne

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #50 on: 11 April 2011, 13:39:31 »
We don't end up in close combat very often.  I think it is because our mechs never run around solo.  They always have a wingman or two.  So running up to a guy to kick him means you're going to take an alpha-strike of short range firepower from two or more mechs.

We're playing a Mercenary campaign in 3028.  The majority of the merc pilots are veteran at this point; that may be a factor as well.
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doulos05

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #51 on: 11 April 2011, 20:17:12 »
I've heard larger maps = less close combat. One one hand, I can see that because obviously if you've got a company on company brawl on a standard map, it's going to end up in close combat (FYI: that was hyperbole, I'd never actually do a company v company brawl on a single mapsheet. I bolded that so people won't miss it, now you guys can feel free to miss it intentionally). But, I've heard stories of massive battles, like company v company on 5x5 or larger mapsheets. It seems to me you'd get drastically diminished returns once you got past about 3x3, but then the folks I heard of doing that were also professional military and they always seem to use more space than amateurs like myself.
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

A. Lurker

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #52 on: 12 April 2011, 01:12:21 »
But, I've heard stories of massive battles, like company v company on 5x5 or larger mapsheets. It seems to me you'd get drastically diminished returns once you got past about 3x3, but then the folks I heard of doing that were also professional military and they always seem to use more space than amateurs like myself.

Maybe they know something we don't? ;)

We don't end up in close combat very often.  I think it is because our mechs never run around solo.  They always have a wingman or two.  So running up to a guy to kick him means you're going to take an alpha-strike of short range firepower from two or more mechs.

I'd also agree with this; larger encounters are just a wholly different ballgame from individual duels. You can get away with a bit more carelessness when facing only one opponent (maybe two), who might or might not land a lucky hit; giving an entire lance with nontrivial firepower the opportunity to concentrate fire on your machine is another story entirely. And since you're kind of forced to expose yourself in order to turn the fight close and personal...

doulos05

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #53 on: 12 April 2011, 02:40:31 »
Maybe they know something we don't? ;)
I think that's pretty much a given... One of my best friends where I live now is a simulations officer for the US Army, I'm trying to pick his brain as I have time to learn what on earth you use that extra space for, but as of now.... no real clue other than run around like crazy.
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

Belisarius

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #54 on: 12 April 2011, 06:53:26 »
Part of why one likes to see all the space is to select good ground. The terrain dictates much of the engagement (if used correctly). But if you don't have the room to maneuver around said terrain, then it frequently only works against you. Having the latitude to maneuver around the enemy, split his force, maneuver into blind spots, secure terrain from the enemy to narrow his options... all of that is critical to a good tactical plan. Ideally, you should be able to map out, before you even put pieces on the board, where your troops will establish support by fire positions, where your assault force will rally, how they will assault through the enemy (whose positions will become the objective as most of these games have destruction of the enemy force as the only goal), etc. Having room on the board makes it possible to do some of that maneuvering outside of weapons' range (minimizing your force's exposure to enemy fires).

Fnord

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #55 on: 12 April 2011, 07:15:38 »
Another advantage of spreading out is that it is a lot harder to actually circle around you, without spreading out too thin. It is also good for defending those sniper/LRM boats, who are vulnerable up close and personal.

Fear Factory

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #56 on: 12 April 2011, 15:01:12 »
I think the largest map setup I played on, IRL (not in megamek) was 3x4 or 3x3.  It was a pretty overwhelming game though...  10 vs 15 and it took two days (4 hour sessions).  We had pretty good mix of short, medium and long range combat going on.  Larger maps do help but IMO it makes for a much longer game.  MegaMek cuts this down a lot more by taking a lot of the burden off of you.

I actually prefer 2 maps together up to 2X3 IRL (with 2x2 being the most common).  Games are usually faster but still tactical.  All depends on scenario though.

No matter what size the maps are though we always ended up in "close combat."  More like using the magic 7 hex or playing the short/medium range brackets against one another.  We've taken some memorable long range shots though.  If the skills are better than 4 in gunnery then more long range shots happen because they can use the long range bracket more efficiently.

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Lyran Archer

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #57 on: 12 April 2011, 16:14:18 »
I like to play on 6 maps (2x3) and yet it still almost always ends up with some close combat fighting. A lot of 'Mechs race in because close combat is their best range or because they are trying to get under the minimum range of an opponent's weapon (everyone charges my Archer lances to get under the minimums of my LRM 20s).

Even in warfare today, overrunning the enemy position is often a goal and that does require close combat. 
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Demon55

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #58 on: 12 April 2011, 17:31:19 »
I usually play on 5X5 or 6X6 maps on megamek so there is a lot of manuever.  Most combat is long to medium ranged in my games and often mechs with limited medium or long ranged firepower get shot up pretty quickly as they try to close.

Hellraiser

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #59 on: 30 April 2011, 13:41:35 »
In my group we are seeing a lot of close combat, in fact, in almost every game we play there will at least be a bit of kicking. Close combat seem to be deal quite a respectable amount of damage, in particular if you can get in behind the enemy mech, so that it can't hit you back. Kicking in particular seem to be quite powerful, as it is rather easy to hit, and standing bellow a hill seem to be an invitation for a "kick in the face" (which quite often is fatal). Is this a sign of my groups inexperience with the game, or is it how games usually end up?
It is the nature of the game IMHO.
You can always run forward faster than the other guy can walk back.
Once you are in the 20+ hex engagement range its only a matter of time before that 20+ is teens & then under 9 & finally into physicals.
Map Size,  Terrain, & Speed of the units involved will obviously speed up or slow down this process but under "MOST" circumstances, yes, you close range over time.
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AnubisZombie

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #60 on: 01 May 2011, 13:31:48 »
I always looked at the small map standard engagements as the terrain you get pigeon holed into fighting on by whatever higher power is directing you're units. The other way I look at it is that due to the sheer crush of units on the field there is no room for the greater maneuver without running through other units battles. Leaving you with the meat grinder.

Add more maps and all of a sudden you can trick a lance into fighting a company in the small fight like a good general instead of like a bad general in the old senario books with a company per mapsheet goin all WWI nobodies commin home meatgrinder.

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #61 on: 01 May 2011, 14:08:02 »
I have a Company leader driving a Banshee 3E.  He puts it to good use getting into the thick of it, and two 10 point punches make him a habitual head-capper. I would like to get the AC-5 replaced with an AC-10, or something with more power, but I'm not complaining.

IMHO, you look at how the 'mech is built, and play to its strengths, obviously. YMMV.
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markhall

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #62 on: 01 May 2011, 15:42:07 »
That is a nice picture. How did the poor T-bolt fare? Also, I'm seeing a lot of infantry & tanks in that picture. It is nice to see people use those unsung heroes (they never seem to get any credit when I read about how people play B-tech)

The Leg was opened but it managed to get into the base.

We use tend to use a nice selection of units. I Prefer Mechs in my games. But the group as a whole uses most units.
We even have a regular protomech user.

markhall

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #63 on: 01 May 2011, 15:51:36 »
It is the nature of the game IMHO.
You can always run forward faster than the other guy can walk back.

Thats quite true.

Hellraiser

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #64 on: 01 May 2011, 18:07:15 »
I would like to get the AC-5 replaced with an AC-10, or something with more power, but I'm not complaining.
A very interesting option for those that  use the Banshee as a Brawler is to replace the PPC/AC5 w/ a LL/AC10 and reduce the Heatsinks.
Sure you loose 3 hexes at long range but the lack of minimums means you are able to keep pounding away at point blank while kicking & punching and you actually put out more firepower at range.
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saintbrandon

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #65 on: 03 May 2011, 15:30:07 »
My group and I are all new, only once was there any close combat, it was the very last dice roll in our last game...being new I was sitting on the board edge firing away with my hunchback, well to try the rules out my friend in his stinger(I think) death from aboved me right off the edge :S
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StCptMara

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Re: Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?
« Reply #66 on: 03 May 2011, 22:19:04 »
My group and I are all new, only once was there any close combat, it was the very last dice roll in our last game...being new I was sitting on the board edge firing away with my hunchback, well to try the rules out my friend in his stinger(I think) death from aboved me right off the edge :S

Ah, the joy of new players trying things out! Watch it! That guy is likely going to be very fond of that maneuvre now!
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