Close combat, is this where most mech fights end up?

[AnubisZombie]

My typical pickup lance for woods and cities starts with 2 TiTiAngs and a Devastator.... most people seem to take offence at the 2 6/9/6 TSM hatchet mechs. You gotta use two cause one will always die. That's a fact. Then that last one is usually good for 2 mechs if you can you their speed to spread the enemy out good enough whilst still pooring it on with the Devastator.

My merc regiment has 14 hatchet mechs from LCAF, AFS, DCMS, LAAF, forgot the 2 bucanneers and 2 black knights, thats 5 factions  ??? This agrivates some people but it really doesn't make any sense to deploy them piece meal on the regimental level.

[StoneRhino]

3025 era -Most of our games wind up there sooner or later .
Especially if random tables are used and someone gets a mech
with poor firepower .

3050 +   -Tends to be the opposite for most of the games
I've been in .Only specialists like Axe wielders or 3Xmyomer users
try to close .To many long range weapons that cause fatal
damage are floating around .
The exceptions being those that are using level 1 /3025 tech against
the Clanners  and when the terrain limits range . (Like cities )

 I have to second this. 3025/3039 games are most likely to end up in hand to hand. It is easy to hit as mentioned by the OP, punching is great for trying for a head shot and kicking can leave a target laid out on the ground. The last 3025 game I played, the first round of attacks actually had me kicking a friend's mech's leg clean off.

3050+ games never saw many physical attacks unless someone baited the other into it, or someone is running a melee weapon using mech. We closed the gaps, but things died a lot faster and rarely did not melee weapon equipped mechs or a trap would lead to a physical attack outside of the last few units. Yet the last 3025 game saw me closing for physical attacks then trying to break away and avoid physical attacks since they didn't serve my plan anymore.

I was thinking about this the other night for a second. It all comes down to the longer ranged weapons available in 3050+ games, the higher damage output of units due to weight savings from construction options, such as endo, xl engines, and double heatsinks. The damage output of modern mechs increased, yet the defenses didn't increase as dramatically or even on equal footing. Lets face it, ECM and AMSes mean nothing when getting hammered by guass rifles. More armor points per ton of armor means nothing when you can't exceed the old limitations on armor points per location. IS XL engines also accounted for many kills as you no longer had to core the mech or blow the head off, just take off a side torso. What it all boils down to is you are playing with more firepower with less effective "armor".

Of course, if the players are looking at physical attacks as being the best attacks in the game then they are going to rush at each other, closing the gap quicker. Want to break that up in any era? Throw down some AC20s. Blasting parts off when they are ooohhh so close to getting into physical attack range should do something to break up their desire to get in close for a round of rock'em sock'em robots.

[garhkal]

Inevitably they will, as those long range missile racks, gauss rifles etc run out of ammo, or the enemy just closes in.

[Grunt213]

In my 3025 games it always ends up close in personal. Which is understandable considering when 3050 comes around and you now have 15pt headhunters flying around out to 22 hexes. I'm sure we've all seen games where someone gets graped on the first round of fire. Also had the same player drop a mech with the first shot from his LB10x twice now... oh those cluster munitions.

[Belisarius]

It's an effect of ranged weapons not being lethal enough out to longer ranges. If you could consistently kill beyond 6 hexes, then you would. But we can't, so we don't. Ranged supporting fires aren't lethal enough to keep an enemy's heads down or to pin an enemy from advancing. Wellington's fires broke advancing French units through volume of fire, but mechs are survivable enough to weather fires as they advance and still be capable of dealing lethal damage when they get within kicking range. Perhaps it would be better to say that mech armor is too resilient to allow ranged combat and fires to be more effective than shock.

In any event, shock attacks will continue to dominate mech tactics until either weapons damage and accuracy gets high enough to kill mechs regularly with single shots (an event that will make Battletech a less-fun game to play).

[Auren]

Point blank combat is fun. All there is to it.  ;D

[A. Lurker]

Well, the basic aesthetic of the game is giant metal avatars of war duking it out at distances where both sides can easily tell what effects their respective hits have on the other with the naked eye -- not 'Mech snipers reliably scoring purely sensor-guided one-shot-kills on each other from miles away. So, yeah, close combat by any modern standard would seem to be pretty much the order of the day, and if that sometimes means getting so close that one warrior could theoretically spit into the other's cockpit, then that's only part of the game as well.

[rhino1085]

Talking about the campaign angle - depending on salvage rights, taking out a few Mechs due to loss of legs can be a good deal for mercs.  Especially since most people will give up after their Mech's been crippled and not fight to the death.  Unless you're the Bot in MM of course!    :)

[StoneRhino]

The funny thing is that a 3025 game, if I was trying to close to physical attack range, rarely did it feel like a massive risk. I rarely felt that the mech wouldn't make it in for at least one attack. It might not live for a second attack, but the first attack generally seemed highly possible. In a 3050+ game it always seemed like a suicide rush, that it would be lucky if it could close for a single attack before being blasted to bits.

The ranges that the fights start out at sets the tone for physical combat. The closer you have to be for your weapons to start hitting, the easier it is to rush the other side. That doesn't really mean that 3025 games are always going to be easy to close while 3050 games are always difficult. Pulse lasers, targeting computers, LBX cannons,C3, and longer ranged weapons that make for easier hits can make average pilots equal to elites of 3025 games. if you ran with elite pilots in 3025 games and used the extreme range rules, theres a decent chance that the physical attack phase wouldn't be used as often.

[Belisarius]

All that's true StoneRhino, but we've also gotten better about special munitions like smoke rounds, and increased average unit speeds (and hence TMMs), and the use of ECM including stealth and null signature systems. The weapons have indeed gotten more lethal, but with an appropriate set of counters, it's possible to mitigate that higher risk and still effectively close with your assault units. The Ti T'sang and Thunderbolt60RLA are great examples of shock over fires. Do they need some ranged support to close? Yeah, probably. But they can close quickly, particularly for heavies, and can throw some wicked short range combat power when they get there.

[GespenstM]

As others have said, close combat tends to be somewhat era reliant. It can also be play-style dependent. As a Free Worlds League splinter-states player, I personally believe close combat is icky and has cooties. My machines just don't get tons of armor backed by twin ERPPCs or HPPCs and a sub-weapons array of exactly enough medium or ER medium lasers to take advantage of 16 double heatsinks. So I have to keep my distance.

With units like the PXH-7K, Hercules, various 4/6/4 movement units, and so on... I can usually keep at Medium range and land a reasonable number of hits to end a game in a reasonable time frame. If I do close to brawl, it's with units built for it; Black Knight, Anvil series, Grand Titan series, etc. Now, if the enemy is hellbent on getting close to my normal units, it will happen; no way I can prevent it for more than a few rounds. But I should have shot off enough armor from them by then to be able to take them on in close combat.

[StCptMara]

And, amusingly, despite my being a Clan player....I like infighting, close up, city fighting, physical combat, etc.
One of the more interesting games I remember was: I was given an Albatross, and killed 4 other 'mechs before going
down...mostly with physical combat in a city.(Taken down, BTW, due to side torso destruction). But..well, my motto is
"It's an assault 'mech...what do assault 'mechs do? They assault!"

[Kovax]

In my opinion, some of the most effective 'Mechs in the game are those that can close and do nasty infighting damage, but don't NEED to.  When you're either forced to close, or forced to avoid closure, then the opponent can dictate at least part of the battle on his terms, and you don't have any other option.

'Mechs such as the Hatchetman aren't armored to handle a ranged exchange, even if they have a decent gun to use for the purpose.  Their sole purpose is to get "in your face", and the opponent knows it the moment the figure appears on the board.

[Fireangel]

In my experience, the single most common factor for close combat ranges in BT is mapsheet count; if you only use 1-2 (maybe 4) maps, you will eventually end up in close range.

OTOH, if you use many maps, maneuvering is possible and ranges tend to be longer. Unit speed, scenario needs and other factors influence ranges, but hands down, simply not having enough maps laid down in the #1 reason for regular slugfests.

[StoneRhino]

All that's true StoneRhino, but we've also gotten better about special munitions like smoke rounds, and increased average unit speeds (and hence TMMs), and the use of ECM including stealth and null signature systems. The weapons have indeed gotten more lethal, but with an appropriate set of counters, it's possible to mitigate that higher risk and still effectively close with your assault units. The Ti T'sang and Thunderbolt60RLA are great examples of shock over fires. Do they need some ranged support to close? Yeah, probably. But they can close quickly, particularly for heavies, and can throw some wicked short range combat power when they get there.

The problem with that is they are extra tonnage which reduces your damage output. The same goes with larger engines, or the larger engines end up being XLs which reduces your ability to take as much of a beating as a standard engine mech. Also, unless your entire force is rushing, the ones that are trying to close to physical attack range are going to be facing a lot of the force the other side can put out on his own, not just the long range weapons that are now going to get short ranged shots, but also the medium and short ranged guns, anti-mech attacks from any battle armor in addition to mech physical attacks. ECM means nothing to a lot of weapons and smoke rounds within the ranks of the targets can be swing against you just as quickly as it swung in your favor.

Not sure about you, but we started using just about everything out of Maxtech back in what...1997? Nothing is really new in the core rules books today that wasn't around in some form back then. We all used most of the gear and I always tried to squeeze the most out of everything to piss the others off by pulling off something they weren't ready for. Even with all the extras in the game getting into physical attack range post 3050 is still significantly more risky then 3025 games. If the other guys are letting you pull physical attacks off for more then one round, and doing so in your games with some consistency, chances are the other guys just aren't doing things right.

At one point two of my friends were using walking bombs, basically stripped down light mechs packing XXL engines with heavy small lasers. Their goal was to rush up to pointblank range, fire off their heavy small lasers and self destruct their light mech. Those things had nasty target movement mods. Forget physical attacks, that crap was nasty! Then there were my favorite example against those that hate LAMS, which was clan LAMS(yes as wrong as it was for them) with TSM + the old school maces. Not just double the damage, but quadruple damage, IIRC. We got forced to work as hard as possible to stay the hell away from units that were rushing into physical attack range, heck, within blast radius of a walking bomb of a mech. I would have welcomed a hatchet wielding mech out of a TRO!

In the end it is possible to get into physical attack range, but the life expectancy should never be more then two rounds unless the controlling player commits to physical attacks late in the game when the bulk of his forces are not to far back. The problem I have seen with that is the longer the wait on those physical attacks, the less they impact the game. I'm not against them, heck I am trying to build a hatchet lance of minis just for the heck of it. Kind of similar to an AC20 carrying mech, its not always going to do damage, but when it does, its going to hurt like hell. If it doesn't, it also did its job by distracting the other player and soaking damage that would have otherwise been thrown at my other units instead.

The funny thing is that the most obnoxious hatchet mech I played against was the Cerebus, I think thats the name, the light mech with a hatchet. It was used against a light mech of mine, which is a sure way to get on my bad side. [tickedoff] hahahah... ;D

[Belisarius]

I usually use random maps from megamek and, in most cases, there's enough masking terrain to get me within weapons' range before the enemy has had a chance to shoot at me. I generally play around the company level on 9 or 16 maps and have the respective sides approaching each other from opposite map corners. Usually you can find at least one or two map boards in that list that offer great hiding spots, so I pick my route to that area in such a way as to prevent the enemy from being in weapon range until after I'm masked by said good terrain. Then you weave your way in close (as in, within 9 hexes or so) using the good terrain as cover, and you jump into short weapons range. At that point, your melee attacks become a viable source of damage, as all the combat is taking place under 3 hexes (9 - X where X = your movement).

Now I don't disagree with your points in bad (read open) terrain. In a salt flat, ranged weapons will rule. But in the current game I'm playing against the bot, I have 9 boards with a city map in the bottom center and middle right masking my troops from the bot's (bot approaching from the SE while I'm approaching from the NW). The city boards let me tighten the ranges down to under 6 hexes. Now in this case, I don't have any true melee mechs (1x MAD9M2 and 3x FS9OBs w/ ArrowIV support  [rockon]) but the same rules apply. Careful use of the terrain allows me to get under short range before the enemy has fired a shot.

And I think you're thinking of the Scarabus, which is indeed a frustrating little light mech. A battery of lasers, hatchet, ECM, TAG, and just freakish speed make him a hard nut to crack. Unless you happen to have mines, overwhelming fires, or the stupidity of its pilot on your side.

[abou]

Part of playing the game is also knowing your chances with the dice.  Essentially, an inexperienced player will close no matter what era you're playing or how good a certain 'mech's pilot is just so he can have a higher chance of getting a hit.  A more experienced player will play a bit differently to try and maximize his to-hit potential while minimizing his opponent's.

Example: I have an Enforcer with a regular pilot against a Hunchback in the 3025 era.  I'm not hitting anything at medium range with my large laser or AC/10 and so I close to short while doing my best to stay at 4 or 5 hexes.  That works well until terrain or simple bad luck get the better of me and the Hunchback closes.  Slugging match with an AC/20 to the face.

Take the same scenario, but give the Enforcer a veteran pilot.  Suddenly, a lot of those to-hit numbers at medium range are now 7s instead of 8s.  Because 7 is the number with the greatest chance to role on two dice, I've drastically increased my chances of a successful hit and I'm staying at medium range within 8-10 hexes away from my opponent.  I'm at his long range, plus I have room to maneuver if he tries to close in.  An inexperienced player may try to close anyway, but a player with some knowledge of to-hit modifiers and dice rolls will do his best to maintain distance.

At least, that's the way I see it.  If you are giving your players chance to improve their pilots' skills, Fnord, then hopefully they'll catch on.

[garhkal]

In my opinion, some of the most effective 'Mechs in the game are those that can close and do nasty infighting damage, but don't NEED to.  When you're either forced to close, or forced to avoid closure, then the opponent can dictate at least part of the battle on his terms, and you don't have any other option.

'Mechs such as the Hatchetman aren't armored to handle a ranged exchange, even if they have a decent gun to use for the purpose.  Their sole purpose is to get "in your face", and the opponent knows it the moment the figure appears on the board.

Very true..  A mech with a hatchet calls out "STAY AWAY" but there are many other designs that can do equal or greater damage up close..

[Lyran Archer]

In my opinion, some of the most effective 'Mechs in the game are those that can close and do nasty infighting damage, but don't NEED to.  When you're either forced to close, or forced to avoid closure, then the opponent can dictate at least part of the battle on his terms, and you don't have any other option.

This is why I like my Archer 5Ws. They have the armor and firepower for long range combat but in the last few games I've played with them, they have been very effective at short range as well: two SRM 4s each are great crit seekers and a 14-point kick can be very effective as well.

[Silver Sasquatch]

As suggested, objectives other than stand up fights can break up the mobs. 
Linking senarios will give players incentives to build up their pilots rather than pulp their mechs (as they will have to repair them). 
Groups i've played with have often used better than average pilots.  The high TNs that come with 4/5 pilots make physicals appealing (as stated), but 3/4 with a few 2/3s thrown in will make staying at range  not only bearable, but open up tactical options other than "close and boot".
Plus better pilots move things along, you can go bigger games or finish a game in a single evening (even with the BSing and story telling).
I've always enjoyed the random pilots generation charts, even when I rolled up a 5/6 pilot it was fun to build a pilot up.

[sketchesofpayne]

We don't end up in close combat very often.  I think it is because our mechs never run around solo.  They always have a wingman or two.  So running up to a guy to kick him means you're going to take an alpha-strike of short range firepower from two or more mechs.

We're playing a Mercenary campaign in 3028.  The majority of the merc pilots are veteran at this point; that may be a factor as well.

[doulos05]

I've heard larger maps = less close combat. One one hand, I can see that because obviously if you've got a company on company brawl on a standard map, it's going to end up in close combat (FYI: that was hyperbole, I'd never actually do a company v company brawl on a single mapsheet. I bolded that so people won't miss it, now you guys can feel free to miss it intentionally). But, I've heard stories of massive battles, like company v company on 5x5 or larger mapsheets. It seems to me you'd get drastically diminished returns once you got past about 3x3, but then the folks I heard of doing that were also professional military and they always seem to use more space than amateurs like myself.

[A. Lurker]

But, I've heard stories of massive battles, like company v company on 5x5 or larger mapsheets. It seems to me you'd get drastically diminished returns once you got past about 3x3, but then the folks I heard of doing that were also professional military and they always seem to use more space than amateurs like myself.

Maybe they know something we don't? ;)

We don't end up in close combat very often.  I think it is because our mechs never run around solo.  They always have a wingman or two.  So running up to a guy to kick him means you're going to take an alpha-strike of short range firepower from two or more mechs.

I'd also agree with this; larger encounters are just a wholly different ballgame from individual duels. You can get away with a bit more carelessness when facing only one opponent (maybe two), who might or might not land a lucky hit; giving an entire lance with nontrivial firepower the opportunity to concentrate fire on your machine is another story entirely. And since you're kind of forced to expose yourself in order to turn the fight close and personal...

[doulos05]

Maybe they know something we don't? ;)

I think that's pretty much a given... One of my best friends where I live now is a simulations officer for the US Army, I'm trying to pick his brain as I have time to learn what on earth you use that extra space for, but as of now.... no real clue other than run around like crazy.

[Belisarius]

Part of why one likes to see all the space is to select good ground. The terrain dictates much of the engagement (if used correctly). But if you don't have the room to maneuver around said terrain, then it frequently only works against you. Having the latitude to maneuver around the enemy, split his force, maneuver into blind spots, secure terrain from the enemy to narrow his options... all of that is critical to a good tactical plan. Ideally, you should be able to map out, before you even put pieces on the board, where your troops will establish support by fire positions, where your assault force will rally, how they will assault through the enemy (whose positions will become the objective as most of these games have destruction of the enemy force as the only goal), etc. Having room on the board makes it possible to do some of that maneuvering outside of weapons' range (minimizing your force's exposure to enemy fires).

[Fnord]

Another advantage of spreading out is that it is a lot harder to actually circle around you, without spreading out too thin. It is also good for defending those sniper/LRM boats, who are vulnerable up close and personal.

[Fear Factory]

I think the largest map setup I played on, IRL (not in megamek) was 3x4 or 3x3.  It was a pretty overwhelming game though...  10 vs 15 and it took two days (4 hour sessions).  We had pretty good mix of short, medium and long range combat going on.  Larger maps do help but IMO it makes for a much longer game.  MegaMek cuts this down a lot more by taking a lot of the burden off of you.

I actually prefer 2 maps together up to 2X3 IRL (with 2x2 being the most common).  Games are usually faster but still tactical.  All depends on scenario though.

No matter what size the maps are though we always ended up in "close combat."  More like using the magic 7 hex or playing the short/medium range brackets against one another.  We've taken some memorable long range shots though.  If the skills are better than 4 in gunnery then more long range shots happen because they can use the long range bracket more efficiently.

[Lyran Archer]

I like to play on 6 maps (2x3) and yet it still almost always ends up with some close combat fighting. A lot of 'Mechs race in because close combat is their best range or because they are trying to get under the minimum range of an opponent's weapon (everyone charges my Archer lances to get under the minimums of my LRM 20s).

Even in warfare today, overrunning the enemy position is often a goal and that does require close combat. 

[Demon55]

I usually play on 5X5 or 6X6 maps on megamek so there is a lot of manuever.  Most combat is long to medium ranged in my games and often mechs with limited medium or long ranged firepower get shot up pretty quickly as they try to close.

[Hellraiser]

In my group we are seeing a lot of close combat, in fact, in almost every game we play there will at least be a bit of kicking. Close combat seem to be deal quite a respectable amount of damage, in particular if you can get in behind the enemy mech, so that it can't hit you back. Kicking in particular seem to be quite powerful, as it is rather easy to hit, and standing bellow a hill seem to be an invitation for a "kick in the face" (which quite often is fatal). Is this a sign of my groups inexperience with the game, or is it how games usually end up?

It is the nature of the game IMHO.
You can always run forward faster than the other guy can walk back.
Once you are in the 20+ hex engagement range its only a matter of time before that 20+ is teens & then under 9 & finally into physicals.
Map Size,  Terrain, & Speed of the units involved will obviously speed up or slow down this process but under "MOST" circumstances, yes, you close range over time.