General strength of the intro mechs?

[Fnord]

I'm trying to arrange a few intro game matches, to lure more people into battletech, and in order to make things as fun as possible for people, I would like to create well balanced forces. So how would you rate the intro mechs (if you take BV into account)?

Here is a list of the mechs:
Commando COM-2D
Spider SDR-5V
Jenner JR7-D
Panther PNT-9R
Assassin ASN-21
Cicada CDA-2A
Clint CLNT-2-3T
Hermes II HER-2S
Witworth WTH-1
Vindicator VND-1R
Enforcer ENF-4R
Hunchback HBK-4G
Trebuchet TBT-5N
Dervish DV-6M
Dragon DRG-1N
Quickdraw QKD-4G
Catapult CPLT-C1
Jagermech JM6-S
Grasshopper GHR-5H
Awesome AWS-8Q
Zeus ZEU-6S
Cyclops CP-10-Z
Banshee BNC-3E
Atlas AS7-D

[Belisarius]

Well, without taking BV into account, you must also keep in mind, some of those designs tend to outshine others, even when compensated by skills or force mixing. The Grasshopper and the Awesome are both particularly effective and hard to kill. The Whitworth too, to some extent, will punch above it's pay grade.

So any force you mix up that includes one or more of those three, even if played against a BV balanced enemy force, you're going to see it perform above it's BV.

Conversely, some of the original designs are specialty designs that perform poorly outside their roles (Jagermech I'm looking at you). Those machines will consistently underperform relative to their BV when used in roles for which they weren't designed. To some extent, the Hunchback, Panther, and Cyclops fall into this category. Don't get me wrong, the AC20 is a beast, but with only 160 armor to close with and being the big scares they are, they tend to attract undue attention and therefore fall before they can really bring their firepower to bear. That said, I'm always shocked by how long those twenty rounds last...

BV is a great tool, but in order to take into account all of the possible advantages, it doesn't do very well in looking at the synergy of certain advantages compared to others. That results in you having some winners and losers in the BV to combat power relationship.

[Fnord]

Poor Jagermech, it never receives any love :(

I'll make sure that the grasshopper & Awesome stays on different sides in any fight, to avoid any highly imbalanced fights, and the jaeger will be given to anyone with a bit of experience, to even things out. And yes, the Hunchback does seem to scare people so much that every big gun on the table gets pointed towards it. Anything big & scary seem to receive such treatment.

[Belisarius]

Truthfully, that's one reason why mechs like the Grasshopper and Battlemaster are able to beat up enemies. Folks have a tendency to say 'hey, it's only medium lasers, I have time'... by the time they recognize their mistake they're eating 20+ damage a turn. Conversely, the AC20 toters make folks go 'woah, that mech's got a 20, I better drop him before he gets to shoot me'.

And definitely work experience with the Jager. It can be great in the right hands... a few magic plinks down the road and you can have opponents realize halfway into a fight that they should have devoted a few rounds at the Jager.

[House Davie Merc]

Keep some of the best larger mechs on different sides.

Especially the Awesome and Grasshopper .

I wouldn't stick a new guy with the Jagermech if you want to recruit  them .

I'd also make sure that for the purposes of bringing in new players that you
make sure one side doesn't have a range advantage over the other or a sizable
advantage in speed or armor .

If you want something more specific then that then you'll probably have to tell us
how many mechs you want each side to use .

[Neufeld]

So, basically you want to know if the mechs are worth their BV cost or not, right?

Here is the mechs listed in BV order:
AS7-D Atlas         1897
AWS-8Q Awesome         1605
GHR-5H Grasshopper      1427
BNC-3E Banshee         1422
CPLT-C1 Catapult      1399
ZEU-6S Zeus         1348
CP-10-Z Cyclops         1317
QKD-4G Quickdraw      1192
TBT-5N Trebuchet      1191
DV-6M Dervish         1146
DRG-1N Dragon         1125
HBK-4G Hunchback      1041
ENF-4R Enforcer         1032
VND-1R Vindicator      1024
WTH-1 Whitworth         982
JM6-S JagerMech         901
JR7-D Jenner         875
HER-2S Hermes II      784
CLNT-2-3T Clint         770
PNT-9R Panther         769
ASN-21 Assassin         749
CDA-2A Cicada         659
SDR-5V Spider         622
COM-2D Commando         541

I would say that all three AC/20 carriers are overpriced. So is also the Cicada which is an overgrown locust 1E. The Commando while being cheapest, will go down fast. Quickdraw is also very unimpressive.
I would also rate Enforcer and Vindicator much higher.

To adjust BV, I would do the following:
Atlas -300 BV
Cyclops -100 BV
Quickdraw - 50 BV
Hunchback -50 BV
Enforcer +100 BV
Vindicator +100 BV
Cicada -100 BV
Commando -100 BV

[Greyhind]

The Panther could use a little bump. Up to around the Jenner's BV, I reckon.

[I am Belch II]

Panther is slow, with good firepower. But the Jenner is so much faster, and can jump.

[willydstyle]

While the Panther has its uses as the little guy who throws rocks at the guys who are actually fighting, in a straight up duel a jenner will beat a panther most of the time.  The Jenner is a beautiful little bastard, with great firepower and speed. I just don't see how a panther is worth more compared to it.

[Decoy]

If the Panther hits the Jenner ANYWHERE with the PPC, it's going internal. The Jenner may have mobility, but it's going to be forced to do hit and run attacks on the Panther, due to it's low heat dispersal capacity.  The Panther ranges it and out armors it. 

Still, all and all it'd be the Jenner's fight if he can keep his movement modifiers up.

[greatsarcasmo]

While the Panther has its uses as the little guy who throws rocks at the guys who are actually fighting, in a straight up duel a jenner will beat a panther most of the time.  The Jenner is a beautiful little bastard, with great firepower and speed. I just don't see how a panther is worth more compared to it.

Because it is a Panther?   ;)
Seriously, they are designed for two different roles and if you're dueling a Jenner with a Panther, you're doing something wrong...

[JPArbiter]

If the Panther hits the Jenner ANYWHERE with the PPC, it's going internal. The Jenner may have mobility, but it's going to be forced to do hit and run attacks on the Panther, due to it's low heat dispersal capacity.  The Panther ranges it and out armors it. 

it is the classic question of Volume of fire Vs actual Firepower, the same comparison of the Jagermech vs. something like a Warhammer. (Debate for another time...)

Do you want potentially 1 or 2 shots that may hit and deal crippling damage, or do you want 4 shots so that you will damage once per turn, and down them with bug bites.

[Wanderer]

The best part about those intro mechs is that they have variants. Lovely, lovely variants that can give you all sorts of fun with just the models you already have.

Rather have the Cyclops minus the AC/20, but much more protection and some extra LRMs? -10-Q version. Think the standard Jagermech isn't doing it? Put them in a -A.

It's a good way to also introduce that in Battletech (unlike 40K) what you see on the model isn't always what you get, and the joys of canon variants.

[JPArbiter]

The best part about those intro mechs is that they have variants. Lovely, lovely variants that can give you all sorts of fun with just the models you already have.

Rather have the Cyclops minus the AC/20, but much more protection and some extra LRMs? -10-Q version. Think the standard Jagermech isn't doing it? Put them in a -A.

Best Jagermech ever is the JM6-DG.  watch your opponents cry as they have to tackle two gauss Rifles and a 2 gunnery skill mechwarrior against their surprisingly under armored super mech.  (or in my case a Mad Cat H)

[Fnord]

Thanks Neufeld, I'll use your modified BV list as a guidline when I design forces.

  I own the 3039 RS PDF, so I'm no stranger to the variety that it offers, but when introducing new people, I would like to keep it as simple as possible, and thus I stick with the intro designs for their first few games. Once they feel comfortable with the game, I'll start introducing new stuff.

[Demos]

I'd not use the modified BV. Not, because I don't support the changes, but you should keep it traceable for new players.

I'd choose similar mechs with a toal BV for each group.
The mechs shouldn't be something too special (thin-armored, reliance on mobility etc).

So maybe Side A:
Zeus
Grasshopper
Enforcer
total BV: 3807

Side B:
Awesome
Trebuchet
Vindicator
total BV: 3820

nearly identical BV, no real Deathtrap. and Side A has a lightly armor advantage above Side B, which have the firepower of three PPCs.

So, don't adjust BV.
Build two forces with a comparable BV, tonnage, mobility and total of armor points.

just my 2 cents.

[willydstyle]

I like those forces.

[Hellraiser]

Conversely, some of the original designs are specialty designs that perform poorly outside their roles (Jagermech I'm looking at you). Those machines will consistently underperform relative to their BV when used in roles for which they weren't designed. To some extent, the Hunchback, Panther, and Cyclops fall into this category. Don't get me wrong, the AC20 is a beast, but with only 160 armor to close with and being the big scares they are, they tend to attract undue attention and therefore fall before they can really bring their firepower to bear. That said, I'm always shocked by how long those twenty rounds last...

I'm going to disagree with you here.
I mean, I agree that BV isn't perfect but one of the things about it is it is a HECK of a lot more effective than say tonnage.
For instance, if you look at the Cyclops & the Hunchback, both give you an AC20 but the Cyc gives you LRMs and a much bigger chassis for physicals as well and at a small BV increase.
Compare that BV to the Atlas which also packs similar weaponry but a bunch more Armor and you'll see what I mean.

The Jaggermech is NOT a great mech, but it certainly isn't expensive in BV, and its most often ignored, all the while laying down small 2-5 point hits that begin to add up over the long term.

Sure, an LRM15 is more effective than an AC5, but under BV the LRM15 also COSTS more than the AC5, so it balances out.

Where BV fails IMHO is in overheating units....its very rare that you can alpha often enough make a difference but an overheating mech pays for all those extra guns.

The key with most units is to know WHEN and when NOT to field them.
I mean a Hunchback fighting on a pancake for terrain will get that extra agro you mentioned and die fast,  but that same mech when paired up with an Archer & a little cover will likely last a lot longer.

An Awesome is not the best unit to bring to a city fight where the slow speed, minimum range, and direct fire weaponry are at a disadvantage.  Not that a 16 point kick is a bad thing but its not a triple ppc barrage either.