Author Topic: Unified Doctor Who thread  (Read 147490 times)

monbvol

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #780 on: 09 September 2014, 08:56:19 »
And I think that is where we the viewers are starting to have some difficulty.  I in particular think Capaldi is doing well as the Doctor with some, shall we say not great, scripts but his Doctor is still coming off a bit like the 1st Doctor before they started softening him up.

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #781 on: 09 September 2014, 17:01:04 »
Oh for sure.  Mark Gatiss himself said that he wrote the story to have a "Key to Time" kind of vibe.  It would have fit in quite well during the "Douglas Adams years" of the 4th Doctor--but those are precisely some of Tom Baker's least favourite...also, the whole "spaceship disguised as a castle" thing was slightly reminiscent of "State of Decay", from Baker's final season.

Well...Douglas Adams did write "City of Death" which is consistantly voted as one of the best stories ever. (Personally I find it better than "Caves of Androzani".)



The fight between Robin and the Sheriff was hastily re-shot to avoid any unfortunate comparisons to current events in the Middle East--the original climax of the fight would've been Robin chopping the Sheriff's head off.  Or did you mean the whole golden arrow as extra fuel bit?
I have no idea what you are talking about there....I was talking about the three of them shooting the arrow into the spaceship

We'll have to wait and see on that one.  I think he did already face a moral dilemma in "Into the Dalek", and both succeeded and failed, IMO.  He tried to do the "right" thing, but he didn't really reform Rusty, just gave it a new target for its basic directive.  As for what kind of Doctor Capaldi is, I have to agree with the above post that said he was difficult to empathize with.  He's narrow-minded and prickly in a way his immediate predecessors wouldn't be.  In the last episode in particular, I was especially put off by his pat dismissal of the possibility Robin Hood could be real--wouldn't verifying the historical accuracy of legendary figures be exactly the kind of thing the Doctor would jump at?  (Kind of surprising he hadn't addressed this particular case already!)  I mean, I could just see the 11th Doctor, with his usual kid-like enthusiasm, exclaiming "OMG you're REAL!!!" (or something to that effect) upon meeting Robin in the flesh.


So yes...I *want* to like Capaldi's Doctor, but he seems to be shaping up to be something of an anti-hero so far.

cheers,

Gabe

Except the episode "Dalek" dealt with a similar situation. And I think it dealt with it better.



And I think that is where we the viewers are starting to have some difficulty.  I in particular think Capaldi is doing well as the Doctor with some, shall we say not great, scripts but his Doctor is still coming off a bit like the 1st Doctor before they started softening him up.



You know, I think you are very right about that. He does feel like he belongs with the Doctors from the Classic series. Which is good I think. It's time to get away from the fangirl/fanboy pandering of the Tennant and Smith years.

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monbvol

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #782 on: 09 September 2014, 17:38:56 »
*nod*

I tend to think it is a sign that they do want to start doing more with the Doctor and I do like that it seems to be moving away from the companion has to be a romantic interest.

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #783 on: 09 September 2014, 20:02:21 »
*nod*

I tend to think it is a sign that they do want to start doing more with the Doctor and I do like that it seems to be moving away from the companion has to be a romantic interest.

Oh God yes, please, let it be so.



You know the more I think about how Clara reacted to Capaldi, the more I think that is more a metaphor for the Doctor's fans than just a character's reaction. I've talked to several people that strongly dislike the new Doctor. So much so that they've stopped watching. And mostly for the same reason's Clara initially disliked the Capaldi. He's old, he isn't cute, he isn't fun. Basically he isn't fanfodder. So I wonder how many fans the show will lose...(well, won't call them Whovians, just Smith-fans.)

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gyedid

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #784 on: 09 September 2014, 20:57:33 »

Well...Douglas Adams did write "City of Death" which is consistantly voted as one of the best stories ever. (Personally I find it better than "Caves of Androzani".)

Well, there are fan favourites, and actor favourites.  Baker has gone on record as saying that he felt the quality of the stories and scripts declined after the Hinchcliffe & Holmes years.


[/font]I have no idea what you are talking about there....I was talking about the three of them shooting the arrow into the spaceship

Yes, that's what I meant as well.

Except the episode "Dalek" dealt with a similar situation. And I think it dealt with it better.

I don't think anybody has said that that "Into the Dalek" was the superior story.  I was merely pointing out that it was a case where this new Doctor did have a moral dilemma to face, even if it wasn't as weighty as, say, what the 10th Doctor faced in "The Fires of Pompeii"--where he basically had to correct history by allowing mass mortality.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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gyedid

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #785 on: 09 September 2014, 21:05:06 »
You know the more I think about how Clara reacted to Capaldi, the more I think that is more a metaphor for the Doctor's fans than just a character's reaction. I've talked to several people that strongly dislike the new Doctor. So much so that they've stopped watching. And mostly for the same reason's Clara initially disliked the Capaldi. He's old, he isn't cute, he isn't fun. Basically he isn't fanfodder. So I wonder how many fans the show will lose...(well, won't call them Whovians, just Smith-fans.)

http://observationdeck.io9.com/the-adult-doctor-1630402018

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

YingJanshi

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #786 on: 09 September 2014, 21:42:10 »
http://observationdeck.io9.com/the-adult-doctor-1630402018

cheers,

Gabe

Mm...true to a point. But I'm not really sure it applies to what I said. I'm not saying kick these fans out...rather they've decided to leave on their own. Their reaction mirrored Clara's perfectly. And instead of seeing that it is still Doctor Who, they've decided to  quit because they don't like the new guy. (Yes, some people never do get used to a new doctor...but this is different, in stead of not liking the new actor, they dislike the entire show. Almost violently.)

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Mecha82

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #787 on: 10 September 2014, 02:06:11 »
So were do then fit? I liked Smith and I like Capaldi as well. They are different but that's fine by me. Classic Who did also have change each time there was new actor playing Doctor. Some were more light hearted, some were more serious.     
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gyedid

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #788 on: 10 September 2014, 08:06:32 »
So were do then fit? I liked Smith and I like Capaldi as well. They are different but that's fine by me. Classic Who did also have change each time there was new actor playing Doctor. Some were more light hearted, some were more serious.   

Not just the actor, but also the executive producer (now showrunner) and other members of the production team.
To get back to the previous example, think about the differences in look, feel, and mood between the Philip Hinchcliffe, Graham Williams, and JNT eras of Tom Baker's tenure, and how Baker had to adjust his style for each.
This is something that hasn't yet happened with modern Who.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #789 on: 10 September 2014, 15:23:27 »
So I wonder how many fans the show will lose...(well, won't call them Whovians, just Smith-fans.)
Many Whovians would be offended by this notion.  Whether or not they agree with you, they're still Doctor Who fans.

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #790 on: 10 September 2014, 17:40:37 »
Do you guys think that the classic  seriies's run was better when was not so commerialized?
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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #791 on: 10 September 2014, 21:24:28 »
Do you guys think that the classic  seriies's run was better when was not so commerialized?

That's not an easy question to answer... especially for the dedicated DW fans who, like myself, are devotees of both the Classic and NuWho- eras.

To put it simply, I would say that the Classic series probably benefited, at times, from more explorative writers [that weren't commercial BIG NAMES in the industry, nor] who certainly weren't afraid to push the boundaries of what could become "believable" in terms of the mythos for the show. And the non-commercialisation helped... since there wasn't nearly as much hype for an upcoming episode's story that we see prevalent with upcoming NuWho episodes these days. So not many fans could usually "dump" on an episode if it didn't manage to live up to their expectations of the hype seen before the episode aired.

On the other hand, the overall commercialisation of NuWho has allowed the "DW phenomenon" to reach new televised shores that it may not have seen in the past. It's also helped to achieve levels of popularity and support that were hardly ever fully realised in the Classic Who era.

...

I need to think on this more, actually. As I said, it's not an easy question to answer.
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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #792 on: 11 September 2014, 15:29:39 »
The question is complicated by the fact that many of the older episodes have been completely lost.  The original films where poorly preserved or simply thrown out.  We don't have the baseline that we could use.

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #793 on: 11 September 2014, 16:03:30 »
At this point only 97 episodes are missing (from a total of 803), and the audio tracks and studio photographs exist for all of them, so we have some level of record of the entire show.  Even discounting the missing episodes, there's more than enough Classic Who out there to form an opinion.
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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #794 on: 11 September 2014, 16:29:46 »
Okay, speaking as someone who started with the old serieses (?!), I think it's fair to say that the old series were cheaply and shoddily made - BBC special effects = cardboard & flash powder, mainly, with a wide range of actors some of whom were actually good actors, many of which were from the pool of unemployed British actors.

The elements which lifted it were, IMHO, the imaginations of the writers, the opportunity to re-use existing BBC historical sets & costumes, the recurring story elements (Daleks, Cybermen, the Master in later old series) - remember, "light entertainment" hadn't discovered the story arc at that point. And above all, the strong (overacted?) characterisations provided by the key actors playing the Doctor.  A lack of serious competition - Star Trek came and went, and only lived on in syndication.

The latter series - McCoy and later - suffered, again IMHO, from weaker actors, greater competition, and (towards the end) weaker writing. YMMV, of course. Post Star Wars there were other TV sci-fi stories being shown, and DW suffered by comparison. Consider Blake's 7, from a similar point in time - same BBC cardboard, a better set of spaceship effects, and strong ensemble acting by Blake, Avon and Servalan, amongst others.
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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #795 on: 11 September 2014, 18:19:16 »
Ugh, ****** Robin Hood.

I'm glad there was no scene with Missy this time, just the more subtle reference to the Promised Land.

But what a stupid episode this was.

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #796 on: 13 September 2014, 21:00:07 »
"Listen"....well now, that episode had some stuff in it I did not see coming...

Edit: No comments on the show?  ???

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #797 on: 14 September 2014, 12:03:01 »
Sorry.  It'll be sitting in the DVR until I can watch it(sometime tomorrow).

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #798 on: 14 September 2014, 12:38:19 »
To be fair I didn't know what to expect from latest episode. Turned out that it had some interesting things in it. 
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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #799 on: 14 September 2014, 16:44:22 »
Just watched "Listen". Pretty good episode. I think Moffet's stories work best when he keeps them simple. Sometimes he tries to put too much in and they collapse. This one shows how good he can be when he doesn't follow that temptation.

One question though: how the heck did the manage to make it to Gallifrey??? Since its locked away somewhere, shouldn't getting there be impossible for every point in it's timeline?

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gyedid

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #800 on: 14 September 2014, 21:56:10 »
One question though: how the heck did the manage to make it to Gallifrey??? Since its locked away somewhere, shouldn't getting there be impossible for every point in it's timeline?


What if it wasn't Gallifrey?  ;)

That is something I've often wondered about though, whether Gallifrey somehow exists outside of whatever the "normal" space-time continuum is in the Whoniverse.  Anything that happens there seems to affect the world's entire timeline.  It only seems to have a present, but its past and future are strangely inaccessible.  Would explain why the Time Lords can't alter their own history to fix/prevent certain things from happening.  Like, "we've come from several thousand years in the future to tell you that Gallifrey is a hair's breadth from falling to the Daleks.  Better beef up your defenses to make sure that doesn't happen."  Or better yet, why not prevent Davros from ever being born... 


cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Mecha82

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #801 on: 15 September 2014, 02:49:21 »
From what I could gather from what Clara said to young Doctor they didn't go to Gallifrey. There were in that place were War Doctor took that weapon.
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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #802 on: 15 September 2014, 06:56:03 »
Well, I have to say that was - in my opinion - the first now reservations, genuinely good episode of the season.

I fell out of favour with heaven somewhere, so I'm here for the hell of it now...

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #803 on: 15 September 2014, 12:16:08 »
*nod*

The 50th did seem to make it pretty clear that barn was not on Gallifrey so it seems they did have colonies.

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #804 on: 15 September 2014, 13:49:55 »

What if it wasn't Gallifrey?  ;)

That is something I've often wondered about though, whether Gallifrey somehow exists outside of whatever the "normal" space-time continuum is in the Whoniverse.  Anything that happens there seems to affect the world's entire timeline.  It only seems to have a present, but its past and future are strangely inaccessible.  Would explain why the Time Lords can't alter their own history to fix/prevent certain things from happening.  Like, "we've come from several thousand years in the future to tell you that Gallifrey is a hair's breadth from falling to the Daleks.  Better beef up your defenses to make sure that doesn't happen."  Or better yet, why not prevent Davros from ever being born... 


cheers,

Gabe


As for that, it's always been my theory that the TARDISes were timelocked to Gallifrey in their present. So time aboard a TARDIS and on Gallifrey progresses at the same speed. Would explain why the Doctor always seems to arrive in a linear fashion. Also the Time Lords seem to have their own version of the Prime Directive. And I would expect that would include mucking about in Gallifrey's past as well.

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #805 on: 15 September 2014, 14:16:01 »
The Doctor specifically disabled the TARDIS's safety features earlier in the episode, and they'd already made it to the end of time, which the Doctor said they shouldn't be able to do. So there's at least some hand waving that could justify them going to Gallifrey.
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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #806 on: 15 September 2014, 15:24:38 »
Ponderous, boring and we're back to Clara as a plot device.

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #807 on: 16 September 2014, 22:18:18 »
Just watched "Listen". Pretty good episode. I think Moffet's stories work best when he keeps them simple. Sometimes he tries to put too much in and they collapse. This one shows how good he can be when he doesn't follow that temptation.

One question though: how the heck did the manage to make it to Gallifrey??? Since its locked away somewhere, shouldn't getting there be impossible for every point in it's timeline?

I always thought it odd that this particular world might be Gallifrey. It seems like a confusing place for the War Doctor to "hide" The Moment weapon.

My guess... it's either a "lost world," or a world that the Doctor spent some time on as a child. We know he had some difficulty adjusting to an early life of structured education at "Timelord Academy," so I wouldn't be surprised to learn that this was one of his secretive "hidey hole" worlds that he fled to when he slipped out of school on occasion.
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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #808 on: 16 September 2014, 23:17:16 »
The Doctor specifically disabled the TARDIS's safety features earlier in the episode, and they'd already made it to the end of time, which the Doctor said they shouldn't be able to do. So there's at least some hand waving that could justify them going to Gallifrey.

Well, they've been to the end of the universe before, in "Utopia", and that was due to the TARDIS trying to shake off the temporally anomalous Captain Jack.  So it can suspend its own safeties if it feels the need is great enough.


The whole "end of the universe" sequence was replete with references to "Utopia" and "Midnight".  I get the feeling that's what this episode was--Moffat trying to have his "Midnight".  I kept expecting the "Toclafane" or other protagonists from "Utopia" to turn up, but no such luck...also, this last world seemed to still have a sun, whereas the one in "Utopia" was down to rapidly-dwindling artificial power sources.

And that thing on young Danny's bed...when it pulled off the cover we could see just an inkling of a face, the edge of a head and an eye...unclear what it was but didn't look human from the bit we saw.

I think one of the great disservices the episode did was taking a sizeable chunk out of the Doctor's mystery.  That's always been one of the main motivating factors of the show, and the final sequence in the barn just made it seem smaller somehow.  Sure, we don't know what happened in the Doctor's life between then and when he finally ran from Gallifrey, but now we're just a step closer to knowing and understanding "Who?".  But, it is new canon.

And this episode just seems to confirm that Clara has a relationship with the Doctor like no other companion.  "The Name of the Doctor" made her a kind of guardian angel to the Doctor, but still in a very reactive way, always racing to undo the damage wrought on his timeline by the Great Intelligence.  Now, she's the one who ensures that the Doctor will become the man he is--but the way it was handled was more PROactive and, dare I say, emotionally engaging and satisfying than what we saw in "Name".  There was something almost motherly about the way she comforted the young Doctor, almost becoming the Doctor in place of the man himself.  She assimilated her previous experiences remarkably rapidly.  And kudos to Jenna Coleman for carrying it off surprisingly well.     


cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: Unified Doctor Who thread
« Reply #809 on: 21 September 2014, 17:34:55 »
No comments on "Time Heist"?

Fun little episode, with the Doctor doing a bank heist...also loved several of the nods to former things, some outside of Who (loved Peter's "Shuttity Up Up Up"...and thought they'd get in at least one "Trust the thing" as many times as they commented about having or doing a thing)...and loved the other characters that helped in the bank heist...

Oh, and yet again, confirmation that the Doctor hates himself...

Ruger
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