Gun safes.. E-lock or manual dial?

[garhkal]

For those who are collectors, shooters, hunters etc, IE those who own guns..  When you look for gun safes to store them in, who here prefers those electronic (OR E-locks), vs those who prefer manual dial locks.

For those who prefer manual dial locks, is there any specific reason?
For those who prefer the E-locks, is it because of ease of use??

[SteelRaven]

Not a gun owner myself due to budgetary constraints but have friends who invite me to the range and have worked with plenty of cash safes. This day and age, it comes down to personal preference. Most safe prices are based on the size and material used for the safe itself so the type of lock shouldn't be a determining factor in the price for a quality safe (a good lock is a good lock) The one benefit you have with a electronic key pad is that you can change the combination when you feel it's needed. One reason why most businesses use digital for their cash safes, they can change the code whenever there may be a security concern. The only bit of of extra maintenance is changing the battery, no more of a hassle than changing the battery on your smoke detector.       

[Tegyrius]

I recommend talking to your local safe dealer about this… preferably a safe specialist, not some random salesbro at Fleet Farm. Ask them about the volume of service calls they take on mechanical versus electronic locks.

[Daryk]

Also consider replacement cost if you have to drill one.  X-08s were notoriously unreliable.  I've had much better luck with X-09s and later models.

[garhkal]

Also consider replacement cost if you have to drill one.  X-08s were notoriously unreliable.  I've had much better luck with X-09s and later models.

Tell me about it..  ALL the comsec safes we had with X-08s on them, often had the board get shanked (due to the salt water in the air), compared to it rarely happened with our X-09s..

And Tegyrius, that's a good call in talking to safe dealers/repair folks..

[Daryk]

As the Security Manager on a carrier, I went through a whole case of the damn things...

[Prospernia]

I would recommend a combo, that you can easily remember.  I have a combo lock at my place, I use every day, yet, at times, I draw a blank.

I used to work at a cowboy-gun retailer; the volume horrible hang-guns we'd get shipped in, for repairs(not just ours), that would misfire or discharge on their own, made me never to have a pistol, ever. If I did, I'd keep it in pieces and have to assemble it, just to be safe.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Note also that in some states or municipalities, there may also be laws or regulatory requirements on gun safes.

[garhkal]

As the Security Manager on a carrier, I went through a whole case of the damn things...

Which carrier?  I was on CV-66 from 93-96, then on the Kennedy from 96-97...

[Daryk]

CVN-68, NIMITZ.  I even got to drive her around Cape Horn.  That particular day was beautiful.  Not so much the following week...

[garhkal]

Now a linked (in a way) side question.  DO you prefer screwing safes in, to where its secure to a Wall, OR bolt it to the floor??

[Tegyrius]

Now a linked (in a way) side question.  DO you prefer screwing safes in, to where its secure to a Wall, OR bolt it to the floor??

Anchored to the floor. It’ll take particular dedication to lift a safe off vertical bolts. Easier to apply lateral force (or demolish the wall).

You’re trying to accomplish two things with a safe (well, two anti-theft things). The first is keeping someone from opening the safe, whether forcefully or subtly, with the time and tools they have available (including your tools). The second is preventing them from sliding/rolling that safe into the back of a UHaul and taking it to a secondary crime scene where they have much more time to open it.

Also note that a safe’s security may be inversely proportional to the number of people who know it’s there. This includes household members, visitors, tradespeople, realtors… and anyone they talk to.

[garhkal]

Also note that a safe’s security may be inversely proportional to the number of people who know it’s there. This includes household members, visitors, tradespeople, realtors… and anyone they talk to.

True, the fewer folk who know its there the less risk of it being broken into..

[House Davie Merc]

E-Lock every day and twice on Sunday.

Most of the problems with them are from cheap locks
and people that don't change the batteries.
Buy quality and skimp elsewhere.
Most people won't believe this-but it's usually considered easier to break
into a mechanical lock then an electronic.

I have a pistol safe buy the bed with a Biometric lock on it and a key backup.
It's not meant for anything valuable-just to keep the kids out of the pistols
while maintaining quick access.
Keep the eye clean and it works great.

I've seen some kits for rifle safes out there to remove your keypad and
replace it with a Biometric eye on top and a backup keypad.
When we move I'd like to get one.

[garhkal]

Anyone done one of those attached to the bed-frame, under the bed sliding draw safes?

[idea weenie]

Just make sure you get a good gun safe, instead of one of these:
SnapSafe’s TrekLite TSA Gun Lockbox (4 minutes, has a mistake for one key and a mistake in the back)
Vaultek Lifepod (2 minutes, the company contacted him that evening with an update)
Vaultek VS20 (4 minutes, it is primarily good vs a determined adolescent)
Toriexon gun 'safe' (2 minutes, this is an amazing weakness)

[Prospernia]

Anyone done one of those attached to the bed-frame, under the bed sliding draw safes?

I've never seen one of those; in college, I worked a moving-company and, a few homes, had large gun-safes. Most people kept their safes in the garage, thankfully; the rest, kept them in their upstairs, master-bedroom closet.

[Hellraiser]

Now a linked (in a way) side question.  DO you prefer screwing safes in, to where its secure to a Wall, OR bolt it to the floor??

Most people kept their safes in the garage, thankfully; the rest, kept them in their upstairs, master-bedroom closet.

This is my current conundrum.

1st Floor safe secured to the concrete foundation......... or....... 2nd Floor safe that will only be secured by wood/drywall/flooring?

Decisions Decisions.

[garhkal]

This is my current conundrum.

1st Floor safe secured to the concrete foundation......... or....... 2nd Floor safe that will only be secured by wood/drywall/flooring?

Decisions Decisions.

At least upstairs, any thieves, need to get it out first, THEN get it downstairs...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

This is my current conundrum.

1st Floor safe secured to the concrete foundation......... or....... 2nd Floor safe that will only be secured by wood/drywall/flooring?

Decisions Decisions.

Basement.

[garhkal]

Depending on where one lives, one may not have a basement, let alone the capacity to make a basement.

[Hellraiser]

Basements in Arizona are not nearly as common as other states.

Which annoys me frankly because basements are cooler & god knows anything to keep temps down in AZ is a good thing.

[Prospernia]

This is my current conundrum.

1st Floor safe secured to the concrete foundation......... or....... 2nd Floor safe that will only be secured by wood/drywall/flooring? . . .

Either way, to move the safe, they'd have to invest some time and you'd have to be gone for a long-time for them to get it out; it would be easier to just crack the safe than to move it, so, either location doesn't matter.  And surely, there are things more valuable worth taking than guns  or a gun-safe like power-tools, jewelry, the original arm from the first T-800, Terminator, etc.

[deathshadow]

who here prefers those electronic (OR E-locks), vs those who prefer manual dial locks.

NEITHER.

Rotary / dial locks are a joke, in most cases easily manually decoded until you get up into safes that get bolted to the floor in concrete.

E-Locks are even worse since they usually have a mechanical key-lock backup that's easier to pick than even a cheap masterlock. No joke they're often three or less tumblers. To me e-locks, smart-locks, whatever you want to call them are poster children for what Scotty meant by "The more they overwork the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

Thus I like the good old key lock. Sure they can be picked, but in the price range most normal people can have all of the above have issues. Of them the key lock is usually the most secure.

Hell, my old man built his own gun cabinet back in the '80's that was a joke... not because the cabinet was a joke -- had this giant hardened steel rod going across the front. The problem was that rod was held in place with a padlock you could shim with a cut up aluminum can.

Overall though I compare it to the locks on a car. It's only really there to keep the honest people out.

You want worst of the worst though? Some of the smart locks that are biometric or RFID.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcZPIfIbG5o

Though watching LPL will make you never trust a lock ever again.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

While it's true that there's no way to build a lock or home security device that is impossible to break into, there's still a point when most criminals will decide that it's not worth bothering with.  Especially when for every person who does keep their guns and other assorted valuables locked up in a safe there's a few dozen who don't.

[deathshadow]

Oh also it seems like the more "robust" the case and fancier the electronics, the more of a joke the mechanical fallback locks tend to be.

Though on the "portable" gun safes like the ones you'd use when transporting? Those can be just horrifyingly bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UB9j-P6JSk

[Daryk]

LPL is great!  Even government approved "high security" locks are only rated for so long against a determined effort to get in.

[Cannonshop]

Now a linked (in a way) side question.  DO you prefer screwing safes in, to where its secure to a Wall, OR bolt it to the floor??

YES.

that is, "Yes to both please."

Okay, here's my perspective;  a safe is like locking your car-it's not going to stop a dedicated professional, but the more difficult you make it, the fewer opportunists can make off with your valuables.

If you're bolting it down, and you can, then both to the wall, and to the floor is preferable to either/or.  mount in a corner and you can be bolted securely on THREE sides (wall, wall, floor).

if it's either/or, consider that most walls are drywall, over studs.  This is low structural integrity for securing an otherwise portable item.  the floor, on the other hand, is likely to be much more solid than that, and much more difficult to overcome, and floors are less likely to have electrical runs in them.

[garhkal]

NEITHER.

Rotary / dial locks are a joke, in most cases easily manually decoded until you get up into safes that get bolted to the floor in concrete.

True, but from the few school sessions we had, about breaking locks (for comsec reasons), the time it takes someone, to crack manual dials, most thieves won't have, unless they break into a home and TAKE the safe with them.. 

Thus I like the good old key lock. Sure they can be picked, but in the price range most normal people can have all of the above have issues. Of them the key lock is usually the most secure.

I wonder, if they've ever made a key lock that can't be picked??

Overall though I compare it to the locks on a car. It's only really there to keep the honest people out.

True, the determined will always get in, even if they just have to break it to get in it..

While it's true that there's no way to build a lock or home security device that is impossible to break into, there's still a point when most criminals will decide that it's not worth bothering with.  Especially when for every person who does keep their guns and other assorted valuables locked up in a safe there's a few dozen who don't.

We had a gal when i was stationed in Bahrain, who had her home stateside broken into.  HER two safes (One for her coins, one for her important documents), had a manual dial safe covering it up, then she had the electronic lock to get in.  Cops said the criminals cut into the first lock cover, but by the time they saw the second, the just left her home with what loot they stole already.  Compared to two other homes they broke into that they were able to get OODLES of stuff, because the owners had NOT ONE thing under lock and key...

YES.

that is, "Yes to both please."

Okay, here's my perspective;  a safe is like locking your car-it's not going to stop a dedicated professional, but the more difficult you make it, the fewer opportunists can make off with your valuables.

Would you care for a side of fries with that...

If you're bolting it down, and you can, then both to the wall, and to the floor is preferable to either/or.  mount in a corner and you can be bolted securely on THREE sides (wall, wall, floor).

Never thought of bolting it to TWO walls (in a corner) AND the floor...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I wonder, if they've ever made a key lock that can't be picked??

Not physically possible.

[Hellraiser]

had a manual dial safe covering it up, then she had the electronic lock to get in. 

Wait, can I get a picture of that.  So it was like a lock over a lock?  Mildly confused.

If you're bolting it down, and you can, then both to the wall, and to the floor is preferable to either/or.  mount in a corner and you can be bolted securely on THREE sides (wall, wall, floor).

Never thought of bolting it to TWO walls (in a corner) AND the floor...

I like where your heads at!
My Master Closet borders the exterior of the house & the bathroom on the 2nd story. 
This might be my spot, lol 

[Prospernia]

While it's true that there's no way to build a lock or home security device that is impossible to break into, there's still a point when most criminals will decide that it's not worth bothering with.  Especially when for every person who does keep their guns and other assorted valuables locked up in a safe there's a few dozen who don't.

I know an ex car-thief and he told me that if a car has a flashing light on the dash-board, he'd just move on to the next car; because there's plenty of cars on the block and it's not worth the risk, what ever that light means.

[garhkal]

Wait, can I get a picture of that.  So it was like a lock over a lock?  Mildly confused.

From my memory on how she described it, it was the safe inserted into the ground of her home's basement (think john wick style), then she hinged another safe like door Over it...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I know an ex car-thief and he told me that if a car has a flashing light on the dash-board, he'd just move on to the next car; because there's plenty of cars on the block and it's not worth the risk, what ever that light means.

That reminds me- a few weeks ago my mom read an article about how some car theft rings are recording the signals from key fobs, causing her to become paranoid that my car was going to get stolen if I didn't switch to immediately storing my key fobs in a Faraday Cage.  Which, car theft is a thing that happens in my area, but 90% of the time it's old cars that don't have electronic keys or keyless ignitions.

Also, she was strangely unconcerned about the possibility of her own car being stolen, despite it being a newer and more expensive car than mine.

[deathshadow]

Not physically possible.

There's an old saying from computer science that applies here.

"The only truly secure system is one with zero access. The moment anyone needs to be able to get in, you are no longer secure."

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yup.  If there's a way to get in legitimately, there's a way to get in illegitimately as well.

[Hellraiser]

From my memory on how she described it, it was the safe inserted into the ground of her home's basement (think john wick style), then she hinged another safe like door Over it...

An I see, Vertical & inset into something.  Got it.

That is one thing I really can't do, LOL, nothing in this house is thick enough for all that.

[Cannonshop]

True, but from the few school sessions we had, about breaking locks (for comsec reasons), the time it takes someone, to crack manual dials, most thieves won't have, unless they break into a home and TAKE the safe with them.. 

I wonder, if they've ever made a key lock that can't be picked??

True, the determined will always get in, even if they just have to break it to get in it..

We had a gal when i was stationed in Bahrain, who had her home stateside broken into.  HER two safes (One for her coins, one for her important documents), had a manual dial safe covering it up, then she had the electronic lock to get in.  Cops said the criminals cut into the first lock cover, but by the time they saw the second, the just left her home with what loot they stole already.  Compared to two other homes they broke into that they were able to get OODLES of stuff, because the owners had NOT ONE thing under lock and key...

Would you care for a side of fries with that...

Never thought of bolting it to TWO walls (in a corner) AND the floor...

Before his death, my Stepfather was considering a retirement side-job playing with guns, in order to meet BATF guidelines we had to put security gates on all the windows of his house, bolt down the safe storage and he went a little bit 'extra' to make sure-part of that, was bolting gun safes into corners on three sides to make them more difficult for someone unauthorized to remove.

The basic idea remains the same though-you can try security-through-obscurity, (safe that looks like something else), Security through structure, and so on-but the central key is that, if you arne't spending the budget of a third world country, all your measures aren't to stop professionals, because pros know how to get past them.

The measures are to block Opportunistic thieves.   a Junkie looking for something to pawn for their next high is going to focus on what's left 'loose', followed by what's not very well locked down, so the longer it takes for your intruder to get past your 'ordinary' security measures, the better those measures will protect your goods-criminals don't inconvenience themselves if htey don't have to, or they wouldn't be criminals.

Hence why your deadbolt on the front door of your house is the best investment you can make on a cash-to-effect basis-if the door is locked and the lock is a pain to overcome, that's going to freeze out a lower tier of crook.  the more time they have to spend getting at anything they can re-sell? that's going to deter a slightly better level of crook looking for an opportune score.

give someone sufficiently determined enough time, however...

anyway, my vote is pick a corner in your closet, bolt it floor-wall-wall.  it's more bolts, sure, and you still have to secure the actual access to the safe, but depending on what you're using, that's going to take time.

as for the question of Digital versus Mechanical locking schemes? do your own research there, and keep in mind that there has never been, and never will be, a lock that someone with sufficient resources can't overcome if given enough time or resources.  Your locking safe is to inconvenience the opportunistic criminal, not the dedicated professional.

[garhkal]

There's an old saying from computer science that applies here.

"The only truly secure system is one with zero access. The moment anyone needs to be able to get in, you are no longer secure."

We also said, in our IT dept, a security system is only as good as the DUMEST person operating it.

An I see, Vertical & inset into something.  Got it.

That is one thing I really can't do, LOL, nothing in this house is thick enough for all that.

It could work if one had a deep enough basement slab..

[Daryk]

Real professionals don't bother with doors... the blow a hole in a wall... ;D

[Tegyrius]

Real professionals don't bother with doors... the blow a hole in a wall... ;D

If you're the target of a bunch of Heat LARPers, you may want to reconsider the life choices that led you to this point.

[Cannonshop]

If you're the target of a bunch of Heat LARPers, you may want to reconsider the life choices that led you to this point.

Or, consider that you've done something so right, that someone is willing to put that much effort into getting into your bitty little gun safe.

IOW you and me? we're not lucrative enough to make the effort worth it, but Paul Allen or Bill Gates? might be.

[garhkal]

True that. IF a thief's got THAT much time and is willing to go through that much effort, its likely what i have is more than worth stealing.

[Daryk]

Still active duty here... if my people want into a building, they GET IN to the building... ;D

[Prospernia]

That reminds me- a few weeks ago my mom read an article about how some car theft rings are recording the signals from key fobs, causing her to become paranoid that my car was going to get stolen if I didn't switch to immediately storing my key fobs in a Faraday Cage.  Which, car theft is a thing that happens in my area, but 90% of the time it's old cars that don't have electronic keys or keyless ignitions.

Also, she was strangely unconcerned about the possibility of her own car being stolen, despite it being a newer and more expensive car than mine.

That reminds me; in high-school, back when land-lines were still around, I couldn't get a portable-phone for my room because, my parents told me, that, thieves drive around with phone-scanners, and can pick up a portable-phone's number and use it to make fraudulent-calls.  So, never had a phone in my room and had to sit out in the den to talk to my girlfriends when they called, with my parents listening.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I remember hearing about that supposedly happening as well.  Even got a 60 Minutes piece devoted to it, IIRC.

[deathshadow]

We also said, in our IT dept, a security system is only as good as the DUMEST person operating it.

Which is why the biggest data breaches fall into two categories:

1) Amateurs leaving gaping security holes (see idiots who still sleaze user generated variables into query strings instead of prepare/exec separation)

2) Social engineering

The latter being all about manipulating and exploiting human weakness, laziness, and ignorance. It's why phishing scams are so blasted effective.

I mean what's easier? Shimming the lock, or swiping your dad's keys from the keyholder by the front door or the top drawer in the living room shelving?

Not that I ever did stuff like that 40-45 years ago.

Though a great example is something my father set up on the cabinet that was pure comedy and it actually caught a burglar. Four decades later it's probably safe to tell people about this. There was what looked like a normal electrical outlet box with conduit feeding into the cabinet he added with a standard 3 prong plug and wire going into it, that ran over to the fusebox across the room.

Above it on the floor joist he wrote "***WARNING***, Gun Cabinet Alarm, Do not unplug!" in black sharpie.

You know what happened if you unplugged it? It set the alarm off, closed the outside cellar door and inside one, and solenoids fired to secure the deadbolts.

The wire was just a dummy closed circuit. No power running through it. Unplug it, opens the circuit, triggers alarm and safeties.

I think that was the first real example of a "honeypot" I'd ever been exposed to. Also the first time I ever heard of a crim trying to sue a homeowner for illegal detention.

It takes some real donkey brass to break into a house then try to claim to be the victim.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Well, booby traps are illegal in the US.  If your home defense measures rise to the legal definition, you can be held liable.

Also, any idiot can file a frivolous lawsuit.  Judges, however, tend to take extremely dim views of them and will typically dismiss the actually frivolous ones out of hand.  Take the infamous McDonald's coffee lawsuit: that restaurant location had already been issued multiple safety violations because they were serving their coffee well above the safe temperature limit.  It wasn't an instance of someone failing to think that coffee might be hot, it's that coffee should never be served hot enough to cause third degree burns (which is what happened to the plaintiff).

[garhkal]

Your dad was very creative in that defense mechanism..  Cudos to him (waayyyy after the fact that is).

[idea weenie]

I wonder, if they've ever made a key lock that can't be picked??

Not impossible to pick, but the Bowley lock design makes it really difficult to pick:
LPL's Progress so far (17 minutes)
A Bowley 2nd generation with 2 parts (12 minutes)
Animation of how the Bowley lock works (2 minutes)
And here is someone who made a tool to pick the Bowley lock (4 minutes)

[Daryk]

The government standard is 30 minutes against surreptitious/covert entry (page 7 here: https://exwc.navfac.navy.mil/Portals/88/Documents/EXWC/DoD_Locks/PDFs/FF-L-2740.pdf)

[Terminax]

It really depends on your budget and intent. If you're talking about a safe for valuables, a combo lock or key lock is preferable. Better to be small and out of the way, hidden for that purpose.

Firearms, ideally you want at least two layers of protection. A locked gun cabinet, again with key or combo secured yo both the wall and floor is ideal. Having it further secured in a closet with a security door and frame, with a gpod lock will deal with most common issues.

For personal protection, a locking slide out concealed next to or under the bed is sufficient.

I don't trust any RFID systems, too easy to copy and bypass. A good combo or key lock will do.

[greylok]

Considering what has come to light regarding E Locks and gun safe manufacturers have a "master passcode"  they're willing to share sans warrant, i wouldn't have an electronic anything that someone else (i.e. manufacturer) has a backdoor to. The combo style is better but as noted earlier also with significant flaws.  I lean toward a physical key - and would like it if it were a dual key arrangement. Have not seen that on the market though.

Of course, being old school i tend to shun the electro-tech trends, as pointed out previously above referencing the Scotty qoute, it's not an IF it is a WHEN the batteries fail, a connection comes loose, or what have you.

Side note - and sure has the world not doing some techno palm print battery powered security on a firearm, as it too would be susceptible to failure - and likely when said firearm was most needed.

a thought on storage in general - a safe anchored to concrete is of course more secure, however arms stored away from where you are at when a shtf moment occurs makes them less than useless.  Figure out a way to have something where you are - bedroom at night, general living area for other times.

so the saying goes "stay strapped or get clapped"..

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If you need a gun readily accessible in every room in your house, you should probably move.

[SteelRaven]

Of course, being old school i tend to shun the electro-tech trends,

Electronic locks have been around long enough that calling it a 'trend' is a little short sighted.

And for someone to have that master pass code, they would need to know exactly what type of lock/safe you have. If whoever has that much information about you, you have bigger problems than the type and brand of lock.

[Cannonshop]

Electronic locks have been around long enough that calling it a 'trend' is a little short sighted.

And for someone to have that master pass code, they would need to know exactly what type of lock/safe you have. If whoever has that much information about you, you have bigger problems than the type and brand of lock.

okay, this is going to edge into dangerous territory, but...  master codes? are likely to be one code for all produced model of that lock.  It's more efficient for the manufacturer than having more than one.

The other problem was brought up 'Sans Warrant'.  A warrant provides more layers of safety than you think-because judges don't hand them out (in theory) to just anyone for just any reason.  It verifies that the Law Enforcement officer actually IS a law enforcement officer, for example (and not just some guy with a fake ID and a badge-prop), and that their desire to have that code is at least somewhat legitimate, lawful, and legal.

The problem of a 'universal key' for a mass produced item like a gun safe, is that if it's widely produced, and widely purchased, it becomes something where having a passcode that opens several of them, makes an opportunistic thief's life easier.  He might not ALWAYS find one , but when he does, it's the same as leaving the guns lying on the floor of your bedroom, ready to be collected.  If it's available without a warrant, that means it's not going to be treated as carefully as something an officer had to get a warrant to obtain.  This in turn increases the likelihood that said code will end up in the wrong hands, either through neglect, or outright corruption-both of which, since we're dealing with human beings, are so common as to reach the point of certainty.

the purpose of locks, is to make entry or theft inconvenient.

[garhkal]

Firearms, ideally you want at least two layers of protection. A locked gun cabinet, again with key or combo secured yo both the wall and floor is ideal. Having it further secured in a closet with a security door and frame, with a gpod lock will deal with most common issues.

Sort of putting a safe INside another safe..

Electronic locks have been around long enough that calling it a 'trend' is a little short sighted.

And for someone to have that master pass code, they would need to know exactly what type of lock/safe you have. If whoever has that much information about you, you have bigger problems than the type and brand of lock.

True that.. Plus they'd need to know WHERE your safe is!

[Prospernia]

Also, check with your home-owner's insurance to see what they require.

[Cannonshop]

Also, check with your home-owner's insurance to see what they require.

THAT is a really good point.  Check your policy (whether homeowner's, or renter's) to see what the company's willing to cover, because you may find that what you're using isn't enough to have decent coverage in the event of loss or theft.

which, in turn, can get you a better idea of what the security experts working for the corporation that doesn't want to pay money out think is minimum secure storage.  (greed can be a wonderful measure for evaluating this sort of thing-specifically the sort of greed that pays analysts to find ways not to pay out on insurance claims.)

[ImperialistDog]

Till you get to actual safe doors taken from old banks that you concrete into a structural safe they're all more a suggestion to keep out than anything else.  It's why the really valuable things in my home aren't in a safe, they're in an ordinary container in a closet I can grab and run with quick in an emergency.  Let any idiot robbers try to steal my office safe and carry it off, has nothing but old paperwork in it.  The gun safe on the other hand, best security is just to electrify the outer case with house current.  Anybody who doesn't know to turn off the hidden switch first is gonna smell the bacon. 

[Cannonshop]

Till you get to actual safe doors taken from old banks that you concrete into a structural safe they're all more a suggestion to keep out than anything else.  It's why the really valuable things in my home aren't in a safe, they're in an ordinary container in a closet I can grab and run with quick in an emergency.  Let any idiot robbers try to steal my office safe and carry it off, has nothing but old paperwork in it.  The gun safe on the other hand, best security is just to electrify the outer case with house current.  Anybody who doesn't know to turn off the hidden switch first is gonna smell the bacon.

The problem with lethal traps is liability in the event of fire or legitimate actions by state actors.  There are laws in some areas forbidding that sort of booby-trap, and electrifying at below-fatal levels doesn't work well as a deterrent except against curious children.

Your homeowner's insurance will definitely not pay out in such a situation, and you could find yourself facing felony charges and through that, losing your right to bear arms.

IOW before you start rigging your house with killer traps, you might want to float the idea to your lawyer and make sure there aren't legal precedents or laws in your area that make that a seriously bad idea.

[SteelRaven]

The gun safe on the other hand, best security is just to electrify the outer case with house current.  Anybody who doesn't know to turn off the hidden switch first is gonna smell the bacon.

... This is when I'll ask the OP to start asking else where for advise on the subject.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm pretty sure running a current that strong through your safe is also a major fire hazard.

[ImperialistDog]

... This is when I'll ask the OP to start asking else where for advise on the subject.

It's certainly not legal everywhere, it is legal where I live because it falls under the same rules as taser based car security systems.  Basically while it has the potential to be lethal, you would have to intentionally continue holding onto the safe for it to be lethal.  Otherwise it is a very painful deterrent that will leave you with some harsh electrical burns. 

As to the fire hazard aspects, that varies from safe to safe.  My safe is an old antique rolling bank safe I got years ago.  Thing is an iron shell, then four inches of refractory ceramic, then another iron shell.  The ceramic inner fire protection layer acts as very good eletrical insulation and I had a bit more work done to isolate the inner and outer shells electrically, so that while the outer shell and door are electrified the inner lining is not.

Still I would absolutely tell anybody considering any such system to check with a lawyer regarding the legality in your State and have a professional electrician familiar with electrical security systems or electrical anti-bear deterrents to do the work.  High amperage electricity is not something to mess around with for the untrained and inexperienced.

[ActionButler]

**MOD NOTICE**

The electrified safe conversation stops now.

OP asked an excellent question and, as a fellow gun owner, I have personally enjoyed following the replies since I only have experience with old schools safes. This will not, however, become a conversation about the legality and logistics of booby trapping your own home.

The thread is staying unlocked and no posts are being pulled for now since most everyone is appropriately engaging in the spirit of the thing. That is not a guarantee that posts won’t be pulled in the future after the mods have time to discuss.

[Cannonshop]

Till you get to actual safe doors taken from old banks that you concrete into a structural safe they're all more a suggestion to keep out than anything else.  It's why the really valuable things in my home aren't in a safe, they're in an ordinary container in a closet I can grab and run with quick in an emergency.  Let any idiot robbers try to steal my office safe and carry it off, has nothing but old paperwork in it.  The gun safe on the other hand, best security is just to electrify the outer case with house current.  Anybody who doesn't know to turn off the hidden switch first is gonna smell the bacon.

kind of my point; it's not going to stop a professional, dedicated criminal, even the concrete/bank safe door isn't, if it's a criminal who thinks he can get a reward equal to the effort.  (also, that shit is Ehx-PENNN-sive.)

Generally speaking, the 'suggestion' to stay out is a good suggestion for a number of opportunistic reasons, including homes with young people in them, or where young people are likely to visit, as well as because sometimes with an insurer (and you SHOULD be insuring at least some of your guns, if they're valuable-ish or your holding them to resell as investments) you can get either a discount on your premiums, or you can get coverage in your state for having a secure lockup.

A locking cabinet (let's face it, most affordable 'gun safes' are just locking cabinets) also provides for a nice way to keep them stored and keep them nice when you're not knocking about with them in the outside.  (this is because you can do things to improve climate control, like using those bags of silica to reduce humidity inside the safe...)

Depending on how much you want to spend, you can get some decent (but not in any way foolproof, sorry...) security using relatively cheap, simple, locking cabinet type "Gun Safes" if they're secured properly and you bother to maintain them.  (*everything like this has some maintenance involved, even if it's just adding a drop of 3 in 1 oil to the lock and hinges.)

whatever it is you end up buying, it's advisable to RTFM.  (Read the Frikking Manual) and note the 'advised' portions as 'you really ought to do this'.

The biggest security move you can make, is knowing you need to make a security move, then making it.  It doesn't matter if it's electronic, combination, or Key based, as long as you DO IT.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The thing about stealing gun safes is that yes, it technically can be done, but if you've got a big, heavy safe that weighs 100 pounds empty, is the average burglar going to carry it off instead of stealing your TV and some jewelry?

[Cannonshop]

The thing about stealing gun safes is that yes, it technically can be done, but if you've got a big, heavy safe that weighs 100 pounds empty, is the average burglar going to carry it off instead of stealing your TV and some jewelry?

which kinda works to my point-if it's inconvenient, they'll leave it, so making it inconvenient as possible (within your budget) is generally a good idea.

Most "Pros" aren't going to be looking at hitting small residential anyway-they're going to go after someone with lots of stuff they can make money from, most things like gun-safes are more for deterring opportunists and amatuers.

a guy who's got glass crawlies in his veins and wants another hit is going to go for opportunity scores, not heavy labor, so if you make it require skill and/or strength to make off with your valuables? he's going to take less than if it's convenient or low effort.

[garhkal]

The thing about stealing gun safes is that yes, it technically can be done, but if you've got a big, heavy safe that weighs 100 pounds empty, is the average burglar going to carry it off instead of stealing your TV and some jewelry?

Let alone do they have the tools to even try to GET it out.

[Prospernia]

Let alone do they have the tools to even try to GET it out.

You'd need a Refer-dolly to get it out; not many thieves carry one of those when they break into a house.

[Cannonshop]

You'd need a Refer-dolly to get it out; not many thieves carry one of those when they break into a house.

which is what makes "Has one at all" very useful.  The next step up being "less easy to break into than to move".  again, the safe isn't going to stop a dedicated professional with the right tools and ample time, but it's going to stop Junkie Jim or Tweaker Todd, whom are both far more likely to make the attempt on you unless you're Bill Gates.

after that, it's almost a matter of your personal level of paranoia, relative fame and value of your collection, and perimeter security to keep unwanted people OUT of your house.  The safe's the last step behind locked doors and windows, not the only security you've got (one should hope).

[garhkal]

after that, it's almost a matter of your personal level of paranoia, relative fame and value of your collection, and perimeter security to keep unwanted people OUT of your house.  The safe's the last step behind locked doors and windows, not the only security you've got (one should hope).

Very true.  Most crooks will look for the Easiest house to break into..  Unless they're career criminals with a specific score in mind.

[guardiandashi]

its not directly a gun safe thing but my step father worked as a full service driver for a soda company, stocking vending machines.

there were incidents with the vending machines that indicated there were 4 different groups/gangs robbing them.
1 you drive up and the machine is visibly damaged (pried open with crow bars or equivalent)
2 you drive up and the machine is saying its out of product, the driver unlocks it, and there is no product OR money in the machine.
3 you drive up and there is no machine present.
4 you are going around your route and around 1-5 ish stops before you head back to the facility, the truck gets broken into and the contents of the "drop safe" are taken

one thing to consider for safe placement is its going to depend heavily on your homes construction. one question is do you have any "dead spaces" in the building.
for instance, I have a spot where there is a cupboard built into a wall in a hallway. in the bedroom adjacent to the hallway, there is a closet.  there is a "dead space" on top of the cupboard and below the roof, that I had considered putting a camouflaged access and putting a small safe inside.

another one would be like in the harry potter movies, where Harry's room was in the "dead space" under the staircase. something like that might not be a horrible place to put a safe.
the point is to use a combination of obscurity, and security when possible, without going all Mr. and Mrs smith movie.

[Prospernia]

As for the OP, E-lock or manual, why not a retinal-scanner?  What could go wrong?