Author Topic: Cached Orions- refit or not?  (Read 5677 times)

JadeHellbringer

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Cached Orions- refit or not?
« on: 13 April 2018, 12:44:48 »
When the Exodus departed, they brought enormous amounts of military equipment with them- so much that caches are still being opened even by the time of the Wars of Reaving by some Clans (and perhaps beyond, who knows?). Safe to say that the Orion was a design that went along in at least decent numbers, being a popular design and not uncommon in the SLDF. (Yes, Kerensky's wasn't among them, that's well-known).

My question is, with the Orion's special historical place in the Clans, would they receive special treatment when one is brought out of a cache? We've seen the 'C' refits from the old Twycross book, refits of IS designs with Clan weaponry for solhama units (Atlas, Victor, Warhammer, etc.)- would an Orion get such a treatment, or would it still be a waste of resources to do so and end up still using stock equipment? Curious about your thoughts on such a thing- a small writing project hit a snag upon the realization that I wasn't sure just how upgraded such a machine might look.

And before someone brings up the IIC, that appears to be a new design based closely on the Orion, NOT a refit of older machines (and even then, only available to one of the twenty Clans), so it's not what I'm asking about here. Refits to original-style Orions, not the IIC.
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snewsom2997

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #1 on: 13 April 2018, 13:36:12 »
There is a C Variant from the Wolf Empire, that started as a Marik Version.

Sarna states that they were used in the Golden Century even though overshadowed by Omnis, but that Clan Wolf was the only Clan to Upgrade them. Clan commanders gifted them would take one over an Omni or an Assualt mech.

As far as what a Clanner might do to his or her Orion, Swapping Std Lasers of ER or Pulse, Adding Artemis to the LRMs and replacing SRMs with Streaks, and using an Ultra or LB-X autocannon.




JadeHellbringer

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #2 on: 13 April 2018, 13:39:28 »
See I knew about the bit from the IIC writeup about their honored status with warriors- that's what got me thinking about this- but I wasn't aware of the 'C' version. Where's that at? (I don't have books on me at work, but usually I'm at least aware of something like that.)
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Decoy

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #3 on: 13 April 2018, 13:42:51 »
It's in 3150. It states that it's basically a Clan Tech ON-2M Orion. Ferro-Lamellor armor, Gauss Rifle, SLRM 15 and ER Pulse lasers

Empyrus

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #4 on: 13 April 2018, 13:44:40 »
Quote from: TRO3060, Orion IIC entry
Out of respect for the Great Father, the Clans maintained the design for several decades despite the invention of  newer  technologies.

It then adds that only the Clan Wolf modified the design, creating the Orion IIC.

Based on that, i'm thinking that the Clans didn't do anything special to the Orions. Yes, it was a special 'Mech in that it was Kerensky's 'Mech, but 'Mechs are meant for battle, and not using it would be waste. I mean, would using it for spare parts or melting it for scrap be a more fitting fate? I figure they used them while maintaining them in as good shape as they could. Presumably all Orions have been used up among the Clans, by the time of the Wars of Reaving if nothing else since that saw opening of the all remaining Brian Caches if i recall correctly.

Maybe individuals might have upgraded or modified their Orion's with Clan tech. But i don't think they bothered with standardized conversions.


EDIT Thhe Orion C dates from the late Dark Age and is the result of the Wolf Empire building Orions (the later models) equipped with Clan tech. No record sheet yet, thanks to lack of RS 3150 NTNU.

Maingunnery

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #5 on: 13 April 2018, 14:32:00 »

The Orion is a very good mech, easy to keep running and a bit explosive....

The Pentagon Wars might have put a large dent in the number of Orion's.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #6 on: 13 April 2018, 14:41:36 »
OK, so that Clan Orion then is a post-3140 design then and NOT a refit in the Kerensky Cluster then? It matters for this, I'm dealing with about 3059ish here, so if that design is several decades and half a universe away that's important.
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Empyrus

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #7 on: 13 April 2018, 15:10:51 »
OK, so that Clan Orion then is a post-3140 design then and NOT a refit in the Kerensky Cluster then?
Yup. No need to think about that.
It matters for this, I'm dealing with about 3059ish here, so if that design is several decades and half a universe away that's important.

I honestly wonder if there are any Orions left in the Clan space by that time. Maybe in Brian Caches. But... well, i'd imagine the Clans mostly stored good 'Mechs, Royals and the like. As special as the Orion is being Kerensky's ride, i don't think it rates "good" here. The Orion is very old after all, dating from 2525 in its K variant, and it never got any (official) Star League upgrades.

But, if there are some, they probably could be refitted with Clan tech, despite the nominal reverence for the design. Not sure who we are talking about here, but i can see Blood Spirits or the like using them either as they are or with refits for bolstering their ranks.

Sharpnel

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #8 on: 13 April 2018, 20:50:21 »
It's in 3150. It states that it's basically a Clan Tech ON-2M Orion. Ferro-Lamellor armor, Gauss Rifle, SLRM 15 and ER Pulse lasers
So it's a full-on cheese platter of a Mech.
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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #9 on: 13 April 2018, 21:54:41 »
I think they would, but one that is not terribly difficult,but maybe a bot more than the effort spent on other old Mechs.  Mainly upgrading weapons, and then going with double heat sinks (free ones, in the engine)--and this is the part where the heritage of the Orion is needed to justify the upgrade.  It would place this refit above the other cache upgraded mechs that didn't get a DHS upgrade, maybe making it suitable for the commanders of those type units, able to keep up near full firepower constantly in combat.

LB 10 X replaces with AC 10, 2 tons ammo, cluster and slug. Similar ammo endurance, adds versatility.
LRM 20 replaces the 15, 3 tons of ammo--to keep close to the original Orion's ammo endurance.
Streak 6 replaces the SRM 4, with one ton of ammo. 15 shots with a streak will last more than long enough.
2 ER mediums replace mediums.
Saved two tons go to double heat sinks, everything is in the engine--the only difficult refit, but it makes the mech worth refitting. If not..well, 12 heat sinks are still better than 10.

I'm not sure if Clan CASE can be done as a quick refit for upgraded machines. If not, I could actually see maybe one less DHS to pay for old Star League CASE tech.

The stock equipment removed could easily go to parts storage for use on other old Mechs.


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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #10 on: 13 April 2018, 22:01:23 »
just threw one thru Megameklab

simple upgrades
same frame, same engine, clan double sinks
ferro  armor

Orion ON1-K
Clan advanced
75 tons 
BV: 2,004
Cost: 4,382,939,750 C-bills

Movement: 4/6
Engine: 300
Heat Sinks: 14 [28]
Gyro: Standard Gyro

Internal: 114
Armor: 231/231 (Ferro-Fibrous)
                     Internal    Armor
--------------------------------------
Head                        3        9
Center Torso               23       36
Center Torso (rear)                 10
Right Torso                16       22
Right Torso (rear)                  10
Left Torso                 16       22
Left Torso (rear)                   10
Right Arm                  12       24
Left Arm                   12       24
Right Leg                  16       32
Left Leg                   16       32

Weapon                         Loc  Heat
----------------------------------------
LB 10-X AC                      RT     2
LRM 20                          LT     6
SRM 4                           RA     3
SRM 4                           LA     3
ER Medium Laser                 RA     5
ER Medium Laser                 LA     5
ER Medium Laser                 CT     5

Ammo                           Loc Shots
----------------------------------------
LB 10-X AC Ammo                 RT    10
LB 10-X AC Ammo                 RT    10
LRM 20 Ammo                     LT     6
LRM 20 Ammo                     LT     6
SRM 4 Ammo                      LA    25
SRM 4 Ammo                      RA    25









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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #11 on: 14 April 2018, 00:07:02 »
Orion ON1-K

There is already a ON1-K... Kerensky's personal ride.

I'm pretty sure most clanners would want to replicate the Great Father's personal ride, but with clan tech.

Gauss, ER PPC, SRM-6 w/ Artemis, 2x ERML, CASE and more SHS ( clan based ) possible an ERSL for the half ton?

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Empyrus

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #12 on: 14 April 2018, 06:56:35 »
ON1-K is the basic Orion model.
Kerensky's ride is designated (out of universe) ON1-K (Kerensky). Presumably it has no in-universe designation, it seems rare for customized rides to have those.

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #13 on: 14 April 2018, 10:06:55 »
My gut says that Orions hold a special place in the Clans' hearts. If an Orion were to be assigned to a warrior the decision might be made carefully. Getting one might be a special honor. It might be your ticket out of a second-line force or the nod of approval to go out in a blaze of glory. A second-line commander might look to one of these if he couldn't swing an OmniMech his way. The Clans probably don't have too many of these things lying around so if someone is in one you better believe they're at least a shade better than his peers. I imagine coming across a Clanner in an Orion is a solemn moment. Defeating one is probably a way for both to get a line in The Remembrance - a win-win situation. An Inner Sphere freebirth in one might drive Clanners mad and cause them to ignore all else until they've removed the surat from its cockpit....

Empyrus

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #14 on: 14 April 2018, 13:17:49 »
I doubt the Orion would be that special.

A note on their maintenance: Inner Sphere standard weapons went largely extinct among the Clans circa 2850 per Interstellar Operations, with some more advanced pieces lasting somewhat longer. I interpret this as their manufacturing being stopped completely by this time. They probably have caches of those, since several Clans maintain old Star League-tech 'Mechs in their second-line forces, but these are ultimately limited resources.

With this in mind, the Clan preference toward more advanced SL designs when they have to use them, i'm inclined to think basically all original Orions among the Clans have been used up. Early on, they may have had special value assigned to them, like them being given to ristars etc, perhaps with right to upgrade them a bit, but used all the same.
This might explain partially why Wolf Clan created the Orion IIC. Not only was it General Kerensky's ride, their existing Orion stocks might have been drying up.

EDIT Do note the phrasing in TRO3060: " Out of respect for the Great Father, the Clans maintained the design for several decades despite the invention of newer technologies."
"Several decades", which in my opinion implies they stopped at some point, or simply ran out of Orions.
« Last Edit: 14 April 2018, 13:21:58 by Empyrus »

Hellraiser

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #15 on: 14 April 2018, 13:58:41 »
JHB, 

The fluff says they maintained the Orions out of respect to the Father....... So I would think that a good # of them were used in early battles & were destroyed, but some can still be around & being maintained in caches or garrison forces.

Also we know Clan Wolf is the only one to come up with a "standard" upgrade in the Orion-IIC......  So, if you did happen across one I would think a good place to look for inspiration is the rules from Klondike about Officers getting to tweak their rides as Hybrids w/ newly developed Clan/Pre-Clan technologies.

I'd keep it repair bay grade as using a factory seems a bit of a waste of resources in clan society.

In 3059,  the clear option is to start out with 11 DHS to resolve the Orion's heat issues.

Basic weapon swaps seems most appropriate given what we saw of the "Twycross-C's" of the same era.

Check my math but I think a pair of MPLs,  Streak-4,  Ultra-10,  & LRM20+Art4 will match the remaining weapons weight while increasing firepower across all ranges.

No CASE & keeping the maxed out Standard Armor keep this thing from being too cheesy.
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grimlock1

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #16 on: 14 April 2018, 14:00:57 »
Without doing a full tear down and rebuild to change the engine or skeleton, I kinda like this.  It's thematically an Orion, but just like some many aspiring gearheads and car tuners who added a spoiler and racing stripes to their car even though they couldn't afford the engine mods, this one upgrades to ER Larges, just like those sexy Orion IIC's.


Code: [Select]
Orion ON1-K

Mass: 75 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-C-A
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 7,714,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,956

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    2  (CL) ER Large Lasers
    1  (CL) LRM-15
    1  (CL) LB 10-X AC
    1  (CL) SRM-4
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                     114 points                7.50
Engine:             Fusion Engine                300                      19.00
    Walking MP: 4
    Running MP: 6
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         (CL) Double Heat Sink        13(26)                    3.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA    R: SH+UA+LA
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV - 230                 12.00
    Armor Locations: 1 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 LA, 1 RA, 1 LL, 1 RL

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     23           36       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  9         
                                           L/R Torso     16           24       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  8         
                                             L/R Arm     12           24       
                                             L/R Leg     16           32       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CL) ER Large Laser                          RA        12        1         4.00
(CL) ER Large Laser                          LA        12        1         4.00
(CL) SRM-4                                   RT        3         1         1.00
(CL) LRM-15                                  RT        5         2         3.50
(CL) LB 10-X AC                              LT        2         5        10.00
@LRM-15 (16)                                 RT        -         2         2.00
@SRM-4 (25)                                  RT        -         1         1.00
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (20)                      LT        -         2         2.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 25

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      8    Points: 20
4          4       4       3       0      3     1   Structure:  6
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1, FLK 1/1/1

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #17 on: 15 April 2018, 18:19:07 »
OK, so that Clan Orion then is a post-3140 design then and NOT a refit in the Kerensky Cluster then? It matters for this, I'm dealing with about 3059ish here, so if that design is several decades and half a universe away that's important.

This bumps into my problem with the Clans running 'stock' SL designs . . . they have for decades been producing Clan spec DHS, XL engines and weapons.  Why would they have also been producing SL spec weapons for their secondline machines?  It rubs against that waste aspect.  They would IMO have stockpiles of Star League weapons from battlefield salvage, scrapped systems (its a waste of time to put this Stalker back together, just rip out the parts and transfer them to the depot.  We will melt down everything else.), and what had already been stockpiled in the caches (look, its pallets and pallets of packaged Magnastar PPCs on sublevel 15).  So it's 3042 and if Mechwarrior Skippy's vintage Griffin 2N has lots its IS ERPPC in a Trial and the techs have none in stock . . . well, Star Commander Javier 'donates' one of the IS ERPPC off his Marauder 2R which just so coincidentally gets replaced by a refurbished Clan ERPPC handed down from some frontline cluster.  The bloodnamed warrior who sent it to the refurb yard could not stand the fact a enemy laser had knicked the focusing tube housing.

This view is supported by the percentages displayed in places like FMU where some units ended up with more than 100%- 20% Omni/60% Clan/50% IS or something like that when looked at closely.  The example given was that it could be some Star League Black Knight that had a Clan ERSL on the chassis, and that be the only piece of Clan weaponry, and yet it still counted as both 'Clan' tech and 'IS' tech.

And if Star Commander Javier is smart, he is telling his techs to slap another DHS on the mech- or maybe another ton of ammo to go rapid fire!
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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #18 on: 15 April 2018, 18:43:52 »
While I don't necessarily disagree Colt, I would point out that almost all of those Over 100% units are IS.

It represents the best of the IS forces that happen to have some captured clan mechs or hybrid refits from Bulldog or other actions.

You almost never see that hybrid tech issue with clan clusters & IIRC, the ones that you do are things like Bear/Kurita boarder units after the first war when they had lots of IS salvage that found its way into clan clusters.

Most of the Clan garrison clusters are split up to total 100% exactly,  something like 20% Clan / 80% SLDF, etc etc.

I do like your idea of salvage yarding IS/SL tech units to explain why there isn't more hybrid units running around.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #19 on: 16 April 2018, 00:02:29 »
I know most of them in FMU were IS units, but access to SL spec parts before the Invasion would have had to be getting sparse . . . maybe afterwards I can see it, but when the Diamond Sharks built units to sell to the IS they used old problematic Clan parts- like the Gauss Rifles for Mad Cat Mk II that had been located in stockpiles rather than used for Omnis.
Colt Ward
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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #20 on: 16 April 2018, 03:41:56 »
I actually got the impression from the text in TRO3060 that the Orion IIC was a rebuild of old Orions.
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TigerShark

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #21 on: 16 April 2018, 11:44:16 »
This would depend on the era and the Clan.

In the earliest bits of Clan history, when OminMechs were rare (or nonexistent), it's safe to say that 'Mechs would be upgraded using the latest tech. They were, after all, the only 'Mechs they had and had yet to be relegated to second-line status. The Coyotl debuted in 2854 as the first OmniMech, but the Clan ER PPC was devised in 2826 (Clan-spec LRM-15 in 2824) So an ON1-K would probably (almost certainly) have had equivalent armament strapped to it like a "C" refit during the period between 2824 and 2854.

Even beyond that time, no Clan had acquired OmniMechs instantaneously. They trialed for them once/year, as per agreement in Clan Council. It wasn't until 2863 that Jade Falcon acquired this tech and 2873 for Clan Ghost Bear. That means that there was a 50-year gap in which they were fielding vintage or upgraded units. I severely doubt they were fielding Inner Sphere technology this entire time; it's more likely that the new Clan-spec weapons were quickly added to these 'Mechs for performance reasons.

But once OmniMechs became available, it would have either been sent to garrisons or stored in a brian cache, with other Star League vintage units. Some Clans (Steel Viper) had been among the last to acquire OmniMech technology, and would probably have a lot more of these "C" variants in storage.
« Last Edit: 16 April 2018, 12:06:11 by TigerShark »
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Hellraiser

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #22 on: 16 April 2018, 13:14:33 »
The only problem I see with your theory TS is that it wasn't just Omni's or SLDF cast offs.

You had standard mechs in that era that were built with Clan tech from the start.   

So while its certainly possible to see some refits a lot of the newer tech is going to be factory builds from the ground up.

You basically have the entirety of TRO 3055/58/60 standard clan mechs to choose from in the 2800's

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #23 on: 16 April 2018, 13:55:21 »
The only problem I see with your theory TS is that it wasn't just Omni's or SLDF cast offs.

You had standard mechs in that era that were built with Clan tech from the start.   

So while its certainly possible to see some refits a lot of the newer tech is going to be factory builds from the ground up.

You basically have the entirety of TRO 3055/58/60 standard clan mechs to choose from in the 2800's
Untrue. Check. the intro dates :) From 2825 - 2869, the only 'Mechs produced for Clan Jade Falcon (as an example) are Locust IIC 2, Matador, Conjurer, Hunchback IIC, Marauder IIC, and the Kraken. (see the masterunitlist)

Pretty sure their touman had more units going around than just those, don't you think?
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snewsom2997

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #24 on: 16 April 2018, 14:12:04 »
I actually got the impression from the text in TRO3060 that the Orion IIC was a rebuild of old Orions.

I do as well, just like Overlord Cs and Union Cs, when they ran out of leftovers they switched to new production.

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #25 on: 16 April 2018, 15:26:00 »
Untrue. Check. the intro dates :) From 2825 - 2869, the only 'Mechs produced for Clan Jade Falcon (as an example) are Locust IIC 2, Matador, Conjurer, Hunchback IIC, Marauder IIC, and the Kraken. (see the masterunitlist)

Pretty sure their touman had more units going around than just those, don't you think?

Now remove Jade Falcon only for production.

Clan General is a huge list.  Not every mech is produced by the Falcons.  They actually do buy, trade, or trial for mechs from other factions which makes up the general list.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #26 on: 16 April 2018, 15:28:18 »
I do as well, just like Overlord Cs and Union Cs, when they ran out of leftovers they switched to new production.

Well the "40 Mech" version for Klondike seemed to be a refit of existing Overlords but they eventually created the full on C model that was new production at 45 mech cluster strength.
The C model was created 8 years after Klondike based on their new TO&E.
I'd assume it was a slow gradual replacement of old versions as new ones became available.
Also shifting original models to 2nd line units.
Finally the old ones make great combined arms carriers.
Dropping at Overlord down to 30 Mechs, 10 Fighters & 15 BAP Points leaves you with a small amount of extra cargo room & then you only need a Carrier (or 2) & Union-C to fill out a decent sized cluster.


« Last Edit: 16 April 2018, 15:31:48 by Hellraiser »
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #27 on: 16 April 2018, 15:42:09 »
Clan General is a huge list.  Not every mech is produced by the Falcons.  They actually do buy, trade, or trial for mechs from other factions which makes up the general list.
Yep, a lot of OmniMechs are in production by multiple Clans, the most notable one is the Stormcrow (which is in production by almost any Clan that can afford it).
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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #28 on: 16 April 2018, 17:15:50 »
Now remove Jade Falcon only for production.

Clan General is a huge list.  Not every mech is produced by the Falcons.  They actually do buy, trade, or trial for mechs from other factions which makes up the general list.
Yes, it's a massive list. But "Clan General" doesn't mean that, since day 1 of the Clans' formation, they automatically had access to every single unit on the list. Your argument is that they "trialed for them." Using what?

By 2835, there were only 8 Clan technology designs being produced, across the entire Homeworlds and 20 Clans (well.. 19 after Widowmaker). At the time, these were still exclusive to their parent Clan until production was traded or trialed for. Or the entire set of plans was won in a Trial of Possession and a factory built.

That means the majority of the Touman (or vast majority, really) was still populated with vintage Royals and by the few factories they'd created in the Homeworlds to reproduce them (Firefly -SLE, for example). It makes very little sense to me that the Clan ER PPC was being made for 10 years as of 2835 and you'd still have a bog standard GRF-1N running around in trials.

The fact that we have stats for weapons like the "Clan Interim" quality arms tells us that they were deployed in stages. But on what? Just because there is no TRO detailing a 'Mech sporting a Clan Interim Medium Pulse doesn't mean it was never fielded in combat. More likely than not, it was just installed in the place of a standard IS Pulse as an upgrade, don't you think?
« Last Edit: 16 April 2018, 17:25:24 by TigerShark »
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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #29 on: 16 April 2018, 18:53:32 »
It makes very little sense to me that the Clan ER PPC was being made for 10 years as of 2835 and you'd still have a bog standard GRF-1N running around in trials.
While I don't disagree, the fact is there is lots of canon material that doesn't support that.

We have scenario rosters that just have basic SLDF mechs on them & we have 3067 rosters that still don't show lots of hybrid tech in those clusters.

"Customizing" their ride isn't supposed to be something that every warrior does. 
Natasha gets a Widowmaker,  MW Jimbob gets a Direwolf-Prime/A/B.
We don't see everyone swapping out their MPL for 2 ERMLs just because its more damage that way.  Etc etc.

Making that ERPPC-c work on a Griffin-1N platform now means I also have to refit it with DHS.
Which means more time on a chassis that still lacks CASE & will get blown sky high on an ammo crit.

There will be exceptions but I'm thinking the majority of ERPPCs are being used for the Whammer & Marauder IIC models that need 5 of them per pair produced.

Standard Armor, Structure, & Heatsinks are still used on many mechs/tanks/fighters so those aren't in short supply.
So it just comes down to replacing the weapons if you eventually run out & they had divisions & divisions of gear that was stored in brian caches when they decommissioned 3/4 of the SLDF. 

This all assumes that you have to replace it, you can just fix the damaged one as long as it wasn't totally destroyed.

There are rules in Klondike for some tweaking of mechs for officers & they don't involve massive rebuilds.
I'd say uses those for your "hero" units & everyone else is still packing the "Standard" model of said unit.
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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #30 on: 16 April 2018, 20:10:13 »
While I don't disagree, the fact is there is lots of canon material that doesn't support that.

We have scenario rosters that just have basic SLDF mechs on them & we have 3067 rosters that still don't show lots of hybrid tech in those clusters.

"Customizing" their ride isn't supposed to be something that every warrior does. 
Natasha gets a Widowmaker,  MW Jimbob gets a Direwolf-Prime/A/B.
We don't see everyone swapping out their MPL for 2 ERMLs just because its more damage that way.  Etc etc.

Making that ERPPC-c work on a Griffin-1N platform now means I also have to refit it with DHS.
Which means more time on a chassis that still lacks CASE & will get blown sky high on an ammo crit.

There will be exceptions but I'm thinking the majority of ERPPCs are being used for the Whammer & Marauder IIC models that need 5 of them per pair produced.

Standard Armor, Structure, & Heatsinks are still used on many mechs/tanks/fighters so those aren't in short supply.
So it just comes down to replacing the weapons if you eventually run out & they had divisions & divisions of gear that was stored in brian caches when they decommissioned 3/4 of the SLDF. 

This all assumes that you have to replace it, you can just fix the damaged one as long as it wasn't totally destroyed.

There are rules in Klondike for some tweaking of mechs for officers & they don't involve massive rebuilds.
I'd say uses those for your "hero" units & everyone else is still packing the "Standard" model of said unit.
Until we have more Golden Century material, I don't think this'll be answered. So "whatever works on your table," as usual.
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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #31 on: 16 April 2018, 20:39:05 »
I know most of them in FMU were IS units, but access to SL spec parts before the Invasion would have had to be getting sparse . . . maybe afterwards I can see it, but when the Diamond Sharks built units to sell to the IS they used old problematic Clan parts- like the Gauss Rifles for Mad Cat Mk II that had been located in stockpiles rather than used for Omnis.
Consider this: wasn't the FM:U introduced before the concept of Royal designs? Presumably one part of FM:U to be itself updated would be the RATS for 3067 to include Royals in the 2nd line Clan RAT's, as well as being expanded the die roll ranges from 11 to 18~20)

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #32 on: 17 April 2018, 13:19:15 »
For some fluff, and out of respect to the Great Father - what if they use them hard until they die in battle, and then recycle them (back to raw metal if need be) to reuse in further mech construction?

Mind you, specifically melting down the IS and Armor (or what you will) of a Mech and sending that metal off to production facilities might not be super time/cash efficient compared to mining... but it both fits the Clan ‘efficiency with limited resources’ ethos and harkens to taking the genetic material of their successes to build future generations.

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #33 on: 17 April 2018, 16:35:20 »
Outfitting old SLDF units with Klondike tech would seem a better usage of old weapons being replaced until better tech comes along.

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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #34 on: 17 April 2018, 23:21:54 »
Personally, I could easily see the Clans going the C route if they had the materials available. The upgrades in the Twycross book were worthy of such attentions despite most of those designs lacking any additional significance beyond being SLDF designs (the mighty steed of the great DeChavilier obviously not withstanding), so I can't help but think the Great Father's own BattleMech class wouldn't see similar.

And as it was a Clan as hidebound and traditionalist as the Jade Falcons that we first see deploying the C models, I think an Orion C would be well within reason. How was it worded? Something like "Saying that the Clans will not return to Terra is like suggesting that the sun will not rise tomorrow or that Clan Jade Falcon has forgotten the words of the Great Kerenskys." The Kerensky worship is certainly there.  :fine_print:
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Re: Cached Orions- refit or not?
« Reply #35 on: 18 April 2018, 01:38:45 »
Personally, I could easily see the Clans going the C route if they had the materials available. The upgrades in the Twycross book were worthy of such attentions despite most of those designs lacking any additional significance beyond being SLDF designs (the mighty steed of the great DeChavilier obviously not withstanding), so I can't help but think the Great Father's own BattleMech class wouldn't see similar.

And as it was a Clan as hidebound and traditionalist as the Jade Falcons that we first see deploying the C models, I think an Orion C would be well within reason. How was it worded? Something like "Saying that the Clans will not return to Terra is like suggesting that the sun will not rise tomorrow or that Clan Jade Falcon has forgotten the words of the Great Kerenskys." The Kerensky worship is certainly there.  :fine_print:
That's certainly my thoughts. The Clans upgraded salvaged machines with Clan tech when they were in need of war materiel. There's no indication that this was abhorrent to the Grand Council, or anything new. Hard to believe that 3050 was the first year they got the bright idea of installing Clan technology ER PPCs to a Thug's frame. Or swapping out an LB-X in place of the Orion's AC/10. Seems wasteful that they'd create a production line to supply ammunition to outdated equipment, no? Standard ACs didn't exist in anything currently produced in the Clan Touman. So when they pulled an ON1-K or HBK-4G from storage... what was it armed with? Where'd the ammunition come from?
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