Author Topic: Freeborn warrior candidate questions  (Read 3417 times)

rebs

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #30 on: 24 August 2023, 16:38:14 »
Hell, Alaric tossed some of those aside well before Terra: murdering Seth Ward to steal the Khanship and blaming it on the Lyrans springs instantly to mind.

Agreed.  Alaric is no Clan Purist.  It's not in his genes, lol...
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wantec

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #31 on: 25 August 2023, 14:05:28 »
Hell, Alaric tossed some of those aside well before Terra: murdering Seth Ward to steal the Khanship and blaming it on the Lyrans springs instantly to mind.
That kind of thing is far from unique to Alaric within the Clans. During the Wars of Reaving it happened in a Grand Council session with one Khan strait murdering another unarmed Khan. The Falcons basically did that to Ulric with the indirect LRM fire. Then Vlad did it to the Falcon Khans in the Grand Council chambers. It typically only seems to be a problem if there are witnesses.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #32 on: 25 August 2023, 14:16:24 »
That kind of thing is far from unique to Alaric within the Clans. During the Wars of Reaving it happened in a Grand Council session with one Khan strait murdering another unarmed Khan. The Falcons basically did that to Ulric with the indirect LRM fire. Then Vlad did it to the Falcon Khans in the Grand Council chambers. It typically only seems to be a problem if there are witnesses.

I didn't say it was unique, but it certainly falls squarely into "exception to the rule" territory. But neither of those other examples really compare to Alaric killing Seth Ward. That was unequivocally a straight-up murder, with no pretense of a Trial.

Brett Andrews killing Stanislov N'Buta is an interesting example, because when Andrews killed Angus Labov (also with a weapon and also in the Grand Council chambers), it wasn't looked at the same way. My guess is that it's because he used a laser pistol instead of the ceremonial weapons that they're allowed to keep on their person. If only he'd thrown his knife again...

The Falcons killing Ulric was a breach of zellbrigen, absolutely, but it certainly wasn't a murder by Clan standards. Neither was what Vlad did to Crichell.
« Last Edit: 25 August 2023, 14:24:59 by tassa_kay »
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #33 on: 29 August 2023, 08:35:07 »
This whole system begs the question how the Ilclan will shape the Inner Sphere. While each state has a form of "caste system" (the Confederation especially but in other states your heritage basically gives a guideline where you might end) you still have the possibility of social mobility (upwards or downwards) based on your ability. Simply strapping this system over it will imho not work. The Ravens have perhaps one of the extremes by simply letting the Outworlds do their thing as long as the Ravens lead but even the most integrated (the Bears) have still parts of their old ways. I mean for example in our time you might start your career as a plumber but you could work your way up to a business owner in said industry or perhaps even achieve something else (and you have the freedom to do so).

C: WoK has evidence that working adults move up the Clan caste system in a few different ways.

One is the Ritual of Adoption, the mechanism by which adults in other castes join the warrior caste.  Given this example, it’s possible there are mechanisms for adults to move from their current caste to other castes besides the warrior caste, but we simply don’t know them.

Another is the existence of science councils, merchant conclaves, technician guilds, and laborer assemblies within each clan and their scientist general, merchant factor, master technician, and senior laborer leaders.  These leaders and governing councils are elected.

And a third is the fact that each caste consists of 25 grades.  (There are also less clear references to “dozens” of subcastes.). Those who exceed their work targets rise in grade.  Those who do not fall in grade.  Those who do not work starve.  Higher grades receive more credits to spend within the Clan economies.

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Would that work in the Clan system (not to mention if said system even allows the creation of businesses not owned by a Clan)?

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Hellraiser

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #34 on: 31 August 2023, 13:55:26 »
The Falcons killing Ulric was a breach of zellbrigen, absolutely, but it certainly wasn't a murder by Clan standards.

Hmm, debatable.

He entered a Circle of Equals, then the entire other side of "witnesses" jumped him.

That happened back in the day w/ the Widowmakers & look what happened to them.

It was an Ambush after Single Duels rules had been invoked.  It's about as close to Murder as you can be when mechs are involved.

This wasn't some, took a non-lethal trial to lethal levels like Vlad did, & I agree w/ you there, this was flat out a sucker offer of a duel & ambush by a larger force.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #35 on: 31 August 2023, 13:58:49 »
Hmm, debatable.

Not debatable at all. It's not murder by Clan legal or even moral standards. It's dishonorable (a breach of zellbrigen), absolutely, but not murder.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #36 on: 05 September 2023, 11:41:32 »
Breaking Zell would be both sides engaged in a melee of group fire.

Vlad & the rest of the star spread out to form a circle & were not firing.

Imagine if it was un-augmented on Gym Mats & the 2nd guy brought half dozen friends & they beat the guy to death.

Would you call that a break in Zell v/s Murder?


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tassa_kay

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #37 on: 05 September 2023, 11:45:31 »
Imagine if it was un-augmented on Gym Mats & the 2nd guy brought half dozen friends & they beat the guy to death.

Would you call that a break in Zell v/s Murder?

Not a valid comparison, because in your proposed scenario, the Trial is between two individuals. Vlad and his Star were a part of the Trial. Ergo, not a murder, just a breach of zellbrigen.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #38 on: 05 September 2023, 14:30:55 »
Not a valid comparison, because in your proposed scenario, the Trial is between two individuals. Vlad and his Star were a part of the Trial. Ergo, not a murder, just a breach of zellbrigen.

Vlad & his Star were not part of the Challenge that Chitsu issued either.

If Ulric had died as they made their way to the Circle of Equals in the center of town, that would be fine.

If Chitsu hasn't challenged Ulric to a duel & they just met on the battlefield & he ordered group fire, then, THAT would be a break in Zell.

Neither of those happened.

Instead Chitsu challenged him to meet in a Circle of Equals for personal combat.

Ulric got there, met Van alone, and then 2 full stars, not part of their single duel, opened up from behind cover.

It was an Ambush during their individual trial in their circle of equals.  That's Murder.

If it was just a minor infraction then Van wouldn't have gone out of his to cover it up & Vlad living wouldn't have been that big of a deal.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #39 on: 05 September 2023, 14:40:46 »
If Chitsu hasn't challenged Ulric to a duel & they just met on the battlefield & he ordered group fire, then, THAT would be a break in Zell.

No, it wouldn't. For it to be a breach of zellbrigen, they'd have to have declared and been engaged in a duel.

Quote
Instead Chitsu challenged him to meet in a Circle of Equals for personal combat.

Ulric got there, met Van alone, and then 2 full stars, not part of their single duel, opened up from behind cover.

That's literally a breach of zellbrigen. Like, a textbook example.
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truetanker

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #40 on: 06 September 2023, 23:43:34 »
Like others said, Stage 1 is ten years old.

To get Freeborn Sibko, you need to pick it Stage 2 and be 16...

Or get / pick #10 under Clan Apprenticeship Event roll, Stage 2. You'll be 18, but get some goodies.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #41 on: 18 September 2023, 11:10:28 »
Some scientist that ends up testing down into the technician caste is one thing, but I don't see the Clans giving anyone the option to choose their caste, and certainly not because of personal preference. Nicholas stamped that notion right out of their way of thinking during the Wolverine Annihilation.

Except that societal constraint went away in the Sharks sometime before 3050 since warriors could volunteer to retire into at least the merchant caste- I would think there would be a cut off, IE just because you are sent to a solahma cluster does not mean you can change.

By 3150 we know this has changed . . . the Warden Wolves have warriors who 'retired' to other castes since several RecGuide entries have talked about retired warriors testing back in to fill slots after Arc Royal (why they did not before . . . ).  Then we have examples like Kev Rosse who joined the Republic Senate (not the only Clanner to do so) who sort of step sideways into political power- this is different than becoming a Knight and later Paladin like Drummond & Jorgensson.  IIRC, the Ghost Bear Star Colonel in the book about Jiyi was considering retiring from service a few times in the book and realizing he might have already "ROAD'd"- Retired On Active Duty.

What the Reunification Wolves are going to do as ilClan will be interesting b/c while Alaric's Crusader Wolves DID bring civilian castes, it was mostly techs & laborers.  The Warden Wolves brought everyone they evac'd or had at other duty stations like Donegal.  The Reunification Wolves civilian castes from a Clan background are going to have a LOT of the Warden Clan's culture.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #42 on: 18 September 2023, 11:21:17 »
Edge cases/exceptions to the rule at best, and certainly not enough to say "this is the norm among the Clans".
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Colt Ward

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #43 on: 18 September 2023, 11:53:03 »
Edge cases/exceptions to the rule at best, and certainly not enough to say "this is the norm among the Clans".

Retiring to the Merchant caste is common among the Sharks in 3050 and has not decreased by 3150.  Selena in Rending is a example, though very likely her 'Merchant' status is cover for being a Watch asset.

As for the other Clans . . . true, but we have not really had a book detailing the Clans in 3150 compared to the FMCC/WC series or earlier books.  My Rosse example is the weakest since he gained the Senate position as the leader of the Nova Cat forces/enclaves in his Prefecture and holds the Senate seat in parallel to his Galaxy Commander position.  I want to say the MWDA material covering the Clans talk about how they were kicking warriors out faster than they did in earlier eras to cycle new blood in- even more up or out than before.  Forgot the Scorpions, but IIRC the material about the Hansa war and the stories we have gotten so far do talk about warriors retiring but that might be limiting the solahma due to limited mech resources immediately after relocating.

I would say the Falcons, especially under Malvina, do not have retirement.  The Ravens have also shown no indication afaik.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #44 on: 18 September 2023, 11:57:10 »
So, like I said... edge cases.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #45 on: 18 September 2023, 12:04:02 »
I do not think among the Warden Wolves it was presented as a edge case, the cases were not presented as surprising.  For the Shark/Foxes, it has happened for over 100 years, and as we have a merchant who steps back to being a warrior for the Ha Otoko among the Hansa, another who calls a Trial against the Hellions to 'accidentally' capture some tech, Angus Labov, and IIRC one or two other entries in FMWC for Labov like recalls in 3050-3060 it seem to be common in that Clan.

Every other Homeworld stricture has eroded during their time in the Inner Sphere- Falcons went from 'DEZGRA!  YOU DARE STRIKE MY MECH!?' to designing flagship mechs incorporating physical combat . . . and accepting vehicles.  They are no longer in the hothouse of the Clan Homeworlds.

But as I said, we have not had any sort of civilian cultural update for any of the Inner Sphere Clans, the 'closest' we got was Dominions . . .
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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #46 on: 18 September 2023, 12:08:05 »
You're misunderstanding me. I'm saying these are edge cases amongst the Clans in general, not edge cases within said Clans.
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Freeborn warrior candidate questions
« Reply #47 on: 18 September 2023, 16:42:41 »
...
Forgot the Scorpions, but IIRC the material about the Hansa war and the stories we have gotten so far do talk about warriors retiring but that might be limiting the solahma due to limited mech resources immediately after relocating...

Scorpion warriors routinely retire these days

Where exactly depends on rank and performance

Galaxy Commanders often become reKhans and work as planetary governors or advisers (pretty powerful position, even before latest reforms Galaxy Commanders weren't allowed to butt in too hard in higher levels of planetary administration)

Lower ranks usually end up in Garrison Caste which handles garrison duties and law enforcement (this caste has large vehicle inventory and certain number of second line mechs for extra punch) so they will continue working as vehicle/aircraft crews, cops or drill sergeants

Aerospace warriors would end up either there as jet/chopper pilots, as spaceship crews or in Support Caste as firefighting, medivac or cargo pilots

Whole Empire grew to such size that having folks in their late 30s moping around and doing nothing is very wasteful especially with constant colonization drive

Even sibko washouts are immediately scooped up by civilians right out the gate, old protomech pilots lamented that not only did equipment run dry but also source of new recruits because of this

It's not a strict rule, they can choose other civilian castes to retire into, saKhan Homer Baba retired into Merchant Caste after the Crusade even though he was next in line for Khan (said he wanted to try something new)


« Last Edit: 18 September 2023, 16:46:27 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

 

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