Author Topic: Return of Fire & Blood  (Read 5979 times)

timp77

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Return of Fire & Blood
« on: 30 September 2023, 15:51:13 »
Will there be a return of the Fire Mandrill & Blood Spirits in the ilclan Era? Smoke Jaguars came back so why not the Fire and Blood clans.

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #1 on: 30 September 2023, 16:35:35 »
Wolves wouldn't know the Spirits had been Annihilated. And they hadn't been destroyed by the Inner Sphere but the Clans. Wolves had believed only the Clans could annihilate a Clan. Not a Inner Sphere power. There are hints though that Blood Spirits of some type are in the Inner Sphere during the Dark Age.
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truetanker

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #2 on: 30 September 2023, 16:46:13 »
Well as a Clan, they're gone...

As Bloodline, their property of others, mostly Homies.

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timp77

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #3 on: 30 September 2023, 17:59:33 »
The rage ship is unaccounted. There is no mention of it being destroyed or abandoned.  Also Bloodlines can restart a clan again.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #4 on: 30 September 2023, 18:12:57 »
The rage ship is unaccounted. There is no mention of it being destroyed or abandoned.  Also Bloodlines can restart a clan again.

As a lover of both clans I support this and encourage you to post away in their posts

Church14

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #5 on: 30 September 2023, 21:35:17 »
There’s no in universe or out of universe reason really to bring them back beyond fan service. There’s also good reasons in and out of universe to not resurrect them.

One of the key reasons not to is that every hour of work spent on them is an hour not spent on current factions. We already have a lot of existing factions that get little to no lore or POV characters.

Worth noting that the resurrection of the Jags is a painfully stupid plot point in and out of universe. Using them as the baseline “we did this once” isn’t a great plan.

That said, I would’ve preferred Fire Mandrills survived and made it to the sphere (or got resurrected in the sphere) over some of the others who did. Their schtick was more engaging to me than ravens, wolves, cats, jags, or falcons.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #6 on: 01 October 2023, 03:39:25 »
I would say the Spirits are dead. Deader then dead. Their entire genetic repository was buried under tons of rubble if not outright vaporized when the Adders bombed their last world to bits. Unless we get a "and then some Spirirts resurfaced from a secret world in the IS" spiel

rebs

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #7 on: 01 October 2023, 03:56:50 »
It's far from a spoiler at this point, but WoR had a purpose - to eliminate extra factions deemed unneeded and do so while telling a cool story. 

It sucks for the Clan Blood Spirit fans, which there were many and still are lots, but their faction of choice was deemed by the author and developers to be expendable.

I don't think any of the Clans that perished during the Wars of Reaving will ever come back.  We'll see the surviving Home Clans before then.
« Last Edit: 01 October 2023, 03:59:45 by rebs »
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Alan Grant

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #8 on: 01 October 2023, 08:14:52 »
The rage ship is unaccounted. There is no mention of it being destroyed or abandoned.  Also Bloodlines can restart a clan again.

The Rage was captured by the Coyotes. This is explicitly mentioned in Wars of Reaving page 112. When the Adders make their first attempt to go to Tamaron in 3072 and discover the Rage among the Coyote fleet defending the system, and are defeated by them. The Rage gets specifically called out for "Crossing the T" of the Adder warship Eagle and crushing her nose. But then the Eagle goes haywire and flies out of control. Then it's noted that the Rage transmitted some kind of localized HPG burst to the Eagle.

We don't hear of the Rage again, but we know the naval battle over Tameron in 3074 (WoR page 143) left a lot of destroyed ships. When the Vipers jumped in with all of their fleet they found the Tameron system SDS and 2 full naval stars defending Tameron. We don't know the names of all the warships involved but since the Rage was part of the defense of Tameron in 3072, it makes sense that she would be there again as one of those 10-12 warships (2 stars) in 3074.

The Vipers Leviathan Prime is said to have left a "string of broken hulls" behind it as the Viper fleet approached the planet. Until the Texas-class Ancestral Home takes out the Leviathan Prime by initiating a jump that destroys both ships.

It's said that the naval battle continued for a week after the ground assault on Tamaron started. It specifically names one Coyote warship surrendering while two others jump away to link up with the Coyotes at Kirin. (all these warships are specifically named).

That means out of "2 complete naval stars", so 10-12 warships total, 7-9 were destroyed. We aren't given the names of those vessels.

Whether its prior to that assault on Tameron (as part of the Coyote/Society operations across the Homeworlds) or whether (to my mind, more likely) the Rage died in the assault on Tameron, possibly as one of the 7-9 warships taken out by the Vipers in the assault on Tameron, what we know for sure is that the Rage became a Clan Coyote ship.

EDIT: If a missing Mandrill ship is what you are looking for, a better bet would be the CFM Firetender of Kindraa Faraday-Tanaga. No references to her at all in WoR. Though Faraday-Tanaga got stuck on Atreus under attack by the Streaking Mist and then later shattered by a plague, and then the survivors were absorbed into the Blood Spirits. She probably died trying to support the Kindraa on Atreus, or as part of the Blood Spirit fleet in the Viper annihilation. But that's pure speculation and it certainly leaves room for the idea that something else happened to her.

Two other missing ones are the Firehold and Reaver. Kindraa Payne-Beyl-Grant's ground forces died on Arcadia trying to launch a Reaving Trial against the Ghost Bears, but it isn't stated what happened to their fleet (except the CFM Anathema, which was discovered in complete shutdown in the Marshall system later by the Stone Lions). Right after that the Bears left the Homeworlds. Could be fun if one or both was scooped up by the Bears in the process or otherwise went off on some adventure we haven't heard about.
« Last Edit: 01 October 2023, 09:43:22 by Alan Grant »

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #9 on: 01 October 2023, 09:59:08 »
Highly unlikely. The Mandrills and the Blood Spirits were leveled during the Wars of Reaving and their bloodlines eliminated.  The Jaguars survived mostly due to having a leftover IS settlement, connections to the Republic of the Sphere, and Victor Steiner-Davion'a guilt. 

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #10 on: 01 October 2023, 10:41:18 »
I think the Blood Spirits are cool as hell, but my understanding is that they were worn down by decades of bad decisions, then created a secret enclave they could come back from, and then were eliminated in that secret enclave by people who hated them.

The Ice Hellions and even the Fire Mandrills had a little of themselves surviving in other clans, but the Spirits were written to round out the Clan roster, suck, create the Stooping Hawk, and then die.
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BlakesBestBoi

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #11 on: 01 October 2023, 10:48:08 »
Well the Blood Spirits and Fire Mandrills are my favourite Clans so I'd kill to see them come back. Since we're getting jack to do with the Clan Homeworlds for the next few years, however, I wouldn't bet on it.

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #12 on: 01 October 2023, 10:56:35 »
The community is pretty accepting of fanfiction. Murder is easier than writing, but you could take a shot at writing your own "Spirits/Mandrills survive" story.
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truetanker

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #13 on: 01 October 2023, 12:52:46 »
^^^^^^^^^^^ this.

Send it to Shrapnel, pretty sure if you wrote a "Ballard of Mandrill" (tm), along with a sensible entourage, a Cluster could be out there, homeless, but alive.

Add in a pirate / Dark Caste raid for supplies, maybe an old long forgotten Exodus Road world that time forgot?

And if that gets approved, there's your hook.

Enough untainted to settle, maybe they collected a small cache of Iron Wombs to eek out a Binary at a time, are forced to Freebirth it with a core of Trueborn elites, pick your survivor Kindraa, get a mixed TO&E, add a handful of units, civilian castes, technicians, several escaping merchants for possible use. Include some surviving scientists and go with that.

Even if it's FanFic, try your hand, post it in the proper thread and who knows...

TT
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timp77

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #14 on: 01 October 2023, 18:42:44 »
There is always hope for these two clans. Too many factions..then why create the Stone Lions?

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #15 on: 01 October 2023, 19:06:35 »
There is always hope for these two clans. Too many factions..then why create the Stone Lions?

because Homeworld Clan Tanks...?
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truetanker

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #16 on: 01 October 2023, 19:18:44 »
Zeta Galaxy, Clan Hell's Horses defended Niles and all outlying Enclaves. Having never been to the IS, they were blamed for bringing the IS Tainted home.

But Zeta never left and the Clan was mostly creating Harvest Trials in the Clan OZ.

It was the Abjuration of the IS part that lead to them being called tainted, ensuring the Trials.

They fought fiercely enough and ensured proper zellbrigen, even when they lost the Trials, that the Star Adders proclaimed them a new clan. Which helped them establishing their identity.

But current Homie Clans are somewhat lacking in info, post ilClan.

TT

because Homeworld Clan Tanks...?

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« Last Edit: 01 October 2023, 19:20:23 by truetanker »
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tassa_kay

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #17 on: 01 October 2023, 19:25:17 »
There is always hope for these two clans.

There is not, I'm afraid.

Quote
Too many factions..then why create the Stone Lions?

The Homeworld Clans that died did so because TPTB were fleshing out previously-established canon that "no less than five Clans" were destroyed in the Wars of Reaving, as mentioned in the novel A Rending of Falcons, not necessarily because of some "too many factions" reason.

The Lions were solely created as a Star Adder political ploy to tilt the scales in their favor.
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truetanker

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #18 on: 01 October 2023, 19:39:08 »
The Lions were solely created as a Star Adder political ploy to tilt the scales in their favor.

You, me, circle... Quiaff?   :wink:

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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
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tassa_kay

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #19 on: 01 October 2023, 19:45:45 »
You, me, circle... Quiaff?   :wink:

Pfft, I only get in the Circle with real Clans.  :laugh:
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truetanker

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #20 on: 01 October 2023, 19:48:36 »
Wolf Empire lackey...

 :grin:

TT
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Ghaz

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #21 on: 01 October 2023, 20:10:34 »
There is always hope for these two clans. Too many factions..then why create the Stone Lions?

Politics, purely and simply as a political move to sway the Grand Council in favor of the Star Adders.

rebs

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #22 on: 01 October 2023, 23:18:19 »
I was just repeating what the old line developer said and what the author said, back about 12 years ago.  None of that precludes other reasons. 
« Last Edit: 01 October 2023, 23:27:15 by rebs »
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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #23 on: 01 October 2023, 23:33:56 »
I was just repeating what the old line developer said and what the author said, back about 12 years ago.  None of that precludes other reasons.

I'm aware, hence why I said "not necessarily".  :wink:
« Last Edit: 01 October 2023, 23:36:10 by tassa_kay »
"Social media made y'all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it." - Mike Tyson

My Personal Units: Thuggee Warrior House Nagah (Capellan Confederation), 29th Blood Drinkers (Clan Blood Spirit), Nightmare Galaxy (Clan Hell's Horses), 1st Raven Rook Cluster (Raven Alliance)
Favorite Factions: Capellan Confederation • Clan Blood Spirit • Clan Smoke Jaguar • Clan Hell's Horses • Raven Alliance • Fronc Reaches • Rim Worlds Republic • Magistracy of Canopus
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Sartris

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #24 on: 01 October 2023, 23:42:53 »
Send it to Shrapnel, pretty sure if you wrote a "Ballard of Mandrill" (tm), along with a sensible entourage, a Cluster could be out there, homeless, but alive.

any shrapnel submission regarding fates of the assumed-dead homeworld clans will be rejected. it's the Chernobyl exclusion zone of product topics.

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rebs

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #25 on: 02 October 2023, 00:11:44 »
I'm aware, hence why I said "not necessarily".  :wink:

I saw that after posting, so it goes...  :smilie_happy_thumbup:
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Church14

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #26 on: 02 October 2023, 07:38:58 »
The Lions were solely created as a Star Adder political ploy to tilt the scales in their favor.

No clan Khan would create a puppet clan clearly just to get disproportionate amounts of yes-men votes in a council. How could you suggest…

looks at Terra, 3151

…such a thing?

truetanker

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #27 on: 02 October 2023, 09:35:09 »
Yeah...

"Sasha" might rollover in his glass coffin...

 :wink:

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
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rebs

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #28 on: 02 October 2023, 14:27:03 »
No one can say that the Clans don't know how to game their own system whenever they feel it's necessary. 

And no matter how many other Clans they point at and shriek about "Taint!", the Home Clans are just as corrupt as the rest.  It's just their own brand of corruption that suits them.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Return of Fire & Blood
« Reply #29 on: 02 October 2023, 21:40:36 »
No clan Khan would create a puppet clan clearly just to get disproportionate amounts of yes-men votes in a council. How could you suggest…

looks at Terra, 3151

…such a thing?

Jade Wolves come to mind too
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