Discussion Sidequest: LAMs

[glitterboy2098]

In my own headcanon, BattleMech partial wings and improved jump jets were kludgey byproducts of the LAM programs that the Star League never developed or bothered with since they had full LAMs, and which only really came about after the Irece factory was destroyed, with varying parties incorporating small elements of LAM tech into standard BattleMechs.

IJJ's iirc got developed during the succession wars, so wouldn't be a SLDF program. but i could buy the idea that someone looked at LAM's and how they used their jumpjets in airmech and fighter mode, and tried to duplicate that sort of prolonged use on a mech.
partial wings iirc were developed by the jade falcons. since they did have a LAM project for a bit, then redistributed the scientists that had worked on it, i could buy partial wings having come out of studies into LAM's.

[ColBosch]

partial wings iirc were developed by the jade falcons. since they did have a LAM project for a bit, then redistributed the scientists that had worked on it, i could buy partial wings having come out of studies into LAM's.

I think the first 'Mech to mount partial wings was the Cougar-X, so that tracks.

[Giovanni Blasini]

IJJ's iirc got developed during the succession wars, so wouldn't be a SLDF program. but i could buy the idea that someone looked at LAM's and how they used their jumpjets in airmech and fighter mode, and tried to duplicate that sort of prolonged use on a mech.
partial wings iirc were developed by the jade falcons. since they did have a LAM project for a bit, then redistributed the scientists that had worked on it, i could buy partial wings having come out of studies into LAM's.

Right.  The SLDF wouldn't have need of them, since they could just build LAMs.  But, by the 3rd/4th Succession Wars, when the Fed Suns is playing around with Prototype Improved Jump Jets and the Super Griffin, they've no longer got a LAM factory anymore: the Lexatech factory on Irece is the last one.

[Kit deSummersville]

......Ok, I'm scared for how they're presented. Context?

They show up in the midst of a big WarShip battle, do some LAM stuff.

[LAMFAN]

They show up in the midst of a big WarShip battle, do some LAM stuff.

Oh good, that's a good sign then. Hopefully get some advertisement from there.

IJJ's iirc got developed during the succession wars, so wouldn't be a SLDF program. but i could buy the idea that someone looked at LAM's and how they used their jumpjets in airmech and fighter mode, and tried to duplicate that sort of prolonged use on a mech.
partial wings iirc were developed by the jade falcons. since they did have a LAM project for a bit, then redistributed the scientists that had worked on it, i could buy partial wings having come out of studies into LAM's.

And that's why the Clans fail, because they had all the tech at their fingertips but decided to give up. At least we got the Partial Wing rules out of it, the did at least that much right.

[Wrangler]

Clans failed due to their warrior culture social structure. Their always competing among themselves, team work while in the same machine is impossible for them. (fluff wise) Yet, there are in much later years TankWarriors who were raised to work as team in same machine.  Why say it, was Clan's last LAM experiment was having a pilot and MechWarrior in same dual cockpit of modified Phoenix Hawk LAM

[glitterboy2098]

Clans failed due to their warrior culture social structure. Their always competing among themselves, team work while in the same machine is impossible for them. (fluff wise) Yet, there are in much later years TankWarriors who were raised to work as team in same machine.  Why say it, was Clan's last LAM experiment was having a pilot and MechWarrior in same dual cockpit of modified Phoenix Hawk LAM

ultimately the clans failed to ressurect LAm's because it was Clan Jade Falcon that was behind the effort. they couldn't accept the compromises to the warrior caste social order needed to create proper LAM warriors, and their two-pilot cockpit stopgap ran into the problem that their warriors were way too indoctrinated into competitive individualism. they also ran into the common flaw of trying to use LAM's as frontline combatants instead of as supporting units for recon and raids.


also, per the novel, the LAM types they were using for the experiment were wasp and stinger LAM's, albeit ones that had been "majorly rebuilt" to slightly heavier mass.

[tassa_kay]

I feel like we're ignoring the fact that the Clans have been using actual tanks, many of which have more than one warrior operating them, for the entirety of their existence. The anti-LAM argument for the Clans makes no sense when you apply the slightest bit of scrutiny to it.

[ColBosch]

Yeah, they don't use LAMs because someone 150 years ago didn't like the things and the Clans have been making up excuses ever since.

[tassa_kay]

I think it's more a matter of inconsistency from BattleTech going through changes of ownership and multiple developers, most of whom were uninterested in doing anything with LAMS, over the decades than anything else. I appreciate a good in-universe argument to justify out-of-universe decisions as much as the next guy, but sometimes one just has to call a spade a spade. It's unfortunate, too, because they fill a fun little niche in the game. That story from Historical: First Succession War with the Davion LAMs boarding a Combine carrier to blow it up from the inside sounded like a total blast to try to play out.

[glitterboy2098]

I feel like we're ignoring the fact that the Clans have been using actual tanks, many of which have more than one warrior operating them, for the entirety of their existence. The anti-LAM argument for the Clans makes no sense when you apply the slightest bit of scrutiny to it.

and the warriors hate them, and their crews are made up of sibko washouts and freeborns that couldn't pass the tests for mech, BA, or fighter training. the clans also use them badly?

not really the gotcha you think it is.

[tassa_kay]

and the warriors hate them, and their crews are made up of sibko washouts and freeborns that couldn't pass the tests for mech, BA, or fighter training. the clans also use them badly?

not really the gotcha you think it is.

It wasn't intended to be a "gotcha", it's intended to address the fact that we've never seen the Clans characterized as disliking tanks for being crewed by multiple warriors, but for not being posted in the frontline forces of most Clans. And even that's been largely mitigated by the Dark Age/ilClan era, where the Clans have more readily embraced combined-arms warfare and tanks see a lot more frontline action.

[monbvol]

I feel like we're ignoring the fact that the Clans have been using actual tanks, many of which have more than one warrior operating them, for the entirety of their existence. The anti-LAM argument for the Clans makes no sense when you apply the slightest bit of scrutiny to it.

It wasn't intended to be a "gotcha", it's intended to address the fact that we've never seen the Clans characterized as disliking tanks for being crewed by multiple warriors, but for not being posted in the frontline forces of most Clans. And even that's been largely mitigated by the Dark Age/ilClan era, where the Clans have more readily embraced combined-arms warfare and tanks see a lot more frontline action.

The problem by comparing to tanks is that Warriors assigned to tanks are all of the same social status inside the Warrior Caste and all have the same skill sets as well as Vehicles and BattleArmor always being less bound by zell by their very nature.

A LAM pilot needs both mech and aero skills.

The Jade Falcon solution was to have a Mechwarrior and an Aero phenotype in the cockpit.  Two different skill sets and two different social standings within Clan society.  Mechwarriors in Clan society are generally consider of a higher social status than Aerospace Warriors.  At least at the time and in Clan Jade Falcon.

Which results in another question, how do you bid them?

Clans by practice of the time bid away Aerospace assets(not just Warships) quite often with many engagements not even having Aerospace involved at all.

The preference for most all Clans was to bid Mechs only at the time.

In the end it was always just a poor fit for Clan society at the time.  Maybe it could have worked out in a more progressive Clan or in a different era, because I do agree it really seems a natural fit for the modern Snow Ravens to do some interesting things with.

[Prospernia]

I think it's more a matter of inconsistency from BattleTech going through changes of ownership and multiple developers, most of whom were uninterested in doing anything with LAMS, over the decades than anything else. . .

Probably more for legal reason to be less like Macross.  With LAMs, I can play an anime-game based off of '80's anime. I've never watched modern anime.

Oh, and the lady at the local, animie-model store, didn't know what the Fang of the Sun Dougram was. :(

[SCC]

So ignoring some other issues with LAMs already discussed, that is good point, thank you for reminding us. Then a different option: instead of the WIGE (I personally like WIGE myself but we're going for alternate ideas), what if instead you keep the halved movement speed of the current AirMech, but get a major bonus to jump. Not anything insane like before, but more along the lines of a +4 Jump instead of just +2, with NO WIGE movement.

Actually, how rediculous was jumping before hand in AirMech mode?

The jumping was ridiculous in AirMech mode before, three times jump in 'Mech Mode, that's why WiGE was picked as the movement mode, TPTB can't change the value for MP in AirMech mode, because that would invalidate existing records sheets, so they changed the type.

[monbvol]

The jumping was ridiculous in AirMech mode before, three times jump in 'Mech Mode, that's why WiGE was picked as the movement mode, TPTB can't change the value for MP in AirMech mode, because that would invalidate existing records sheets, so they changed the type.

Except in a way they did by picking WiGE.

Old rules Phoenix Hawk LAM could never cover more than 15 hexes in Airmech.

Current rules it's now 23(*) under properly permissive terrain.

If they had chosen *2 and calculated flank from that it would actually have resulted in the same end 15(*) hex/mp cap.

*There is a rule for bonus MP for WiGE movement but for the sake of discussion I am discounting that as it requires specific terrain to pull off.

[ColBosch]

A 'Mech running along a road gets a bonus hex to its move, but the record sheet doesn't reflect that. On the other hand, TR3025 doesn't show AirMech MP anyway. I don't have the ancient Record Sheet books (the stapled ones), so I'm not sure if they even include the LAMs nor if they show AirMech MP if they are included.

On the gripping hand, CGL would not have had a problem redoing the LAM sheets if needed, since we did change the rules. CGL's goal is to maintain continuity by preserving what's seen on record sheets, but when needed, changes have been made.

[ColBosch]

Also, for those complaining about the rules, there's this tidbit from Ray at Adepticon:

-What makes it hard to do LAMs properly?  They're too fast on the tabletop and it makes them hard to keep balanced.  Ray said it feels like they're not really fitting how LAMs work in the fiction too.

So my take is that the rules may change, but I wouldn't expect them to get even faster.

[monbvol]

A 'Mech running along a road gets a bonus hex to its move, but the record sheet doesn't reflect that. On the other hand, TR3025 doesn't show AirMech MP anyway. I don't have the ancient Record Sheet books (the stapled ones), so I'm not sure if they even include the LAMs nor if they show AirMech MP if they are included.

On the gripping hand, CGL would not have had a problem redoing the LAM sheets if needed, since we did change the rules. CGL's goal is to maintain continuity by preserving what's seen on record sheets, but when needed, changes have been made.

None of the rule books I have have any provision for calculating a 'Flank' movement for LAMs.  And thanks to CGL putting a lot of the old rule books on the store in pdf form I have most of them.

So yeah beyond that I likewise only have semi-vague memories of seeing LAM sheets but never conveying a flank speed.

And I was discounting the WiGE bonus because it is theoretically more permissive but still highly variable.  More maps have hills than have roads after all.

Also, for those complaining about the rules, there's this tidbit from Ray at Adepticon:

So my take is that the rules may change, but I wouldn't expect them to get even faster.

I'm actually largely fine with the rules as they are.

My complaint about turn modes is less about the fact it makes you have to think and plan a bit more but more that turn mode rules themselves are a little wonky last time I looked at them.  I'm even fine with the +3/+4.  I'm firmly in the camp that if minis are on mapsheets Airmech mode should only be used for a game turn or two at most.

I wouldn't mind some tweaks and letting a few more techs in but as they are despite the three specific claims about violating points of fluff, I find only one holds any water at all and it is such a minor one that is easy enough to table rule away and no one will really care.

[ColBosch]

I'm obviously okay with the rules as-is right now, but I agree that turn modes can be wonky. I don't like rules that require players to track more than one number at a time, and turn modes require you to remember both your current MP and how many you have to spend until your next allowed hexside shift.

[Dapper Apples]

I wish IO had a quick summary of the turn mode rule as it concerns airmechs, just so I just need one book to see all lam movement rules.  I have tacops I'm just lazy and not using turn mode for other unit types.

[LAMFAN]

I wish IO had a quick summary of the turn mode rule as it concerns airmechs, just so I just need one book to see all lam movement rules.  I have tacops I'm just lazy and not using turn mode for other unit types.

I'll agree this is definitely an issue. I had to find pdfs for the TacOps to find the Turn Mode rules and figure out what was up.

Also, for those complaining about the rules, there's this tidbit from Ray at Adepticon:

So my take is that the rules may change, but I wouldn't expect them to get even faster.

A 'Mech running along a road gets a bonus hex to its move, but the record sheet doesn't reflect that. On the other hand, TR3025 doesn't show AirMech MP anyway. I don't have the ancient Record Sheet books (the stapled ones), so I'm not sure if they even include the LAMs nor if they show AirMech MP if they are included.

On the gripping hand, CGL would not have had a problem redoing the LAM sheets if needed, since we did change the rules. CGL's goal is to maintain continuity by preserving what's seen on record sheets, but when needed, changes have been made.

Also, for those complaining about the rules, there's this tidbit from Ray at Adepticon:

So my take is that the rules may change, but I wouldn't expect them to get even faster.

Good to hear at least a sliver of news about LAM's in that sense.

AirMech's speed are perfectly fine given their weight and WiGE rules. There's really no issue with their speed themselves.The overall issues with the mode boil down to TWO points:
- +3/+4 Targeting Modifiers
- Turn Mode

Now granted, With some of its penchant for speed, perhapse the +1/+2 targeting modifiers for AirMech mode would be a bit MUCH. A fairer compromise would be a +2/+3 in all honesty for its speed, but not +3/+4 due to its other limiting factors (turn modes and half speed at 2 levels above the ground since you have to avoid trees to). Still not good enough to get a hit in with, but still allows it to maybe get in a hit or two while skimming along.

If those two issues were to be reworked (or hell, at least Turn Modes), and the afformentioned +2 boost to Safe Thrust for ASF mode granted in some capacity? That would definitely be something LAM fans wouldn't have much to complain about anymore.

At the risk of sounding repetetive, the main changes I'd honestly propose, and believe fans of LAMs would be happy to settle and cease arguing on are:
Air Mech Mode: Turn Modes no longer mandatory, +2/+3 Modifiers for movement.
ASF Mode: +2 Thrust

Both dejank LAM's in their own way, but don't make them uber powerful Valkyries ala Macross given all the other current limitations to them. Keep the WiGE movement because its actually cool.

(Be sure to let Ray know that por favor...)

I'm obviously okay with the rules as-is right now, but I agree that turn modes can be wonky. I don't like rules that require players to track more than one number at a time, and turn modes require you to remember both your current MP and how many you have to spend until your next allowed hexside shift.

I mean obviously, lol, glad that we can at least agree on Turn Modes though!

There may be hope for some LAM tweaks yet!!!