Author Topic: ...Just the way you are  (Read 14267 times)

Iron Mongoose

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...Just the way you are
« on: 31 October 2011, 15:31:16 »
In another thread, I argued that the number of mechs that one would not want to make even the slightest modification to is very small.  I'm intrested to see what mechs people think are in that catagory, that are so perfict as canon mechs that there is no meaningful room for improvment.

I think its widely recognized that even a fairly mean player can recognize and fix fualts in most mechs given a chance.  But I would go further and say that even mechs that are considered very good are not with out room for improvement in all but a small number of cases.  The Warhawk C is very good, for example, but (BV1 considerations asside) might not a small ER laser have better filled that last half ton?  Or under TW, a micro pulse laser? 

Now, there are two considerations I want to address quickly.  One is that some changes were not possible at the time the mech was built, but are legal now and would be an improvment.  For example, it is now legal to build an omni as under weight, so a Dire Wolf C would not be forced to carry that silly OS SSRM4 as it was under the full weight rules of its day, but could instead mount another MPL (or any of a number of other things that would be of more use than an OS SSRM launcher).

Another is that some changes might make sense in some situations or for some players than for others.  For example, some players who use smoke rules and like to hide in smoke would prefer to keep the flamer on their Warhawk C.  Others who often deal with infantry might like the flamer or the micro pulse laser.  Players who fight mechs would likely prefer the ER small.  Players who use artilery might like a light TAG, players who face hidden units a light AP, and so on.  So there's not one right answer.

I'd like to include both these cases as times when a mech could be improved, to make the list of mechs that could or should not be changed as small as possible.

So given that, what mechs are perfict mechs, that you would and do take just as they are, every time.
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Saint

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #1 on: 31 October 2011, 17:00:54 »
Warhammer 6D
Stalker 3F (SW Era)
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Ian Sharpe

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #2 on: 31 October 2011, 17:10:10 »
Hellstar.
Highlander IIC.
Nova Cat A.

Kojak

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #3 on: 31 October 2011, 17:39:02 »
Preta C-PRT-OA
Deva C-DVA-OB
Nova Cat A
Pillager PLG-4Z
Warhammer WHM-9S
No-Dachi NDA-2KO
Gunslinger GUN-2ERD
Cataphract CTF-4L
Orion ON2-M
Phoenix Hawk PXH-7K
Phoenix Hawk PXH-6D
Talon TLN-5W


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worktroll

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #4 on: 31 October 2011, 17:42:32 »
Awesome. AWS-8Q and -9Q.
Archer ARC-4M.
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VF1LAM

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #5 on: 31 October 2011, 17:44:33 »
Devastator base model. [notworthy]
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Syzyx

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #6 on: 31 October 2011, 17:49:39 »
The original Vixen. (And, yes, I do refuse to call it an Incubus.)
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Schottenjaeger

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #7 on: 31 October 2011, 17:58:38 »
This is working just with what I've got on my shelf, so I'm leaving out a bunch of minor variants and such.
#1: The AWS-9Q. Cold, hard, vicious, and utterly unstoppable.
Other mechs I consider good enough that I wouldn't refit them?
The upgraded Enforcer.  The Crab. The 3025 Steiner Griffin. Most Archer and Longbow models. The Stinger and Kabuto.


Things I'd refit without hesitation:
Anything with a full ton of MG Ammo -> another MG and half a ton. Except the Piranha. It, and I cannot believe I am saying this, has enough MGs. Also, many mechs with mixed MGs and Smalls could really do with swapping the Smalls for an MG or vice versa.
All the 3050 and 3055 mechs designed back when only SRM-2s could mount Inferno ammo: swap out a ton of SRM loads for a bigger rack, a heat sink, or another SRM-2.
What can I say? I like my mechs to have about 3:30 of ammunition endurance once they make contact with the enemy, anything more is a liability.

Anything with an AC-5 -> LAC-5 and a couple Medium lasers or sinks, plus another ton of ammo. Too many early designs were made with only one ton of ammo, reducing the flexibility of the system.
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Marwynn

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #8 on: 31 October 2011, 18:19:29 »
Panther PNT-9R
Wolverine WVR-6M
Dragon DRG-1N (Surprisingly tough)
Warhammer WHM-6K
Awesome AWS-8Q/9Q
Banshee BNC-3S

In Level 2 play...

Devastator DVS-2
Pillager PLG-4Z

And a host of other 'Mechs I've forgotten.

JPArbiter

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #9 on: 31 October 2011, 18:27:30 »
WLF-2 Wolfhound
WLF-7H Wolverine II
WHM-7A Warhammer
Woodsman
AWS-8Q Awesome
Scepticemia
CTF-2X Cataphract
FLS/HV-1 Flashman
HBK-4G Hunchback
LGN-2D Legionairre
HMH-3D Hammerhands
NH-2 Rook
ARC-2R Archer
Arc-8M archer
ZEU 6T Zeus
BL-7-KNT Black Knight
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bakija

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #10 on: 31 October 2011, 19:34:35 »
The basic Vindicator and basic Panther are both fantastic in 3025 play, and I'd happily use them as is without tweaking them.

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #11 on: 31 October 2011, 20:09:16 »
Blackjack 3.
#704

willydstyle

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #12 on: 31 October 2011, 20:19:22 »

Highlander IIC.

Don't get me wrong, the Highlander IIC is a great mech, but it has some ammo and weapon placement issues (ammo explosion takes out the MPLs, which is bad). Also, if would be better as a 100 tonner.

For me the Penthesilea is about as close to "perfect" for it's chassis as you can get, though like every 75 tonner, it would be ever-so-slightly more optimal as an 85 tonner.

Marwynn

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #13 on: 31 October 2011, 20:27:42 »
The basic Vindicator and basic Panther are both fantastic in 3025 play, and I'd happily use them as is without tweaking them.

Quite right! The Vindy is just solid in nearly any scenario. Also, love the way it looks.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #14 on: 31 October 2011, 20:38:37 »
Starslayer 3D.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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3rdCrucisLancers

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #15 on: 31 October 2011, 20:43:10 »
Falconer classic. The variant is just a change for the sake of change, and is the New Coke to the Falconer's unassailable classic.
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House Davie Merc

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #16 on: 31 October 2011, 21:21:11 »
Now, there are two considerations I want to address quickly.  One is that some changes were not possible at the time the mech was built, but are legal now and would be an improvment. 

I know that it's not what the OP intended but I'd like to point out a change that was not possible under the original rules
but I believe SHOULD have happened when the rules were changed ,or at least additional mech variants could
have been made to reflect that change .
Originally you had to carry a full ton of MG ammo .

Early in the game's history that rule was changed but the orignal mechs that carry MGs were left with a full
ton of MG ammo .

A half ton less ammo that could be converted into armor would have been a HUGE benefit for
the thin skinned Phoenix Hawk , Stinger , and Locust .

Now to answer the OP's question :

Warhammer WHM-6D
Awesome     AWS-8Q
Wolverine    WVR-6M 

Mine is a small list .

willydstyle

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #17 on: 31 October 2011, 21:27:11 »
And the AWS-8Q would have been better as a 100-tonner.

The WVR-6M is one of the few SW-era mechs that really couldn't be any better.

Back then, there wasn't much equipment, so they basically differentiated the mechs by giving them different levels of flaws. Nowadays that there is a *ton* of different equipment, engine types, armor types, etc, they really don't have any excuse for poorly-designed mechs any more.

cold1

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #18 on: 31 October 2011, 21:34:19 »
Hellstar.
Highlander IIC.
Nova Cat A.

I agree with all of these


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Kiff_Stevenson

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #19 on: 31 October 2011, 21:43:19 »
Quite right! The Vindy is just solid in nearly any scenario. Also, love the way it looks.

My once and forever personal ride.

+1     8)

Also, I think it would be fairly difficult to improve on the original version of the Locust iic.

Colt Ward

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #20 on: 01 November 2011, 00:30:32 »
I think the Timberwolf Prime is one of the MG trespassers.

WIth that said . . . I love a lot of the secondline Clan mechs, but I think they also fall under the same sort of situation as the IS mechs with SRM2/Inferno rules.  The only change I would make on a lot of the secondliners from the Golden Century or whatever is to mount ATMs instead of LRM/SRM/SSRMs.

With that said . . . the Orion IIC.  I love the beast, and mine are always big targets on the MM servers when I play Clan.
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Demos

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #21 on: 01 November 2011, 02:21:51 »
Sorry, there is always room for *improvements*, even on a WHM-6D (replacing the 2 SL with one ML).
BTW, in the view of the OP I'm in the minority as I rarely look at a mech with the urgent need of improving the design.

But nevertheless, designs close the "perfectness":
WVR-6M Wolverine
WHM-6D Warhammer
FLC-8R Falconer
AWS-8Q/9Q Awesome
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Stormcrow

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #22 on: 01 November 2011, 02:29:30 »
Falconer classic. The variant is just a change for the sake of change, and is the New Coke to the Falconer's unassailable classic.
First one that popped to my mind was the Falconer. Second be the original Goshawk. As for the older (level 1) stuff, the Warhammer-6D, Awesome 8Q and 8V, Orion-1VA and Titan-1A
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Humansquish

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #23 on: 01 November 2011, 02:36:36 »
Clint IIC 2
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Grave

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #24 on: 01 November 2011, 03:40:17 »
3025 era Grasshopper.  Lots of ML love, enough heatsinks to handle 90% of the weapon load (even while jumping!) and the large laser to do longer range work with.  One of the heaviest SW era designs to usefully mount jumpjets, it's a real terror.


Yea, it really is that fast....

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #25 on: 01 November 2011, 07:56:23 »
I've yet to find any feasible way to improve upon the TR1 Wraith...

Diamondshark

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #26 on: 01 November 2011, 09:19:18 »
Hellstar
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The classic Centurion comes close, but I would swap one of the LRM ammo bins for armor.
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #27 on: 01 November 2011, 09:50:24 »
Now, I love the Awesome to death (we all do) but would the 8Q not have been better with one or two points more foward armor? (Yes, I've been defending the high rear armor for years and I still do, but if we all just got along what fun would this be?)

Would the Grasshopper not have been better with some SRMs to complement the in fighting weapons rather than the token LRM5 for closing, or even better as a pure energy mech?

Is the Vindi's small laser the best use of that tonnage, or would not half a ton more armor, or half less and a full medium laser, have been better?

Would the Falconer gain from one more heatsink, or from ER MLs?

In my mind, there are hundreds of mechs that are good enough that I'm prepaired to use them as is with no changes.  Every listed mech would make that cut.  But, for the sake of fun I'd use a Rifleman 1N as is, yet anyone can see it could benifit from more armor and heatsinks and fewer guns.

Are these mechs all so perfict that you couldn't change them, or just good enough that you wouldn't?
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3rdCrucisLancers

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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #28 on: 01 November 2011, 10:14:39 »
No, you're right. I was confused. I don't know my own mind. I see that now.

Oh wait, no, that's not the case, in fact.
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Re: ...Just the way you are
« Reply #29 on: 01 November 2011, 10:21:13 »
The two mechs that comes to my mind first are the Hellstar and the ARC-2Rb Archer.
I assume that we should disregard that all Inner Sphere mechs can be improved with Clan-tech.

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