'New School' - Mech design in 3145

[Sartris]

After entering a large number of the units from RS:3145u into SSW, I've noticed a few trends regarding design philosophy in the early to mid 32nd century. I haven't had time to gather any sort of statistics so this is far from scientific. As with any trend, there will be plenty of contrary examples (or I may have simply misinterpreted what I was seeing). Feel free to add to or refute any of the following. NTNU is omitted, as it stands as a deliberate attempt to use new tech on old chassis.

1. Endosteel - It's pretty much ubiquitous now. There was a little endo-composite too, but almost every design I saw uses it.

2. Newer Missile systems - They're everywhere. I thought I saw more MML-5 and ATM-6 more than other sizes, but I feel like overall they are certainly supplanting SRMs (Streaks excluded). The Kuritans seem to be swimming against the stream on this one (especially with their high volume of Clan LRMs and MRM + Apollo)... also... is anyone else terrified by the rapid proliferation of Streak LRMs?

3. XL engines - Lots and lots of XL engines. Holy crap, there are a lot of XL and XXL engines.

4. IJJs - The IJJ craze in TRO 3085 appears to be mostly over

5. PPCs - The PPC craze is not over. Universe needs more Blue Shield.

6. Heavy Lasers - IS Clans love them some heavy lasers.

7. Shutting Down... - More TSEMP than I expected.

7. Attack of the sequels - Anubis, Atlas III, Black Hawk (standard), Black Knight, Catapult II, Centurion Omni, Dragon II, DA Firestarter,  Hollander III, Kodiak II, Koshi (Standard), Loki II, Lu Wei Bing, Mad Cat IV, Phoenix Hawk L, Stalker II, Stalking Spider II, Templar III, Thor II, Viking IIC, Vulture III, IV, Zeus X

[Diablo48]

Looking at these trends from a design standpoint, a lot of this makes a lot of sense.

Endo and XLEs are both fantastic technologies which are well understood at this point so it makes sense that a lot of designers are going for them and making the technologies more available.

MMLs also make sense because they can replace SRMs in a lot of cases, although the ATM is a bit odd because it does not really overlap with any of the older launchers.  I would also have to disagree on the subject of the MRMs because I feel like the widespread introduction of Apollo really makes them a new system in a lot of ways because it eliminates some of their traditional limitations, and the advantages of Clan launchers are obvious enough that that should not need any explanation.  I am also not especially surprised by the proliferation of Streak LRMs, although that is honestly not a technology that I am terribly impressed with.  Sure conserving ammo is nice, but they weigh so much more than standards that you do not really gain anything from the change in combat and the extra cost of the ammo means they are not really any easier on the logistics end either.

The iJJs also make sense because while you can make some really scary things with them, they are very much a specialized system so it is not surprising that they have settled into their niche more as time goes on.

I am honestly not sure what you are talking about with a "PPC craze".  It is very well known both in and out of universe that the entire PPC family is a solid group of weapons that make a good core for just about any 'Mech so I would expect to see lots of them until Blue Shield and reflective armor get popular enough to make them a poor choice.

The Heavy Lasers are also not that surprising given their effectiveness when used properly and the fact that at least one of the (out of character) people in charge thinks they are what the Clans should have been from the start.  I very strongly disagree with this sentiment given the way warfare tends to evolve in the real world and the fact that pilots can better show off their skill at long range, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

The TSEMP honestly strikes me as new toy syndrome and I expect that to fade into the background soon, but it does fit the pattern for many other new technologies so far.

For the sequels, some of that was mandated by the prior Dark Age stuff, but I honestly think that is more a function of the devs running out of names as anything else because I have had to resort to some fairly insane names to keep my custom designs from overlapping with canon designs.  It is also probably partially influenced by the fact that weapon configurations start to look alike no matter what you do after however many canon designs have been published already, but this numbering was really kind of inevitable.

[Jellico]

I am also not especially surprised by the proliferation of Streak LRMs, although that is honestly not a technology that I am terribly impressed with.  Sure conserving ammo is nice, but they weigh so much more than standards that you do not really gain anything from the change in combat and the extra cost of the ammo means they are not really any easier on the logistics end either.

On 'Mechs the extra damage and less heat (damage wise they are comparable to a LRM 20 + 10) make them slightly superior to LRMs. They do lack indirect fire and ammo options.
On the ground proliferation of ECM limits the effectiveness of Artemis IV and V.
In the air Artemis V is the superior option.

[Diablo48]

On 'Mechs the extra damage and less heat (damage wise they are comparable to a LRM 20 + 10) make them slightly superior to LRMs. They do lack indirect fire and ammo options.
On the ground proliferation of ECM limits the effectiveness of Artemis IV and V.
In the air Artemis V is the superior option.

Except the system weighs twice what a regular launcher does, although the reduction in ammo and DHS brings it back into line with the conventional racks all told.  Running the numbers under the assumption that you have to pay for DHS (because the standards obviously win easily on the free engine DHS), two LRM 15's work out to 16 tons (7 tons for the launchers, 5 for the DHS, 4 for the ammo) while the SLRM 20 is 15 tons (10 for the launcher, 3 for the DHS, 2 for the ammo).  That is very close overall in both mass and damage, but the standard racks have a number of other little advantages like indirect fire and special munitions which I feel more than make up for the tiny loss in efficiency.

Streak LRMs are really just not as strong as Streak SRMs which generally eclipse the standards unless you need the ability to use special munitions which is why I am not impressed with the new technology.  I feel like the new system could really have used another little edge somewhere because as is they are not just enough better to justify loosing indirect fire and special munitions.

[nckestrel]

If you are comparable to standard clan LRMs, you're doing pretty good for yourself. 

[Diablo48]

If you are comparable to standard clan LRMs, you're doing pretty good for yourself.

They are both Clan tech so that is to be expected.  The LRMs are nothing special there and stack up fairly evenly against all the other long range weapons.

[nckestrel]

They are both Clan tech so that is to be expected.  The LRMs are nothing special there and stack up fairly evenly against all the other long range weapons.

We're not comparing them to Ultra AC/2s :).
If Streak LRMs are fairly comparable to other good clantech weapons, then it seems it hit the mark it was aiming for?

[Diablo48]

We're not comparing them to Ultra AC/2s :).
If Streak LRMs are fairly comparable to other good clantech weapons, then it seems it hit the mark it was aiming for?

Except it looses some features while getting nothing back.  Sure it is way better than IS weapons, but when you stack it up against Clan weapons it is almost as good but not quite which is not a good place to be.  If it had a few more hexes of range like the SRM racks or weighed a little less it would have a reason to exist because then it would trade special munitions and indirect fire for an edge in direct combat, but as is it is basically just a standard LRM rack without those features which is why I do not like it.

[DarkISI]

For the sequels, some of that was mandated by the prior Dark Age stuff, but I honestly think that is more a function of the devs running out of names as anything else because I have had to resort to some fairly insane names to keep my custom designs from overlapping with canon designs.  It is also probably partially influenced by the fact that weapon configurations start to look alike no matter what you do after however many canon designs have been published already, but this numbering was really kind of inevitable.

Running out of names is really not a big problem. We have unit designers, writers and artists from all over the world, giving us a really big pool of names to draw from, without any trouble. :)

[Jellico]

Except the system weighs twice what a regular launcher does, although the reduction in ammo and DHS brings it back into line with the conventional racks all told.  Running the numbers under the assumption that you have to pay for DHS (because the standards obviously win easily on the free engine DHS), two LRM 15's work out to 16 tons (7 tons for the launchers, 5 for the DHS, 4 for the ammo) while the SLRM 20 is 15 tons (10 for the launcher, 3 for the DHS, 2 for the ammo).  That is very close overall in both mass and damage, but the standard racks have a number of other little advantages like indirect fire and special munitions which I feel more than make up for the tiny loss in efficiency.

Streak LRMs are really just not as strong as Streak SRMs which generally eclipse the standards unless you need the ability to use special munitions which is why I am not impressed with the new technology.  I feel like the new system could really have used another little edge somewhere because as is they are not just enough better to justify loosing indirect fire and special munitions.

So what are you looking for exactly? SLRMs do more damage per ton. Especially as the ammo increases as the SLRM will always need less. The LRM gets optional ammo and indirect fire. That sounds balanced to me.
        Damage    12 Ammo   HS   Weight   Total
2xLRM15   18   3   5    7   15
SLRM20    20   2   3   10   15
New tech is rarely going to eclipse old tech. That is the nature of the game. Balance.

[jymset]

4. IJJs - The IJJ craze in TRO 3085 appears to be mostly over

7. Attack of the sequels - Anubis, Atlas III, Black Hawk (standard), Black Knight, Catapult II, Centurion Omni, Dragon II, DA Firestarter,  Hollander III, Kodiak II, Koshi (Standard), Loki II, Lu Wei Bing, Mad Cat IV, Phoenix Hawk L, Stalker II, Stalking Spider II, Templar III, Thor II, Viking IIC, Vulture III, IV, Zeus X

These show the difference in design philosophy between 3085 and 3145. 3085 really wanted to explore the new movement profiles made possible by TW, which of course entailed examining a large variety of iJJ options. 3145 needed to fold in all the DA stuff; a lot of the list was documented. The rest (some of which arguably could have been NTNU material) were a deliberate choice to canonize aesthetics in the way of "C"BT illustrations. Only 3 of the above fall in neither category.

As for streaks, operatively for me the main boon of the system - in all incarnations be it SSRM, SLRM or iATM - is that I play so very differently with it. Essentially I'll always announce my weapons fire by saying "...and I'll be firing the Streaks, too." - there is almost no situation in which the heat isn't worth the damage. And I don't care how difficult the to-hit number is. That is what makes Streaks awesome. It matters not how hard it is to hit.

[MistWolf]

1. Endosteel - It's pretty much ubiquitous now

I would like to point out all mechs use endosteel. The advanced form of endosteel is actually called Endosteel II

[Holybat]

I would like to point out all mechs use endosteel. The advanced form of endosteel is actually called Endosteel II

Yes because that's why they went through the effort of labeling standard chassis "standard" in the Tech Manual.

[Diablo48]

So what are you looking for exactly? SLRMs do more damage per ton. Especially as the ammo increases as the SLRM will always need less. The LRM gets optional ammo and indirect fire. That sounds balanced to me.
        Damage    12 Ammo   HS   Weight   Total
2xLRM15   18   3   5    7   15
SLRM20    20   2   3   10   15
New tech is rarely going to eclipse old tech. That is the nature of the game. Balance.

I just do not see the boost being significant enough to justify the loss of the extra features of the standards in any case.  Besides, those extra features give the standard racks enough of an advantage in some situations to allow them to remain viable even if the streaks have a major advantage in direct combat.  After all, a Streak LRM Carrier would be a lot less useful than the standard due to the loss of indirect fire to protect its thin skin even with the weight of the IS launchers.

[Molossian Dog IIC]

For me personally indirect fire is what LRMs are all about. That is why I think a direct comparison of LRMs and SLRMs is somewhat missing the point.

[Diablo48]

For me personally indirect fire is what LRMs are all about. That is why I think a direct comparison of LRMs and SLRMs is somewhat missing the point.

Well, on the Clan side of things they do work fairly well as main weapons, but you inevitably run into comparisons to the mighty ERPPC so they rely on their other abilities to keep them viable.  For the sake of completeness, I will go ahead and run the numbers there against the SLRM 15.  ERPPC: 6 ton weapon, 7.5 tons DHS, 13.5 tons total.  SLRM 15: 7 ton weapon, 2 tons ammo, 2.5 tons DHS, 11.5 tons total.  So you save two tons, but loose the headcapping potential, 2 hexes of range, infinite ammo, and gain 2 explosive ammo crits.  Given the value of maximum range with Clan gunners and the general power of big clusters, I cannot see taking the SLRM here either.

I feel like they could have been viable if they were given 8/16/24 range, but as is they have too many drawbacks and not enough advantages to ever be worth taking instead of other Clan weapons.

[cold1]

The proliferation of clan tech makes sense now...
ERPPCs and LRMs being the first clan tech to really get some traction is smart since they are the systems that totally blow away their IS counterparts.  I'd love to see an Archer 8M upgrade with clan weapons now.

The increase in heavy lasers makes sense, guess they weren't just new toy syndrome.  I like that the out of universe designers now know how to mount them effectively now. 

It's a shame iATMs are homeworld only.  They bring a whole level of bad mother to game play.  I would like to see what the design folks could do with them.

[Maelwys]

I'm sort of curious about the proliferation of the Heavy Gauss Rifle. It seems like every other design has the iHGR, though that might just be a perception bias.

[Rorke]

3145 stuff that I've seen so far, does feel less "zeitgeisty".  I mean the inane numbers of mechs with
IJJ doesn't seem to be repeated here.

It me, or has there been a bit of a trend towards 65 tonners though?

[Sartris]

3145 stuff that I've seen so far, does feel less "zeitgeisty".  I mean the inane numbers of mechs with
IJJ doesn't seem to be repeated here.

It me, or has there been a bit of a trend towards 65 tonners though?

I had a similar thought about 75 tonners so I went back and counted unique chassis by weight. The results weren't what I expected.

TRO 3145 series -Unique Chassis by weight (variants / omni configs not counted):

15 - 2
20 - 1
25 - 3
30 - 5 
35 - 11

40 - 4
45 - 3
50 - 8
55 - 6

60 - 4
65 - 6
70 - 4
75 - 10

80 - 5
85 - 3
90 - 2
95 - 2
100 - 6

125 - 1
135 - 1

[Maelwys]

The 35 tonners I expected. I recall flipping through them and wondering when they were going to end. The 75 tonners is soft of a surprise.

I wonder if that's a conscious decision, perhaps to give everyone a 75 tonner since they seem to be more efficient than some of the heavy weight classes.

[jymset]

I wonder if that's a conscious decision, perhaps to give everyone a 75 tonner since they seem to be more efficient than some of the heavy weight classes.

Nope, that is very much indicated by DA. Discounting the QuadVees (1 each of the highest possible tonnage of Light, Medium, Heavy), and thus subtracing 1 from each total, 8/10 of the 35-tonners and 7/9 of the 75-tonners were from MW DA/AoD. Since one each also came from Brent Evans concept art, and we did our best to respect the artist's visions, that just leaves 1 of each weight as a wholly new design. And that ain't exactly much. 8)

[Deadborder]

Nope, that is very much indicated by DA. Discounting the QuadVees (1 each of the highest possible tonnage of Light, Medium, Heavy), and thus subtracing 1 from each total, 8/10 of the 35-tonners and 7/9 of the 75-tonners were from MW DA/AoD. Since one each also came from Brent Evans concept art, and we did our best to respect the artist's visions, that just leaves 1 of each weight as a wholly new design. And that ain't exactly much. 8)

I'm curious as to which ones were the concept art. The Hollander III, IIRC is one, but the other?

[jymset]

Uraeus O0

[Deadborder]

Uraeus O0

There you go. It's pretty much unrecongiseable there unless you know what to look for!

OTOH, its amazing how many of the TRO3145 BAs are based on unused Evans concepts

[Fat Guy]

I'm curious as to which ones were the concept art. The Hollander III, IIRC is one, but the other?

 Kishi, Spectre, Ogre, Quirinus, and the Ant Lion as well.

[False Son]

The proliferation of clan tech makes sense now...

Let's not forget it swings both ways, just not as far.  The Wulfen having Stealth Armor is one of those things that in hindsight seems like a no brainer.  It may have just been a barrier the mindset of the clans who first invaded.  They lagged behind in BA stealth armor, as well.  Then again, if I made Elemental BA i'd be tempted to overlook stealth, as well.

What interests me is seeing things like standard ACs on mixed tech, clan produced designs (you know who i'm talking about).  That brings up the question of swapping PACs for LACs and gaining specialized ammo.  Worth a shot.

3145 stuff that I've seen so far, does feel less "zeitgeisty".  I mean the inane numbers of mechs with
IJJ doesn't seem to be repeated here.

Maybe it depends on your qualifications for zeitgeisty.  I see the era as prolific, combined arms and MUNCH.  To that end, every faction got all kinds of tech and a mixture of underwhelming and super silly.  Even the clans got decent vehicles, and not just the Horses.  To me, that is zeitgeisty.  It's not another rehash of "It's the 3050s!  Everyone, spam 2 weapon types!".  When I look at it, CapCon uses more TSEMP than anyone, but that's just one tech.  It's not like CapCon is "The TSEMP faction" or FedSuns are "The CERLL faction".  They just use more than others.

[CloaknDagger]

Let's not forget it swings both ways, just not as far.  The Wulfen having Stealth Armor is one of those things that in hindsight seems like a no brainer.  It may have just been a barrier the mindset of the clans who first invaded.  They lagged behind in BA stealth armor, as well.  Then again, if I made Elemental BA i'd be tempted to overlook stealth, as well.

Actually, stealth armor is a no-brainer for the Clans.

In the sense that they have to have no brain to use it.

The Society apparently had plans for Chameleon and Null Sig just lying around, and that's not even touching the Void Sig that was old hat by 3145. Why Stealth Armor even exists at all is the better question.

[Col Toda]

On the increase of Streak LRM just means an increase to Angel ECM something I upgraded to by 3085 anyways .

[cold1]

Actually, stealth armor is a no-brainer for the Clans.

In the sense that they have to have no brain to use it.

The Society apparently had plans for Chameleon and Null Sig just lying around, and that's not even touching the Void Sig that was old hat by 3145. Why Stealth Armor even exists at all is the better question.

Well since the warriors caste used to live by the rules of honorable dueling, yes it makes sense the clans would not use it.  Now that the Inner Sphere clans have loosened up a bit, it makes sense for them to start using it. 

The IS clans did not have a lot of opportunity to capture Society tech and research.  The Sharks might have some of it, but for the most part the Inner Sphere clans had bigger concerns during the Society rebellion.