Author Topic: 100% Genuine Fake Rules  (Read 19019 times)

Xotl

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100% Genuine Fake Rules
« on: 28 October 2016, 21:24:04 »
What are the most common fake rules you encounter when playing BT?  Not one-off oddballs, but ones that seem to keep coming up again and again.  Stuff like the classic "hatchets always roll on the punch table" and the like.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #1 on: 28 October 2016, 21:34:17 »
"VTOLs must land before firing artillery."
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #2 on: 29 October 2016, 06:03:59 »
"Ghost targets protect against being tagged"


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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #3 on: 29 October 2016, 08:57:39 »
Speaking of TAG, "Successfully hitting a target with a TAG laser gives a to-hit bonus to all indirect LRM  attacks fired at the TAGged unit"

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #4 on: 29 October 2016, 10:49:52 »
Speaking of TAG, "Successfully hitting a target with a TAG laser gives a to-hit bonus to all indirect LRM  attacks fired at the TAGged unit"
It only allows it right? But with semi guided ammo you dont count target's movement modifier and +1 for indirect doesnt apply. So technically not a bonus but tagging allows to hit easier (if you have semi guided ammo which costs additional bv).

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #5 on: 29 October 2016, 11:13:32 »
Speaking of...
It only allows it right?
"TAG does anything at all for LRM IDF if you're using anything other than semi-guided missiles."

"C3 does anything at all for IDF of any kind."
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #6 on: 29 October 2016, 12:18:33 »
well in MWO TAG does help make missiles more accurate . though there it can stack with the effects of NARC and Artemis which is a whole other can of worms. but the MWO use of TAG might explain why that false idea has stuck around.

Luciora

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #7 on: 29 October 2016, 19:31:22 »
TAG's introduction predates MWO by a longshot.  Players will always interpret fizzy rules to their advantage without errata/clarifications.

well in MWO TAG does help make missiles more accurate . though there it can stack with the effects of NARC and Artemis which is a whole other can of worms. but the MWO use of TAG might explain why that false idea has stuck around.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #8 on: 31 October 2016, 10:34:52 »
Guardian/Clan ECM blocks Streaks.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #9 on: 31 October 2016, 12:25:34 »
Floating crits are the default.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #10 on: 01 November 2016, 05:59:31 »
Guardian/Clan ECM blocks Streaks.

Could have sworn it did....did that change at some point?

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #11 on: 01 November 2016, 07:53:44 »
To my knowledge, it never did.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #12 on: 01 November 2016, 08:46:39 »
Could have sworn it did....did that change at some point?

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When I first encountered someone making that claim at a con, after I got home, I pulled out my original TROs 2750, 3050 and my old Battletech Compendium (1990) and Streaks weren't on the list of affected equipment in any of them.  It seems logical that it would, but so far as I know, it never has.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #13 on: 01 November 2016, 08:49:30 »
People must be conflating Angel ECM for other ECM types.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #14 on: 01 November 2016, 10:41:29 »
People must be conflating Angel ECM for other ECM types.

Could be, though in that first case I ran into, that same player also claimed that mechs always fell from at least level 2 because they're 2 levels tall (along with a few other odd ideas regarding facing).  So, there I suspect it was a case of either not knowing the rules well or conflating his group's house rules with the official rules.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #15 on: 01 November 2016, 10:44:56 »
Speaking of facing...
Torso twists affect which facing an attack hits.

And another semi-common one...
Using the old Anti-Missile rules (roll 1d6 for # destroyed) rather than the current TW rules (-4 on the Cluster roll).
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #16 on: 01 November 2016, 10:48:45 »
Could be, though in that first case I ran into, that same player also claimed that mechs always fell from at least level 2 because they're 2 levels tall (along with a few other odd ideas regarding facing).  So, there I suspect it was a case of either not knowing the rules well or conflating his group's house rules with the official rules.
Similarly, I've heard people say that mechs take double damage from artillery and other AE weapons, because they get hit at each level of their height. Needless to say...no.
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Xotl

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #17 on: 01 November 2016, 11:52:37 »
Similarly, I've heard people say that mechs take double damage from artillery and other AE weapons, because they get hit at each level of their height. Needless to say...no.

Hah hah, oh wow.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #18 on: 01 November 2016, 12:58:02 »
People must be conflating Angel ECM for other ECM types.
I'm guilty of this, up till now. This thread prompted me to look up the rules again: its Angel ECM which negates Streak bonuses, whereas Guardian only negates Artemis IV bonuses.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #19 on: 01 November 2016, 15:47:13 »
2 always misses, 12 always hits.

You can run through water.  And you don't need those pesky piloting rolls for doing it OR the breach chances when you fail.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #20 on: 01 November 2016, 16:22:04 »
You can run through water.  And you don't need those pesky piloting rolls for doing it OR the breach chances when you fail.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #21 on: 01 November 2016, 18:46:33 »
"No breaches" probably comes from Introductory Rules, which omit that thing. I think? But they do prevent running in water.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #22 on: 01 November 2016, 21:50:13 »
And another semi-common one...
Using the old Anti-Missile rules (roll 1d6 for # destroyed) rather than the current TW rules (-4 on the Cluster roll).

I think this may be more just trying to block out how stupid the new rule is and how it makes the AMS of very limited use.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #23 on: 02 November 2016, 02:07:20 »
On the Streak/ECM thing, in the copy of 1691 I have for Guardian ECM Streaks are not on the affected listing nor on the unaffected listing.

As for torso twists and attacks, well unless you've got something marking which way the 'Mech is actually facing as opposed to it's torso ...

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #24 on: 02 November 2016, 08:47:54 »
I think this may be more just trying to block out how stupid the new rule is and how it makes the AMS of very limited use.

Actually, it does not.

With the old rules, AMS would destroy about 12 (24 for Clan AMS) missiles, then become useless for lack of ammo, unless you gave it more than one ton of ammo. IIRC it would also waste itself against missed missile salvoes. Basically it was good for three or four rounds per ton of ammo.

With the new rules, sure, the number of missiles destroyed each time it activates goes down, unless you have IS AMS and it intercepts salvoes of 20 or more missiles, in which case  the number can go up considerably, up to (IIRC) 16 out of 40. But since its ammunition lasts so much longer than previously, over the course of any battle that lasts more than about four rounds, the total number of missiles destroyed will be considerably higher than under the old rules.

If I had to choose between old rules and new rules, I´d prefer the new rules. Though if I could pick and choose, the old rules´ effects and new rules´ ammo useage would be an even better combination.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #25 on: 02 November 2016, 14:08:26 »
Floating crits are the default.

They SHOULD be, though.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #26 on: 03 November 2016, 12:05:05 »
It was never a gameplay issue, but in my mind I always thought CASE worked like CASE II and CASE II would allow the ammo explosion, but not any IS damage or chance for cascading crits. Dunno where I got that, maybe from reading the fiction for a while before playing.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #27 on: 03 November 2016, 15:53:49 »
I'm guilty of this, up till now. This thread prompted me to look up the rules again: its Angel ECM which negates Streak bonuses, whereas Guardian only negates Artemis IV bonuses.

Atleast I'm in good company.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #28 on: 03 November 2016, 16:55:58 »
'VTOL rotors will be destroyed by anything that hits them'


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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #29 on: 03 November 2016, 16:59:16 »
you can eject whenever

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #30 on: 04 November 2016, 01:48:32 »
Actually, it does not.

With the old rules, AMS would destroy about 12 (24 for Clan AMS) missiles, then become useless for lack of ammo, unless you gave it more than one ton of ammo. IIRC it would also waste itself against missed missile salvoes. Basically it was good for three or four rounds per ton of ammo.

With the new rules, sure, the number of missiles destroyed each time it activates goes down, unless you have IS AMS and it intercepts salvoes of 20 or more missiles, in which case  the number can go up considerably, up to (IIRC) 16 out of 40. But since its ammunition lasts so much longer than previously, over the course of any battle that lasts more than about four rounds, the total number of missiles destroyed will be considerably higher than under the old rules.

If I had to choose between old rules and new rules, I´d prefer the new rules. Though if I could pick and choose, the old rules´ effects and new rules´ ammo useage would be an even better combination.
I agree that the old effect and new ammo would have been the way to go. How it is now you get a -4, unless they also have Artemis IV FCS then it is only an -2 and the AMS only works against missiles. From what I have seen (not at all scientific I know) Artemis IV FCS is much more common than AMS. If you replaced the AMS with ECM then you end up with the same effective -2 and it works on more than just the missiles. I guess this is why I think that the new rules are so stupid. Also the fact that you can no longer shoot down all the missiles in a salvo. If it had been up to me I would have done it like you said but with the extra that it can shoot at every salvo fired at the unit during the turn.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #31 on: 04 November 2016, 10:09:50 »
If you replaced the AMS with ECM then you end up with the same effective -2 and it works on more than just the missiles. I guess this is why I think that the new rules are so stupid.

Clearly you didn't read the first page. ECM doesn't affect Artemis.

There are additional rules in TacOps that allow you to shoot down an entire salvo.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #32 on: 04 November 2016, 10:28:04 »
Clearly you didn't read the first page. ECM doesn't affect Artemis.

Huh? Page 134 of TW says otherwise ;)

Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #33 on: 04 November 2016, 10:29:19 »
Huh? Page 134 of TW says otherwise ;)

Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the effects of Artemis IV fire control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fired as normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus.


Clearly my cold medication is blocking the effect of my brain.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #34 on: 04 November 2016, 10:36:17 »
Clearly my cold medication is blocking the effect of my brain.

Or...it's a 100% Genuine Fake Rule! :D
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #35 on: 04 November 2016, 10:41:32 »
The AMS does have other uses, though. While Artemis IV is popular, you aren't assured of running into it, ECM can be countered, ECM doesn't help against Thunderbolt missiles while I believe AMS has about a 50/50 chance of killing those. There might have been an optional rule for using them as a limited machine gun somewhere.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #36 on: 04 November 2016, 11:15:04 »
If you replaced the AMS with ECM then you end up with the same effective -2 and it works on more than just the missiles.

That's not how this math works.  Artemis (+2) and AMS (-4) overlap for a cumulative -2.  Artemis (+2) negated by ECM (-2) results in a net 0, not a net negative for missiles.  You will be hit by more missiles with an ECM than with an AMS unless your opponent rolled poorly in the first place, or they rolled a 12 on an SRM-2.

Additionally, TL level ECM doesn't affect Streaks, but AMS will reduce every single Streak launcher by a minimum of 1 missile (1 on the -2, 1 on the -4, 2 on the -6).
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #37 on: 04 November 2016, 15:55:56 »
Sounds like AMS plus ECM would be the best counter to Artemis. Negate that bonus, then shoot down a ton of missiles

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #38 on: 04 November 2016, 16:52:59 »
Uh, ECM basically negates Artemis IV/V bonus completely. Then the missiles act as normal missiles. ECM alone is counter to Artemis.
AMS vs any missiles is a nice thing to have in the long run, especially as it reduces head hits and TACs (damage negated is rather light after all).

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #39 on: 04 November 2016, 17:19:19 »

AMS vs any missiles is a nice thing to have in the long run, especially as it reduces head hits and TACs (damage negated is rather light after all).

How so? AMS does nothing to change where a missile hits/rolls for hit location.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #40 on: 04 November 2016, 17:30:10 »
How so? AMS does nothing to change where a missile hits/rolls for hit location.
Fewer missiles, fewer chances for head hits or TACs. Though perhaps i should note this affects SRMs more than LRMs.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #41 on: 04 November 2016, 18:44:00 »
The AMS does have other uses, though. While Artemis IV is popular, you aren't assured of running into it, ECM can be countered, ECM doesn't help against Thunderbolt missiles while I believe AMS has about a 50/50 chance of killing those. There might have been an optional rule for using them as a limited machine gun somewhere.
Inspired by real world CIWS no doubt O0 the 50/50 chance against Thunderbolts is also applicable to Narc I think, as a single shot missile weapon?

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #42 on: 04 November 2016, 19:16:34 »
Possible fake rule...

"Apollo FCS can be turned off (ie the -1 cluster penalty is replaced by +1 to hit penalty as usual)".

I swear i've seen people mention this, but i'm pretty sure that isn't actually possible, at least under TW/TO rules if the item predates TW.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #43 on: 05 November 2016, 00:02:50 »
I'm not sure if you can shut off Apollo at the moment, but you will be, as the BattleMech Manual will have a blanket rule regarding activating and deactivating electronics that will be ported back to TW via errata.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #44 on: 05 November 2016, 07:52:08 »
Does that include Artemis IV (such option being presumably all or nothing, like Apollo)? Not sure why anyone would want to do that but just wondering.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #45 on: 05 November 2016, 10:59:26 »
Yeah, it does.  And agreed, not sure why anyone would want to, but it's a blanket ruling so it's going to drag in some things that no one will care about.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #46 on: 05 November 2016, 12:10:27 »
a few advanced rules in TacOps but aren't standard, a la floating crits

* Mechs can walk backwards down hill with a PSR
* Mechs can prop and fire with one arm destroyed
* Units can pass through hexes with immobilized enemy units
* Mechs can flip arms and torso twist

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glitterboy2098

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #47 on: 05 November 2016, 13:11:11 »
for the longest time, i thought that you had a PSR penalty for every 20 damage you took, so that taking 40 or 60 damage is 2 and 3 times worse penalty than taking 20.

of course by the rules it is a flat penalty above 20 damage.

i'd been playing with groups that used that houserule/advanced rule, and hadn't realized. after my brothers and i figured out that we'd been running the official rule wrong, we did keep using it though.. since it did make for more interesting battles. we just knew to check with the person runnign the games in the future to find out whether they were going to use the official version or not.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #48 on: 05 November 2016, 13:13:27 »
a few advanced rules in TacOps but aren't standard, a la floating crits

Some of those I've encountered (the arm prop one, mostly).

for the longest time, i thought that you had a PSR penalty for every 20 damage you took, so that taking 40 or 60 damage is 2 and 3 times worse penalty than taking 20.

of course by the rules it is a flat penalty above 20 damage.

i'd been playing with groups that used that houserule/advanced rule, and hadn't realized. after my brothers and i figured out that we'd been running the official rule wrong, we did keep using it though.. since it did make for more interesting battles. we just knew to check with the person runnign the games in the future to find out whether they were going to use the official version or not.

Yeah, that one is really common, now that I think about it.

All of them are listed in the upcoming Manual as optional rules, so there'll be no mistaking them for standard stuff if you have that book. :)
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #49 on: 07 November 2016, 11:40:52 »
for the longest time, i thought that you had a PSR penalty for every 20 damage you took, so that taking 40 or 60 damage is 2 and 3 times worse penalty than taking 20.

of course by the rules it is a flat penalty above 20 damage.

i'd been playing with groups that used that houserule/advanced rule, and hadn't realized. after my brothers and i figured out that we'd been running the official rule wrong, we did keep using it though.. since it did make for more interesting battles. we just knew to check with the person runnign the games in the future to find out whether they were going to use the official version or not.

I've house ruled that FOREVER.  More damage should matter.  Unless I run a game that is meant for beginners or strict tournament rules I used that rule.  I think it is in Tac Ops.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #50 on: 07 November 2016, 15:52:13 »
I like and use it too in MM because it stops the assault bum-rush . . . sure the assault can survive 40 or 60 damage spread across the armor but a player would not risk that if getting that +2 or +3 for the PSR which increases the odds of them falling over.

Heck I have seen assaults survive the 80+ damage, it was spread out enough it did not do much.  Then that 90 tonner fell over to tear itself up . . . or at least get easier to hit as it got up.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #51 on: 07 November 2016, 19:26:19 »
I've house ruled that FOREVER.  More damage should matter.  Unless I run a game that is meant for beginners or strict tournament rules I used that rule.  I think it is in Tac Ops.

it is indeed in tacops. we don't use it because counting is hard.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #52 on: 07 November 2016, 19:34:46 »
That particular rule is why I love Hull-Down rules.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #53 on: 08 November 2016, 00:45:10 »
I had a discussion with Xotl several years ago and was never too happy with the answer (Might have to raise the question again, some of errata seems to have gone walkabouts):
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #54 on: 08 November 2016, 20:37:03 »
I've house ruled that FOREVER.  More damage should matter.  Unless I run a game that is meant for beginners or strict tournament rules I used that rule.  I think it is in Tac Ops.

There is a "stacking 20's" rule in TacOps that adds +1 to the PSR for every 20 points the unit takes, BUT, the other half of the rule that is often forgotten about/overlooked is that the PSR is also modified by the weight class of the unit making the PSR.

L = +1,
M = 0,
H = -1, and
A = -2)

So, if you're using the stacking 20's rule and your Atlas takes 40+ points of damage in a turn, he's going to make a PSR with a +2 penalty (for the stacking 20's) and a -2 bonus (for being an assault mech).

At the end of the day, IMO, the use of the full stacking 20's rule unfairly reduces the value of a light mech without actually reflecting it in BV2.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #55 on: 08 November 2016, 23:08:14 »
Just saying, if your lights are taking 20+ points of damage in a turn, something's wrong, unless it's the last thing you have.

Or it's a very sad Urbie.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #56 on: 08 November 2016, 23:42:15 »
I think MM splits that . . . and I like that it is for the previously mentioned reason.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #57 on: 09 November 2016, 02:26:27 »
C_gee the loss of value You are talking about is offsetted by another TacOps rule that grants -2 to hit for physical attacks for light mechs.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #58 on: 09 November 2016, 15:10:49 »
I like and use it too in MM because it stops the assault bum-rush . . . sure the assault can survive 40 or 60 damage spread across the armor but a player would not risk that if getting that +2 or +3 for the PSR which increases the odds of them falling over.

Heck I have seen assaults survive the 80+ damage, it was spread out enough it did not do much.  Then that 90 tonner fell over to tear itself up . . . or at least get easier to hit as it got up.

Best I saw was an Atlas get lit up by a light Ghost Bear BINARY, take 163 points of damage, roll a 12 for his piloting check and the player used an Edge to make it the 13 he required.

The Ghost Bears left.  They decided they weren't gonna screw around with that guy and the rest of his company.   :D
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #59 on: 09 November 2016, 15:22:30 »
C_gee the loss of value You are talking about is offsetted by another TacOps rule that grants -2 to hit for physical attacks for light mechs.

I'm not 100% familiar with the rule you're talking about, but the only way such a rule would offset the stacking 20's rule is if you choose to use that rule. That's the thing about TacOps rules. They're all optional.

That being said, the two parts of the stacking 20's rules aren't meant to be independently optional. If you choose to use Stacking 20's, then you're meant to use both parts of it.

Any other rule you also choose to use is irrelevant to whether or not Stacking 20's unbalances the true value of light mechs.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #60 on: 09 November 2016, 22:31:22 »
If your name is JadeHellbringer and you play this game, you will never have bad dice rolls.

I will let him explain if this rule is fake or not...  ;)

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #61 on: 03 December 2016, 21:31:57 »
One of my players used to exploit the old FASA-era partial cover rules (higher to-hit penalty, but roll on the punch location table).  We've been playing with TW rules since they were brand new and he still occasionally tries to use the old rule.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #62 on: 04 December 2016, 00:53:33 »
Stuff like the classic "hatchets always roll on the punch table" and the like.
If I'm remembering my lore right that one about hatchets was actually based on a similar one for clubs.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #63 on: 04 December 2016, 17:35:20 »
A 0/0 pilot always hits.... even with Pulse lasers and at Short Range.

WRONG! Roll a 2 and it always misses...

Hell even a 7/7 can hit on a 12!

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #64 on: 04 December 2016, 17:53:00 »
huh . . ?
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #65 on: 04 December 2016, 17:54:44 »
huh . . ?

I think Hellraiser suggest that people play with non-existent rule that 2 is a critical fail effectively and that 12 is a critical success, regardless of whether they'd be hits or misses otherwise.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #66 on: 04 December 2016, 18:22:37 »
Ah, IIRC MWDA had that as a rule . . . which is where I could see it.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #67 on: 05 December 2016, 05:18:26 »
Actually I think there is a rule about such numbers, just can't seem to find it in a quick look at TW

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #68 on: 05 December 2016, 08:31:31 »
Actually I think there is a rule about such numbers, just can't seem to find it in a quick look at TW
No such rule exists.

What does exist is this:
A modified to-hit number of over 12 means the shot is automatic miss, in which case the player can declare they actually won't do the attack at all.
A modified to-hit number of under 2 always hits but depending on the weapon, the roll still must be made (eg Ultras jam on result of 2).

TacOps has Fumble rules, where roll of 2 is a miss and results in a second roll where 12 causes damage to the weapon.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #69 on: 05 December 2016, 11:22:55 »
It is possible....extremely possible, that the rule DID EXIST in relation to BattleTech, but not as people think.

It has been a long, long time since I played the Clicky Version, and based on most other game of it's Ilk, I can easily see the Double-1's being an auto miss, and the Double-6's an auto hit regardless of the number needed to hit. This is pretty common in most other tabletop games, Warhammer has 6's always succeed, and 1's always fail. D&D has long held to the the 20 always hits, and 1 always misses.

And, a quick Dowloand and perusal of the Clicky Rules (Found here) does indeed show the 2 a Miss, 12 a Hit rule:

From the Book, Pages 14-15:

Rolling 2 and 12 on the White Dice
Whenever you give a ranged combat or close combat order to a unit and roll a 2 on the
two white dice, you automatically miss the target. This is called a critical miss. Your unit
must turn its combat dial clockwise 1 click after the critical miss. This represents a weapon
backfire or your unit damaging itself during the order.


and

If you roll a 12 on the two white dice, you have automatically hit the target. This is called
a critical hit. If you were trying to damage the affected unit or units, the critical hit delivers 1
extra click of damage to each affected unit.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #70 on: 05 December 2016, 15:34:13 »
well, i do remember this "rule" from the mid-nineties , way before mwda clicky-tech stuff.
i suppose it comes from mechwarrior rpg, where you have fumbles, i.e. a double-one is always a failure...
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #71 on: 14 December 2016, 02:15:09 »
A modified to-hit number of under 2 always hits but depending on the weapon, the roll still must be made (eg Ultras jam on result of 2).
This and the direct hit rules might be the source then.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #72 on: 15 December 2016, 16:03:55 »
It's just a common rule in games in general.  I'm not surprised that it spread to BT.  But the upcoming Manual should do a good job in helping quash it as a notion.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #73 on: 17 December 2016, 05:28:58 »
"You can't get headshot from the rear."

It arguably makes a lot of sense with a lot of chassis, but I don't think there's an actual rule for it.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #74 on: 17 December 2016, 06:05:30 »
"You can't get headshot from the rear."

It arguably makes a lot of sense with a lot of chassis, but I don't think there's an actual rule for it.

It would make a good quirk though, for applicable 'mechs. Head hits rolled on the rear table hit the CT rear instead, or something.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #75 on: 17 December 2016, 06:27:46 »
It would make a good quirk though, for applicable 'mechs. Head hits rolled on the rear table hit the CT rear instead, or something.

A couple people I know had an hour-long heated discussion about this when a... Stormcrow, I believe, got shot in the rear arc by a gauss rifle and suffered a headshot. After said hour of yelling they resolved to treat it as a critical torso hit instead. Since the gauss round also punched through the armour and struck internals, the hit scored a total of 3 crits. All in the engine. And that was that.

Strangely enough, the Stormcrow player was not the one who argued, but the guy who fired the Gauss and another player. (We had a free-for-all Solaris thing going)

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #76 on: 17 December 2016, 16:03:35 »
I got a strange question.

Can a mech with UMUs fire above surface with A4 and ballistic weapons?
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #77 on: 17 December 2016, 16:46:36 »
If you are surfaced, yes. You might want to check on the rules forum to see if UMUs are powerful enough to lift a mech halfway out of the water, though. I have no idea there.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #78 on: 17 December 2016, 19:18:15 »
There is a "stacking 20's" rule in TacOps that adds +1 to the PSR for every 20 points the unit takes, BUT, the other half of the rule that is often forgotten about/overlooked is that the PSR is also modified by the weight class of the unit making the PSR.

L = +1,
M = 0,
H = -1, and
A = -2)

So, if you're using the stacking 20's rule and your Atlas takes 40+ points of damage in a turn, he's going to make a PSR with a +2 penalty (for the stacking 20's) and a -2 bonus (for being an assault mech).

At the end of the day, IMO, the use of the full stacking 20's rule unfairly reduces the value of a light mech without actually reflecting it in BV2.

Wow, I did not know that.  Thanks for flagging it up, I've been playing that wrong for years.

It actually makes a lot of sense from a balance perspective, if you use the stacking damage rules without the weight class modifier, slow assault mechs have tremendous difficulty staying upright.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #79 on: 17 December 2016, 20:00:15 »
Firing high with artillery so the shells take longer to arrive.

I.e. artillery unit has a max flight time for their shells of 10 turns.  Their current location means their shells have a minimum 4 turn flight time.

So on turn X they fire so their shells will arrive in 10 turns.  On turn X+1 they fire their shells so the shells will arrive in 9 turns.  On turn X+2 for 8 turns, aso to turn X+6 firing the shells so they arrive in 4 turns (the minimum).  So on turn X+10 there are a total of 7 shells arriving.  The disadvantage is that they don't get to adjust fire until turn X+11 because the shells haven't landed yet.  The advantage (and primary use) is plotting a time on target fire mission so the PCs can cross the map, then have a massive fire mission land on their pursuers.

"Incoming artillery has right of way, and we are shelling our own position. Make sure you are not here when it arrives."

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #80 on: 18 December 2016, 01:45:20 »
You are talking about applying the Crusader's FCS- which can pump out 8 shots which will hit for a single TOT . . . we do that with various systems currently, but afaik BT rules do not reflect that situation.

But I would love to see a errata for that- just have to cut the range in half for that sort of shot IMO.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #81 on: 18 December 2016, 14:42:37 »
Firing high with artillery so the shells take longer to arrive.

I.e. artillery unit has a max flight time for their shells of 10 turns.  Their current location means their shells have a minimum 4 turn flight time.

So on turn X they fire so their shells will arrive in 10 turns.  On turn X+1 they fire their shells so the shells will arrive in 9 turns.  On turn X+2 for 8 turns, aso to turn X+6 firing the shells so they arrive in 4 turns (the minimum).  So on turn X+10 there are a total of 7 shells arriving.  The disadvantage is that they don't get to adjust fire until turn X+11 because the shells haven't landed yet.  The advantage (and primary use) is plotting a time on target fire mission so the PCs can cross the map, then have a massive fire mission land on their pursuers.

"Incoming artillery has right of way, and we are shelling our own position. Make sure you are not here when it arrives."

That doesn't make any logical sense, though. You're firing a shell, not a rocket.

If you change the angle of your gun, your shot will go further. I mean, that's how you get range on artillery guns to begin with. By using the ballistic arc and maths. Sure, eventually your arc will be so high that the range starts decreasing again, but that still means there are only two angles at which a gun can hit any one spot. Which would allow you to hit a target later that usual, yes, but only in a set interval.

Range12345678910
Outgoing arcx+1x+2x+3x+4x+5x+6x+7x+8x+9x+10
Incoming arcx+19x+18x+17x+16x+15x+14x+13x+12x+11x+10
Not perfect and kinda assumes the shells move at terminal velocity but, yunno. It makes my point.

« Last Edit: 18 December 2016, 14:44:37 by r0sshk »

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #82 on: 18 December 2016, 16:26:03 »
Vary the propellant charge. That's how it's done IRL. Fire N rounds with different muzzle velocity at high angle, then N more with low angle, and you can put 6-8 rounds on the target almost simultaneously.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #83 on: 18 December 2016, 17:31:50 »
Vary the propellant charge. That's how it's done IRL. Fire N rounds with different muzzle velocity at high angle, then N more with low angle, and you can put 6-8 rounds on the target almost simultaneously.
Which requires specialized equipment that does not appear to exist in the Battletech Universe.

Though granted, I guess a veteran gun crew might be able to prepare a volley like that if they had plenty time to prepare and knew exactly what and where their target was.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #84 on: 18 December 2016, 18:32:41 »
Which requires specialized equipment that does not appear to exist in the Battletech Universe.

Though granted, I guess a veteran gun crew might be able to prepare a volley like that if they had plenty time to prepare and knew exactly what and where their target was.

In what way does this require specialized equipment?

It requires two-piece ammunition where the payload and the propellant are separate components, letting you vary the amount of propellant to use. That was done on world war 1 howitzers. Then you just have to have a table of flight times for different propellant loads and angles of fire.

I remember doing this in a game once and surprising my opponent, by having artillery target two different map sheet thresholds so that one shot had a 2 turn flight time and the next had a 1 turn flight time, so they impacted at about the same time near the same spot. Made it look like i had more artillery.
« Last Edit: 18 December 2016, 18:38:07 by jh316 »

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #85 on: 18 December 2016, 19:35:22 »
In what way does this require specialized equipment?

It requires two-piece ammunition where the payload and the propellant are separate components, letting you vary the amount of propellant to use. That was done on world war 1 howitzers. Then you just have to have a table of flight times for different propellant loads and angles of fire.

I remember doing this in a game once and surprising my opponent, by having artillery target two different map sheet thresholds so that one shot had a 2 turn flight time and the next had a 1 turn flight time, so they impacted at about the same time near the same spot. Made it look like i had more artillery.

They didn't have a single gun drop two shots at the same time with WW1 howitzers. They did organize several different guns with different ranges in different positions to fire at different times and strike the enemy at the same time (accounting for different travel times and muzzle velocities by having the watches of the gun crews synchronized to the second and telling them exactly when to fire), but never from the same cannon. That wasn't technically feasible until the 60s or 70s. I think. My memory might be off a little, correct me if I'm wrong.

But even then, those guns were specially built for this exact ability. With pre-measured propellant loads, high rate of fire and special targeting computers. Normal propellant charges just don't allow for the precision required for these shots, especially if you're picking targets for them on the fly.
Again, as I said, if you have some veteran gunners with time at their hands who know exactly how far their target is gonna be, that might be a different matter.

The thing you mentioned might be the exception, of course. Propellants used for different distances in general, and striking at a target that is moving in the sweet-spot covered by both charges. Requires your target to be in that sweet-spot, however.

idea weenie

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #86 on: 18 December 2016, 23:16:58 »
Which requires specialized equipment that does not appear to exist in the Battletech Universe.

Though granted, I guess a veteran gun crew might be able to prepare a volley like that if they had plenty time to prepare and knew exactly what and where their target was.

BT artillery already allows for artillery guns at different distances from the target hex to have their shells take different flight times, with no change to the shots per ton.  IIRC the flight time is 1 turn for every 2 mapsheets of range, so if a Long Tom is 20 mapsheets away, the shell will take 10 turns to arrive.  If that same Long Tom is 4 mapsheets away, the shell will take 2 turns to arrive.  No notes about needing to change the ammunition, just fire and hope it lands near.

As for specialized equipment, we use it today with mortars.  Adjust the angle, adjust the number of 'augmentation charges' added per shot, and you can get different muzzle velocities.  Different velocities at different angles when done right mean multiple shots landing at nearly the same time.

Now if the shells are fixed charges, then the distance is determined solely by gun angle.  You can get a second shot by angling the gun closer to vertical, but that will take 10 turns to arrive, and the lower angle will take the 1 turn per 2 map sheets flight time.

For sweet spot of multiple charges, check the ranges chart for the British 81mm L16 mortar.  If a target is 1700 meters away, there are 5 charges that allow a shot to be dropped on the target, allowing for changing the firing angle and making sure the math is right.

So we'd need a message from the mods to determine if adjusting the firing charge is allowed for artillery (similar to adjusting the number of bags for the 16" guns on the Iowas), or if the cartridge is a single unit.


But that is an interesting idea for Arrow IV though.  Have the missiles circle the battlefield, then on turn Y all the missiles in orbit (plus the one arriving that turn) look for the TAG light (or the target hex).
« Last Edit: 19 December 2016, 00:23:20 by idea weenie »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #87 on: 19 December 2016, 15:34:11 »
Munitions in Battletech aren't nearly that smart.
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jh316

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #88 on: 19 December 2016, 20:51:55 »
Munitions in Battletech aren't nearly that smart.

Swarm-I seems pretty smart.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #89 on: 19 December 2016, 21:04:31 »
If Swarm-Is were in any way smart, they wouldn't go after friendly units at all.

(I know that's for balance reasons, but calling Swarm-Is smart is like praising the intelligence of a person who has learned to close his eyes before walking into the wall, when everyone else uses the doorway.)
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Force of Nature

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #90 on: 19 December 2016, 22:38:01 »
YouTube Time on Target Artillery

Sir Chaos

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #91 on: 20 December 2016, 05:32:21 »
If Swarm-Is were in any way smart, they wouldn't go after friendly units at all.

(I know that's for balance reasons, but calling Swarm-Is smart is like praising the intelligence of a person who has learned to close his eyes before walking into the wall, when everyone else uses the doorway.)

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #92 on: 20 December 2016, 11:56:29 »
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man probably has the worst hearing. ^-^
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Cryhavok101

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #93 on: 20 December 2016, 12:01:00 »
In the land of the blind, the one eyed person is probably a pariah for his crazy ideas about vision. He was probably kicked out of society and lives on stolen meals.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #94 on: 20 December 2016, 12:04:00 »
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed is king.

Until he realizes there are no light switches.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #95 on: 27 December 2016, 14:25:05 »
(I know that's for balance reasons, but calling Swarm-Is smart is like praising the intelligence of a person who has learned to close his eyes before walking into the wall, when everyone else uses the doorway.)

Hey if he does it enough times he'll make his own doorway. Then won't you feel silly criticizing him?
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #96 on: 27 December 2016, 14:49:09 »
I'll criticize him from behind the second wall, the steel-reinforced one. And keep a car handy in case he gets through that one.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #97 on: 27 December 2016, 15:18:36 »
I'd just put d4s and lego in his path. He'll either bleed out or beg for death long before he breaks through anything.

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #98 on: 29 January 2017, 20:19:14 »
you can eject whenever

You can, you just have to declare it in the end faze of the tern before you eject. (I don't have TO handy at the  moment so correct me if I'm wrong.)
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #99 on: 30 January 2017, 03:30:41 »
You may wish to re-read the first post in this thread.
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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #100 on: 16 February 2017, 20:05:32 »
Floating crits are the default.

+1

I learned BT from friends who had the books. It wasn't until about 15 years later when TW came out that I realized this wasn't the "default".

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #101 on: 16 February 2017, 20:34:11 »
By the way, thanks all for contributing to this thread.  In case it didn't become clear, I was collecting information and material for the Common Misconceptions chapter of the BattleMech Manual.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

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Re: 100% Genuine Fake Rules
« Reply #102 on: 16 February 2017, 22:14:44 »
By the way, thanks all for contributing to this thread.  In case it didn't become clear, I was collecting information and material for the Common Misconceptions chapter of the BattleMech Manual.

You can also add this one: a target movement modifier is always based on the total number of hexes the 'Mech moved.

While it's usually correct, there is an exception: the 'Mech declared walking movement, moved backwards to some point and then moved forward. In this case only the hexes the 'Mech moved forward are counted when determining the target movement modifier.

That's a subtle moment, I think, I am not the only person who had such misconception for some time.