Author Topic: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?  (Read 3926 times)

JA Baker

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What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« on: 16 November 2019, 05:55:50 »
As in, what did they intend to do after took Terra, subjugated the Successor States and reformed the Star League in their image?

Ignoring the fact that I don't think they could have done the latter two, I can't see how their model of society could possibly work on such a massive scale. There's just too many worlds in the Inner Sphere (2,000, according to Sarna.net), with too many people for a comparatively small military to impose their will on. And that's not counting even the near Periphery. They'd have to either penny-packet their units to try and garrison everywhere, risking defeat in detail, or concentrate larger forces in hub systems, and forever be running around putting down rebellions and civil insurrection.

And trade? Diamond Sharks aside, I don't think any of them understand how an economy works. And making grandiose statements about how the lower casts exist to support the warriors will only get you so far when a few billion workers across the entire Inner Sphere decide to go on strike at once. You need Bread and Circuses to keep the masses placated, but I don't see the average Clan Warrior understanding that.

To quote Ser Jorah Mormont: "The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace."

Most people in the Inner Sphere don't really care who's flag flies overhead or who's face appears on the money in their pocket, because, on the basic level, the House Lords knew that keeping the people at least content kept them from upsetting the order of things. The Clans plan on flipping the entire table and dancing a jig on the mess they made.

How would they pull it off?
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marauder648

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #1 on: 16 November 2019, 06:25:51 »
I don't think they knew.

Really the Clans seemed to be planning this.

1 - Invade Inner Sphere
2 - Kick barbarian butt
3 - Conquer Terra
4 - fight for ilClan
5 - ????????
6 - ????????
7 - ????????

It was always seemingly a case of "I didn't think it would get this far..." with the Clans, at least in my mind. They even had a 'prize' for getting Terra and becoming IlClan, the Free Guilds - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Free_Guilds

The whole conquer/protect the IS thing was predated by the concept that the Clans thought that after Kerensky and co left, the IS would have ripped itself apart and be Mad Max Fury Road writ across a 500 LY bubble. That any forces they faced would be disorganised and weak and that the populace of these worlds would welcome the return of the SLDF as saviors.

Realisitically there's no way the Clans could have gotten as far as they did save author fiat. As you said, there's too many worlds for them to garrison with their limited militaries, and 4 invader Clans, even at full strength must have massed no more than say 1,500 MechWarriors each (at a guess) and even then they didn't use their FULL strength as they had to leave forces in the Homeworlds to stop the other Clans taking their stuff.

And very true re the Caste system, it would depend on who got the prize or if the Clans were flexible enough to adjust to the reality of things they faced. The Jags and Falcons would try and force the Caste system on people and it would just result in never ending resistance them which would beat them because numbers and distance help the rebels. More liberal clans like the Wolves or Bears would adjust their stance and really the Clans would HAVE to adapt, they'd simply not be able to force their way of life on the Inner Sphere, not if they didn't want to face never ending insurgency.

Could they have pulled it off? Yes. Only with Author fiat.

Its my prediction for ilClan.

Clan Wolf gets Terra in a final battle against the Falcons and Republic, the ROTS and Wolves gang up to stop Malvina because she's utterly omnicidal and is the LAST person you want as ilClan.

Stone and Alaric fight a duel, winner takes all. Alaric wins, all ROTS forces in the Sol system are ordered to join the Wolves to ensure that Terra is secure and not overrun by everyone else (Cappies or Combine). ROTS forces outside of the Sol system ignore this and join Davion/Lyran forces.

Having thrown everything at Terra the Falcons are either Annihilated or absorbed by the Horses and Bears as well as the Lyrans who push onto now all but defenceless worlds.

The Wolf Empire moves everything into the Sol system that it can and starts pushing slowly outwards, claiming the old Hegemony worlds IE the Republic.

The surivivng Clans all agree that if the IlClan gets attacked they all jump in against the attacker, and have trade agreements. But that's it. The Wolves don't have the forces to make the other Clans bend the Knee. The Ravens have the Bears and Combine in the way, the Dominion is the largest intact military power in the Inner Sphere and could easily resist. The Sharkfoxes are off doing their own thing and would only care about trade etc. The Horses will probably be too busy grabbing ex Falcon holdings and the like and are still fairly strong. The wolves simply lack the military capacity to force the other Clans to kneel to them. They might, given decades but even then this isn't some 'win condition' that makes the other Clans go "ALL HAIL THE IlCLAN!" and immediatley become part of them as far as we know.

Slowly over decades the Wolves tighten their hold on the Hegemony, and are generally accepted by the populace and keep them happy with bread and circuses that have been mentioned in the TRO's that have come out with their dance of 1.1 billion veils teasing about the IlClan.

But conquer the whole Sphere, save massive authorial fiat, basically impossible.
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Maingunnery

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #2 on: 16 November 2019, 07:35:01 »

A bit understandable, a Clan warrior has a very short career in where they have to win NOW, the future is some other person's problem.   
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Taber_Evans

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #3 on: 16 November 2019, 08:58:29 »
IMO there was no endgame.  Only an illusion.   

JA Baker

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What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #4 on: 16 November 2019, 09:16:23 »
IMO there was no endgame.  Only an illusion.
So the Clans are basically the nuBSG Cylons?
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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #5 on: 16 November 2019, 09:20:35 »
So the Clans are basically the nuBSG Cylons?

Sounds about right.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #6 on: 16 November 2019, 09:37:31 »
I don't think even the most visionary Khan's saw an immediate endgame.  REVIVAL was the race to Earth, upon winning the Clan that did the best was ilClan, they would have Earth and it's industries plus the Free Guilds (maybe) in their corner. 

With that much of a base they could subjugate a large number of worlds eventually building up to a galaxy spanning government like COMSTAR

dgorsman

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #7 on: 16 November 2019, 13:20:30 »
I don't think they intended to rule with their 3050-era toumans.  They would expand to fit the task i.e. defending assets in trials, based on perceived value, available resources, and political relations with other clans.  Look at the Falcons - they blew up in size and engaged in training operations in anticipation of a renewed invasion.
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DOC_Agren

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #8 on: 16 November 2019, 14:31:05 »
Endgame???
This was the Clans who forgot what real war was, what logistics were.

The closest to an Endgame plan was in a year we reclaim Holy Terra, become ilClan and then everything else will fall into place because the warriors say so and the scientists, technicians, merchants, and laborers caste will make it work.
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pixelgeek

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #9 on: 16 November 2019, 15:04:56 »
I thought the entire point was to rebuild the Star League and then use it to open a series of Baskin Robbins franchises across the Inner Sphere.

Ruger

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #10 on: 16 November 2019, 15:31:08 »
I thought the entire point was to rebuild the Star League and then use it to open a series of Baskin Robbins franchises across the Inner Sphere.

You mean Taco Bells. Everyone knows it was the winner and sole survivor of the Franchise Wars.

 ;D

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SteveRestless

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #11 on: 16 November 2019, 15:36:27 »
What was the Star League's ultimate endgame? I don't know that they had one besides maintaining their power and dominance.

Say, for a moment, that I were ilKhan of ilClan Wolf, having just absorbed the battered remains of the Republic.  Personally, my approach would be to start forming a Star League not out of raw conquest, but out of a mix of warfare and diplomacy and diplomacy induced warfare, maybe even some warfare induced diplomacy. After rebuffing the inevitable refusal by the Jade Falcons and seeing Malvina dead, hopefully we would be looking at a wounded Clan Jade Falcon with more to gain by allying with Clan Wolf than opposing it. The Sea Foxes are in a position to profit from participating in our new Star League and are already something of an ally. Three out of Six is a pretty strong position in the joke that is the Council of Six, to whatever extent that still even persists.

Personally I would not expect terribly much out of the Bears, Horses and Ravens other than an acnowledgement that I have in fact fulfilled the conquest of Terra and am as such, due the bragging rights of being the ilClan. They are welcomed to participate in our revival of the Star League, but I want them as allies and willing participants, not sullen vassals. I suspect that should we leave the Bears and Ravens to conduct their business as usual, that they would count themselves in, and the Horses seem like they would not want to exclude themselves from a Third League either.

I would consolidate power in what was Prefecture X, forming something of a Wolf Hegemony, and shrink the borders of the Wolf Empire in the FWL somewhat. I would move some of the manufacturing we established there, to Terra and this Hegemony for better defensibility, and use some of those lost worlds as an enticement package to get the Free Worlds League and Lyrans to sign on with our League. Likewise, with the Combine and Confederation bearing down on the Federated Suns, I would offer them a chance at survival through Membership in our League.

I would direct the Bears and Ravens to pursue gains against the Draconis Combine, for several reasons. First, to make good on the promise to take pressure off of the Federated Suns, but also because in the fall of the original star league, the Combine was one of the petty parties who refused to acknowledge the rightful succession following the fall of the Camerons. For this, we have a score to settle. With the Combine, I would be willing to hear a plea for peace, a pledge to join our Star League, after our pound of flesh has been taken, and our Bears and Ravens sated on dragon meat.

Likewise, the Confederation is an enemy of the Republic, whose surviving members are now a part of our clan. And they too denied the succession orders. And they covet worlds we now control. Unlike the Combine, I am disinclined to accept their surrender. An example needs to be made, a demonstration of the might of our new Star League. On the off chance that the Capellans are willing to play by Clan Rules, and fight honorably, I wil settle for driving them back to their Pre-blackout borders. If they play dirty, however, I will indulge in excess and make the Fourth Succession War look like a fraternity prank.

Once I have the other Clans on board with my League, and have dealt, one way or another, with the Successor States, I would focus on consolidation and innovation. Work on promoting aspects of Clan Culture throughout our League, primarily the practice of conducting warfare through Trials, and encouraging the startup of Warrior breeding programs so that Civilians do not have to suffer the hardship of the life of a Warrior. I would work on boosting the technology levels of everyone in the league, with both the Star League and the Golden Century as inspirations.

Post-consolidation, the Golden Century really would be my template for how things would be, minus the scaricity issues of the Homeworlds. I would rebuild a multinational, multiclan, Star League Defense Force as an enforcement arm and force to defend the league from those without. Be they Periphery faction or holdouts who refused to join the league.

Within the Clans of my League, I would set forth another goal. A Competitive goal, for the five non-wolf Clans of the Star League. Long Ago, our wayward kin in the homeworlds rejected us and drove us from the homeworlds in the wars of reaving.   Rather than forever wonder whether they shall be returning, rather than let them remain some great unknown, we shall return to the Clan Homeworlds. Much as in Operation REVIVAL we shall sortie forth, to reclaim what is rightfully ours. The Clan or Clans who retake Strana Mechty will be venerated within our League, and honored as a peer of the ilClan. But there is no style in reclaiming Strana Mechty first, no First, reclaim your ancestral worlds, and demonstrate the strength of our League to whatever has become of the Clans of the Homeworlds.

Clan Wolf will see to the Inner Sphere, and provide a support force to this expedition, but it will be on the other five clans to do the Retaking. As a Wolf, however, I WOULD remember our ancient bonds to the Coyotes, and offer them a chance to join the League rather than be consumed by it. Offer them Safcon to the Inner Sphere, and a chance to build anew with us. The Escorpion Imperio would not be an explicit target of this expedition, but neither would it be a forbidden target.

Beyond that, I would direct parts of the League to investigate the triple boogeymen of the Word of Blake, any not-eradicated vestiges of the Society and the Not-Named, seeking out the ultimate fate of those factions, ensuring their elimination.

Exploration of the Deep Periphery would be another goal.

If their genetic materials were recovered, I could see birthing new sibkos from Extinct Clans, bringing those clans back to life as provisional members of our new Star League, giving them a chance to bear witness to our glory, and a chance to rebuild themselves. Fallen or not, their roots lead back to the Star League. If they are truly unworthy, then they will not survive. If there is yet value there, they might thrive. Excepting, of course, the Not-Named and technically, the Absorbed clans would be part of the clans that assimilated them.

Canon events may lead another direction, but I think, as laid out above, there is much for an ilClan to busy itsself doing. Everything I laid out above could easily outlast a single ilKhan's lifespan, if not two or three.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

SteveRestless

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #12 on: 16 November 2019, 15:36:57 »
You mean Taco Bells. Everyone knows it was the winner and sole survivor of the Franchise Wars.

 ;D

Ruger

Under the clans, wouldn't it be Taco Zell?  :D
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem

CrossfirePilot

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #13 on: 16 November 2019, 16:03:58 »
I can't help but feel that the Clans long term strategy can be summed up below...

skiltao

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #14 on: 16 November 2019, 16:21:23 »
There's just too many worlds in the Inner Sphere (2,000, according to Sarna.net), with too many people for a comparatively small military to impose their will on. <snip> I don't think any of them understand how an economy works. <snip> The Clans plan on flipping the entire table and dancing a jig on the mess they made.

How would they pull it off?

The Houses aren't that much bigger, and the Clans at least have a war-time economy down pat. You're right that it would be difficult to convert the whole Inner Sphere over to a Clan style economy, but integrating with the Inner Sphere (in any fashion) would be a very long process with ample opportunity to learn and adapt. Clan leaders are more practical and adaptible than your average glory hound.

If you're looking for a specific action plan, I think the canonical interbellum from 3080ish to 3130ish is plausible enough.

This was the Clans who forgot what real war was, what logistics were.
The whole conquer/protect the IS thing was predated by the concept that the Clans thought that after Kerensky and co left, the IS would have ripped itself apart and be Mad Max Fury Road writ across a 500 LY bubble
<snip>
Realisitically there's no way the Clans could have gotten as far as they did save author fiat.

I know people say that, but... the Clan loss at Tukayyid was a failure of caution, not a failure of logistical capacity. The Invasion and Occupation Zones maintained a force approximately half the size of their opposition with a supply line one year long; that's a Star League-tier capability. By comparison, Inner Sphere logistical capabilities were in shreds.

The Clan Homeworlds enjoy a very high saturation of technological infrastructure. The Inner Sphere does not. That lack of infrastructure would probably be one of the biggest limits in trying to force the Inner Sphere into a Clan-style economy.
« Last Edit: 16 November 2019, 16:23:32 by skiltao »
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #15 on: 16 November 2019, 23:00:57 »
There's just too many worlds in the Inner Sphere (2,000, according to Sarna.net), with too many people for a comparatively small military to impose their will on.

This assumes that the size of the ilClan touman will remain static.  Given that the Clans have the ability to artificially produce an arbitrary number of warriors every half-decade, that may not be a good assumption, especially when the resources and industrial capability of Terra are lashed to Clantech.

Quote
forever be running around putting down rebellions and civil insurrection.

This assumes that there will be widespread Spheroid resistance to Clan rule.  Based on a century of experience in the Clan OZs, where there has been a paucity of references to rebellion and insurrection, that may not be a safe assumption.

Quote
I don't think any of them understand how an economy works.

This assumes that the Clans make sweeping changes to the economies of conquered Spheroid planets.  That doesn’t seem to be the case in the OZs.  Keeping to their own enclaves, the Clanners mostly live separate, parallel existences to their Spheroid subjects and don’t appear to interfere much with the existing Spheroid economies.
« Last Edit: 16 November 2019, 23:10:06 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #16 on: 17 November 2019, 20:03:24 »

I know people say that, but... the Clan loss at Tukayyid was a failure of caution, not a failure of logistical capacity.
  Tukayyid was the Clans playing their usual game, against an average force (ComStar) with slightly above-average equipment. I've played out the invasion scenarios using the older rules, where infantry and vehicles were still feeble elements; The current rules give IS forces more teeth, where combined-arms is far more destructive, when the IS players don't feel like playing the Clans' school-yard rules. I've GMed games where my players destroy Clan forces and once they get their hands on Clan equipment and use them the way they are meant to be used, there is no way for the Clans to have gotten so far, considering the Clans have no clue about warfare on the strategic scale.

  When I've fielded Clan forces, I've had to resort to WW2 tactics: Fighter sweeps, artillery prep, infiltration and sabotage, just to even the odds, especially when the IS players realize that the Clan force lacks sufficient Elementals to take and hold urban areas, and the Elementals are targeted for destruction. Having entire stars of omnis walk into VLAW-armed miltia infantry platoon ambushes  and retreat with heavy losses, because I'd run out of Elementals to clear buildings has occurred more than once.

  My players would drop mines behind Clan unit formations in order to prevent them from escaping. Facing Clan forces was no longer a threat, but merely an opportunity to take their stuff.

  The Clans had no endgame because there was never the plan other than the Kerenskys setting up a bandit kingdom, where they didn't have to take orders from people they didn't like. It's obvious that most of the records of the Star League were destroyed, because the Clans had no clue what the real Star League was, even after the invasion, when they could read the truth for themselves in IS records -the truth didn't matter.  Considering the Clans were designed for contention instead of unity, I don't see any Clan faction bowing down to another Clan, save through violence. The capture of Terra could very well spell the end of the Clans.

Jellico

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #17 on: 18 November 2019, 07:01:48 »
  Tukayyid was the Clans playing their usual game, against an average force (ComStar) with slightly above-average equipment. I've played out the invasion scenarios using the older rules, where infantry and vehicles were still feeble elements; The current rules give IS forces more teeth, where combined-arms is far more destructive, when the IS players don't feel like playing the Clans' school-yard rules. I've GMed games where my players destroy Clan forces and once they get their hands on Clan equipment and use them the way they are meant to be used, there is no way for the Clans to have gotten so far, considering the Clans have no clue about warfare on the strategic scale.

  When I've fielded Clan forces, I've had to resort to WW2 tactics: Fighter sweeps, artillery prep, infiltration and sabotage, just to even the odds, especially when the IS players realize that the Clan force lacks sufficient Elementals to take and hold urban areas, and the Elementals are targeted for destruction. Having entire stars of omnis walk into VLAW-armed miltia infantry platoon ambushes  and retreat with heavy losses, because I'd run out of Elementals to clear buildings has occurred more than once.

Frankly I see that as a failure of FASA. They seemed incapable of thinking beyond a Company vs Star with 3025 tech. It is like they couldn't even be bothered counting just how many units were in a regiment.
Worse, when IS players started getting flogged by Clan munchkins they defined and redefined Clan forces as smaller and smaller. You don't even get the fuzzy fleet assets of most Great Houses. Clan numbers are much more defined by 3060 than anything in the Inner Sphere.

I think it is fair to say that the Clans of 1990 had a chance while the Clans of 1997 didn't.

NutritiousSlop

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #18 on: 18 November 2019, 16:57:19 »
I think Operation Revival was based on the assumption that the Inner Sphere was in worse shape than it actually was come 3049;  the Clans heard that the IS was out of 'Mech factories and was fighting on a neo-feudal scale with a few actual MechWarriors but mostly bums and conventional infantry.  They didn't get the bit about the Helm Memory Core or the fact that ComStar had so many wonderful toys they doled out as needed.  My guess is they expected the Invaders to blast to Terra and re-take it rather quickly, then everyone would fall in line behind whoever capture the planet first and things would become extremely awkward for the Free Worlds League. 

Instead, they met stiff opposition from slightly upgraded units and troops willing to die to hold a hill.  Tukayyid was that writ large. 

My prediction is that there's something stirring in the Homeworld Clans- they've had nearly a century to stew.  I'm predicting some sort of invasion by the Homeworlders, largely propelled by the fact that they've reduced the Homeworlds to stripped-out husks and that one big go-for-broke run at becoming the ilClan is their best option.  The Spheroid Clans will naturally oppose this intrusion, but to what extent is up for debate.  There will be some climatic battle  between Spheroid Clans, Homeworld Clans, the Republic, and IS forces (possibly even including some Fidelis and maybe some sort of redeemed or revived Manei Domini), perhaps with some Society/Not-Named meddling.  I think we'll see the Homeworlders delving deeper into biotechnology/transhumanism, given the Manei Domini and the Genecaste.  It'll make the Amaris Civil War look like a playground dust-up, and there will be some serious destruction of core worlds.  The Clans will largely see that they've lost the way of Kerensky, and that pronouncing an ilClan out of the morass of Spheroid-tainted clans and whatever the Homeworlders have turned into would be an affront to society they created, and the concept will be abandoned.  Maybe the Not-Nameds will poke their heads in and try to lay claim to being the ilClan. 

Meanwhile, the Escoprion Imperio will continue to put necrosia in paella and chillax. 

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #19 on: 18 November 2019, 18:20:16 »
Frankly I see that as a failure of FASA.

  I have to agree, in part. The game has evolved, mostly to include the leaps in technology since the game was first released. The game also tried to apply more reality to the combat portion of the game, which has shifted a lot of prominence away from battlemechs. A one time, back in the "Mad Max" 3025 era, a single mech was capable of conquering an entire planet because vehicles and infantry could not resist a battlemech. Currently, a vehicle may lack the mobility of the battlemech, but ton for ton, a vehicle could face a mech, put up a decent fight, and even win. Under ideal conditions, infantry could be very problematic for battlemechs, even enough to deter urban combat in the absence of adequate infantry support. After all, a walking tank is still a tank.

  You could also blame FASA for the Clan dilemma of lacking a long-term purpose.

Von Jankmon

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #20 on: 18 November 2019, 18:28:54 »
The sticking point is not military but cultural.

Terra is the soul of humanity.  Even Amaris was smart enough not to mess with Terra's internal structure.  Now along come the clans.  Say they won at Tukkayid and seized Terra, which they were more than capable of doing if they didn't lowbid against each other and get hidebound over duelling dogmas in what was the largest single battle deployment in mech history.  Even the Falcons knew when to give zellbriggen a rest.
But the clans ate a double helping of stupid pills to help the plot along, though the Ghost Bears and Falcons didn't eat most of theirs and the Wolves got fiat pills instead in a duff batch.  Otherwise they would have trounced the Com Guard and won Terra.

Let us say the most likely result happened and not the result we got.
Terra is won, and lets assume to keep things quick the Wolves get the IlClanship, which isn't all that unlikely.  Its all over job done.  That's it but its the endagame for the clans, not the Inner Sphere.

You see the problem with Clan society is that it is utterly incompatible with Terran society.  Yes Nicholas Kerensky and clan honour are important and historical, but compared to Terran culture and history they are just a footnote.  Now you can march onto [insert planet name] here and tell everyone they have no surname and are not lower castes in clan [insert name here], quite literally as the clan in charge might change.  We can swallow some suspension of disbelief pills and say with works in most places of the Inner Sphere.
But it has a cat in hell's chance of working on Terra.  Now all the clans would have a land share on Terra as they do on Strana Mechty, wikth the lions share going to the ilClan....

So a mighty clan warrior walks onto someones farm in France, tells the farmer that he is now Jaques a worker of clan [insert name here].  However the reply is 'Non'.  He is Jaques Martin, and he is FRENCH, and no matter how much these clanners think the will of Nicholas Kerensky matters, the bottom line is that he is a Martin, and Frenchman and a Terran, like his ancestors since records began before computers were invented.
Now the first Terrans trying this may get beaten up of executed, some might comply.
However the vast cultural weight of Terran history will mean inestimably more than the imposed cobbled together new culture of clan society.
Terra has more languages on it than there are in the rest of human space combined.  More religions more cultures and also is not a single sovereign planet, there are still quasi independent sovereign microstates including the Vatican that even Amaris left alone.  There are minor kingdoms, primitive tribes in protected reservations in remains of rainforests.  and that is just the surface.

Terra has an active Illuminati system, and other satellite secret societies like belters etc, and I don't think they will be happy with any attempt to impose clan society on Terra.

All in all the clans would have to either enforce a cultural eradication of Terra, or be in actuality absorbed by Terran society, with the latter being far more likely.  The clans would end up a set of warrior societies divorced from and ultimately subject to the larger Terran society which absorbs them.

When even the intermediate endgame goal ends in foreign absorbtion there is no ultimate endgame.
« Last Edit: 18 November 2019, 18:32:49 by Von Jankmon »
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #21 on: 18 November 2019, 19:29:04 »
My prediction is that there's something stirring in the Homeworld Clans- they've had nearly a century to stew.  I'm predicting some sort of invasion by the Homeworlders, largely propelled by the fact that they've reduced the Homeworlds to stripped-out husks and that one big go-for-broke run at becoming the ilClan is their best option. 
  The whole of the Clans could reside on a single planet and not even see each other. There are a few million Clanners. Humanity hasn't even come close to depleting Earth's resources and current scientists can't even estimate the amount of fossil fuels that have yet to be tapped.                                                                                                                                                                                             
 The BT universe was written based on the very limited science of the 1970s/80s, when people thought oil would be gone in a few decades.
We know better now, and uninhabited worlds would provide more than enough resources to anyone with the capability of reaching them, so Inner Sphere-like conquest is not about securing raw materials but banditry -robbing people of already finished products, even though maintaining huge standing armies costs more than merely building more factories...but, the game is about war, not reason.

marauder648

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #22 on: 19 November 2019, 05:35:16 »
What we'll probably see is what happened to the Bears, a mingling of IS and Clan culture. If its the Wolves (and I think we can safely guess it is because if Malvina gets in charge then its 'game over man..game over' considering how nutbar she is) get Terra, then they're quite liberal and will probably first try their system but end out working out something that works for them and the Terrans. They've had a century of working with the populations of their OZ and Empire, more than enough time to see what works and what does not.
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NutritiousSlop

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #23 on: 19 November 2019, 09:28:28 »
  The whole of the Clans could reside on a single planet and not even see each other. There are a few million Clanners. Humanity hasn't even come close to depleting Earth's resources and current scientists can't even estimate the amount of fossil fuels that have yet to be tapped.                                                                                                                                                                                             

I'm basing the resource-poor argument on the Wars of Reaving sourcebook.  The Supplement explicitly says the Brian Caches are empty, and part of the impetus for the development of ProtoMechs was reduction of resource burden.  The Clans have essentially been in a war economy since they set foot on the Pentagon worlds.  This isn't helped by the predilection for resolving things through combat between resource-intensive machines.  Imagine if business disputes were resolved through outright but limited war- like Apple and Samsung fielding armies to protect their IP rather than just BigLaw firms.  Look at the experience of the Blood Spirits- they started new colonies because they needed more resources.  The Wars of Reaving sourcebook explicitly mentions Trials of Possession for food- this isn't symptomatic of a society with plenty. 

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #24 on: 19 November 2019, 14:23:03 »
I'm basing the resource-poor argument on the Wars of Reaving sourcebook.  The Supplement explicitly says the Brian Caches are empty, and part of the impetus for the development of ProtoMechs was reduction of resource burden.  The Clans have essentially been in a war economy since they set foot on the Pentagon worlds.  This isn't helped by the predilection for resolving things through combat between resource-intensive machines.  Imagine if business disputes were resolved through outright but limited war- like Apple and Samsung fielding armies to protect their IP rather than just BigLaw firms.  Look at the experience of the Blood Spirits- they started new colonies because they needed more resources.  The Wars of Reaving sourcebook explicitly mentions Trials of Possession for food- this isn't symptomatic of a society with plenty.

  Blame the writers and their lack of adequate research on the workings of the universe. A person who has only visited New York City, Paris or London might assume that Earth is vastly overpopulated, until they visit the Sahara, the Amazon or Antarctica. Only a tiny fraction of Earth's land is settled and I've read that the planet could carry (house and supply) twice to three times the current number of people, despite those who are warning that the sky is falling. Again, the game created the story, so we have to occasionally suspend reality in exchange for entertainment. 

  Oddly enough, despite the commonplace nature of space-faring, the BTU universe still falls short on the Kardashev Scale of a Type I civilization, mostly due to the mysterious shortage of resources in the Terra System, which prompted exploration and settling of other systems without bothering to strip the Terra System of its last asteroid and comet, let alone its many planets and moons.   

  That the Clans would be fighting over food is an indication of incompetent leadership. The "guns or butter" rule applies here, where poor decisions on the allocation of labor result in shortages of necessary resources. BTU economies aren't based on successful models found in reality, they are wholly imaginary, although some economies in real life have also been based on fiction or what I consider "wishful thinking" economies, where a government does something and hopes it works, then blames everything but the program enacted for its failure.

The Clans are a military that formed a country. The problem with that concept is, that military members are usually clueless about economics and production realities, they are just a group of armed employees that depend on other people for weapons, supplies and paychecks, and essentially, they produce nothing of value, so as employees, actually count against productive workers such as farmers and factory personnel. That's just an economic reality. I'd toss in government employees as non-productive, as well.

The above being said, when you have a government led by the toughest schoolyard bullies, don't expect an abundance of competence in management. What I'm trying to do here is to quantify resource shortages in a civilization with near limitless energy sources (fusion) has problems with gathering or even creating resources. Either Clan scientists are still stuck in the 1980s or Kerensky kidnapped the wrong people and forgot several volumes of Star League civil technology. If either is so, the Clans are only picking the lowest hanging fruit and lack the technology to find or recover larger deposits and merely move on after they've reached their technological limitations. Looking Clan society, that scenario is entirely possible.
« Last Edit: 20 November 2019, 00:35:05 by Mohammed As`Zaman Bey »

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #25 on: 19 November 2019, 15:19:28 »

The trail system also punishes weaker Clan for developing resources, thus less economic investment.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #26 on: 19 November 2019, 15:54:47 »
The trail system also punishes weaker Clan for developing resources, thus less economic investment.

This I think is definitely a good point that is true of the Inner Sphere as well. In the Clans the Smoke Jaguars survived by what is effectively piracy against weaker foes, principally the poor Ice Hellions as they stole the Koshi and Hankyo at least from them and likely some Kindraa of the Mandrills.  I think the Smoke Jaguars are why the Cloud Cobras enlisted the Burrocks as bodyguards for their expeditions as well. 

Another example is the Hell's Horses who had a magnificent Mechworks on Tokasha that the Ghost Bears claimed as their own after completion and managed to hold with the megafactory's production.  Without incentive to develop these resources in the form of wealth or status for the Merchant or Scientist Caste and with a powerful disincentive as bigger clans can come and steal everything of course you don't have a functional economy.

This is also true in the Inner Sphere, the Lyrans and Leaguers are the most productive states in the Inner Sphere and were the regular targets of raids by the Combine and Confederation; the least productive states but with slightly better warriors on average which enabled them some success.  Both states also have bad blood with one another but they fight in the Kroner vs Eagle marketplace more than on the ground.

NutritiousSlop

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #27 on: 19 November 2019, 16:03:44 »
Only a tiny fraction of Earth's land is settled and I've read that the planet could carry (house and supply) twice to three times the current number of people, despite those who are warning that the sky is falling. Again, the game created the story, so we have to occasionally suspend reality in exchange for entertainment. 

And some of those lands shouldn't be expected to support human life, not just for sentimental reasons (I wouldn't think it'd be appropriate to build a condo and strip mall over the Gettysburg battlefield).  The lore is pretty explicit that the Pentagon worlds are marginally habitable at best, what with the violent superpredators, brain fevers, bizarre weather patterns, and intense weather.  Plus, the Society was able to have train their armies right under the Clans' collective noses on these planets, using the plentiful and impassable wilderness to do so.  So, while I do agree that the Clans are using less than the full capacity of their planets, the full capacity is not readily or economically obtainable. 

  That the Clans would be fighting over food is an indication of incompetent leadership. The "guns or butter" rule applies here, where poor decisions on the allocation of labor result in shortages of necessary resources. BTU economies aren't based on successful models found in reality, they are wholly imaginary, although some economies in real life have also been based on fiction or what I consider "wishful thinking" economies, where a government does something and hopes it works, then blames everything but the program enacted for its failure.

The Clans are a military that formed a country. The problem with that concept is, that military members are usually clueless about economics and production realities, they are just a group of armed employees that depend on other people for weapons, supplies and paychecks, and essentially, they produce nothing of value, so as employees, actually count against productive workers such as farmers and factory personnel. That's just an economic reality. I'd toss in government employees as non-productive, as well.

The above being said, when you have a government led by the toughest schoolyard bullies, don't expect an abundance of competence in management. What I'm trying to do here is to quantify resource shortages in a civilization with near limitless energy sources (fusion) has problems with gathering or even creating resources. Either Clan scientists are still stuck in the 1980s or Kerensky kidnapped the wrong people and forgot several volumes of Star League civil technology. If either is so, the Clans are only picking the lowest hanging fruit and lack the technology to find or recover larger deposits and merely move on after they've reached their technological limitations. Looking Clan society, that scenario is entirely possible.

I think we're closer on this than either of us realize.  The Clans are simply economically wasteful- they'll spend the limited resources on guns, foregoing butter and any butter-related technologies such as butter knives, dishes, and refrigeration.  And the leadership, steeped in their martial traditions and wrapped up in the "might makes right" ideals of Trials, would dictate that mis-allocation.  They'd back up that logic that if it can't be produced and other Clans won't trade it, it can be won in Trials, but then would pull that back by arguing that scarce military resources are more needed to win more military resources rather than a refrigerator factory.  Dan Carlin talks about this in his Hardcore History podcasts related to World War I- the major powers were all in expansion mode, and in order to maintain their economies, they had to continuously expand, which became a problem when they started competing militarily for unclaimed possessions.

Implicit in all this me trying to apply logic to a fictional warrior-society built around the "Rule of Cool" by some guys who came up with this whole thing over pretzels and beer.   :D

But, to bring this full circle back to the Clans having an endgame for Terra, I think this discussion of the mismatched and wasteful economy they've got is indicative of an idealism that borders on arrogance.  One commenter already described how a Frenchman might recoil at suddenly being informed he is now a lower-caste laborer with new last name, which led me to think about the jockeying that would occur among civilians to be slotted into a higher caste.  Is a cable installer or electrician a Laborer or Technician?  Where would a lawyer fit, assuming that there would be need for one?  A Clan takeover of Terra would essentially be a wholesale upset of an economic and social structure that's been in place for 3000 years.  What it really comes down to is that the Clans had an endgame for Terra in the same sense that a dog has an endgame when it chases a car.

Then again, maybe the Clans were going to turn Terra into one of those living history places where someone sits around and tells you about how to churn butter and weave sweaters all day.   

SteveRestless

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Re: What was the Clans ultimate endgame?
« Reply #28 on: 19 November 2019, 19:57:39 »
which led me to think about the jockeying that would occur among civilians to be slotted into a higher caste.  Is a cable installer or electrician a Laborer or Technician?

Both are technical fields requiring more brainpower than muscle, Technician.

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Where would a lawyer fit, assuming that there would be need for one?

Obsoleted by Warrior Caste. You see Warrior Caste members occupying lawyer-y positions for other warriors in the fiction though.

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A Clan takeover of Terra would essentially be a wholesale upset of an economic and social structure that's been in place for 3000 years. 

Or they do like the Wolves and Bears currently do already and largely leave the civilian side of business alone, taking control over the military-relevant industries and letting people who don't connect to fighting more or less alone.  Earth becomes the new Strana Mechty.
Шонхорын хурдаар хурцлан давшъя, Чонын зоригоор асан дүрэлзэье, Тэнхээт морьдын туурайгаар нүргэе, Тамгат Чингисийн ухаанаар даръя | Let’s go faster than a falcon, Let’s burn with the wolf’s courage, Let’s roar with the hooves of strong horses, Let’s go with the wisdom of Tamgat Genghis - The Hu, Wolf Totem