Author Topic: Flipping arms doesn't count as rear firing?  (Read 5157 times)

House Davie Merc

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Flipping arms doesn't count as rear firing?
« on: 02 February 2024, 10:56:35 »
I somehow wound up looking at units with rear firing weapons and I realized that I can't find
anything about mechs with flipping arms.

That's kind of the purpose for this type of mech.

Is there something in advanced rules for this or is there any plan to review it?
« Last Edit: 06 March 2024, 22:17:08 by House Davie Merc »

MarauderD

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Re: Flipping arms don't count as rear firing?
« Reply #1 on: 02 February 2024, 13:09:08 »
The thing you hear a lot around these parts is that AS is an abstraction of classic Battletech.  I would be shocked if there was any plan to review arm flipping.  Slippery slope and all that.

BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Flipping arms don't count as rear firing?
« Reply #2 on: 08 February 2024, 06:48:26 »
I don't mind the lack of arm flipping since it gives 'mechs with rear weapons something of a special ability.  It's a game that's made 'mechs like the Dragon 1N and Shadowhawk 2H more relevant on the board, after all =)

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theagent

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Re: Flipping arms don't count as rear firing?
« Reply #3 on: 08 February 2024, 22:25:40 »
I don't mind the lack of arm flipping since it gives 'mechs with rear weapons something of a special ability.  It's a game that's made 'mechs like the Dragon 1N and Shadowhawk 2H more relevant on the board, after all =)

That would be about the only way that I would consider incorporating "arm flipping" into AS...but I don't remember if the "REAR" ability lets you fire in addition to making a forward attack or not.  If it's a separate attack, then I don't think you could incorporate it without adding a new ability.

Charistoph

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Re: Flipping arms don't count as rear firing?
« Reply #4 on: 08 February 2024, 22:36:45 »
That would be about the only way that I would consider incorporating "arm flipping" into AS...but I don't remember if the "REAR" ability lets you fire in addition to making a forward attack or not.  If it's a separate attack, then I don't think you could incorporate it without adding a new ability.

Hmm, let's see.

Quote from: Commander's Edition
Combining Forward (or Turret) and Rearward Attacks: A
unit attempting a REAR attack may still deliver normal forwardfiring
attacks in the same turn, but its ability to do so is reduced. To
reflect this, if a unit makes an attack using the REAR special ability,
for every point of REAR damage it can inflict, its forward-arc (or
turret-based) damage for that turn must be reduced by the same
amount. This damage reduction is applied before the use of any
additional damage made possible by overheating.

So, it does drop it down, probably to account for the Heat of the Weaponry.

Honestly, if anything, it would probably be better set up as a Turret#/#/# ability.
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theagent

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Re: Flipping arms don't count as rear firing?
« Reply #5 on: 09 February 2024, 09:16:19 »
Hmm, let's see.

So, it does drop it down, probably to account for the Heat of the Weaponry.

Honestly, if anything, it would probably be better set up as a Turret#/#/# ability.

Do the TURRET or REAR abilities add anything to a unit's PV?  I'm thinking whichever one doesn't boost PV is probably the better choice...because even though being able to flip arms is a good thing, having someone behind you (where they're doing extra damage) is a Very Bad Thing.

Lanceman

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Re: Flipping arms don't count as rear firing?
« Reply #6 on: 09 February 2024, 09:54:00 »
Do the TURRET or REAR abilities add anything to a unit's PV?  I'm thinking whichever one doesn't boost PV is probably the better choice...because even though being able to flip arms is a good thing, having someone behind you (where they're doing extra damage) is a Very Bad Thing.

Abilities are derived from unit stats, so they are already baked into the PV.
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Charistoph

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Re: Flipping arms don't count as rear firing?
« Reply #7 on: 09 February 2024, 10:32:26 »
Do the TURRET or REAR abilities add anything to a unit's PV?  I'm thinking whichever one doesn't boost PV is probably the better choice...because even though being able to flip arms is a good thing, having someone behind you (where they're doing extra damage) is a Very Bad Thing.

Honestly, I don't know.  It should, honestly.  I don't have the Companion which details how PV is calculated.  I suppose I could run a tank in the latest MML and test it out.

Quick boot up and took a Patton which starts at 28 PV, and moved its AC and LRM to the Front run, and its PV stayed the same.  That could be a missing conversion point in MML, or something that just isn't covered in the Companion.
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theagent

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Re: Flipping arms don't count as rear firing?
« Reply #8 on: 09 February 2024, 22:22:38 »
Honestly, I don't know.  It should, honestly.  I don't have the Companion which details how PV is calculated.  I suppose I could run a tank in the latest MML and test it out.

Quick boot up and took a Patton which starts at 28 PV, and moved its AC and LRM to the Front run, and its PV stayed the same.  That could be a missing conversion point in MML, or something that just isn't covered in the Companion.

Just checked, & neither trait gives a boost to PV.  Probably because TUR just means that some of your preexisting weapon damage is located in the turret & can be fired outside of the normal arc (but reduces any standard damage you do), so the damage has already been calculated.  For REAR, although the damage isn't included in the PV calculation or the regular damage, I'm guessing that the +1 penalty to fire to the rear is maybe the justification for not including it in the PV calculations.  Not to mention that I'm guessing that, since you have to have them directly behind you to use it, adding the extra 1-3 PV points for the ability (as I would imagine most of them are either REAR1 or REAR1/1) might not actually correspond to an actual increase in effectiveness on the playing area.

Still kind of torn about whether to include it, but I suppose you could call it a special-case version of REAR#/#/#, where you'd have to also track the additional specials of any arm-mounted weaponry specifically (just like what's done for TUR).  You'd still have the +1 penalty, & you could only use it against attackers whose damage is going to hit the rear hexside of your mini, but it would add a little something extra to the game...

Zematus737

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Re: Flipping arms doesn't count as rear firing?
« Reply #9 on: 04 June 2024, 12:56:06 »
Any rear firing weapons that don't qualify for enough damage in conversions can sometimes make up for that with increased OV ratings, as that damage and heat is not being considered in the final conversion.  That being said, and as someone else has also mentioned, getting double damage in the back is enough to discourage any advantage arm flipping could give you, imo.  And a lot of rear firing weapons that meat the damage thresholds that quality for conversion are including those found in the torso.

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Re: Flipping arms doesn't count as rear firing?
« Reply #10 on: 04 June 2024, 14:21:13 »
Flipping Arms in TW is balanced "In Theory" by the lack of Punching Ability.

I don't believe there is anything that reduces or changes PV based on Hand/LA Actuators is there?

Physical Damage is purely based on Size Category right?

So denying the Flip ability in AS seems balanced to me.
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Zematus737

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Re: Flipping arms doesn't count as rear firing?
« Reply #11 on: 04 June 2024, 16:07:50 »
Flipping Arms in TW is balanced "In Theory" by the lack of Punching Ability.

I don't believe there is anything that reduces or changes PV based on Hand/LA Actuators is there?

Physical Damage is purely based on Size Category right?

So denying the Flip ability in AS seems balanced to me.

Actuators play no part in conversions.  It's mostly armor factor, speed, damage and range (with medium range damage being doubled in points when it is present).  Size of the units is what is accounted for when making physical attacks in Battleforce and I assume it is the same in AS if physical attacks are permitted.  The cards do show melee special abilities on them for weapon attack bonus damage.  If you have torso weapons in the unit in question, you would have to recalculate what the damage would be with only the arm weapons that could qualify for the arms flipping damage.  All in all, I think the exclusion of the entire mechanic was just a QoL deletion so as to not have to worry about that in conversions.

Charistoph

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Re: Flipping arms doesn't count as rear firing?
« Reply #12 on: 04 June 2024, 22:49:15 »
Physical Damage is purely based on Size Category right?

MEL and TSM Specials affect Physical Damage, as do a few SPAs, but all positively.

However, nothing negatively.
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Re: Flipping arms doesn't count as rear firing?
« Reply #13 on: 07 June 2024, 18:17:25 »
IINM, in lore, isn't flipping the arms meant to be difficult to pull off (in the Warrior series, that is how Justin figured out that Gray Noton was the one who maimed him and killed his training cadre, implying it was so tough to do accurately that it could be used as a "fingerprint" of sorts)? Maybe that's why it isn't mirrored in the rules, since it was meant to be something that most MechWarriors just wouldn't/couldn't do (especially since there are only a few designs that can in lore actually do it) it just wasn't worth the word-count to replicate in the abstracted Alpha Strike rules?

Charistoph

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Re: Flipping arms doesn't count as rear firing?
« Reply #14 on: 09 June 2024, 00:38:11 »
Back in days of yore it was considered an optional rule, much like four-legged 'Mechs, and it was during that time that the Warrior Trilogy was written.

It's been part of the standard rules since Total Warfare, and is even in the rules for A Game of Armored Combat now.
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Inxentas

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Re: Flipping arms doesn't count as rear firing?
« Reply #15 on: 13 June 2024, 09:20:05 »
IINM, in lore, isn't flipping the arms meant to be difficult to pull off (in the Warrior series, that is how Justin figured out that Gray Noton was the one who maimed him and killed his training cadre, implying it was so tough to do accurately that it could be used as a "fingerprint" of sorts)? Maybe that's why it isn't mirrored in the rules, since it was meant to be something that most MechWarriors just wouldn't/couldn't do (especially since there are only a few designs that can in lore actually do it) it just wasn't worth the word-count to replicate in the abstracted Alpha Strike rules?

In the Advanced classic rules, a succesful Piloting check is required when you want to flip arms and torso-twist at the same time. When failed, the second move doesn't happen. I believe this is how the difficulty is translated into gameplay. AS indeed abstracts both of these factors by simply having a more lenient front arc for every unit.

Weirdguy

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Re: Flipping arms doesn't count as rear firing?
« Reply #16 on: 23 October 2024, 08:12:10 »
It was probably not done to keep things simple.

After all, a Rifleman has autocannon-5’s and large lasers that can flip, but two medium lasers that don’t. 

Now, calculating that twice to get the
 stats for firing all that rearward is one thing.  You would create a new Special Ability, and then list the three damage stats all down in the box at the bottom of the card.  But, then what is your forward firepower?  You would need to list those numbers as well.

Suddenly, this is starting to make a stat card look wonky and complex

I think the discussion at the table ended with the feeling that flipping arms is more trouble than it’s worth, so Alpha Strike doesn’t have that ability.  It’s not because the mechs suddenly can’t do that anymore, but because the game is meant to be quick and simple, so it got axed.

Zematus737

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Re: Flipping arms doesn't count as rear firing?
« Reply #17 on: 23 October 2024, 11:36:11 »

Now, calculating that twice to get the
 stats for firing all that rearward is one thing.  You would create a new Special Ability, and then list the three damage stats all down in the box at the bottom of the card.  But, then what is your forward firepower?  You would need to list those numbers as well.

I agree.  It would appear as a Rear firing ability (page 149 in IO:BF) as R#/#/#/#.  As with all damage, the abilities all are included with normal damage and any primary forward arc attack must be reduced by the amount of damage for the rear attack.  But as I mentioned before, actuators were never considered in most of the Rear firing abilities during conversions which had to do with fixed rear firing weapons mostly.  That doesn't mean you can't apply it yourself if you insist on including it for the specific mech that has arm flipping in Core.