Author Topic: Why is the Vulture comparatively rare in the Inner Sphere (Mad Dog)?  (Read 1021 times)

CarcosanDawn

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I am curious if there is some in-universe trait about the Vulture that I have missed that makes it so much less available to various Inner Sphere factions than even rare 'Mechs like the Daishi (which is IS General on the MUL during the Jihad). The Vulture is only available to the DCMS in the MUL, implying it is less widespread in the immediate Post Clan Invasion eras.

Was it just that easy to destroy? Did the DCMS make a point of buying most examples (as far as Inner Sphere factions go)?

Emphasis that I'm talking about the first Vulture (Mk. I), not the Mk. III or IV.
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nckestrel

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Re: Why is the Vulture comparatively rare in the Inner Sphere (Mad Dog)?
« Reply #1 on: 27 December 2024, 22:02:40 »
The MUL doesn't do rarity.  And in general, doesn't do salvage.  The clan units that are available to the Inner Sphere as salvage are a compromise between not doing salvage and Inner Sphere forces often having 10%-15% clan tech (according to sources such as Field Manual Updates) after the destruction of the Smoke Jaguar.

The sample Clan tech units are just a sample, and not canon (that they are found and others are not).

CarcosanDawn

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Re: Why is the Vulture comparatively rare in the Inner Sphere (Mad Dog)?
« Reply #2 on: 27 December 2024, 22:15:51 »
The MUL doesn't do rarity.  And in general, doesn't do salvage.  The clan units that are available to the Inner Sphere as salvage are a compromise between not doing salvage and Inner Sphere forces often having 10%-15% clan tech (according to sources such as Field Manual Updates) after the destruction of the Smoke Jaguar.

The sample Clan tech units are just a sample, and not canon (that they are found and others are not).

Oh! I see, interesting. I'd always taken the MUL to be the governor of canon as far as faction access to 'Mechs. Are there guidelines for how to read the MUL for canonicity/force-goodness in general?

For example, if the Lyrans want to take a Vulture, that's presumably allowed (since it's pretty common during the time of the invasion) but if they wanted to take an Osteon, that's much less likely to be the case (given the timeframe and whatnot). Is there a MUL-facing way to determine that distinction, or is it a matter of tracking down a 'Mech's heritage to figure out a 'faction-specific' force?

I know there's not really "rules" defining faction-specific forces outside of the Force Manuals, hence why this is in "ask the writers". If there's no MUL-facing way, that's totally understandable; the MUL already does phenomenal work!
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nckestrel

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Re: Why is the Vulture comparatively rare in the Inner Sphere (Mad Dog)?
« Reply #3 on: 27 December 2024, 22:27:26 »
Canon doesn't define how many units any faction has. It's intentionally nebulous.

How to use the MUL, if you use the MUL at all, is up to you.  If the group says "100% MUL" and you want to take a Vulture and MUL says your faction doesn't have it, that's the rules for your group and you don't get a Vulture.  If the group says screw the MUL, take what you want, that's the rule for your group. Take your Vulture. Or anywhere in between. (Or use non-MUL availability: use RATs, use Spotlight On defined forces, the Force Manual availability, etc).

Rules and canon are separate. Machine guns don't canonically miss because a target is exactly 91 meters away.  Game rules say it does.  Faction availability is the same. Canon is too nebulous for a rule.  Any faction availability rules are not canon defining.


CarcosanDawn

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Re: Why is the Vulture comparatively rare in the Inner Sphere (Mad Dog)?
« Reply #4 on: 27 December 2024, 22:42:59 »
Canon doesn't define how many units any faction has. It's intentionally nebulous.

How to use the MUL, if you use the MUL at all, is up to you.  If the group says "100% MUL" and you want to take a Vulture and MUL says your faction doesn't have it, that's the rules for your group and you don't get a Vulture.  If the group says screw the MUL, take what you want, that's the rule for your group. Take your Vulture. Or anywhere in between. (Or use non-MUL availability: use RATs, use Spotlight On defined forces, the Force Manual availability, etc).

Rules and canon are separate. Machine guns don't canonically miss because a target is exactly 91 meters away.  Game rules say it does.  Faction availability is the same. Canon is too nebulous for a rule.  Any faction availability rules are not canon defining.

Alright; I see! So the MUL's faction availability isn't fulsome canon, but serves as a guideline or indicator that can be accepted or rejected or adjudicated by the play group. If we want true "canonicity" of what a force "actually has" then it's best to use a Force Manual, RAT series, or Spotlight On or something like that; that's my readback (and makes sense!). Thanks again for the replies! Sorry if I'm a stickler, my narrative brain (and therefore rules/gameplay brain) is itchy tonight for some reason.
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nckestrel

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Re: Why is the Vulture comparatively rare in the Inner Sphere (Mad Dog)?
« Reply #5 on: 27 December 2024, 22:55:25 »
The exact same explanation for the MUL also applies to any faction availability rules: RAT, Force Manual or otherwise.
Faction availability down to individual units existing or not existing in a faction doesn't exist. Canon isn't defined to the level.

CarcosanDawn

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Re: Why is the Vulture comparatively rare in the Inner Sphere (Mad Dog)?
« Reply #6 on: 27 December 2024, 23:10:51 »
The exact same explanation for the MUL also applies to any faction availability rules: RAT, Force Manual or otherwise.
Faction availability down to individual units existing or not existing in a faction doesn't exist. Canon isn't defined to the level.

Well, I did know that - individual units (in the sense of any single Vulture, manufacture number 601 or whatever) - aren't specified. If you meant individual unit types (as I might say it as a player, hah - like the hundred-odd Soarece tanks you know I think too much about) aren't specified either, that's the part that's news to me!

I always took the MUL as being "there are more than a few examples of this unit in these factions" - with a faction's absence being "there are only a few examples of this unit in the other factions, if any". But that still would make the Vulture rarer than the Daishi (where every Inner Sphere faction has "more than a few examples"), hence my question.
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