Author Topic: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?  (Read 3765 times)

CloaknDagger

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Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« on: 24 January 2025, 00:28:41 »
Clan pulse lasers are cool. They're one of the best weapons in the game because they mix accuracy with good range and power.

Inner Sphere pulse lasers still have good power and the accuracy boost, but get the range cut in half.

Except, do they really have the accuracy?

Lower range just means they're hitting with a range bracket worse than they otherwise would. A Large Laser and Large Pulse Laser shooting the same target at 14 hexes would see them both having +4 to hit, the Large Laser for Long Range, and the Large Pulse Laser for Extreme Range minus two. The Large Laser will deal double the damage of the Large Pulse because the Pulse is at extreme range and only hits for 4 damage. Medium lasers are in a similar situation at 8 hexes.

But, of course, pulse lasers are for closer ranges you say. Except while that fixes the damage problem, the regular lasers are STILL a range band better. So the Large and Medium laser medium range of 10 and 6 hexes are getting the same modifiers of the pulse laser long ranges of 10 and 6 hexes. Heck, if you're using the energy weapon variable damage rule, the pulses lose even their +1 damage at long range, being knocked down to the same damage as regular lasers.

So that only leaves only point blank range as a spot where IS Pulse Lasers actually have an advantage. Well, at least below 4 and 5 hexes for the Large and 3 hexes for the Medium, since those STILL overlap with the standard versions.

Only at a tiny 3 and 2 hex range do the Large and Medium Pulse lasers actually have an accuracy advantage over their standard counterparts, which is pretty dire considering their massively higher weight and heat cost.

Then you remember that Variable Speed Pulse Lasers and Snub-Nose PPCs exist and wonder why you would ever use an IS Pulse Laser at all under any circumstances, since both of those perform dramatically better at the exact same range bands IS Pulse Lasers are supposed to.

Am I missing something here or am I beating a dead horse like the AC5 argument?

Catfur

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #1 on: 24 January 2025, 01:31:52 »
Yes.

Having gotten the answer around, let's get around to why. Lots of mechs can force the range, to where the VERY cheap (BV) IS pulse lasers become very potent. Mechs like the GHR-6K or NDA-2KO can chase down (with speed for the No-Dachi, and JJs for the Grasshopper) similar spec'd mechs and then give them hell. Each costs around 1700BV, so very not-so-expensive.

They are also efficient backup weapons, for a mech like the Cerberus or Gunslinger, it wants to stay at range pounding with its Gauss rifles, but Fire Moth H's and P's exist, and some rear facing pulse lasers can put the fear of dezgra into them. Basically for backup weapons you already know they enemy will be forcing the range on you, so the range disadvantage can be discounted.

Fat Guy

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #2 on: 24 January 2025, 05:12:59 »
Never encountered a TR1 Wraith I take it?
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DaevaHuG0

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #3 on: 24 January 2025, 05:14:06 »
If you can dictate the range, then they're even better than clan pulse lasers when using BV. Keeping in mind the smaller range bands don't matter as long as you can keep the enemy in your short range band.

Sabelkatten

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #4 on: 24 January 2025, 07:44:52 »
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Psycho

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #5 on: 24 January 2025, 10:57:10 »
You can also look at it as an effective range versus total range thing. Sure, the standard lasers reach farther, but how often are you hitting at long with that +4 mod? Not much unless the dice really favour you, or there's very little else to impede your shot (movement, woods, blocking terrain). Far more shots will be landing at the medium bracket, which coincidentally enough, lines up with the pulse's long range... with a -2 mod. Makes it a wash at that point, and favours the pulse as the range works in.

MarauderD

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #6 on: 24 January 2025, 11:35:02 »
Never encountered a TR1 Wraith I take it?

The Wraith and to a lesser extent the Phoenix Hawk 3PL can be a brutal introduction to Inner Sphere pulse lasers.  If you don't have pulses or a TC yourself, you are going to have a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #7 on: 24 January 2025, 11:37:45 »
And small pulse lasers are far more effective against infantry than the regular small laser.
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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #8 on: 24 January 2025, 12:29:08 »
Two words: kick repellant.


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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #9 on: 24 January 2025, 12:35:20 »
And small pulse lasers are far more effective against infantry than the regular small laser.

This one right here.

I'll agree that the large pulse is a bit big for what you get out of it, and the medium, while it can be handy... there's few situations where I'd take one over a pair of regular medium lasers, honestly. But the small pulse laser is THE tool for telling a rowdy sports crowd to disperse (or I guess actual combat roles, it probably works for that too, I guess).
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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #10 on: 24 January 2025, 12:37:10 »
The Wraith and to a lesser extent the Phoenix Hawk 3PL can be a brutal introduction to Inner Sphere pulse lasers.  If you don't have pulses or a TC yourself, you are going to have a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.

And the Nightsky.
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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #11 on: 24 January 2025, 13:17:02 »
Inner Sphere pulse lasers are cheap on their own and being heavy means they keep the rest of your 'Mech cheap, too.  You can build incorrectly with them but they absolutely have a point.
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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #12 on: 24 January 2025, 13:24:21 »
I think they serve a purpose. But in general they are not the worst weapon but down there.
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Apocal

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #13 on: 24 January 2025, 13:48:16 »
You can also look at it as an effective range versus total range thing. Sure, the standard lasers reach farther, but how often are you hitting at long with that +4 mod? Not much unless the dice really favour you, or there's very little else to impede your shot (movement, woods, blocking terrain). Far more shots will be landing at the medium bracket, which coincidentally enough, lines up with the pulse's long range... with a -2 mod. Makes it a wash at that point, and favours the pulse as the range works in.

OP already mentioned this aspect of "effective" range. It being a wash would make more sense if these were otherwise equal weapons, but they aren't. Pulses are heavier.

At 3 and 4 hexes, an MPL hits with the same TNs as an ERML, since the ERML is still at short range but the MPL is at medium for a +2 that offsets its advantage. At 5 and 6 hexes, the ERML is at medium but the MPL is at long range, again offsetting its advantage. The same exists for the LPL in comparison the ERLL, except that more egregiously since it is a weapon far too heavy to be a secondary battery.

As for hitting at long range, it happens often enough to be going for. A three gunnery pilot in the cockpit works wonders at times and sometimes you just get plain lucky. That can't happen when your weapons are already beyond their maximum range though.

Am I missing something here or am I beating a dead horse like the AC5 argument?

You're not missing anything. It is a known "bug" in the game, especially with the LPL, which competes not just with the LL/ERLL but PPC and ER PPC as well. Later eras tried to patch it over with VSPs and X-Pulse Lasers. Up to you if you feel like those weapons are worth it, because both types are generally worse than Clan Pulses just not so much as the original IS Pulses.
« Last Edit: 24 January 2025, 13:56:53 by Apocal »

wundergoat

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #14 on: 24 January 2025, 17:16:04 »
The IS MPL and LPL both trade the long range bracket of the basic lasers for a -2 mod on half the remaining range, split ~2:1 short:medium.  IMO this is well worth it since long range is so much less impactful than short or even medium range.  Essentially for the ranges standard lasers are good, pulses are usually better, even on a ton for ton basis, except for some small gaps.  If a regular laser hits on 8s and you have a -2 advantage, the pulse is better.  This then rolls into relative heat efficiency that further improves their relative performance.

Relative heat efficiency helps in the comparison to ER lasers.  When boated, MPLs compete very well with ERMLs, being roughly equivalent at ranges 3-6 and overwhelmingly better at 1-2.  The ERMLs of course win out on 7-8 and 9-12, but those ranges are not a ‘sweet spot’.  It takes multiple rounds at those ranges to overcome the advantage MPLs get in just one round.  ERLL vs LPL, the LPL is roughly equal to the ER from 4-10 hexes and MUCH better at 1-3.

I do admit I am biased towards closer range brackets.  The way I figure it, long range fire is aspirational, medium range is effective, and short range is decisive.  I see IS pulses are trading away aspirational fire for a boost in decisive power.

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #15 on: 24 January 2025, 21:00:37 »
If you want to know how effective Inner Sphere pulse lasers are, I suggest you start playing on more built-up maps, with fast jumpers, or both. Even with improved gunnery skill, the difference a -2 to hit makes at range 1-2 is worth it, and if the terrain blocks LOS, it doesn't matter how much range you are potentially losing - at 2 hexes the IS Large Pulse Laser outperforms PPCs.

House Davie Merc

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #16 on: 25 January 2025, 00:07:16 »
If you aren't using Battle Value to balance forces then there isn't a real advantage of the I/S
pulse lasers versus their clan counterparts.
Once you factor in BV and put those I/S pulse lasers on the right units you start to see that
when you can force the engagement to happen up close the equation changes.
At in your face ranges a -2 is a -2.

DevianID

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #17 on: 25 January 2025, 05:28:55 »
So, the thing thats missing from the OP question is that -2 at short range is worth so much more then total range.  Kiting/staying at long range isnt a thing in gameplay forever... limited maps, LOS blocking terrain, and long range mods versus TMM make it so in a 15 turn game, kiting only hits a few times before an enemy closes into range.  And at point blank range, those -2s can overturn many turns of longer range weapons in just a few turns.

Everything is an equation right?  So if you are slow, and you dont have jump jets or longer range guns, yeah a range 6 gun is gonna be worse when working out how good the pulse laser is versus longer range weapons.  But like, the longbow with LRMs and backup pulses is downright deadly to units that close under the minimum range, discouraging close combat in a way no other weapon would.  On a wraith, the ER PPC wraith is way worse then the Large Pulse laser wraith.  Because while the wraith with ER PPC can kite really well, it just doesnt convert damage like a Large Pulse does cause the Wraith's mobility lets it get close while still being hard to hit.

Failninja

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #18 on: 26 January 2025, 01:47:28 »
I always felt they should do extra damage to infantry units because its multiple pulses hitting into a squad.

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #19 on: 26 January 2025, 03:02:52 »
They do.  Aside from the fact that the Small Pulse Laser has the same anti-infantry capability as a machine gun, pulse lasers in general do more damage vs conventional infantry than a standard laser of the same base damage would.  Not that it really makes a big difference.
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Apocal

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #20 on: 26 January 2025, 07:20:28 »
If you want to know how effective Inner Sphere pulse lasers are, I suggest you start playing on more built-up maps, with fast jumpers, or both. Even with improved gunnery skill, the difference a -2 to hit makes at range 1-2 is worth it, and if the terrain blocks LOS, it doesn't matter how much range you are potentially losing - at 2 hexes the IS Large Pulse Laser outperforms PPCs.

If anything, this makes them sound less effective than they actually are.

When you start having to pigeonhole a weapon into a particular type of map and/or against a particular type of enemy for it to show its value, that opens the door to people comparing other weapons on those same merits. For every map that's built-up enough to anticipate 1 hex engagements on the regular, there are three or four, or more, that are relatively open with lines of sight that reach 12 hexes.

But beyond that, against a fast jumper straight-up more rolls is generally better, even against pulse's -2 to-hit.

If you're at 1-hex against a jumper, let's say you're hitting on 10 (4 gunnery, 2 for attacker movement, 4 TMM), a pulse hits on 8, great. But what about two ERMLs? On 10s, they have a ~16% chance to hit at least once. Better than the pulse rolling on 8 (~14%), plus the chance for both to land. Not a great chance, mind you, but it exists. How about two 11s vs one 9? Pulse barely edges ahead, 10.8% vs. 11.1%.

The case where pulse weapons at 1 hex range outdo simply having more rolls is a situation where someone can keep their TN at 12 or higher consistently. In which case get a new opponent because it is a busted way of playing BT (fast jumpers pushing TNs higher than their opponent can handle) and has been known for at least as long as I've been playing MegaMek (like 2005).


Fortunately, they have other benefits, like being compact in an era where crit slots are limited, lower heat and higher damage than their ER equivalents for mediums and larges, being a legitimately good pick for anti-infantry work with SPLs on their own merits.
« Last Edit: 27 January 2025, 15:44:45 by Apocal »

klarg1

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #21 on: 26 January 2025, 12:29:48 »
I think the IS large pulse laser took a bit of a hit to its assigned niche when the snub-nose PPC was introduced, but it still has value on both sides of the fast jumper knife fight equation. (Defense or offense) the medium and small pulses still shine as part of a cheap secondary battery.

Syzyx

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #22 on: 26 January 2025, 13:11:51 »
.
But beyond that, against a fast jumper straight-up more rolls is generally better, even against pulse's -2 to-hit.

If you're at 1-hex against a jumper, let's say you're hitting on 10 (4 gunnery, 2 for attacker movement, 4 TMM), a pulse hits on 8, great. But what about two ERMLs? On 10s, they have a ~16% chance to hit at least once. Better than the pulse rolling on 8 (~14%), plus the chance for both to land. Not a great chance, mind you, but it exists. How about two 11s vs one 9? Pulse barely edges ahead, 10.8% vs. 11.1%.cxs

You may want to revisit your numbers here. The chance of rolling 8 or higher on 2d6 is just shy of 42%, not 14%. That is dramatically better than the ~23% chance of getting a 10+ on two rolls. I think you may have been calculating off the chance of rolling an 8 exactly.
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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #23 on: 26 January 2025, 14:35:18 »
Also two Medium Lasers is 92 BV and one Medium Pulse Laser is 48 BV.  The faster you go the higher the offensive speed modifier gets, so the MPL can end up being ~75 BV cheaper on the kind of thing you want to have an MPL in the first place.  That's not a small discount.
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DevianID

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #24 on: 26 January 2025, 20:22:17 »
You may want to revisit your numbers here. The chance of rolling 8 or higher on 2d6 is just shy of 42%, not 14%. That is dramatically better than the ~23% chance of getting a 10+ on two rolls. I think you may have been calculating off the chance of rolling an 8 exactly.
This exactly.  1 '8' is 15/36, while 2 '10s' is 12/36 added together.  So 1 '8' from a single 2 ton pulse laser is more then 2x as good (more then 2x the damage with a 6 damage pulse versus 10 damage in medium lasers) as 2 medium lasers... while also being less heat then 2 medium lasers.

The medium lasers are better damage then a pulse when the pulse hits on 5s and the medium lasers hit on 7s.  But if your pulse hits on a 6, and 2 mediums hit on 8s, the mediums are worse then pulses.  So, across a game, how many times are the mediums hitting on 8s or above?  In my experience, its 'most of the game' meds are at 8+, so most of the game Id rather have pulse lasers.

EDIT: you start seeing division when you add in elite pilot skills or special pilot abilities.  So like, if you have sniper, or a base 0 legendary warrior, it really skews to range > pulse.  So its not like pulse is ALWAYS the right choice, but usually in pickup games where the baseline is 4/5 skilled warriors without any quirks or campaign operations things, pulse is the right choice cause of how valuable getting below the 8+ is on the 2d6 to-hit bell curve.
« Last Edit: 26 January 2025, 20:26:48 by DevianID »

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #25 on: 26 January 2025, 23:16:26 »
If you want to know how effective Inner Sphere pulse lasers are, I suggest you start playing on more built-up maps, with fast jumpers, or both. Even with improved gunnery skill, the difference a -2 to hit makes at range 1-2 is worth it, and if the terrain blocks LOS, it doesn't matter how much range you are potentially losing - at 2 hexes the IS Large Pulse Laser outperforms PPCs.


That's the niche for the IS pulse lasers. Although it's not even 'accurate' on the same distance on the most times, but on the very, very close distance it gets actually accurate than the other weapons. Also such jumpers are usually suffers very heavy to-hit modifier even on the close range, means every makeup for the TMM does counts.

Still I doubt that LPL does have a meaning, for large weapons are usually there for longer ranged shots, not only the bigger punch. Snub Nosed PPC is far superior weapon for the same task, and on the close range it's the ground of MPLs.

If anything, this makes them sound less effective than they actually are.

When you start having to pigeonhole a weapon into a particular type of map and/or against a particular type of enemy for it to show its value, that opens the door to people comparing other weapons on those same merits. For every map that's built-up enough to anticipate 1 hex engagements on the regular, there are three or four, or more, that are relatively open with lines of sight that reach 12 hexes.

But beyond that, against a fast jumper straight-up more rolls is generally better, even against pulse's -2 to-hit.

If you're at 1-hex against a jumper, let's say you're hitting on 10 (4 gunnery, 2 for attacker movement, 4 TMM), a pulse hits on 8, great. But what about two ERMLs? On 10s, they have a ~16% chance to hit at least once. Better than the pulse rolling on 8 (~14%), plus the chance for both to land. Not a great chance, mind you, but it exists. How about two 11s vs one 9? Pulse barely edges ahead, 10.8% vs. 11.1%.

The case where pulse weapons at 1 hex range outdo simply having more rolls is a situation where someone can keep their TN at 12 or higher consistently. In which case get a new opponent because it is a busted way of playing BT (fast jumpers pushing TNs higher than their opponent can handle) and has been known for at least as long as I've been playing MegaMek (like 2005).

Fortunately, they have other benefits, like being compact in an era where crit slots are limited, lower heat and higher damage than their ER equivalents for mediums and larges, being a legitimately good pick for anti-infantry work with SPLs on their own merits.

8+ is 41.66% rather than mere 14%, 9+ is 27.77%, and 11+ is 8.33%. You better redo your math.

Also, if a try has the successful rate of 50%, then the chance to get exactly x/2 success when you try it x times is 50% regardless of the number of x.

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #26 on: 27 January 2025, 10:42:29 »
Also, if a try has the successful rate of 50%, then the chance to get exactly x/2 success when you try it x times is 50% regardless of the number of x.
The probability of getting exactly x/2 successes is x!/([(x/2)!]^2*2^x), so it's only 50% when x = 2.

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #27 on: 27 January 2025, 12:11:32 »
I haven't seen anyone mathing dice rolls this hard since 6th Edition 40K.

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #28 on: 27 January 2025, 12:15:09 »
I find the theory crafting somewhat beside the point.  If you play on a table that isn't an open plain, IS Pulse lasers work just fine.  Mechs like the Wraith, Nightsky, and Phoenix Hawk 3PL can be devilishly dangerous opponents.  Play against them or play as them and try it out. 

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Re: Is there any point to Inner Sphere pulse lasers?
« Reply #29 on: 27 January 2025, 13:43:08 »
Before I knew what a Sagittaire was I walked up to one, and my mech disappeared.
TC and Pulse Lasers are deadly no matter what type they are.
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