Author Topic: 0 Thrust Bombing Run  (Read 2514 times)

DarkJaguar

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0 Thrust Bombing Run
« on: 20 March 2018, 20:57:03 »
So I couldn't find anything in the rules that would prevent this, but I wanted to make sure I had the right ruling post-fact.

The situation that occured was a Riever took an engine hit, reducing its thrust by 1/4 (minimum of 1 thrust loss).  With it's bomb load of 3 bombs, this put it at 0 thrust, causing it to fall one zone inward on it's next turn and ending up on the central zone.

Since it's on the central zone, it had to declare a flight path, and was able to dive bomb during it's attack phase, releasing it's 3 bombs, and putting it at 1 thrust.

Should the Riever have not been able to have made that attack, or was it handled correctly?

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #1 on: 20 March 2018, 21:01:21 »
I'm gonna have to defer to nckestrel on this one, but unless I'm mistaken I think it'd actually work something along these lines:

An ASF in the central zone with 0 thrust is required to crash (or attempt to land, if you prefer).  And you're not allowed to drop bombs (or make any attack at all) while trying to land.

Now that being said, I think you may be able to jettison bombs in that same turn the Riever took the engine hit, so it'd either have some thrust when it hit the CZ or maybe not even descend at all... off the top of my head I'm not sure on how that timing would interact.
« Last Edit: 20 March 2018, 21:03:54 by Tai Dai Cultist »

nckestrel

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #2 on: 20 March 2018, 21:20:38 »
Both Engine Hit and Thruster Hit says a unit reduced to 0 Thrust "crashes and is destroyed".  That's immediate, regardless of location.
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DarkJaguar

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #3 on: 20 March 2018, 21:29:39 »
Both Engine Hit and Thruster Hit says a unit reduced to 0 Thrust "crashes and is destroyed".  That's immediate, regardless of location.

Then why does this exist?

Quote from: Alpha Strike Core Rulebook pg.61
Thrust Loss and Aerospace Shutdown
Under these abstract rules, any airborne aerospace unit that is reduced to a Thrust of 0 as a result of damage or critical hits, or which shuts down from excess heat, will fall one zone “inward” on the Radar Map per turn as above. This fall will continue until the aerospace unit regains is Thrust, restarts from shutdown, or crashes by falling past the Central Zone. An aerospace unit that falls from the Central Zone crashes at the edge of the ground map (at an unoccupied location of the player’s choice). Crashed aerospace units are treated as destroyed, along with all units they are transporting at the time (if any).

Also

Quote from: Alpha Strike Core Rulebook pg.58
Engine Hit (Aerospace Fighters, Conventional Fighters, and Fixed-Wing Support Vehicles): The unit’s power system is damaged. For fighters and fixed-wing support vehicles, the first engine hit reduces the unit to half its Thrust rating (round down, to a minimum of 1 Thrust lost). A second Engine Hit critical will reduce the unit’s Thrust to 0 and cause it to crash. Aerospace units already on the ground will shut down and are considered destroyed.

Doesn't make any mention of immediate destruction?  What am I missing?
« Last Edit: 20 March 2018, 21:31:53 by DarkJaguar »

nckestrel

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #4 on: 20 March 2018, 22:07:22 »
I’m guessing that (“falling”) was added in errata and not quite cleaned up where it is in crit hits. So that would take precedence.
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DarkJaguar

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #5 on: 20 March 2018, 22:14:59 »
I’m guessing that (“falling”) was added in errata and not quite cleaned up where it is in crit hits. So that would take precedence.

Okay, so reduced to 0 thrust by combination of bombs and a singular engine hit does not auto kill the unit?

Conducting an air-to-ground attack with 0 thrust is possible?

As an aside, when does a unit that fails a control roll fall one zone inward?  on their next movement?

The cards from MUL say to reduce the unit to 1/4 thrust for a minimum loss of 1, while the book says 1/2 thrust.  Did I miss an errata?

Scotty

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #6 on: 20 March 2018, 22:25:38 »
Okay, so reduced to 0 thrust by combination of bombs and a singular engine hit does not auto kill the unit?

Conducting an air-to-ground attack with 0 thrust is possible?

As TDC indicated, an ASF with 0 thrust in the Central Zone crashes or may attempt a landing.  That said, the interaction of bombs on thrust will never result in a thrust less than 0, because no matter how many bombs you're carrying your thrust can not be reduced below 1 (AS pg. 54) by bombs alone.

As an aside, when does a unit that fails a control roll fall one zone inward?  on their next movement?

Immediately.  This does mean that craft with low thrust can be significantly delayed from drawing a flight path, because they must end their movement in the Central Zone to be eligible to draw a flight path.  Falling from a failed control roll is not part of their movement.
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nckestrel

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #7 on: 20 March 2018, 22:32:23 »
Correct, no auto-kill. (But Scotty is correct about the minimum 1 Thrust from bomb thrust loss, go Scotty!)

I don't see anything against it. But I think that's a "consequences of errata not fully thought out". But as currently rewritten, I don't see anything that prevents a 0 Thrust unit from attacking normally.

The move inward should replace it's normal move. Disagree with Scotty here, the rules comment on how this falling movement continues each turn, it can't happen immediately and repeatedly. It should be part of movement. Also, saying it's immediate would then lead to the assumption, since nothing says otherwise, that the unit can move during it's movement. "Units with less than 10 thrust can move one zone per turn". It would never crash. It would fall in one zone, then move out, then fall back, move out again.  (Errata could say a 0 thrust unit can't move or attack except by the required falling inward each turn in the end phase, but it doesn't say that now.)

MUL template is off.
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DarkJaguar

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #8 on: 20 March 2018, 22:35:41 »
As TDC indicated, an ASF with 0 thrust in the Central Zone crashes or may attempt a landing.  That said, the interaction of bombs on thrust will never result in a thrust less than 0, because no matter how many bombs you're carrying your thrust can not be reduced below 1 (AS pg. 54) by bombs alone.

I missed the part about bombs not reducing you to zero, though being in central zone with zero thrust only causes you to crash if you're already in the central zone and cannot move out of it on your movement, yes?

Quote from: nckestrel
The move inward should replace it's normal move. Disagree with Scotty here, the rules comment on how this falling movement continues each turn,

Even for failed control rolls?  We currently operate that you're forced to use one of your zone movements on the next turn to do such, but I just want to be sure, since it feels a bit unspecific when it happens in the rules (maybe clarify that with an errata?)

Scotty

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #9 on: 20 March 2018, 22:37:23 »
The move inward should replace it's normal move. Disagree with Scotty here, the rules comment on how this falling movement continues each turn, it can't happen immediately and repeatedly. It should be part of movement. Also, saying it's immediate would then lead to the assumption, since nothing says otherwise, that the unit can move during it's movement. "Units with less than 10 thrust can move one zone per turn". It would never crash. It would fall in one zone, then move out, then fall back, move out again.  (Errata could say a 0 thrust unit can't move or attack except by the required falling inward each turn in the end phase, but it doesn't say that now.)

My comment on this one was aimed explicitly and specifically at altitude loss for failed control rolls, not for Falling (i.e. 0 thrust).
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nckestrel

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #10 on: 20 March 2018, 22:41:42 »
My comment on this one was aimed explicitly and specifically at altitude loss for failed control rolls, not for Falling (i.e. 0 thrust).

Got it, I missed where we switched from thrust 0 to damage control roll. 
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DarkJaguar

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #11 on: 20 March 2018, 23:00:50 »
Got it, I missed where we switched from thrust 0 to damage control roll.

Could I request the word 'Immediately' be added to the failed control role rule then?

Scotty

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #12 on: 20 March 2018, 23:05:32 »
Quote
Falling out of a zone due to a failed roll automatically ends
all air-to-air engagements the unit is involved in at the time,
leaving all of its opponents in the original zone.
If an airborne aerospace unit is in the Central Zone when it
fails its Control Roll, it crashes at the end of its flight path over
the ground map and is considered destroyed.

Seems pretty clear cut to me.  All damage effects happen during the end phase; the fall is not triggered by having 0 thrust (the criteria for falling in the movement phase), so it happens when the damage takes effect.
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DarkJaguar

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Re: 0 Thrust Bombing Run
« Reply #13 on: 20 March 2018, 23:24:28 »
Seems pretty clear cut to me.  All damage effects happen during the end phase; the fall is not triggered by having 0 thrust (the criteria for falling in the movement phase), so it happens when the damage takes effect.

What's it hurt to add the word "immediately"?  If my group looked at the rule and didn't come to that conclusion, it doesn't matter if -you- understood it.  Players aren't.