Author Topic: Growing your fleet  (Read 73030 times)

Metallgewitter

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #390 on: 20 February 2023, 05:26:35 »
A Robinson copy would be doable but the Robinson was a Great House ship. Not a former SLDF design. I could see the Potemkin being the 'Go to' design the Clans would go for as a new build.

Well lore wise there could be the use of Samarkands as a go to measure for copying transport ships. Several Clans seemed to have Samarkands in their caches (probably remnants from either material transfer to the SLDf or even spoils of war from the Combine). Though IIRC they were all reactivated and then lost during the Wars of Reaving. In other cases I would say Potemkins or perhaps even Carracks as transport ships

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #391 on: 20 February 2023, 07:28:39 »
It is called a Nightlord.

Nah way too big and pricey for a budget minded clan

Jellico

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #392 on: 20 February 2023, 14:33:17 »
Someone writing TRO 3057 decided Warships carrying battalion of Mechs was a good idea. Hence the Kyushu and Nightlord.
The Robinson is an extension of that.

If that isn't enough, go check out the Corone.

Stormlion1

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #393 on: 21 February 2023, 12:25:34 »
Someone writing TRO 3057 decided Warships carrying battalion of Mechs was a good idea. Hence the Kyushu and Nightlord.
The Robinson is an extension of that.

If that isn't enough, go check out the Corone.

Pretty much what a Fox was designed for. Transport your invasion force and give it cover after it hits the ground. Hopefully not with the Fox itself.
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Gaiiten

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #394 on: 22 February 2023, 12:06:14 »
So could carriers be the future of CBT warships (carrying dropships (standard and pocket warships) and aerospace fighters)?

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AlphaMirage

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #395 on: 22 February 2023, 12:13:41 »
So could carriers be the future of CBT warships (carrying dropships (standard and pocket warships) and aerospace fighters)?

I think carriers probably actually would have been a better start but I don't think that would be the best choice for the ilClan era. Pocket Warships probably are unfortunately because they are capable of ground pounding and decent in a universe without many other proper warships

Jellico

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #396 on: 22 February 2023, 14:26:36 »
Ask what do WarShips do that other platforms don't? Essentially they are a properly armored jump core. So yes. Carrying stuff into hostile environments is probably what they are best for.

The problem is capability comes with size. A Fox isn't very survivable so gigantism is inevitable. Gigantism encourages ather capabilities and suddenly your WarShip is a narrative problem.

Gaiiten

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #397 on: 22 February 2023, 14:44:14 »
But is in a game of domination gigantism of weapons a neccessary tool?
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Stormlion1

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #398 on: 24 February 2023, 19:32:30 »
Building that Fox with its multiple Docking Collars and armor and guns of course creates the need to create something to kill that Fox. A Destroyer or a Cruiser and of course the builders of said counter will want to add everything and the kitchen sink. It's how Arms Races start and continue. We saw that in the Star League. We even saw it in the 3050's once warships were on the table again.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #399 on: 25 February 2023, 00:49:00 »
Ask what do WarShips do that other platforms don't? Essentially they are a properly armored jump core. So yes. Carrying stuff into hostile environments is probably what they are best for.

The problem is capability comes with size. A Fox isn't very survivable so gigantism is inevitable. Gigantism encourages ather capabilities and suddenly your WarShip is a narrative problem.

Your warship becomes a narrative problem the moment you hyper-focus on a single role and forget that interstellar distance can't be spanned by walking, or even interplanetary distances, and when you persist in ignoring that even inside a solar system Space is Big, depending on orbital period a trip from earth to mars can run anywhere from a month, to nine months or more.

Earth. To. Mars.

at newtonian speeds, months to get Anywhere.

means your dropships have to be pushing physics-breaking speeds to be adequate for anything but immediate orbital control over a planet.

For that mission, smaller warships become a lot more pragmatic, as does any situation where you need to make maximum use of a limited pool of trained personnel, such as patrol and coverage missions. (If you can't shit out a thousand Potemkins a week, and staff them, you might wanna consider something..smaller for your recon and flank security needs.)

Dropships don't work to monitor 'deadspace' systems pirates and smugglers will use to get around your border security, don't work for collecting intelligence ahead of your offensive, counter-offensive or antipiracy roles, don't have the ability to get a message to fleet when there's a big-damned-invasion just hit a planet and the HPG's are still down, don't move messages on a strategic level to let you coordinate SOME KIND OF RESPONSE to a probing attack...

there's a lot more uses than "Bus for battlemechs" or "Flying atrocity factory".

Droppers work...in close orbit or when linked to a jump-capable ship near a stable point.  They don't have the legs or the time to be much use anywhere else, which is fine, because the current state of the game doesn't really ALLOW for strategic scales, every tabletop is by definition a fixed position battle.
« Last Edit: 25 February 2023, 00:57:13 by Cannonshop »
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truetanker

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #400 on: 25 February 2023, 01:04:50 »
Question:

What would a " Fleet " should look like?

I mean I was watching the AHC history channel the other night about assigning a CVE with 4 DDEs and a Liberty or two to act as long range refuelers for the Convoy fleets " Support ".

What would this translate to in BTverse?

TT
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Cannonshop

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #401 on: 25 February 2023, 01:55:39 »
Question:

What would a " Fleet " should look like?

I mean I was watching the AHC history channel the other night about assigning a CVE with 4 DDEs and a Liberty or two to act as long range refuelers for the Convoy fleets " Support ".

What would this translate to in BTverse?

TT

DO you love paperwork?   does the prospect of spending hours upon hours doing paperwork excite you?

Does the prospect of having to work up multiple databases the size of a mid-eighties urban phone-book get you all a-tizzy?

Navies operate on Details.  Details like logistics trains, allocation of resources, fuel, and personnel rotation, food...because you can't just pop out the airlock and go grab a to-go-order of eats at midnight in the middle of a patrol.

And warships, dropships, and jumpships don't generate their own food supplies...or air, or water.

Or fuel.  (at least, not without equipment carried specifically to do it, and trained personnel who can identify the right cometary content...)

everything is finite.  You have your ship, the air in that ship is all the air you get to have, your life support scrubbers and recycling are all that stand between you and turning bluish-purple as you suffocate.

water? same thing.  Storage tanks and what recycling equipment you have, is all that keeps your tongue from swelling and spliting in your dry mouth as you die of dehydration.

which is one of the nastier ways you can die, just in case you're wondering.

Imagine your environment.  You have 'inside the ship' (or station) and that's only safe and healthy as long as you have the power and the maintenance slack to keep it safe and healthy.

Outside, is millions to billions to infinite kilometers of one atom per cubic meter, which will kill you if you go out there without a suit.

This is a very different paradigm to 'mech combat, where being outside your mech is risky, but not instant death without full life support in most cases.

To build your navy, then, is to build a force that is operating in a supremely hostile environment, where mistakes or negligence will kill you faster than enemy action.

You're going to want to start with your logistics-the movement, and distribution of things like air, water, food, fuel, and spares.

It doesn't matter how many guns you have, if your crew is dead.  Feel me here?

Everything is finite, everything must be actively maintained, or your crew dies and your ships become worthless.

SO, you begin with Logistics, but what you REALLY begin with, is training and selection, because while Petey-the-huge might be amusing when he mistakes the side of the barracks for an outhouse since he didn't grow up with running water, he'll kill himself and everyone else if he tries to go outside for a quick piss on the side of the ship (and leaves the door open).

automatics can solve some of that-if they're maintained.  That's part of your training AND your logistics. (If you can't fix the door seals because you don't have the stuff, you can't fix the door seals and you'll run out of air pretty fast with a leak.)


Supply chain also counts as a Navy mission, since if your supplies can be easily destroyed or hijacked, you can't maintain a navy.

This is a critical-to-your-survival thing.

In general terms, you either want lots of colliers per active combat ship to provide those supplies, or you want big ones that can service several combat ships simultaneously.  Either way, "Bulk Dropships are your friend", because you don't strictly NEED a warship to carry them, and lots of civilian jumpships can haul those supply mules around, or chain them forward for quicker resupply.

Now, you can't have your ships constantly on deployment.  the lesson of the Kuznetsov is worth learning: if you have to run your power while docked, you're going to wear out your power generation gear, and end up breaking down when you actually go to sea. 

Stations aren't invulnerable fortresses.  They're highly vulnerable supply points and targets.  Treat them accordingly, and protect them accordingly.

What you saw in 'Ilclan' or Kerensky's march on Terra? is what happens when a ground general (and political appointee) designs your Naval defenses and fails to understand that space is not only big, but three dimensional.

With vERy, very, very, long distances where you can be seen, but you might not see if you're not looking the right way.

Because competent spacers don't fall out of the womb pre-trained and grown in large lots, you're going to want to maximize your available officers to give the best coverage you can get.

This tends to NOT mean an emphasis on dropships, unless that's all you can build, in which case, your dropships are subordinate in value to the jumpship that hauls them.

Doesn't sound fair, right? the dropships/pocket warships have all the guns, after all...

but they lack the ability to go anywhere in a timely fashion, which is something you critically NEED with a Navy.

To put it in perspective for you, a 'hexmap' covering the earth/moon system alone, just itself, at 18,000 meters per inch hex?

You're getting into "cover the basketball court with one inch hexes" territory.

18,000 Kilometers and you're still exceeding the size of most large dinner tables (or living room floors!)

Space, is Big.

adequate patrol in just the Sol system would pretty much require jumpships to cover it, or jump-capable combat ships.  Most of whom will need 1 to 2 weeks each between hops.

BUT, a jump-capable force sitting at Titan's L1 can respond to an incursion or assault at earth/luna L1 weeks before a non-jumping ship can make the transit at closest orbital approach.

Hours instead of weeks.

Minutes instead of Hours for going from Earth/luna L1 to either close orbital Earth, or close orbit Luna-which is where your dropship shines, but if you don't protect that jumpship?

that's where your Dropships must remain until you can find a replacement-they're not going to be able to respond in a reasonable amount of time to a second force hitting the base at Titan after the diversion force has either left , or been defeated.

Jump capable with an LF battery can actually do that-that is, react and deliver some power and violence upon the intruders in a reasonable span of time.

Up from there, is the offensive role...which is NOT hanging in low orbit to be shot down (FSS Lucien DAVION!!).

Offense roles include, but aren't limited to:

1. Recon-going to other places to look around before you risk your expensive ground units on a raid or attack.

2. Moving info: this is both an offense, and defense, function.  HPG's down, you need to know about an attack? it's unlikely that the Dragaus or Overlord C or A3 or other PWS is going to be much good here, it can't leave the system on its own.  a gunless jumpship CAN.  Even an explorer class rich-people-yacht is more useful in this role than a thousand pocket warships.

3. Raids and spoiling attacks, strikes and commerce raiding.  These are bread-and-butter missions on the offense, and require strategic mobility to be of any value at all...even if both sides are in the same system on different moons or planets.

4. Ground forces/ Invasion insertion or extraction: the transport mission.  "Bus-driver for BAttlemechs".  This usually works better if you have good intel and scout ahead.


with the roles figured out, the equipment should be self-evident.

a few things to contemplate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSDtGXW7J7I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgIJEWv7Hdw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aX3fXVcQ-Q
« Last Edit: 25 February 2023, 03:25:35 by Cannonshop »
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

truetanker

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #402 on: 26 February 2023, 01:23:54 »
I got book one thru seven read...

Unto the twenty others...

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #403 on: 10 April 2024, 18:44:39 »
While I don’t think any are cannocial stated as being amongst the clans the Dart light cruiser seems perfect for the spirits

As am in midst of yet another Ares miniatures order I wanted to :

1) ask again if the existence of dart cruiser(s) can be totally ruled out in the clan homeworlds
2) in the mandrill thread a question occurred to me: could you acquire in a “ rent to own” deal? For example kindraa mick kreese has one warship ( Lola iii) and one heavily armed transport/warship ( Potemkin) could the kindraa “lease” another warship to conduct a strike if for example they agreed to provide escort and transport via the Potemkin for a preset time period?
2a) could the mandrills utilize their Potemkin to help another clan drop an extra big hammer on a rival with the agreement they can claim any defeated ships as prizes or salvage?

Metallgewitter

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Re: Growing your fleet
« Reply #404 on: 11 April 2024, 01:41:50 »
If Sarna is to be believed the Dart cruiser class died over Mars during the opening of Operation Apotheosis. That was the RWRS Conquistador. Prior to that the SLDF believed to have destroyed the last Dart in Taurian space in 2722. And I haven't found any other mention of Dart cruisers

 

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