BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Designs and Rules => Topic started by: Daryk on 20 October 2019, 06:08:13
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Thanks to Great Club for this idea!
Starting with the standard Gauss Rifle and Light Gauss Rifle, and comparing them to the AC range of weapons, it seems we're missing a couple at the low end. So:
Weapon Type Heat Damage Minimum Short Medium Long Ammo Tons Criticals
Very Light Gauss Rifle DB,X 1 5 4 1-9 10-18 18-27 24 9 4
Ultra Light Gauss Rifle DB,X 1 3 5 1-10 11-20 21-30 32 6 3
If they take critical hits, the VLGR explodes for 10 points of damage, and the ULGR for 5.
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nice substitutes for ACs,
now park that Jager on a hill with these and start popping targets on the next map
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Thanks! That was my thinking exactly... 8)
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With the weight of the gauss rifle compared to the damage...is it worth it.
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That was the balancing I was trying to achieve. Since you're asking the question, I think I succeeded... ;)
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Well, it's a way to obsolete the smaller autocannons, anyways.
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With the exception of the specialty ammo they can use. That's what keeps them viable in the face of LB-Xs and Ultras already.
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With the exception of the specialty ammo they can use. That's what keeps them viable in the face of LB-Xs and Ultras already.
The specialty ammo is a bandage, not really enough to let them compare to the LB-X and Ultra, let alone these.
For the weight of an AC/2 you can get an UltraLight Gauss with an absurd range bracket increase and a 50% increase in damage. Also, if it explodes it's not nearly as devastating as an Autocannon ammo explosion. That's an upgrade on nearly all platforms regardless of how much Precision Ammo you stuff on it, except maybe something like a Jagermech for the AA role (flak ammo), but then again the #1 rule of AA guns is just "Range" on repeat.
I'd honestly replace any IS AC/2 or UAC/2 with one of those without a second thought. I'd probably replace the IS LB 2-X on most things too unless I really wanted an AA pop-gun. And it compares extremely well to the Clan LB 2-X and UAC/2.
Imagine a Warrior H-7 variant with one. You'd stop the Clan Invasion cold at the Rasalhague Dominion's Borders.
The Very-Light Gauss Rifle (Why not XL?) has a similar thing. You pay an extra ton to upgrade AC/5s to a VLGR and you get a rather crazy 50% range boosts, and a more mild explosion compared to an autocannon hit. Considering the state of the AC/5 that seems like an absolute win to me.
Drop a ton of SRM ammo from the SHD-2D and replace the AC/5 with a VLGR, and the 'Mech all of the sudden is a respectable sniper.
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I went with "VLGR" because I had "ULGR" in mind, and the next step from "XL" is "XXL", which I didn't like very much.
As for the ULGR, do you think it should be a ton heavier? I'm convincible here... I was just using the 3-ton step from GR to LGR and repeated it.
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I went with "VLGR" because I had "ULGR" in mind, and the next step from "XL" is "XXL", which I didn't like very much.
As for the ULGR, do you think it should be a ton heavier? I'm convincible here... I was just using the 3-ton step from GR to LGR and repeated it.
Well, my preferred solution would be to make Autocannons not suck, rather than to nerf Gauss Rifles in general. So it's more of a complaint about canonical Autocannons than about these.
I just don't personally see a real need for super light-weight versions of Gauss Rifles that handily outrange everything that's not an artillery piece. Other than casting another spotlight on how bad small ACs are, they're not too bad themselves, and I bet they work well enough. I'm just happy with the Light/Standard/Heavy paradigm, and just feel there's going to be inherent issues trying to go further in either direction (Ultra-Heavy or Ultra-Light Gauss Rifles). That's all.
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That's one of the reasons I stuck with the existing Ultra/LB-X ranges vice going beyond. If six or seven tons makes no difference, I'll probably just stick with six, since that follows the 3-ton difference thing between GRs and LGRs.
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It makes for an interesting historical revision: what if the light gauss was not an attempt to reverse engineer a Clan-spec gauss rifle, but instead was introduced earlier as an attempt to reproduce the Star League model?
And a question. Why not make the ranges on the very/ultra models shorter, rather than extending them to extreme range? Similar to the reduced ranges of the LAC models?
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Interesting idea... what would you propose? The APGR is 0.5 ton, and has 3/6/9 range...
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And the Magshot is similar. That's where the thought was, bridging the mid ground between those two and the light/standard/heavy models.
I want to say ~15 hexes for the one and ~18 for the other; I know some don't like uneven range brackets but I would recommend it here, with a couple more hexes in the long range. Those ranges would mean lighter weights than what you put down though.
That's all by feel at this point.
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The danger there is we get into LAC territory, and they're MUCH lighter (4 for the 2, 5 for the 5)...
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My only quibble is that you didn’t take it to the logical extreme of an XXXS being able to plink for one damage from a kilometer
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33 hexes would just about be that, and it IS the next step in the chain (and 34 really wouldn't be a reach), but a 3 ton weapon that could do that would probably be beyond the pale...
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if firing a projectile at hypersonic speeds from a map and a half away is wrong, i don't want to be right
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Hmmm... maybe at four tons? Say, three crits?
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I still like them either way.
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WAY back in the day, a guy i gamed with and I came up with a Gauss Pistol. 6 tons, 3 crit. 3 heat and fired 3x 5-point shots. Same range as the normal gauss rifle. If critted, caused 15 points damage like the standard gauss rifle. Quirk: It could only.. ONLY fire 3 shots at a time. (We came up with some design issues that caused this to be). If the first round hit, the second was a +1 and the third was a +2 (I think) or automatic....cannot remember. Ammo was 24 / ton. I don't think we ever came up with BV for it. Put it in a Panther and it was nasty.
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Nasty indeed! I think I'd have called that an SMG or Carbine vice Pistol, but to each their own.
And I'm leaning toward the 4-ton, 3-crit solution for Sartris' range fixation... ::)
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A lighter tri-UAC/5 with more range, less weight, less space, more ammo. I'll bet it was.
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A lighter tri-UAC/5 with more range, less weight, less space, more ammo. I'll bet it was.
I thought the same - maybe that would have been the solution for the other thread - just add the word Gauss.
So for example a Gauss Missile, or a Gauss Autocannon.
Sry, I could not resist to deliver that cheap jab.
But when you get at those ridiculous low weights consider to go with ranges in the other direction.
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Given the current ban on that topic, I think it best to avoid those cheap jabs...
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Well, I admit I didn't had expected that your Gauss Rifles are more balanced compared to the already existing Gauss Weapons.
(without headcapping 1.2 bonus)
Weapon BV B/LF
Gauss-25 288 12.5
Gauss-22 320 12.8
Gauss-15 267 14.8
Gauss-8 159 11.4
Gauss-5 104 9.5
Gauss-3 68 8.5
Gauss-2 15 6.0
Compared to the official ballistics the additional Gauss Rifles are in a good spot - comparable with LBX and UAC5.
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Only 68 BV on that Gauss-3? That's quite the steal. Considering the ELRM-5 comes in at 67, I'd easily drop one of 'em for a Plinker Gauss.
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I'm going to call that victory right there... Especially since I didn't do ANY of the BV math... 8)
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What does it look like if you do only this single one:
Weapon Type Heat Damage Minimum Short Medium Long Ammo Tons Criticals
Ultra Light Gauss Rifle DB,X 1 4 5 1-10 11-20 21-30 24 9 4
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I like it. As I mentioned before, any lighter and it's less a lightweight gauss rifle and more of a heavy MagShot, with attendant range.
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Hmmm... I think it's workable as a stand alone, but misses an opportunity for two or three weapons.
Here's the full set, including Sartris' request for 1 damage at 1 km range:
Weapon Type Heat Damage Minimum Short Medium Long Ammo Tons Criticals
Very Light Gauss Rifle DB,X 1 5 4 1-9 10-18 18-27 24 9 4
Ultra Light Gauss Rifle DB,X 1 3 5 1-10 11-20 21-30 32 6 3
Extremely Light Gauss Rifle DB,X 1 1 6 1-11 11-22 21-34 50 4 2If they take critical hits, the VLGR explodes for 10 points of damage, and the ULGR and ELGR for 5.
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Puny Magnetic cannon has a killing BV of 25 (4.2 BLF- you can drop the weight down to 3 and reduce heat to zero and increase ammo to 100 and still its the worst of all gauss rifles....
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Nasty indeed! I think I'd have called that an SMG or Carbine vice Pistol, but to each their own.
And I'm leaning toward the 4-ton, 3-crit solution for Sartris' range fixation... ::)
Found the old ruleset we made. 3-ton, 2-crit. We even had a "crazy tech" option... LOL. Add on capacitors. 1t/1crit. makes damage 6 per shot, increases all ranges by 2 hex. Also added a chance of exploding if used sequentially like jamming for ultra ACs.
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What's the BV on an APGR again? ???
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What's the BV on an APGR again? ???
21
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Interesting, thanks... I think I'd value such a long range weapon a bit over an APGR too.
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Interesting, thanks... I think I'd value such a long range weapon a bit over an APGR too.
Sure, especially on a chopper or other fast mover. APGR's more of a super MG than an anti-mech gun though.
Oh, one question: Is there a reason you went with 32/50 rounds for the two guns instead of 40/120 to standardize to 120 damage/ton like most of the other gauss rifles? (Silver Bullet, APGR, HAGs, and the normal Gauss Rifle.)
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Just my opinion of game balance, really. A standard 120 damage per ton is appealing, but makes opting for half a ton of ammo (or less) too easy for the lighter weapons.
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Just my opinion of game balance, really. A standard 120 damage per ton is appealing, but makes opting for half a ton of ammo (or less) too easy for the lighter weapons.
That would adjust my idea of only one more GR to:
Weapon Type Heat Damage Minimum Short Medium Long Ammo Tons Criticals
Ultra Light Gauss Rifle DB,X 1 4 5 1-10 11-20 21-30 30 9 4
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Still very reasonable if only going with one additional rifle... :thumbsup:
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Just my opinion of game balance, really. A standard 120 damage per ton is appealing, but makes opting for half a ton of ammo (or less) too easy for the lighter weapons.
Interesting. Personally, I don't consider that to be a big issue, but thanks for the explanation.
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I'm a fan of Fractional Accounting, so when a mere quarter ton of ammo provides ample ammunition for anything bigger than a Machine Gun, I'm skeptical. The Sartris Special would get 30 shots out of a quarter ton with a standard 120 points of damage per ton, and that just struck me as wrong for a weapon with a kilometer of range.
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I'm a fan of Fractional Accounting, so when a mere quarter ton of ammo provides ample ammunition for anything bigger than a Machine Gun, I'm skeptical. The Sartris Special would get 30 shots out of a quarter ton with a standard 120 points of damage per ton, and that just struck me as wrong for a weapon with a kilometer of range.
I can see that point. I think there's several non-MG weapons that would be sufficient with mere quarter-tons of ammo, and it wouldn't bother me at all if the ammo loads could be allocated in half and quarter-ton allotments even w/o Fractional Accounting. (SRM-2, SSRM-2, SLRM-5, and the AC/2)
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True, but those are all below 15 with a quarter ton, and that's about my limit for "ample".
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not to go against the "Dark Age" feel of the BTU, with "only a few factories still standing" churning out "only a few makes & models of remaining weapons"
but clearly all of these LGR designs follow an essentially predictable pattern of tonnages / damages / ranges...
ergo, they all adhere to some not-overly-complicated mathematical design formula...
you could hypothetically just define a design formula...
plug in tonnage, out comes damage / range / ammo per ton etc.
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Honestly, I see that as a foundation stone of consistency, something I always strive for in rules. Maybe its my physics training...
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Honestly, I see that as a foundation stone of consistency, something I always strive for in rules. Maybe its my physics training...
in round numbers,
(damage x range) / (tons [+ton of ammo] + heat) = 10 [IS], 12 [SL], 16 [Clan]
but even the SL GR is 19-20, and the Clan's is 23-24
If a SL-tech-level ULGR masses 9 tons and generates [most of] 1 heat and requires [some of] 1 ton for ammo...
that's 10-11 in the denominator...
x(19-20) for SL-tech-level GRs is around 200...
so if it does only 5 damage...
it "ought" to have a range of ~40, maybe 36 if it generated 0 heat
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And that's why game balance is more art than science...
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You have play tested those designs, then? You've observed a range of 36-40 for an ULGR destabilizing the game?
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Not yet, no. But I also have yet to see a clear line of sight that long anywhere other than where maps meet (which I break up with terrain when I'm running a game).
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Not yet, no. But I also have yet to see a clear line of sight that long anywhere other than where maps meet (which I break up with terrain when I'm running a game).
Would getting a character Quirk so they are medium and short-range specialists be helpful? (So they get a bonus to hit if the target is at medium or short range)
A weapon with a much larger medium and short range category would be useful for them
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That would definitely be a solid way to exploit these weapons.
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Not yet, no. But I also have yet to see a clear line of sight that long anywhere other than where maps meet (which I break up with terrain when I'm running a game).
well, whatever works well :D
all I'm saying, is that the D x R / (T [+ammo] + H) = 10 rule basically describes all 3025 weapons
if you had some desire to maintain the D x R / (T [+ammo] + H) = 20 for SL GR's, while still keeping ranges R manageable, one could do so by (say) increasing the damage D of the weapons
For T = 6 & 9 tons (not including ammo), H = 0 or 1 HP each... damages of around 5 & 7 would imply ranges around 30 or so... the LGR "ought" to do more like 10D
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No arguing with your math, but I think TPTB actually made a good call with the LGR. 10 damage would have made it a "must have" weapon.
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The LGR would be a solid weapon at damages of 8-10, though I feel 9 is the sweet spot.
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Would be? It does 8... ???
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Would be? It does 8... ???
I meant if we were to theoretically change the LGR's damage, since Thunderbolt's talking about how much it "ought" to do.
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Ah, gotcha… thanks for the clarification! :thumbsup: