Author Topic: Which ship had the most kills  (Read 1620 times)

casperionx

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Which ship had the most kills
« on: 13 October 2024, 22:57:23 »
So we know that only a small fraction of the warship fleet survives to current day (ilclan era), it got me thinking, is there a warship with the most amount of kills? Both overall and for a ship thats still around today?

Alan Grant

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #1 on: 14 October 2024, 06:26:05 »
Short version: We don't know the answer to either question in any definitive sense. Every warship we have details of has vague gaps in their battle history. For example we might know that they participated in one of the times Terra was liberated, yet not know how many "kills" they racked up. We rarely have specific details (particularly on who scored what kills) except for a few very specific battles that are well-detained in the novel fiction or sourcebook material. These are usually smaller battles where we get something like a play-by-play of the entire battle.

Longer version:

The answer to the latter question is probably one of the Clan warships with history dating all the way back to the SLDF. The trick is they've mostly been renamed and their battle histories aren't fully known. But there's no doubt in my mind that some of those ships that were part of Kerensky's campaign to liberate Terra racked up some kills, and then continued to get a few more in the centuries since, particularly through any combat they saw in the Jihad/Wars of Reaving era.

The answer to the first question is probably some Terran Hegemony vessel (possibly turned SLDF) from back when warships were plentiful. Think some "Age of War" vessel. In those days there were a lot of warships flying around, the Terran Hegemony, all the Great Houses, everyone had some, and accounts of their various combat exploits only fill the margins of some books here or there. There is evidence that warship combat was a lot more common and routine in those early days and that naval power (and actively using it) was a priority for the Terran Hegemony. Not just titanic clashes, but more common border fighting, including significant naval battles and the like that the books have not covered in complete detail.

Going farther out on a speculative limb, the answer may be some Aegis-class vessel. Think about how long that class has been in service. There are probably some hulls of that class that have been cycled through many times. Fought in the Terran Hegemony navy, got refitted and fought with the SLDF in the Reunification War, got refitted again and fight in the Amaris Coup. Just by sheer time in service and the number of conflicts they've survived through, they've had the most opportunity at least, to rack up the most kills.

Although I can't stress enough, there was a lot of common warship fighting in the Terran Hegemony days. It's very possible the top-scoring winner lived its entire service life.. .from commissioning to death or scrapped, before the Star League even existed. Part of me thinks it would be kinda strange and yet appropriate if it was a class of vessel that hasn't been around in more modern Battletech time, like a Monsoon-class Battleship. According to TRO 3057 Revised, at the time several of the Monsoon-class named vessels were legendary and had legendary names among the navy and the SLDF Admirals, full of nostalgia for these ships, tried to keep them in service for as long as possible. It also describes them as once having terrorized enemy fleets in the Age of War era, which makes it feel like they did do a lot of fighting.

Statistically speaking, it's highly unlikely that the top-scoring winner of all time exists in the ilClan era. The vast majority of warships ever built in the Battletech universe no longer exist. To me it's a slim bet that a top-scoring warship of all time still survives.
« Last Edit: 14 October 2024, 07:43:34 by Alan Grant »

Daryk

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #2 on: 14 October 2024, 07:43:05 »
Counting kills for warships is also tricky because carriers (for example) kill other ships via their airwings.

Hellraiser

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #3 on: 16 October 2024, 10:35:27 »
So we know that only a small fraction of the warship fleet survives to current day (ilclan era), it got me thinking, is there a warship with the most amount of kills? Both overall and for a ship thats still around today?

For a 3130s ship wasn't the Tharkad still around?

That ship dated back to the SLDF Era & alone got like 4+ kills when it broke the siege of Hesperus in the 2nd SW.

If not it, then some Clan vessel or WoB reactivated ship that managed to survive the Amaris war but the Tharkad is the only one I can think of where we KNOW it has a # from a single battle alone.
« Last Edit: 16 October 2024, 14:25:38 by Hellraiser »
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #4 on: 16 October 2024, 12:52:05 »
I’ll put up the Ursa Major as one with a bunch of confirmed kills (at least six) and participated in several large naval actions in which they were victorious (from the Blakist invasions and Jihad and the Nova Cat Wars and the Alshain Avengers attack).

She might not have the most kills (I’d say the McKenna’s Pride MIGHT be up there) but as far as confirmed kills go maybe.

Hellraiser

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #5 on: 16 October 2024, 14:27:15 »
She might not have the most kills (I’d say the McKenna’s Pride MIGHT be up there) but as far as confirmed kills go maybe.

Oh, that reminds me, what about the Lev-Prime?  Didn't that thing go crazy in the Homeworlds & eat portions of several clan fleets?
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"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
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Gorgon

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #6 on: 16 October 2024, 16:45:48 »
Oh, that reminds me, what about the Lev-Prime?  Didn't that thing go crazy in the Homeworlds & eat portions of several clan fleets?

Yeah, the Perigard Zalman was a beast. Summarizing sarna, that's her kill list as far as I can make out:

Strana Mechty

CDS Bloodletter (Carrack)
CDS Predator (Lola III)
two more Diamond Shark warships

Lum (1 & 2)

CSR Rook (Potemkin) - participated
CSR Snowflake (Potemkin) - participated
CSR Vision of Terry (Lola III) - participated
CSR Blackbeard (Fredasa)
CSR Venture Star (Carrack)
CSR Black Justice (Aegis) - broke in atmosphere

Ghent

at least 15 jumpships
CSR Garlon (Congress)
CSR Enceladus (Potemkin) - participated

Tamaron

participated in the destruction of most of the remaining Coyote fleet
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cray

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #7 on: 16 October 2024, 17:53:43 »
Touring the Stars: Kerensky's Vision mentions a "Jack Aubrey Memorial Station (JAMS)," from which a flotilla of Lyran WarShip destroyed thousands of civilian JumpShips.

The ships of JAMS were not necessarily exceptional - the massacre of JumpShips during the First and Second Succession was epic to produce the spartan jump points of the 31st Century.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #8 on: 16 October 2024, 23:34:49 »
Touring the Stars: Kerensky's Vision mentions a "Jack Aubrey Memorial Station (JAMS)," from which a flotilla of Lyran WarShip destroyed thousands of civilian JumpShips.

The ships of JAMS were not necessarily exceptional - the massacre of JumpShips during the First and Second Succession was epic to produce the spartan jump points of the 31st Century.

Thousands you say? What idiot Lyran commander killed an economy of a Star nation?

I didn’t even think of the Leviathan Prime: I did think of the other three/four but offhand I couldn’t name ‘what’ they destroyed. For its short duration it certainly killed a lot.

The problem with this question is a lot of the larger battles don’t necessarily name who killed what: the smaller ones often do but for example the Battle of Terra (Amaris) where hundreds of Warships on each side it would take a whole chapter to list and BT has moved mostly away from phonebook entries (shame in my opinion but let’s not start that argument). Alan put it best IMO.


cray

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #9 on: 17 October 2024, 02:26:48 »
That was the goal of the First and Second Succession Wars: kill economies of enemies and render them incapable of waging interstellar war. Hence attacks on shipyards, water filter factories, terraforming gear production centers, and merchants stellaris. 200 planets died in the period.

By 3025, merely 25,000ish JumpShips were in operation, per StratOps. That was a huge decline from the Star League era

To get that decline, every House used foothills like the one at JAMS.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Vehrec

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #10 on: 18 October 2024, 08:45:41 »
why kill jumpships though?  They're so weak to boarding, and I think the skeleton crew of something like a Merchant or Invader is like six people, surely stealing them is almost cheaper comparing NAC shells to hydrogen for boarding shuttles?  Why doesn't commerce warfare work on Cruiser Rules, despite being the most Cruiser Rules friendly setting immaginable?

Hell, why was the First Succession War a war of annihilation instead of a cabinet war anyways (that may be beyond the scope of this thread).
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cray

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #11 on: 18 October 2024, 09:45:29 »
Why doesn't commerce warfare work on Cruiser Rules, despite being the most Cruiser Rules friendly setting immaginable?

The conflict probably started that way, until the Houses realized their opponents were stealing all their JumpShips and it wasn't changing the conflict. On the other hand, if you destroyed the ships and their yards then they couldn't send BattleMechs and nukes to your planets.

Hence Mechwarrior 1st Edition, Star League Sourcebook, House Marik, Davion, Steiner, and Liao Sourcebooks, and DS&JS talked about the destruction of the great Star League-era merchant stellarises.

Quote
Hell, why was the First Succession War a war of annihilation instead of a cabinet war anyways (that may be beyond the scope of this thread).

It wasn't exactly a war of annihilation. The Successor States didn't have enough WarShips and nukes to exterminate their opponents. Instead, the first Succession War had two features:
1. The land grab of the near-defenseless Hegemony worlds, and
2. "Economic warfare" - hammer the key industries of the other Houses until they can't wage interstellar warfare.

If your opponents don't have JumpShips then they can't send troops to conquer your worlds. Another way to tie up JumpShips: destroy water filter plants and terraforming equipment manufacturers. Then the enemy's JumpShips are busy running to evacuate or stabilize endangered planets rather than delivering troops and nukes to your planet. And, y'know, sometimes you just have to bust out the boomers when a planet is just too important for enemies to have it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

EPG

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #12 on: 21 October 2024, 19:43:55 »
why kill jumpships though?  They're so weak to boarding, and I think the skeleton crew of something like a Merchant or Invader is like six people, surely stealing them is almost cheaper comparing NAC shells to hydrogen for boarding shuttles?  Why doesn't commerce warfare work on Cruiser Rules, despite being the most Cruiser Rules friendly setting immaginable?

Hell, why was the First Succession War a war of annihilation instead of a cabinet war anyways (that may be beyond the scope of this thread).

Cray gave a good answer to a lot of your questions.  I thought I’d give a go at ‘why not capture enemy jump ships’ and the answer is that it’s not worth the trouble in worth the trouble in an era where jump ships were relatively cheap transport.  The other is the time and number of crew associated with capture.  The essential crew of a jump ship may be very small but the number of qualified captains and navigators who know how to run them is not that large either. 

If you’re a warship and jump into a system with 10-15 jump ships at the point you jump into, if you don’t have 10-15 spare qualified jump ship pilots and navigators to crew them, you can’t capture them.  And the old crews won’t necessarily work for you.  The customary rule that jumpships are off limits for combat? That came about after the 2nd succession war.  Before then jumpship crews might fight back.  You put a platoon of marines on each jumpship to guard them? That’ll help when the crew dumps their quarters to vacuum or sets the next jump to a friendly (to them) naval base. 

Maybe if you need a jumpship at the time you find the others and you put a prize crew on it.  Otherwise you just blow it up. 

The other problem is time. Let’s say your mission is to capture disrupt or destroy enemy merchant shipping.  You bring 10 prize crews with you and eventually capture and send home 10 jump ships.  How long will it be
Before yoir prize crews come back? 6 months? A year? Never because they are awarded permanent command of the new jumpship? In the meantime you don’t stop looking for enemy shipping just because you can’t capture any temporarily - you continue, but the rest of them get blown up because you haven’t got any options.

Hellraiser

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #13 on: 21 October 2024, 21:27:52 »
The other is the time and number of crew associated with capture.  The essential crew of a jump ship may be very small but the number of qualified captains and navigators who know how to run them is not that large either.   
This is what I see as an issue.
Capturing ONE JS, sure, you can split your own crew a bit.
...capturing 5, iffy,
.... capturing 20 over the course of a year, unlikely.

At a certain point you've diluted your own crew far too much.
Even if you somehow have the captured crew under guard & disperse them over your "fleet" & press them into being forced labor, it will eventually be too much.
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3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Triptych

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #14 on: 24 October 2024, 03:45:22 »
Touring the Stars: Kerensky's Vision mentions a "Jack Aubrey Memorial Station (JAMS)," from which a flotilla of Lyran WarShip destroyed thousands of civilian JumpShips.

The ships of JAMS were not necessarily exceptional - the massacre of JumpShips during the First and Second Succession was epic to produce the spartan jump points of the 31st Century.
Did the BT writers make Patrick O'Brien's Jack Aubrey into a mass murderer or was he one of the victims?

cray

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #15 on: 24 October 2024, 04:21:29 »
Did the BT writers

Touring the Stars products generally have one writer.

Quote
make Patrick O'Brien's Jack Aubrey into a mass murderer or was he one of the victims?

I gave his name to the spaceport. The Lyrans based there did the commerce raiding, not a fictional sailor written 800 years earlier.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Cannonshop

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #16 on: 24 October 2024, 04:50:43 »
Hm.   this gives me an idea.

You set up a sort of 'Juke box'.

It has  a simple processor for defining location upon activation from the sensors, and a set of galactic coordinates with an algoritm to adjust for the location.

IN 1st Succession Wars terms, the ships are still more expensive than the crews, and you can train a hell of a lot more electricians and mechancis, than you can train astrophysicists.

So...your marines storm the jumpship, and the crew vents atmo and keeps fighting back, but the ship?

It's going to follow a pre-plotted series of jumps, see, the juke box has a connection to the nav board, and a little, simple robot arm to flip the switch on a spring return, becuase when it flips the switch?

The jukebox, having already loaded the coordinates (to within a reasonable ratio of error) Turns off for the jump.

The EMP from arrival? switches it back on.

Simple, brute force mechanics and probably cheaper than finding a new astophysicist to run the ship you just stole.

*(which is kind of important since we're nuking the next generation of Navigators in the university...)

It can only, of course, follow the most direct route, and it can't adjust to emergencies or misjumps very well...but I bet it could account for several thousand jumpships, with a loss rate of only 25-50 percent, which is still moving the needle to the positive in a commerce raiding environment.

A simpler one yet, would be copying the Pathfinder module's drone system-because the first jumpships that left, and returned, were automated using a lower-tech system.
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DOC_Agren

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Re: Which ship had the most kills
« Reply #17 on: 26 October 2024, 21:32:14 »
Cannonshop, just so I understand this "Juke box" you preprogram it with lets say 5 to 10  standard jumps or more, and hard install it where the Navigator should be working.  It will then Star the Jump with autoshutoff switch for the jump for EMP, when you arrive charge the drive and turn the switch back on, prepare to jump again.
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