Author Topic: Mech of the Week: Longbow  (Read 17832 times)

Greatclub

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Mech of the Week: Longbow
« on: 21 July 2018, 03:48:39 »
I was looking for longbow varients to match a model I have, and was surprised that there were no mech of the week articles released for it. After some thought, and a perusal of Sarna, SSW and my TROs, I decided to do a hack-job of it


The Longbow. The unseen FASA didn't use, though I'm going to ignore the politics there. With TRO 3058 it retroactively became one of the most widely deployed mechs in the Inner Sphere, in use everywhere, with everyone.

The basic Longbow, the 7Q is a specialist. It has 50 LRM tubes (2x5, 2x20), ammunition, heat sinks, and assault-scale armor to absorb some return fire. Everything else is secondary to being able to brick the firing button until the enemy falls under the steady hail of LRMs; Two minutes, with no need to stutter like the Archer. The armor being weirdly biased towards the rear is the only thing that prevents it from being perfect in its role.

The introtech OW (actually the first one published) takes one of the best features of the the -7Q Longbow, its armor, and reduces it to light mech levels in favor of a bigger engine. It also removes the medium lasers, leaving it basically hapless to anything that gets in close, and enough heat sinks that sustained fire is a toasty prospect. While it is a hundred points cheaper than an Archer, I have no other idea why you would chose an OW over any other model, and for twenty more BPV in a later era you could have a 13C. Park it behind something solid and try for indirect fire would be my suggestion should you ever field one.

With the return of alternate ammunition types, such as Narc, swarm, smoke, semi-guided, FASCAM/thunder and fragmentation, the 7Q  and OW gain a 'soft' upgrade in the clan era. While it's still just 2 medium laser backup and 32KPH cruising speed, the LRMs become a swiss army knife for a number of situations - so long as they've been foreseen. Special munitions in the single ton of LRM 5 ammo should be carefully considered.

The 7V is an more thorough upgrade. The LRM5 are lost, but the upgrades to the 2xLRM20 in the form or Artemis and a ton of ammo each pretty much counter that. While the engine is replaced with an XL, some of the savings go to extra armor. The rest goes to lasers - five MPL mean you don't want to stand right in front of it, and an ER Large matches the short and medium range of the LRMs. The long range bracket can again be fired as long as the ammo lasts, but the medium lasers will blow most of the heat budget by themselves. Looking at the result, I'm reminded less of the 'original' Longbow, and more of a Stalker variant.

Next we have the 8V, a modification of the 7V that removes the LRMs for Arrow IV launchers. The pulse lasers didn't all survive, but eight tons of ammo means that you can carry situational ammo and still launch longer than your spotters are likely to have survived. It is perhaps better compared to the O-Bakemono than other Longbows; in that match-up it's slower but with more armor and still has the ER large for a respectable secondary weapon.

The 12C barely costs more BPV than the 7Q, but the throw weight of the LRMs goes through the roof. Not only are there twenty more tubes, for a total of seventy (2x15, 2x20,) but they're Artemis equipped, and an additional half-minute of ammo has been crowbarred in. What it lost is the medium lasers, as three ER smalls don't form an adequate replacement; two fewer tons of armor over an XL engine are more painful still. This is unquestionably a long-range specialist. The mini looks awesome though, very much an improvement over that of the 7Q

The 12R is less of a one-trick pony, but also probably less capable overall. Jump jets make it the most maneuverable Longbow. A light engine isn't as crippling as the XL and armor is halfway back to original levels. Four standard LRM 15 racks don't bring the pain the pain the same way as the 12C, but the ER large laser from the 7Q makes an appearance. Unfortunately, the 12R isn't sinked well enough to use all five weapons at the same time without overheating badly.

Moving into the age of MMLs we have the 13C. Six MML 7 with Artemis don't equal the long range throw weight of the 12C, but this is a beast you don't want to get close to. All 42 tubes pull double duty, capable of launching SRMs. It's part of the battery and an escort for the 12C at the same time, with a bigger engine bringing it to heavy mech speeds; definitely something to shoot first if you see it moving up, as armor is also heavy and not assault. Despite that, I'm seriously unsure how it costs so many fewer BPV than the original or a 12C

We come to the last normal model, the 14C, which should, IMHO, be a dead end. Not because the armor, which is almost back to 7Q weight. Not because the weapons, as MML 9 do as much damage as an artemis'd MML 7. The problem is that unlike the 12C or 13C, the 14C is under-sinked for it's weapons. Just the MML will heat it up to the point of interfering with subsequent attacks odds; adding the three ER medium lasers will chance it outright shutting down, with significant odds of exploding. If that happens, the XL engine will gut the mech, CASE or no. Remarkably, it manages to produce an offspring, which Kidd talks about below.
 
The 13NAIS is the most deviant of any Longbow configuration. It's the most heavily armored, and back down to assault speed. An interesting bit is the electronics, mounting an ECM and C3 slave. Secondary weapons are between the 12C and 14C, an ER small and two ER medium. What's weird is that there isn't a missile launcher is sight. Six medium-range Light AC5 suggest that the NAIS is supposed to be loaded with precision ammunition and go after fast lighter mechs; I'm going to theorize it as a city-fighter and bodyguard.


TLDR summery - Starts as a slow but improved Archer, moves to become perhaps the inner sphere's premier LRM boat, even above the Salamander. The 7Q is a worthy introtech specialist, the 12C and 13C the best of the upgraded versions.

Here's the MUL link: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=longbow#Tbattlemech

In the event of forum crash or post loss, this post may be restored by any who have it.
« Last Edit: 04 November 2021, 16:12:06 by Greatclub »

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #1 on: 21 July 2018, 03:54:02 »
May I suggest a bit of formatting?
Say, having the variant names at the beginning of their respective paragraphs in bold?
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Kidd

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #2 on: 21 July 2018, 05:00:41 »
Good brief summary, thanks. However some details of each model will be nice. Personally I usually go for movement profile, at least % of armour, number of heat sinks, weapons and ammo, before giving my opinions of the Mech. It's especially helpful to newcomers browsing the MOTWs for ideas.

E.g. the latest variant, LGB-14C2 Longbow is a development of the 14C, and moves 3/5/-, carries about 85% of max armour, 10 DHS and carries 1 ER Medium laser, a C3 Boosted Slave, and 6 MML-9s with 10 tons of ammo, making for about 13 shots each plus a couple of bins for alternate ammo and SRMs for close-in work.

The MML-9s are nice but bulky, and that's probably the source of this model's troubles. It's a very hot Longbow that can't even flush all its missile racks without jumping into double digit heat. It also sticks 4 tons of ammo in the legs and that's bad, before we even go to the point that it's side torsos only have CASE and not CASE 2. Coupled with the XLFE engine this is unfortunately a walking ammo bomb.

Still, good effort, and many thanks for helping us fill out the MOTW directory. Hope you can help with other classic Mechs in need of updating in future.
« Last Edit: 21 July 2018, 05:02:24 by Kidd »

Frabby

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #3 on: 21 July 2018, 14:40:49 »
A few soft points about the Longbow that might be noteworthy:

- Introduced in the Sorenson's Sabres scenario pack (Cedric Sveinson's 'Mech), where it is erroneously described as a 60-tonner but statted as an 85-tonner.

- Didn't have a picture in the scenario pack when it debuted.

- The unseen Longbow image was first printed as background art in some FASA-era book that didn't identify the 'Mech nor mention it anywhere. The same (unseen) art was then used in a TRO-style entry in a non-canon but possibly apocryphal magazine (StarDate?) complete with combat history & notable pilots; that magazine article in turn was included in FanPro's  expanded German edition of TRO:3026. Only after that did the 'Mech get official art associated with it in a canonical source. Surprisingly, it wasn't the original unseen image but a new drawing of the same 'Mech (in TRO:3058).

- Personal opinion, but for me the -0W's extra speed does more for its survival than the armor that was sacrificed. Overall, though, the venerable Archer does the same job better ton-for-ton. (Oh, and it's Zero, not O, for the -0C and -0W variants.)
« Last Edit: 21 July 2018, 14:45:16 by Frabby »
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Minemech

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #4 on: 21 July 2018, 15:25:38 »
 Perhaps its the Free Worlder in me, but I still do not get the logic behind MMLing the Longbow, or Yeoman.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #5 on: 21 July 2018, 15:29:38 »
Stick one in a group with a couple of standards, and suddenly enemies aren't so inclined to bum rush you.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #6 on: 21 July 2018, 15:43:03 »
I was just browsing for mechs to modify and the Longbow is on my purchased list this time around!


Kidd

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #7 on: 21 July 2018, 15:48:51 »
Perhaps its the Free Worlder in me, but I still do not get the logic behind MMLing the Longbow, or Yeoman.
when they come in under the LRM minimum range they'll be just nice for a massive SRM volley, and ideally damaged enough for those SRMs to really start wrecking crits

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #8 on: 21 July 2018, 18:21:04 »
Perhaps its the Free Worlder in me, but I still do not get the logic behind MMLing the Longbow, or Yeoman.

42 SRMs is better than a Light SRM Carrier. That's enough of a deterrent to make most headhunters run for their lives. The loss of long range firepower hurts, but sometimes you need the close range smack down power. I've always found the pure LRM boats to be best in games where you have enough units to form a line to protect them, and MMLs to work better in small games where the fire support is going to get rushed.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #9 on: 21 July 2018, 18:33:23 »
Longbow: Wen you need all the missiles
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garhkal

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #10 on: 22 July 2018, 01:46:27 »
I've often wondered, why they never made a version with quad LRM-15s..  Gives the same tonnage/crits as the two 20 packs and two 5 packs, but gives 10 more missiles down range...
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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #11 on: 22 July 2018, 02:03:48 »
Longbow 12R.  Kinda eyeing that one to mod.

I've often wondered, why they never made a version with quad LRM-15s..  Gives the same tonnage/crits as the two 20 packs and two 5 packs, but gives 10 more missiles down range...

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #12 on: 22 July 2018, 02:13:39 »
The Longbow has always been a fairly simple machine but its good at its job which is just burying people in LRM spam.  Welcome to the Mech of the week writing:D
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VhenRa

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #13 on: 22 July 2018, 03:19:15 »
Also missing the primitive Longbow...

Which is amusingly potentially oversinked.

The Eagle

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #14 on: 22 July 2018, 13:04:37 »
I covered that in my FWLM Age of War article.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #15 on: 22 July 2018, 13:18:15 »
Great article on one of my favorite fire support designs.

The 0W stats didn't thrill me when I first saw Sedricss right in the Sabre's pack, but it was still a cool picture of the Macros Spartan IIRC & I liked the concept.

The 7Q took over as my favorite version of all time once I saw it.   Its just so efficient at what it does.  Nothing but love for it.

The 7V & 12C were both solid, but, its the new 8V model however is a serious contender as my favorite upgraded variant.   Double Arrow Love is a beautiful thing.




I've often wondered, why they never made a version with quad LRM-15s..  Gives the same tonnage/crits as the two 20 packs and two 5 packs, but gives 10 more missiles down range...
I came up with a Quad 15 + Quad ERML + TC variant using DHS that was a Field Refit (D) for the 7V, 11 (or 12) DHS kept it cool running while moving & shooting either of the quad brackets.  It might have had other electronics as well as maxed armor, IDR.

However I'm now working on something that give the 8V-Arrow Treatment to the 7Q chassis & liking that even better than the Quad-15 model.
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Ruger

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #16 on: 22 July 2018, 14:20:51 »
but it was still a cool picture of the Macros Spartan IIRC & I liked the concept.

Point of order: The Macross Spartan was the BattleTech Archer...the BattleTech Longbow was the Macross Phalanx...

I personally love the Longbow, especially the 7Q, 7V, and 8V but I have a model I personally prefer for a LRM-70  version, and believe I could do the LRM-60 a bit better too...the dual Arrow IV too...

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #17 on: 22 July 2018, 14:35:25 »
Point of order: The Macross Spartan was the BattleTech Archer...the BattleTech Longbow was the Macross Phalanx...

The Longbow was the Robotech Spartan.  The Macross Spartan was the Robotech Gladiator which is the Battletech Archer ;)

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #18 on: 22 July 2018, 14:46:21 »
The Longbow was the Robotech Spartan.  The Macross Spartan was the Robotech Gladiator which is the Battletech Archer ;)

In the old Palladium (first edition) RPG. The official modern Robotech uses the Macross nomenclature...

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garhkal

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #19 on: 22 July 2018, 16:04:54 »
Longbow 12R.  Kinda eyeing that one to mod.

Ah..  My eyes didn't notice that, before i commented.. 

I came up with a Quad 15 + Quad ERML + TC variant using DHS that was a Field Refit (D) for the 7V, 11 (or 12) DHS kept it cool running while moving & shooting either of the quad brackets.  It might have had other electronics as well as maxed armor, IDR.
Minus the TC and ER's for the medium lasers, it sounds very similar to a mech i created..
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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #20 on: 23 July 2018, 10:25:16 »
I've often wondered, why they never made a version with quad LRM-15s..  Gives the same tonnage/crits as the two 20 packs and two 5 packs, but gives 10 more missiles down range...
My math doesn’t match yours.  Quad LRM-15s would be 28 tons (7x4).  The current setup is 24(10x2+2x2).
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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #21 on: 23 July 2018, 11:03:43 »
Also missing the primitive Longbow...

Which is amusingly potentially oversinked.
If playing with alternate munitions, it is (IMO) one of the best 'Mechs to field. The 6 tons of ammo are great for deploying thunder mines, swarm, heat-seeking, etc.
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garhkal

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #22 on: 23 July 2018, 15:06:56 »
My math doesn’t match yours.  Quad LRM-15s would be 28 tons (7x4).  The current setup is 24(10x2+2x2).

I was more on about the tonnage when ammo's added in.  At 6 tons of ammo, those LRM 15s have 48 shots between them (at a cost of 32 total tons).
For the LRM-20s + 5s, you'd have to have 7 tons of ammo to get the same, which makes it ONLY 1 ton lighter..  So very comparible..
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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #23 on: 24 July 2018, 07:02:33 »
Greatclub, thanks for stepping in and adding this info. One critique: If possible could you include more explicit weapon descriptions next time? For example:

The basic Longbow, the 7Q is a specialist. It has 50 LRM tubes, ...

How are these launchers divided up? 5xLRM-10? 2xLRM-20 + 1xLRM-10? Makes things a little clearer, especially later when you talk about removing some of the weapons.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #24 on: 24 July 2018, 07:08:14 »
I was more on about the tonnage when ammo's added in.  At 6 tons of ammo, those LRM 15s have 48 shots between them (at a cost of 32 total tons).
For the LRM-20s + 5s, you'd have to have 7 tons of ammo to get the same, which makes it ONLY 1 ton lighter..  So very comparible..

12 rounds per launcher for 2xLRM20+2xLRM5 is only 5 tons...

Anyway, the only Longbow I regularly use isn't a Longbow at all, it's a Rifleman with the ACs and LLs ripped out for twin LRM20s, two SHS, and extra ammo. :)

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #25 on: 24 July 2018, 07:21:08 »
So an Archer.


I like the Longbow.  Partially that's faction pride talking - it's the Mech that has been in serial production within the Free Worlds the longest - but it's also partially a utility issue.  An Archer carries similar throw weight than the base model, but those little LRM-5s shouldn't be chucking for damage, they should be equipped with smoke, Thunder, or some other specialty rounds.

When you get into the later models that switch thr five-racks to fifteen, that's when I start going for pure damage and advocate the specialty stuff being left to other forces.

In other news, I also like my lances to all be the same speed and the Longbow's low speed mates with the Stalker, Atlas, and Awesome: my perfect assault-weight Command & Fire Lance.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #26 on: 24 July 2018, 09:24:29 »
How are these launchers divided up? 5xLRM-10? 2xLRM-20 + 1xLRM-10? Makes things a little clearer, especially later when you talk about removing some of the weapons.

It has 2xLRM-20 + 2xLRM-5, plus a pair of Medium Lasers.

Greatclub

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #27 on: 25 July 2018, 16:21:43 »
I was just browsing for mechs to modify and the Longbow is on my purchased list this time around!

That's a complement.

I've made a couple minor improvements. I'm not going to go into much finer detail in the writeup, but I added some stuff that was needed and did some formatting
« Last Edit: 25 July 2018, 20:34:57 by Greatclub »

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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #28 on: 31 July 2018, 01:08:31 »
I feel like mentioning that the original (non-primitive) version is actually the 0W, not the 7Q. The 7Q was developed eighty years later to address the limitations of the 0W. So the 0W doesn't take off armor to increase speed, the 7Q slows down to increase armor.   ;)

And one of the reasons that's worth mentioning is because it (retroactively) makes perfect sense once you factor in the primitive 0C model. You see, we all recognize that the 0W* has super thin armor for an introductory level assault, but its armor level is identical to the original primitive version, and not terribly worse (and occasionally better) than most of its primitive contemporaries. You can see the train of thought where the engineers figure its existing armor levels are good enough and decide it's better to use all this brand new technology to make it more mobile, then decide that maybe this wasn't as good an idea as they thought once the Longbow had to consistently compete against other modern designs.

*As a tangent, some small part of me is slightly annoyed by the existence of the primitive 0C version, since this earlier model makes the obvious pun model number of LGB-0W canonically not intentional, or at least less intentional.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Longbow
« Reply #29 on: 31 July 2018, 08:39:18 »
I never was a Longbow fan- I didn't have the books it was in for a long time, and so my intro to it personally was '58. It was dumpy, ugly, and really wasn't much of a step up over the Archer- so why bother at all? Hell, by that point I had options around like the Salamander that outperformed it nicely, screw the Longbow. I was AWARE of the old 0W, but never used one.

Then Project Phoenix came along. And I stopped ignoring Longbows.

Let's be real, the LGB-12C is a ****** terror. When you throw 70 missiles every ten seconds, you mean business. The Viking can match it and that's really about it unless you go over to Clan tech (which obviously is hard to compare here)- and Vikings are pretty hard to come by outside the FRR/Comguards. It's surprisingly tough, it bombards you with the kind of rain that few units can match... those ERSLs are basically afterthoughts to keep it from being as derided as the Yeoman ended up being. (I'd love to pull them for an AMS, or at least two of them for an SPL or flamer). It's a monster and deserves every bit of respect it demands.

Side note, my miniature collection stands in the high-hundreds, and it all started with a green and brown Longbow 12C. It's still painted exactly as it was when it was finished, thick Testors model paint and all. Most everything else I did back then has been stripped and redone, I even have a couple of other Longbows as well now (including one in Ronin colors that I'm really happy with), but that one stands as a monument to how far I've come on the hobby- it's nice to look over at it when i'm struggling and remember how bad I was back then vs. what I do now.
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