Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master  (Read 47862 times)

Moonsword

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Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« on: 01 October 2012, 16:59:06 »
Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master

Sorry for the intermission.  I needed the time off - it's been a long month.  Hopefully, next time I need to knock off for a bit, I'll have someone else ready to take over.

The Savannah Master is one of the smallest and fastest combat vehicles in the game,  Introduced to the game by TRO3026 and to the LCAF in 3026, the Savannah Master's core is the miniscule supply of Omni 25 fusion engines discovered by the JumpShip Winnetka in 3024 and claimed by Warrant Officer Lewis.  He used them to devise a design in response to Katrina Steiner's solicitation of vehicles for screening and reconnaissance duties and able to defeat a Locust in three out of four solo engagements.  After a demonstration against Locust pilot Savannah Johnston, the design earned its name from the drubbing it gave her in testing and entered service with the LCAF whether certain commanders liked it or not.  During the Fourth Succession War, the design proved its value against the DCMS, a success sometimes attributed to AFFS advisers.  Somehow, the Big MAC had gotten their hands on a shipment, and McCarron's Armored Cavalry proceeded to hand the AFFS a few lessons of their own in Savannah Master operations during the Fourth Succession War.

Savannah Masters are tiny, only 5 tons, smaller than your typical escape pod and half the size of the standard APCs used by the Successor States.  Fusion power might be an extravagance but it's one the Savannah Master puts to good use - a blistering 216 kph flank speed would be achievable with an ICE (the Ferret's Tyson 25 ICE is the same weight as the Savannah Master's Omni 25 SFE) but the weapons load wouldn't be.  Just a single Defiance B3M medium laser that takes up a full 20% of the design's weight load all by itself but it provides a reasonable punch at a reasonable range for the Savannah Master.  The armor is sufficient for a 5 ton design, 1.5 tons of Durallex Light arranged 10/6/2.  Considering that you have 13 MPs to burn even if you stick to cruise speeds, you can probably manage not to point your rear at the enemy.  Other than that, it's actually tougher than a hover APC, twice the coverage on the front.  (Somehow, I don't think the guys in the back of the hover APCs find that a comforting comparison...)

S. L. Lewis had experimented early on with a testbed design using two small lasers instead of the medium but found the range was just too short.  Other than that, the design of the Savannah Master was stable for several decades, even through the FedCom Civil War that saw S. L. Lewis refuse sales to the AFFS, although they honored their service contracts.  (This would later lead to one of the most epic cases of scope creep for a design I can think of when the AFFS tried to replace it with the Fox.)  I suspect the lack of the obvious ERML swap has to do with the 50% increase in price.  TAG and a C3 slave are other simple one ton options; again, neither one has been followed up on.  The variant that finally emerged was the Savannah Master (Interdictor), one of several variants in TRO3085's Old is the New New section to follow that general theme of stuffing in ECM.  Okay, so you got one ton from the ML, and this isn't a mixed tech unit, so where's the half-ton coming from?  There's only one place tonnage can from on this design: Armor.  One ton of HFF is as good as it gets for maxing armor values out but at 8/5/1, we're down to 19 points.  IS MPLs are now a lethal side threat and an IS LPL or any of the increasing number of weapons that can hand out a 10 point hit is a guaranteed one shot kill.  Since a lot of those weapons are remarkably popular, that's not a good recipe for your health.  And trust me, the less you think about that rear armor, the happier you'll be.  How survivable is it?  The answer, surprisingly, is “not as bad as you think”.  They're not armed and unlike TAG or C3, ECM isn't necessarily a priority target, especially if the enemy isn't badly affected.  And then there's ghost targets - combine that with a Savannah Master's speed and you're talking about to-hit numbers that can be nearly imposible.  There's enough armor that Spheroids, at least, still have to commit a reasonably heavy weapon unless the Interdictor is in MPL range to guarantee a one-shot kill even on the sides.

If you have them, Savannah Masters are your fingertips.  They're not the armored fist.  That's what Falconers, Blitzkriegs, and Manteuffels are for.  Savannah Masters are a tool for a commander to get an idea what's out in the vast expanses and lay a few hits on it.  As scouts, spotters, and light skirmishers, the SM's staggering speed is invaluable and it has just enough armor to be able to survive tangling with infantry or light armored units as long as the pilot prudently withdraws after his armor picks up more than a few scrapes.  You've got less firepower than some individual assault suits (or heavy suits) and less armor than your typical BA squad manages to boast.  Tough for a 5 ton vehicle?  The Savannah Master is that.  Being able to survive a PPC hit - once - on the vehicle's front armor is impressive.  But that doesn't make it all that tough in the grand scheme of things (like the way an IS LL or Clan medium can blow the side straight off) so don't get cocky.  Use slashing attacks in open terrain, don't get sucked into tight quarters, and if you've got a reason to suspect (or know) that a particular unit has pulse lasers, don't engage it in their arc.  Also, from a good sportsmanship/not getting beaten in the parking lot perspective, don't just spam them.  Most players don't find that a fun game even if they do have the tools to deal with it (see below).  If you have both of the major varieties available, mix a few Interdictors in to provide ECM cover or to swamp the field in ghost targets for the kind of To-Hit numbers that inspire hate and loathing.

Okay, so you've got Savannah Masters on the board against you.  How do you put them down?  Well, accuracy is at a premium when Savannah Masters get some room to work in, even more than it is against most light, fast units.  Fortunately, they're short-ranged, so they're obliged to get into arm's reach - you may get a little singed but pulse lasers can be brought to bear.  LPLs will take anything but the front out and will severely weaken the forward armor.  So will medium VSPLs at short or medum range.  (Against Interdictors, LPLs will blow them straight to whatever hell is reserved for the hotshots who pilot vehicles like this against giant robots.  So will a medium VSPL at short range.)  If they get into the killing ground of medium range - say, 4-9 hexes - bring any decently heavy weapon that will bear and has decent numbers.  You may not get a better opportunity.  Clan opponents have a bit easier job thanks to their more powerful, longer-ranged tools but the basics apply to both tech bases.  If you have them, area effect weapons are a useful trick - Thumper Cannons or an LRM 20 full of MCMs might get lucky and smack the back armor while an LTC will put a serious crimp in the Savannah Master's style.  In fact, with an LTC or cluster bombs, if I had good odds of putting the shot where I wanted to, I'd think strongly about planting it behind the Savannah Master for a better shot at the rear armor.  Otherwise, look at the terrain - pull into places where the Savannah Masters are going to burn MPs heavily.  Trees may just keep them away, period, but gentle, sloping hills that force them to either turn constantly (and keep their speed down or bury themselves in the hillside on a botch) or eat the 3 MP cost of an elevation change (remember, vehicles pay +2 MP, not +1 like 'Mechs) will help a lot in forcing the TMMs down to something you can handle.  These are terrors (well, really annoying, at least...) on the open plains so don't fight there.

References: The Master Unit List is an excellent first stop.  You may also want to visit CamoSpecs.
« Last Edit: 01 October 2012, 18:18:36 by Moonsword »

Diablo48

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #1 on: 01 October 2012, 17:23:49 »
Another good IS counter would be the Snub-Nosed PPC.  Even though it does not get a targeting bonus, the hover is obliged to get into short range if it wants to hit at all so it will probably stack up well enough against IS Pulse Lasers which are going to have trouble getting a shot at short range.  It also does not do well against better pilots like most light units, so dealing with Clanners will be doubly problematic due to their superior skills.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #2 on: 01 October 2012, 17:39:19 »
After a demonstration against Locust pilot Samantha Johnston...

Samantha? Wasn't her name Savannah? ???

chanman

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #3 on: 01 October 2012, 22:00:10 »
I think you could turn one of these into a recreational WiGE. The fact that it'd outrun most canon WiGEs is just icing

SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #4 on: 01 October 2012, 22:30:39 »
What where the original engine supply likely from? A 25 rating isn't something you're going to see in a 'Mech

Diablo48

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #5 on: 01 October 2012, 22:42:56 »
What where the original engine supply likely from? A 25 rating isn't something you're going to see in a 'Mech

I do not recall there being a canon explanation, but I would guess they were intended for civilian vehicles, small scale local power generators for remote installations, or emergency power supplies.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #6 on: 01 October 2012, 22:46:42 »
You could technically fit as 25-rated fusion engine in a 25 tonner moving 1/2, but those are... well pretty much non-existant.  I could see a couple kinds of Industrial 'Mechs using one of those, but it wouldn't be for combat use, not by a long shot.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #7 on: 01 October 2012, 22:53:37 »
I do not recall there being a canon explanation, but I would guess they were intended for civilian vehicles, small scale local power generators for remote installations, or emergency power supplies.

From the original TRO: 3026:
" Two years ago, the Winnetka's crew discovered a large Star League supply facility on an uninhabited Periphery world. They dumped their cargo of Botany Bay Industrial Sand and loaded all their Dropships with every piece of equipment they could find.

The recovered salvage was split among the crew. As part of his share, Warrant Officer Lewis requested and received the small fusion plants found at the depot. Unlike the rest of the crew, he did not sell his share to the highest bidder and retire. Instead, he held onto the fusion plants.
"

Samantha? Wasn't her name Savannah? ???

From TRO: 3026 again:
"The Locust's MechWarrior was Savannah Johnson, a veteran pilot with many kills."
Cowdragon:
I'm going to type up your response, print it, fold it in half, and look at it like a I would a centerfold. THAT's how sexy your answer was.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #8 on: 01 October 2012, 22:58:09 »
I think you could turn one of these into a recreational WiGE. The fact that it'd outrun most canon WiGEs is just icing

There is a civvie version in VA, by the same company too.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #9 on: 01 October 2012, 22:58:39 »
From the original TRO: 3026:
" Two years ago, the Winnetka's crew discovered a large Star League supply facility on an uninhabited Periphery world. They dumped their cargo of Botany Bay Industrial Sand and loaded all their Dropships with every piece of equipment they could find.

The recovered salvage was split among the crew. As part of his share, Warrant Officer Lewis requested and received the small fusion plants found at the depot. Unlike the rest of the crew, he did not sell his share to the highest bidder and retire. Instead, he held onto the fusion plants.
"

While this explains where they were found, it doesn't explain what they were supposed to be used for, which is the real mystery.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #10 on: 01 October 2012, 23:10:32 »
It's the Star League. They could originally be space heaters for all we know. The only reason I'm ruling out their use in children's toys is that these particular reactors are bit tad big to power a speak-and-spell.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #11 on: 02 October 2012, 00:12:23 »
There is a civvie version in VA, by the same company too.

A hover bus and a hover car that goes 15/23 it looks like

Alexander Knight

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #12 on: 02 October 2012, 00:16:30 »
Ahhhhh, the Savannah Master.  It's the Thrush for groundpounders.  >:D

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #13 on: 02 October 2012, 00:18:02 »
It's the Star League. They could originally be space heaters for all we know. The only reason I'm ruling out their use in children's toys is that these particular reactors are bit tad big to power a speak-and-spell.
How about powering those 'toy' 'Mechs MW candidates have to make move?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #14 on: 02 October 2012, 01:11:37 »
Always a classic choice, and definatly one of the best bang for the tonnage unit in the game, even including Clan tech and so on.  Even if you had a super-cyborg in a Fire Moth D, four level 1 Savannah Masters would look very tempting just the same, being faster and with more armor.

For what ever reason, they always seem to be deployed in swarms.  Perhaps because they're very effective in swarms, but its fairly rare to see just one.

As to veriants, of course the ER model is nice, though honestly if I was spending my own money on it I wouldn't bother since its so damn fast that getting into range and dodging return fire are fairly easy.  I'd spend it if I had to pilot the thing, maybe.  The C3 is also nice, and the AP makes a lot of sense, even if its not overly useful in games.  The Interdictor, however, seems problematic, and unless I was really fed up with C3 useage, I'd leave it at home.  Though an ultimate HFF/ERML veriant would be tasty, or revisiting the twin SL idea with ERs.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #15 on: 02 October 2012, 01:35:51 »
They need an upgrade equipment item that the driver can push to de-magnetize the hull...

dessert terrain... full speed ahead... Fa Shih's attached to the hull... suddenly your 5 ton piece of militiatech can hurl four to six crude, flailing and screaming gauss slugs (filled with mines no less) your way  ;D
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #16 on: 02 October 2012, 01:59:25 »
Samantha? Wasn't her name Savannah? ???
Perhaps he is thinking of Samantha Jones? That's Freudian.

Diablo48

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #17 on: 02 October 2012, 03:50:54 »
Always a classic choice, and definatly one of the best bang for the tonnage unit in the game, even including Clan tech and so on.  Even if you had a super-cyborg in a Fire Moth D, four level 1 Savannah Masters would look very tempting just the same, being faster and with more armor.

For what ever reason, they always seem to be deployed in swarms.  Perhaps because they're very effective in swarms, but its fairly rare to see just one.

Honestly, they are so cheap you may as well buy at least a lance if you are ordering them, one recon hover does not really do you a whole lot of good on its own, and nothing else can keep up with it so it makes sense for them to be used together.

Quote
As to veriants, of course the ER model is nice, though honestly if I was spending my own money on it I wouldn't bother since its so damn fast that getting into range and dodging return fire are fairly easy.  I'd spend it if I had to pilot the thing, maybe.  The C3 is also nice, and the AP makes a lot of sense, even if its not overly useful in games.  The Interdictor, however, seems problematic, and unless I was really fed up with C3 useage, I'd leave it at home.  Though an ultimate HFF/ERML veriant would be tasty, or revisiting the twin SL idea with ERs.

The other variant I think would be useful would be a Flamer (or ER Flamer if you have those lying around) to add some utility to your force.  You might also be able to get some work out of a SPL (or SXPL) variant as a compromise between anti-infantry and anti-'Mech work, although I think the Flamer will still do a better job due to its incredible utility.  Twin RL-10's would also be an option for a fast strike unit, but you would really be better off with a more conventional powerplant at that point.  You could also get some use out of a small cargo bay for infantry, but at that point you may as well start looking at the existing APCs.

On the other hand I think a C3 configuration will get scrapped to quickly to really contribute much to the fight due to how popular C3 spotters are, and I am really not convinced it would be worth taking one of your limited network slots if you are not counting BV.  It might become semi-viable in a company-sized network where you would still have room for the other rolls, but anything that takes a C3 company to bring down will almost certainly have ways to make the little hover pop the first time it tries to spot.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #18 on: 02 October 2012, 04:06:23 »
[size=78%]For what ever reason, they always seem to be deployed in swarms.  Perhaps because they're very effective in swarms, but its fairly rare to see just one.[/size]


I haven't used these much but think that they gain some degree of protection as a force of 4 fast medium laser boats by appearing as a swarm as opposed to individually... I would envisage an in-universe reasoning being that they scatter to find the enemy then consolidate to attack
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #19 on: 02 October 2012, 04:11:52 »
Honestly, they are so cheap you may as well buy at least a lance if you are ordering them, one recon hover does not really do you a whole lot of good on its own, and nothing else can keep up with it so it makes sense for them to be used together.
You can get more then a lance of these for the price of a Locust, this sort of area is where 'Mechs aren't actually kings of the battlefield

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #20 on: 02 October 2012, 04:47:55 »
There was a quite long thread on the ground combat board about taking a star of light clan mechs against 36 SMs on flat terrain. The general conclusion was that if you used optimized customs the clanners could win.

Essentially, you needed 175 tons of clan mechs to beat 180 tons of SW-era IS vehicles... ::)

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #21 on: 02 October 2012, 05:11:08 »
Essentially, you needed 175 tons of clan mechs to beat 180 tons of SW-era IS vehicles... ::)
175 tons of optimized Clan 'Mechs to take out 180 tons of general SW-era IS vehicles...

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #22 on: 02 October 2012, 05:47:00 »
175 tons of optimized Clan 'Mechs to take out 180 tons of general SW-era IS vehicles...
Well, the SM is about as optimized as SW-era vehicles goes... The only way it could be worse is if it was a VTOL! :D

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #23 on: 02 October 2012, 06:45:38 »
You can get more then a lance of these for the price of a Locust, this sort of area is where 'Mechs aren't actually kings of the battlefield

Isn't that more like a company of them at the prize of a Locust? Or are Locusts cheaper than i remember?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #24 on: 02 October 2012, 08:05:58 »
Perhaps because they're very effective in swarms, but its fairly rare to see just one.

Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #25 on: 02 October 2012, 11:49:31 »
I seem to remember that during the last rules edition some consideredSavannah Master -squadrons as good BA hunters. How is it these days? Are new BAs too much to SM?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #26 on: 02 October 2012, 12:36:07 »
Maybe against older suits armed primarily with SLs and other short-ranged stuff. A Savannah Master could play the range game against them, dashing to 3 hexes and fire at short range, while they had to deal with long-range modifiers in addition to the S-M's speed. Newer suits? Not so much, I think.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #27 on: 02 October 2012, 15:48:22 »
Artillery pissing you off? Send in the Savvies- guaranteed to make life hell for enemy artillery positions. You can't hit the damned things with the shells, and your defensive weapons are going to have a hell of a time doing it as well. A group of slashing Savvies can ruin an Shamash works even better. Are you SL? Gabriels.)

I recently had a player use them another unexpected way- you can't move through a hex containing an enemy unit, right? Surrounding my Schiltron with four Savvies (and a tall cliff covering the other two hex sides) meant I was forced to not move- and in doing so, the Schiltron was toast. Miserable experience!
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #28 on: 02 October 2012, 16:03:45 »
Artillery pissing you off? Send in the Savvies- guaranteed to make life hell for enemy artillery positions. You can't hit the damned things with the shells, and your defensive weapons are going to have a hell of a time doing it as well. A group of slashing Savvies can ruin an Shamash works even better. Are you SL? Gabriels.)

I am not really sold on this one.  All you have to do is set the artillery pieces to direct fire mode and laugh manically as you ignore the TMMs.  Your escorts should also be packing Pulse Lasers because the biggest threat to artillery is always fast movers, so that adds another major layer of risk to the operation as well.


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #29 on: 02 October 2012, 16:22:37 »
I recently had a player use them another unexpected way- you can't move through a hex containing an enemy unit, right? Surrounding my Schiltron with four Savvies (and a tall cliff covering the other two hex sides) meant I was forced to not move- and in doing so, the Schiltron was toast. Miserable experience!

On the other hand, a guy filled me with the strongest urge to date to drag him into the parking lot and lungpunch him by doing the same thing to my entire battleforce using infantry squads, in a BMR-rules game. I'll admit, he was pulling out every trick in the book, including insisting on 20-minute-long rules arguments in every phase of every turn, so I probably can't blame that tactic alone on that.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #30 on: 02 October 2012, 17:21:23 »
On the other hand, a guy filled me with the strongest urge to date to drag him into the parking lot and lungpunch him by doing the same thing to my entire battleforce using infantry squads, in a BMR-rules game. I'll admit, he was pulling out every trick in the book, including insisting on 20-minute-long rules arguments in every phase of every turn, so I probably can't blame that tactic alone on that.

Yeeeah, that's not someone to game with. Ick.

Mine was a legit move by one of my longtime local gamers who saw an opportunity and lunged at it before I could get out of the trap (we had other units that needed to move first).
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #31 on: 02 October 2012, 17:27:51 »
Yeah, that one sounds legit(and evil >:D) to me.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #32 on: 02 October 2012, 17:28:19 »
Just hang outside of single-turn flight range.  For Arrow IV, you can just park a paltry 20 hexes or so away, and then sprint to be RIGHT THERE and the enemy can't do anything about it.  Oh, sure, they're going to kill the hover, but it'll be a dangerous proposition.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #33 on: 02 October 2012, 19:43:16 »
On the other hand, a guy filled me with the strongest urge to date to drag him into the parking lot and lungpunch him by doing the same thing to my entire battleforce using infantry squads, in a BMR-rules game. I'll admit, he was pulling out every trick in the book, including insisting on 20-minute-long rules arguments in every phase of every turn, so I probably can't blame that tactic alone on that.

Talk about a suitable situation for calling in artillery on your own position

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #34 on: 02 October 2012, 19:49:35 »
Talk about a suitable situation for calling in artillery on your own position

With Weirdo? Probably the safest place to be is right where he's aiming.  #P

(All in good fun, my friend! :D)
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #35 on: 02 October 2012, 21:01:43 »
Maybe not. If I keep pestering him, Chunga may finally let me start shooting myself. Then where will you be?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #36 on: 02 October 2012, 21:31:13 »
Savanna Masters- because sometimes, your Urbie needs roller skates.

Maybe not. If I keep pestering him, Chunga may finally let me start shooting myself. Then where will you be?

between wierdo and hellbie, i'm fairly certain the mods have the makings of the greatest slapstick/genocide comedy duo of all time.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #37 on: 02 October 2012, 21:37:22 »
We'd be like the Animaniacs, if we can get MadCap to be our Dot.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #38 on: 02 October 2012, 21:38:15 »
Reference to the Master the Savannah thread reminded me; your average clan warrior probably hates the silly things. Nothing says "I spit in the face of Zellbrigen" like a Savannah Swarm, and, frustratingly, they will have a heck of a time running them down. And when they do it's "Artillery: Incoming" time, most likely, or an ambush by slow movers who have been maneuvering with the help of the hovers.

ISTM that the Savannah Master is the embodiment of everything Wrong with the Inner Sphere way of war.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #39 on: 02 October 2012, 21:39:18 »
ISTM that the Savannah Master is the embodiment of everything Wrong with the Inner Sphere way of war.

This sentiment. I agree with it.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #40 on: 02 October 2012, 22:05:11 »
Maybe not. If I keep pestering him, Chunga may finally let me start shooting myself. Then where will you be?

"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #41 on: 02 October 2012, 22:20:21 »
I recently had a player use them another unexpected way- you can't move through a hex containing an enemy unit, right? Surrounding my Schiltron with four Savvies (and a tall cliff covering the other two hex sides) meant I was forced to not move- and in doing so, the Schiltron was toast. Miserable experience!
TW, pg. 57, stacking, it's legal for units from different sides to occupy the same hex so you could have moved into the hex one of the SM's was in turn 1 and then next turn hopefully moved away from them

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #42 on: 03 October 2012, 14:33:22 »
TW, pg. 57, stacking, it's legal for units from different sides to occupy the same hex so you could have moved into the hex one of the SM's was in turn 1 and then next turn hopefully moved away from them

In which case I'm only moving one hex- which means I'm not gaining anything from it except to bump my to-hit numbers by using my cruise speed. And the next turn I'm just going to get surrounded again. My plan, therefore, was to park it and try to get rid of a Savvie or two and see if that helped any.

I'm familiar with the games rules- I just got caught in a trap. Moving one hex would have accomplished very little.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #43 on: 03 October 2012, 23:16:04 »

I recently had a player use them another unexpected way- you can't move through a hex containing an enemy unit, right? Surrounding my Schiltron with four Savvies (and a tall cliff covering the other two hex sides) meant I was forced to not move- and in doing so, the Schiltron was toast. Miserable experience!

How can that meet the reasonableness test?

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #44 on: 03 October 2012, 23:22:16 »
It's more reasonable than the people who see small fast units like these as little more than guided missiles...
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #45 on: 04 October 2012, 16:08:15 »
Survivability of those things is imo pretty high. I fielded a lot of them in Planetary Militias. They get the job done and are cheap.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #46 on: 04 October 2012, 16:43:54 »
Regarding the usefulness of the 25 SFE, here is a list (missing only WiGEs) on the types of units capable of using one (I compiled the list a few years back when I was stuck in a hospital room with a laptop and no internet connection... luckily I had my trusty BMR with me...).

I post the list here rather than in the construction forums because (aside from a comment or two) I make no attempt here at construction and the table might serve to fuel speculation on what the cache was for.


Fully Legal uses for the 25-rated engine:

'mech:     25 ton  1/2  MP

tracked:   25 ton  1/2  MP
tracked:    5 ton  5/8  MP
tracked:    1 ton 25/38 MP – using fractional accounting only

wheeled:   35 ton  1/2  MP
wheeled:    7 ton  5/8  MP
wheeled:    5 ton  7/11 MP
wheeled:    1 ton 35/53 MP – using fractional accounting only

hover:     50 ton* 5/8  MP – engine weighs 10 tons regardless of type
hover:     38 ton* 5/8  MP – engine weighs 8 tons regardless of type
hover:     29 ton* 5/8  MP – engine weighs 6 tons regardless of type
hover:     20 ton* 5/8  MP – engine weighs 4 tons regardless of type
hover:      5 ton 14/21 MP – (Savannah Master)
hover:      1 ton 55/83 MP – using fractional accounting only

VTOL:      11 ton 10/15 MP
VTOL:       5 ton 15/23 MP – (Ferret)
VTOL:       1 ton 65/98 MP – using fractional accounting only

naval:     45 ton  1/2  MP
naval:      9 ton  5/8  MP
naval:      5 ton  9/14 MP
naval:      1 ton 45/68 MP – using fractional accounting only

hydrofoil: 99 ton  5/8  MP
hydrofoil: 90 ton  5/8  MP
hydrofoil: 45 ton  6/9  MP
hydrofoil: 35 ton  6/9  MP
hydrofoil: 15 ton  8/12 MP
hydrofoil: 12 ton 10/15 MP
hydrofoil:  5 ton 15/23 MP
hydrofoil:  3 ton 25/38 MP
hydrofoil:  1 ton 75/113MP – using fractional accounting only (1,220.4kph: 16.3kph shy speed of sound)

ASF:       25 ton  3/5  MP – DJ&JS Small Craft/Shuttles use ASF construction rules
ASF:        5 ton  7/11 MP

Conv.Ftr.: 25 ton  1/2  MP – Conceptually useful as an air-launched glider
Conv.Ftr.:  5 ton  5/8  MP


Caveat: I have found minor errors in other parts of the master table, so check numbers for yourself to guarantee accuracy.
If I missed any applications, or you have compiled WiGE applications... or if you locate any errors, please let me know so I can amend the table.




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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #47 on: 04 October 2012, 17:43:32 »
You only used a suspension factor of 10 for wheeled vehicles, it should be 20... :) And the SM moves 13/20, not 14/21.

Just from vehicles I've built (thought most of them are ICE) I can add tracked 8 ton at 3/5, wheeled 15 ton at 3/5, and wheeled 9 tons at 5/8.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #48 on: 04 October 2012, 18:02:39 »
I like the idea of a 9 ton 5/8 boat. It'd make a nice light harbor patrol boat, and dice knows the full spread of the Star League probably had a lot of harbors...
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #49 on: 04 October 2012, 21:09:13 »
It's more reasonable than the people who see small fast units like these as little more than guided missiles...
Now I see a tactical use of SMs cruising for 12 hexes, making six turns in a tight donut around the target.  Do something like the Indian riders circling an impromptu wagon-fort and keeping them penned in.  Just do that with a half-dozen SMs...

...and pray they miss a kick...
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #50 on: 04 October 2012, 22:10:32 »
I like the idea of a 9 ton 5/8 boat. It'd make a nice light harbor patrol boat, and dice knows the full spread of the Star League probably had a lot of harbors...

That was my thought as well, along with the 12 or 15 ton hydrofoil for interception work.  In fact, I can easily see a pair of boats being designed to share the same small engine with the little harbor patrol boat making up the bulk of the fleet for day-to-day work and a handful of bigger, faster, and better armed hydrofoils in case of emergencies.  You could also use the 90 and 99 ton hydrofoils as fast ferries, although I feel like it would make more sense to use a fuel cell than an independent fusion plant for this because they are probably not going to need the independent operations or energy weapons of the patrol boats.

The other real uses I see are the 5 and 11 ton VTOLs which would be useful for military recon work or, more likely, civilian vehicles intended for extended operations in remote areas or long endurance flight.

Now I see a tactical use of SMs cruising for 12 hexes, making six turns in a tight donut around the target.  Do something like the Indian riders circling an impromptu wagon-fort and keeping them penned in.  Just do that with a half-dozen SMs...

...and pray they miss a kick...

That is only covering 6 hexes a turn so you will be easy prey for their weapons.  A better strategy is to only plan on pinning something for one turn so you can dart into position with good defensive mods and then bail out the next turn.  When used strategically this can pin an enemy in a very bad place and potentially set you up for a kill without sacrificing your hovers (or at least not many of them).


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #51 on: 05 October 2012, 04:47:07 »
That is only covering 6 hexes a turn so you will be easy prey for their weapons.  A better strategy is to only plan on pinning something for one turn so you can dart into position with good defensive mods and then bail out the next turn.  When used strategically this can pin an enemy in a very bad place and potentially set you up for a kill without sacrificing your hovers (or at least not many of them).
You use multiple sets of SM's to hold them in place before the arty arrives

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #52 on: 05 October 2012, 04:50:40 »
You use multiple sets of SM's to hold them in place before the arty arrives

So when the little bugs flee from around your feet, it's time to duck and cover?  ;D
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #53 on: 05 October 2012, 12:24:06 »
How can that meet the reasonableness test?

"Command, you want me to do WHAT with my lance, to that monster?!? WE"RE A RECON DEPLOYMENT!!!"

"Rush in there and use your air skirts to bump him in place, so our big guns can shoot in your direction soldier!"

If you realize that most SM pilots have got to be similar in mindset to WW I fighter pilots (I'm going to fly over an active battlefield in nothing by balsa and canvas and shoot at other planes equipped the same way), then it makes more sense.

These guys have got to be half lunatic to even get into the cockpit. Circling an assault tank at a hundred kilometers an hour makes perfect, if twisted, sense.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #54 on: 06 October 2012, 04:32:27 »
These guys have got to be half lunatic to even get into the cockpit. Circling an assault tank at a hundred kilometers an hour makes perfect, if twisted, sense.
J. Edgars is still better for that job
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #55 on: 06 October 2012, 06:42:03 »
If you realize that most SM pilots have got to be similar in mindset to WW I fighter pilots (I'm going to fly over an active battlefield in nothing by balsa and canvas and shoot at other planes equipped the same way), then it makes more sense.

These guys have got to be half lunatic to even get into the cockpit. Circling an assault tank at a hundred kilometers an hour makes perfect, if twisted, sense.

I don't like your analogy. Back then, it was flying man! something new, amazing and fantastic.

Also, there weren't really anti-aircraft guns to worry about. Your worry from the ground was more rifle shots unless you were unlucky enough to be in the path of an artillery shell. Even those planes move pretty fast.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #56 on: 06 October 2012, 12:58:39 »
Ack-Ack, Pom-pom, Archie. AA guns proliferated in WW1 pretty quickly.

Life expectancy for WW1 fighter pilots was shorter than even infantry. As I vaguely recall, the median being around 2 weeks, so insane might be a good word for it.

Then and again, in the 19th century and earlier, they often didn't have trouble at all manning the Forlorn hope either

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #57 on: 06 October 2012, 13:29:01 »
Ack-Ack, Pom-pom, Archie. AA guns proliferated in WW1 pretty quickly.

Life expectancy for WW1 fighter pilots was shorter than even infantry. As I vaguely recall, the median being around 2 weeks, so insane might be a good word for it.

Then and again, in the 19th century and earlier, they often didn't have trouble at all manning the Forlorn hope either

Precisely. WW I pilots lives were measured in hours. If you made it past your first few engagements, you might gain a little life expectancy.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #58 on: 06 October 2012, 15:44:51 »
You only used a suspension factor of 10 for wheeled vehicles, it should be 20... :)

Hm... on all of them?

Dang.  [metalhealth]

Quote
And the SM moves 13/20, not 14/21.

Y'know, I actually changed that at the last moment when I peeked at the SM's fluff speeds instead of the crunchy speeds.

That'll learn me to not double check!  [blank]

Quote
Just from vehicles I've built (thought most of them are ICE) I can add tracked 8 ton at 3/5, wheeled 15 ton at 3/5, and wheeled 9 tons at 5/8.

At rating 10-25, vehicular ICE, SFE and XLE all weigh the same: 1 ton... of course, that's not taking into account fractional accounting.

Technically, it's "4% overpowered" for the tracked chassis...
« Last Edit: 06 October 2012, 15:47:45 by Fireangel »

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #59 on: 06 October 2012, 16:53:43 »
Precisely. WW I pilots lives were measured in hours. If you made it past your first few engagements, you might gain a little life expectancy.

IIRC During the Battle of Britain new pilots were pretty much just as dead on british side. Not supprising as they might have only a few dozen flight hours in their fighters and they were fighting against much more experienced Germans.

BTW. Mention of WW1 fighter pilot life-expectancy reminds me about certain character in Blackadder -series.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #60 on: 06 October 2012, 17:12:16 »
While some of the pilots only had very rudimentary training, they had several things in their favour.

1) WW2 planes were more durable and generally better protected - armoured windscreens and seats to protect the pilot.
2) In the Battle of Britain, both sides used a lot of machine guns and fewer cannons compared to later in WW2, so the armour was relatively more effective
3) Unlike in WW1, WW2 pilots wore parachutes
4) The state of knowledge of flight was generally more advanced, so I would make the arguement that Spitfires and Hurricanes are much less treacherous than Sopwith Pups and Fokkers
5) British pilots flew over friendly territory where medical aid was much closer than over the moonscape of the trenches
6) As planes became more advanced, much fewer were flown/fewer pilots were needed. The production rates for WW1 fighters is simply staggering
7) German fighter pilots over the UK were extremely fuel-constrained, so had fairly deliberate objectives: Fighter sweep, escort bombers, etc.. They didn't simply prowl around looking for random air patrols to ambush like happened in WW1
8) Radar and the rest of the air defence network infrastructure and better C&C in general, as well as the proliferation of radios generally gives WW2 pilots a degree of situational awareness not possible in WW1

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #61 on: 18 October 2012, 16:54:35 »
Now I see a tactical use of SMs cruising for 12 hexes, making six turns in a tight donut around the target.  Do something like the Indian riders circling an impromptu wagon-fort and keeping them penned in.  Just do that with a half-dozen SMs...

...and pray they miss a kick...

Gabriels ......

I like to mix them in with my SM's........

Let the SM's rush in, and split off left and right, while the Gabriels rush past with their turrets aimed at the rear....  works especially well with the Marian version Gabriels...... rockets to the back armor.

I am surprised we haven't seen a version of the SM with twin Rocket 10 packs.....

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #62 on: 18 October 2012, 17:03:51 »
I still want to see a Savannah Master (or Gabriel) IIC with a heavy medium.  Ofc, it'd have to be a Horse unit if they ever wanted to hit anything.
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sandstorm

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #63 on: 19 October 2012, 00:58:34 »
Not necessarily, ArkWar... Gabriel IIC built by either the Bears or the WiE could have actually useful crew from the IS liaisons... :D
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #64 on: 19 October 2012, 09:19:56 »
I wish that RL Gabriel was a Marian ride...it's actually Taurian built and used.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #65 on: 19 October 2012, 21:16:27 »
I wish that RL Gabriel was a Marian ride...it's actually Taurian built and used.

My bad, yes it's Taurian.... I see rockets, and immediately think Marian.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #66 on: 21 October 2012, 17:03:34 »
Reference to the Master the Savannah thread reminded me; your average clan warrior probably hates the silly things.

Really?
As a Clanner, i would have nothing but respect for a warrior brave enough to drive a Medium Laser against a vastly superior Clan Omni.
Remember, these are the guys who see an augmented trial between an Elemental and a Light Mech as a fair fight, who trade in their Dire Wolf for a Sun Cobra, and who use inferior IS Mechs just to prove how good they are.
After all its not the weapon, its the warrior that counts.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #67 on: 22 October 2012, 10:22:47 »
I expect they'd hate the things since as soon as they see one they know honor's out the window and in a moment they'll have half a company parked at their 6! ;D

ianargent

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #68 on: 28 October 2012, 08:42:37 »
Really?
As a Clanner, i would have nothing but respect for a warrior brave enough to drive a Medium Laser against a vastly superior Clan Omni.
Remember, these are the guys who see an augmented trial between an Elemental and a Light Mech as a fair fight, who trade in their Dire Wolf for a Sun Cobra, and who use inferior IS Mechs just to prove how good they are.
After all its not the weapon, its the warrior that counts.
If they were handled in a manner consistent with the Clan War of War, they might be worthy of a little respect (they're still vehicles, after all). But they never are. Hence the rest of that post.
Yes, KF drive vessels, assuming they survive the atmospher[ic reentry] (they take 100 points of damage per hex per turn of velocity in the atmosphere), do tend to use an aggressive lithobraking method for landing.

Headshot

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #69 on: 28 October 2012, 10:53:28 »
Considering Protos can be heavier, are better armed, armored and used in swarms, nah, don't see it.

ianargent

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #70 on: 28 October 2012, 12:09:51 »
Considering Protos can be heavier, are better armed, armored and used in swarms, nah, don't see it.

Not terribly familiar with protomech tactics, actually. Given the controversy surrounding them, are they the best example for Clan thinking, though?
Yes, KF drive vessels, assuming they survive the atmospher[ic reentry] (they take 100 points of damage per hex per turn of velocity in the atmosphere), do tend to use an aggressive lithobraking method for landing.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #71 on: 30 October 2012, 00:07:19 »
Shame the Hellions are gone, Clan ⑨ From Outer Space would probably love the things.
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MOrab46019

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #72 on: 30 October 2012, 03:42:10 »
I put in a super charger in them. Also added 5 tons put a med. p.l. now it really moves.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #73 on: 30 October 2012, 10:09:53 »
That is only covering 6 hexes a turn so you will be easy prey for their weapons.  A better strategy is to only plan on pinning something for one turn so you can dart into position with good defensive mods and then bail out the next turn.  When used strategically this can pin an enemy in a very bad place and potentially set you up for a kill without sacrificing your hovers (or at least not many of them).

Is it still 6 hexes if they go around the enemy 3 times?

I've toyed with having some mount Mine Dispensers. Then having them zip in and surround them with a mine field and zip out. But I haven't gotten to test it so it might not work.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #74 on: 30 October 2012, 10:34:24 »
That would be...sick. Not quite as sick(but still fun) would be remote sensor dispensers.
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FedComGirl

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #75 on: 30 October 2012, 10:47:28 »
That would be...sick. Not quite as sick(but still fun) would be remote sensor dispensers.

 >:D    Yep! :) Could even mount one of each. :)

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #76 on: 30 October 2012, 10:49:17 »
Wait, how on earth would you mount a sensor dispenser and a minelayer of a S_M?
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FedComGirl

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #77 on: 30 October 2012, 10:54:24 »
They're both half a ton. Replace the medium laser.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #78 on: 30 October 2012, 11:05:56 »
Oooo... >:D
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #79 on: 30 October 2012, 11:09:43 »
 >:D

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #80 on: 30 October 2012, 11:13:50 »
Shame the Hellions are gone, Clan ⑨ From Outer Space would probably love the things.

they'd have just used the clantech spiritual twin invented independently by the blood spirits. same speed, larger, better protection, and way better firepower.

the Interdictor variant produced by the ghost bears during the Jihad especially is basically a Savannah Master on steroids, having a turreted ERmedium and an ECM system for better protection.
« Last Edit: 30 October 2012, 11:16:10 by glitterboy2098 »

Welshman

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #81 on: 30 October 2012, 11:18:10 »
the Interdictor variant produced by the ghost bears during the Jihad especially is basically a Savannah Master on steroids, having a turreted ERmedium and an ECM system for better protection.

Yes, the Bears got the idea from somewhere now didn't they.  8)
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sandstorm

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #82 on: 30 October 2012, 13:13:46 »
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #83 on: 30 October 2012, 13:16:33 »
They're both half a ton. Replace the medium laser.
What about the ammo?  That's still in full-ton lots...not that a vehicle like that would need armor, but still.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #84 on: 30 October 2012, 13:22:11 »
What ammo? Sensor dispensers aren't allowed to mount extra ammo, and mine dispensers...nope. They get 2 'shots', and can't carry any more past that.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #85 on: 30 October 2012, 18:18:35 »
Going by SSW, though why they have that sensor-dispensor ammo option is strange then.  I stand happily corrected.
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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #86 on: 30 October 2012, 18:36:51 »
I'm not sure but that may be a relatively recent change.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #87 on: 30 October 2012, 19:02:19 »
What ammo? Sensor dispensers aren't allowed to mount extra ammo, and mine dispensers...nope. They get 2 'shots', and can't carry any more past that.

i'd not want to drive a SM with no weapon and just a limited amount of support supplies. i'd say go with one or the other (IMO, the sensor dispenser would be most useful since a SM makes a great scout), and stick a small laser, or even an ERsmall to make it capable of self defense. Ersmall would be preferable once the tech becomes available, for the increased range.

chanman

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #88 on: 30 October 2012, 20:13:43 »
Wait, how on earth would you mount a sensor dispenser and a minelayer of a S_M?

By carrying Fa Shih?  :)

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #89 on: 30 October 2012, 20:16:03 »
Sloth with MagClamps?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #90 on: 30 October 2012, 21:13:08 »
i'd not want to drive a SM with no weapon and just a limited amount of support supplies. i'd say go with one or the other (IMO, the sensor dispenser would be most useful since a SM makes a great scout), and stick a small laser, or even an ERsmall to make it capable of self defense. Ersmall would be preferable once the tech becomes available, for the increased range.

That seems like trying to do too much with too little to me. Larger units can go multipurpose, but at the scale of the Savannah Master you really have to specialize. Be either a strike tank or a support unit, but not both. To me, what you propose would end up being armed just enough to get itself killed, especially since scout duties usually imply solo deployments instead of the roving packs usually used by S_Ms. As an example, look at the Lexan. It tries to be both a scout and a combat VTOL, and winds up being poor at both roles.
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Welshman

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #91 on: 30 October 2012, 22:22:33 »
i'd not want to drive a SM with no weapon and just a limited amount of support supplies. i'd say go with one or the other (IMO, the sensor dispenser would be most useful since a SM makes a great scout), and stick a small laser, or even an ERsmall to make it capable of self defense. Ersmall would be preferable once the tech becomes available, for the increased range.

That's more a strategic decision. You don't let an individual pilot decide if he's going to carry a pop gun, you let the Colonel decide what he wants from his mission.

If I want my people doing recon, I'm darn well not going to give them the guns to be stupid. :)
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Diablo48

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #92 on: 31 October 2012, 04:00:36 »
That seems like trying to do too much with too little to me. Larger units can go multipurpose, but at the scale of the Savannah Master you really have to specialize. Be either a strike tank or a support unit, but not both. To me, what you propose would end up being armed just enough to get itself killed, especially since scout duties usually imply solo deployments instead of the roving packs usually used by S_Ms. As an example, look at the Lexan. It tries to be both a scout and a combat VTOL, and winds up being poor at both roles.

While I fully agree with you on the subject of the laser, I might still consider a single RL-10 as a backup weapon.  It is really not enough to encourage your pilots to do anything stupid on their own, but it does let them smack the enemy if they happen to run into them while making it very clear that they need to get the hell out of there after they take their one shot from the random encounter.  That unexpected shot will also do more to slow the enemy down than seeing an unarmed scout because even if it misses the fact that you took a shot at them will make the enemy wary of ambushes.  It also gives them a bit more secondary utility in a fight by allowing you to group up your scouts for a quick strike at the rear of the enemy line without putting them in too much danger because the enemy should know better than to waste time killing the empty rocket platforms, and if not then at least they are not shooting at something that still matters.


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SCC

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Savannah Master
« Reply #93 on: 11 December 2013, 18:33:50 »
Yeeeah, that's not someone to game with. Ick.

Mine was a legit move by one of my longtime local gamers who saw an opportunity and lunged at it before I could get out of the trap (we had other units that needed to move first).
You know this trick would work with VTOLs, which would be really weird

 

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