Author Topic: Ideal Field Gun?  (Read 28072 times)

Weirdo

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #90 on: 22 February 2020, 08:46:00 »
They never could. The rules are very specific as to what can be a field gun:

Autocannons
Light Autocannons
Ultra Autocannons
LB-X Autocannons
Rotary Autocannons
Protomech Autocannons
Gauss weapons (not Heavy or HAG)
Rifles
(not listing Field Artillery, that's technically a different thing)
If it's not on that list, it can't be used, period.

Moreover, ALL field guns have a minimum crew of 2, so you can't spam a ridiculous number of Magshots or APGRs or hypothetical Light Rotary PRAC-1s.
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Daryk

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #91 on: 22 February 2020, 09:08:15 »
Thanks, that's what I thought.  Though I think 15 is still a ridiculous number...

truetanker

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #92 on: 22 February 2020, 10:33:40 »
Thanks, that's what I thought.  Though I think 15 is still a ridiculous number...

Well there's that maximum of 2 Support Weapons per Squad  rule, which slows them down... considering that you'll still need to have someone loading while someone else is "bore sighting " the field peice all together...

TT
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Weirdo

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #93 on: 22 February 2020, 10:46:17 »
Field Guns are not Support Weapons. They don't follow those rules.
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Sartris

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #94 on: 22 February 2020, 11:10:25 »
I think the spirit of the rule is for UAC/RAC costs and restrictions (such as no custom ammo). Allowing for jam free ACs in rapid-fire negates any reason to use UACs unless you're clan. Machine guns explicitly state they cannot be fired in rapid-fire with infantry field gun formations in the errata so I have a hard time buying that while you can rapid-fire ACs they are jam free as well.

This is coming from someone who uses field gun infantry extensively.

I can definitely be wrong but it doesn't seem like the rule was designed with that intention.

Rather than going around in circles with rule philosophizing (one of my least favorite activities) I asked in the rules forum

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Calimehter

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #95 on: 22 February 2020, 14:26:47 »
If I'm buying field guns in a vacuum with no idea what mission is coming up, I probably go for the humble AC-2, despite the low damage

- Keeps the unit cheap by any metric (C-bills, BV, etc.) for inclusion in battle groups and/or to replace losses
- Good range to offset the semi-mobile nature of field guns
- Available in all tech periods, with neat ammo options in later eras to "keep up" (sort of)
- SQUAD deployment kept open as an option (my favorite)

Boring, but flexible  :)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #96 on: 22 February 2020, 15:34:57 »
I'd be more in favor of AC-5s.  Not quite as much range but unless you're in a very open area that's not a huge consideration (tip- don't deploy infantry in very open areas) ad five point damage clusters will give mechs far more pause than two pointers.
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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #97 on: 22 February 2020, 15:44:17 »
there was that one time i deployed a company of infantry with LAC/2s in an urban scenario. 21 two pointers does indeed act as a deterrent  ;D




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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #98 on: 22 February 2020, 16:06:44 »
LACs are a bit different because you get so many of them.
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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #99 on: 22 February 2020, 17:10:57 »
Yeah I take the 5 over the 2 for standard ACs

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Calimehter

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #100 on: 22 February 2020, 17:23:48 »
My sole objection to the standard AC 5 is that it is one ton too heavy to be used by "typical" IS 7-man squads should I want to spread a "typical" 28-man platoon out a bit.  It otherwise makes a fine field gun.

If LACs are readily available, I think I would amend my earlier post to use LAC-5 instead of AC-2.  Its a bit pricier, one might miss the extra range once in a while, and the smaller amount of ammo makes some of the specialty rounds a bit tougher to use . . . but the extra damage is a great overall boost.

Wolf72

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #101 on: 22 February 2020, 19:17:41 »
never used, but I like the idea of Heavy and Medium Rifles ... talk about 'dirt-bag' militia worthy!  Wish the light rifle could actually do damage to BAR-10 units, even one point, but still fun to have as a very low tech option.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #102 on: 22 February 2020, 22:26:07 »
Infantry with H/M/L Rifle field guns against Ares tripods armed with plasma weapons and flamers to re-enact the 1897 Battle of London?
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RifleMech

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #103 on: 23 February 2020, 13:52:35 »
Infantry with H/M/L Rifle field guns against Ares tripods armed with plasma weapons and flamers to re-enact the 1897 Battle of London?

Can we also use Tank Cannons from TRO:1945?

Wolf72

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #104 on: 23 February 2020, 15:08:33 »
Infantry with H/M/L Rifle field guns against Ares tripods armed with plasma weapons and flamers to re-enact the 1897 Battle of London?

Yes!
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Simon Landmine

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #105 on: 23 February 2020, 15:58:26 »
Infantry with H/M/L Rifle field guns against Ares tripods armed with plasma weapons and flamers to re-enact the 1897 Battle of London?

Bows and arrows against the lightning!
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Weirdo

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #106 on: 24 February 2020, 10:54:35 »
Can we also use Tank Cannons from TRO:1945?

Not in the list, so no.
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truetanker

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #107 on: 24 February 2020, 13:40:59 »
Um... werent those the Rifled Autocannons already?

TT
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #108 on: 24 February 2020, 16:20:31 »
The larger ones yes, the smaller ones were using Infantry Support Weapons.
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RifleMech

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #109 on: 25 February 2020, 14:44:44 »
Not in the list, so no.

Bummer :(  They're fun.


Um... werent those the Rifled Autocannons already?

TT

The larger ones yes, the smaller ones were using Infantry Support Weapons.

To be specific the smaller tank cannons were equal to Medium and Heavy Recoiless Rifles. Mostly Medium.

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #110 on: 26 February 2020, 16:08:46 »
Rather than going around in circles with rule philosophizing (one of my least favorite activities) I asked in the rules forum

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48026.msg1110586#msg1110586

standard ACs do not jam when double-tapping as field guns

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Empyrus

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #111 on: 26 February 2020, 16:26:58 »
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48026.msg1110586#msg1110586

standard ACs do not jam when double-tapping as field guns
Oh, so very interesting...
I need to get into designing infantry...

Colt Ward

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #112 on: 26 February 2020, 16:54:20 »
Never sure how that was unclear- 'Behave like Ultras except . . . '

Ultra still have a range advantage over standard ACs, but it makes a GREAT fluff use for all the ACs that were getting pulled off mechs and some tanks-  3052 somewhere along the OZ borders, 'We just got these dozen containers full of old Succession Wars autocannons from Wolverines, Shadow Hawks, Orions and others . . . and orders from the quartermasters to equip some of our infantry with them to make "infantry, heavy" and build fortifications for the rest that are too hard to mobilize.'
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truetanker

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #113 on: 26 February 2020, 17:30:49 »
" It's just a bunch of dirt farmers... "

TT
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Colt Ward

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #114 on: 26 February 2020, 17:43:12 »
Which is a great way to dive head first into a shredder.
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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #115 on: 29 February 2020, 17:15:47 »
Which is a great way to dive head first into a shredder.
If you're lucky that is, otherwise it's another part of your anatomy that goes into the shredder, one far more sensitive.

pheonixstorm

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #116 on: 29 February 2020, 17:54:23 »
You may mock AC/2s but wait until you get a platoon firing in rapid fire while using Armor Piercing rounds. Or precision rounds at extreme range.

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #117 on: 29 February 2020, 18:34:01 »
or until you see what happens when your sparring partner with the vehicle fetish runs his VTOLs in front of a platoon loaded with flak.

I maintain that (most*) anything you can do with a ac/2 can be done better with a LB2

*Infantry smooshing with flak.
0..

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #118 on: 29 February 2020, 20:05:16 »
You may mock AC/2s but wait until you get a platoon firing in rapid fire while using Armor Piercing rounds. Or precision rounds at extreme range.
Waste of ammo.

The extra crit using AC/2s happens 1/36 of the time due to the hefty penalty for being an AC/2.  Normal TAC checks on a 'Mech happen 1/36 of the time and the result of this TAC check averages to .6111 crits per check.  Non-AP ammo ends up having about 11/648 crits per hit (~1.7 crits per 100 hits), and AP AC2 ammo when including its "free" check will have about 29/648 crits per hit (~4.5 crits per 100 hits).

4.5 is of course quite a bit better than 1.7, but AP ammo also hits significantly less often than standard ammo due to its +1 to-hit modifier, and even less often than precision ammo.  For instance, if the base to-hit number is 10, AP ammo hits only 1/12th of the time (modified THN of 11), standard ammo hits 1/6th of the time (base THN of 10), and precision ammo hits  about 42% of the time (modified THN of 8, -2 to-hit bonus).  At a base THN of 10, the average number of crits per shot when adjusting for hit frequency becomes:

Precision-.708 crits per 100 shots
AP-.375 crits per 100 shots
Standard-.283 crits per 100 shots
Note that AP ammo is only somewhat better (~30%) than standard ammo at causing crits despite its bonus, and standard ammo is hitting twice as often so more damage is actually being done.  Also note that Precision blows AP out of the water at THN 10 at its own job of causing TACs.

Change the THN to 9 and the results become:

Precision-.991 crits per 100 shots
AP-.75 crits per 100 shots
Standard- .472
AP finally blows past Standard shells, but Precision gets 3.5x more hits in, which is important for wearing down opponents and getting internal crits.

Change the THN to 8 and the results become:

Precision-1.23 crits per 100 shots
AP-1.25 crits per 100 shots
Standard-.708 crits per 100 shots
Finally, at THN 8, AP shells starts to get more crits in than even Precision rounds... by less than a 2% difference.  At such a small difference they're functionally equivalent, and considering Precision's still hitting a lot more frequently, you should have an extremely good reason to be using AC2 AP rounds over Precision in this case, such as "I am out of Precision rounds".

Changing the THN to 7 results in the following:

Precision-1.42 crits per 100 shots
AP- 1.875 crits per 100 shots
Standard-0.99 crits per 100 shots
AP now starts to get a decent lead on even Precision ammo, causing 32% more TACs on average.  Even now, the AP ammo is hitting less than half the time while Precision is hitting 5 times out of 6, so you have to really like those TACs to go with AP ammo in this case, but at least a reasonable case can be made for it.  Of course, if you're regularly getting THNs of 7 on your opponent's perfectly-healthy 'Mechs, AP ammo is the least of their problems...

TL;DR version: AP ammo is maybe OK at to-hit numbers of 7 and below, but honestly just take Precision ammo.

truetanker

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Re: Ideal Field Gun?
« Reply #119 on: 29 February 2020, 22:07:53 »
Wow...

Wall of text... (math hurt head)

Nerd...

 :D :D xp

Otherwise, very informative.

TT  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: 29 February 2020, 22:09:34 by truetanker »
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
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