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Off Topic and Technical Support => Off Topic => Topic started by: StoneRhino on 17 September 2019, 07:46:51

Title: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: StoneRhino on 17 September 2019, 07:46:51
I have been looking online and have been getting mixed information and I am hoping that someone with some experience can help clarify what I have been seeing.

The problem: A toilet is no longer filling. I have the replacement fill valve which also came with a new flapper. While the replacement is straight forward, it is complicated by a messed up shut off valve. The shut off valve is dripping to make things more annoying. The shut off valve no longer shuts off the water, instead it freely spins in both directions.

My main issue is having zero experience with plumbing as I am unsure how to go about shutting off the water. I know where to shut it off outside, but I am unsure about what I need to do regarding the water heater as some vids and articles have suggested that one switch it to pilot, where others suggest having to unplug it 30 ways till sunday and draining the water or preventing it from draining while the water is shut off. I believe that I should be able to replace the fill valve inside the toilet without to much trouble if I can shut off the water to the house and addressing the water heater properly. The shut off valve behind the toilet is another issue that has


The shut off valve behind the toilet is, according to the vids i have watched, the older type that you must turn several times. I believe the newer type is called a ball valve and requires just one twist. The current valve is no longer working properly. At one point I had to turn it off and twisted it to one point where the valve popped out about a quarter of an inch and now spins freely with no effect to the flow of water. At that point in time it started to drip, but a few weeks later it stopped and was ignored.

This leaves me with the problem of having to replace the shut off valve as I have no idea how compromised it is and having to dump out a bowl of water a few times a day is a waste. The valve is likely from when the house was built, which was in the 70s. I have no idea how hard it will be to remove. Seeing a video that suggested that one might need to use a saw to cut through it did not boost my confidence.


I am finding this rather frustrating as it is just one more thing in a series of issues that have been popping up. Whatever problems I can fix on my own would go a long way towards saving money that could be used to help resolve other issues.

Thanks
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: grimlock1 on 17 September 2019, 08:58:01
If I'm tracking, the toilet shut off is completely useless, correct?

In which case, you will need to shut off the water somewhere "upstream," probably at the main shut off for the house. As to the hot water heater, I wouldn't worry about it. Your heater spends most of the day sitting there, full of hot water, occasionally turning on to keep it hot.  It doesn't really matter if you open or close a valve at the water main, or at the faucet, there's no water flowing through the tank.

As to replacing the valve, I've had good luck with Shark Bite fittings. Saves having to sweat a new valve into place. As too removing the valve, a pipe cutter  (https://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-101-Tube-Cutter-1-4-in-to-1-1-8-in-40617/100075014)should do just fine. If there are clearance problems, look for a low profile pipe cutter (https://www.homedepot.com/p/GENERAL-WIRE-SPRING-1-2-in-O-D-Pipe-Tubing-Cutter-ATC12/100090448). The low profile ones do take a bit more hand strength to use and only work on one size of pipe but they are dang tiny.   One thing that SharkBite doesn't respond well to are burrs on the pipe. A pipe cutter like the above shouldn't leave any exterior burrs but ask about a deburring  (https://www.homedepot.com/b/Search/N-5yc1vZ2fkojui/Ntk-Extended/Ntt-deburring+tool?Ntx=mode+matchpartialmax&NCNI-5)tool.

One very good piece of advice I got was to buy a SharkBite Cap (https://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-1-2-in-Push-to-Connect-Brass-End-Stop-Fitting-U514LFA/202270531), and removal tool (https://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-1-2-in-Push-to-Connect-Disconnect-Clip-U710A/100638139) in every size pipe you might find yourself using. This way you can hit PAUSE on a project, restore water to the rest of the house and run out for parts, or stop for dinner.  Also, look in the tool box/parts organizer section for a small container to hold the caps and removal tools. I like zipper pouches (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-12-1-2-in-Multi-Color-Canvas-Zipper-Bags-4-Pack-5140/100647867), but that's just me.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: NeonKnight on 17 September 2019, 09:45:48
It's not your flapper per se.

(https://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/ur-toilet-parts-4014-4018.gif)

Assuming the tank looks the above image the FLOAT is what sets where the water shuts off. Lift the top of the tank and pull up on the float.

If possible, can you post a pic of the inside of your toilet. I've replaced many a toilet/floater, etc in my homes over the past year or so, so I'm willing to help you and help keep yer costs low.

As to the valve shut off for the toilet, depending on what that looks like, you may need an actual plumber if it involves any soldering etc.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: Cache on 17 September 2019, 15:38:12
Attach pics if you can. It'll help a lot with the advice.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: Cache on 17 September 2019, 16:01:07
You only shut off the water heater (is yours electric or gas?) if you drain it, and you shouldn't need to drain it. It's hot water and you'll be working on a cold water line. Even if it was hot water, I've replaced every fixture in my bathroom without touching the water heater. Shutting off the water main was enough.

Do  you have a basement? What level is the broken toilet on?

I believe the newer type is called a ball valve and requires just one twist.
The old valve sounds like a gate valve. They suck for anything other than metering (adjusting the flow), in my opinion.
The new valve sounds like a 1/4 (quarter)-turn ball valve. You can only turn it 90-degrees and it's for on/off, not metering.

I have no idea how hard it will be to remove. Seeing a video that suggested that one might need to use a saw to cut through it did not boost my confidence.
Deal with the shut-off valve first. Attach a pic if you can't tell what type of connection it is (screw-on, soldered, something else). Once the valve is replaced you can turn on the water main and just isolate the toilet. Other occupants of your house will be happier.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: GraceGraham on 07 April 2021, 15:38:22
I remember that such questions got my nephew when he started to work as a plumber. This job is a very rare one nowadays. So, it's hard to find a good plumber. On another one, their services are very expensive. Anyway,   it's very good that we have good experts in the plumbing domain. My nephew, it's working for Sydney's best plumbing company (https://www.wilcoplumbing.com.au/). He is very pleased with his job. The most important thing is the fact that people are very pleased with his work, and he is enjoying his work. He told me that is like a hobby for him.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: guardiandashi on 07 April 2021, 17:50:13
I have been looking online and have been getting mixed information and I am hoping that someone with some experience can help clarify what I have been seeing.

The problem: A toilet is no longer filling. I have the replacement fill valve which also came with a new flapper. While the replacement is straight forward, it is complicated by a messed up shut off valve. The shut off valve is dripping to make things more annoying. The shut off valve no longer shuts off the water, instead it freely spins in both directions.

My main issue is having zero experience with plumbing as I am unsure how to go about shutting off the water. I know where to shut it off outside, but I am unsure about what I need to do regarding the water heater as some vids and articles have suggested that one switch it to pilot, where others suggest having to unplug it 30 ways till sunday and draining the water or preventing it from draining while the water is shut off. I believe that I should be able to replace the fill valve inside the toilet without to much trouble if I can shut off the water to the house and addressing the water heater properly. The shut off valve behind the toilet is another issue that has


The shut off valve behind the toilet is, according to the vids i have watched, the older type that you must turn several times. I believe the newer type is called a ball valve and requires just one twist. The current valve is no longer working properly. At one point I had to turn it off and twisted it to one point where the valve popped out about a quarter of an inch and now spins freely with no effect to the flow of water. At that point in time it started to drip, but a few weeks later it stopped and was ignored.

This leaves me with the problem of having to replace the shut off valve as I have no idea how compromised it is and having to dump out a bowl of water a few times a day is a waste. The valve is likely from when the house was built, which was in the 70s. I have no idea how hard it will be to remove. Seeing a video that suggested that one might need to use a saw to cut through it did not boost my confidence.


I am finding this rather frustrating as it is just one more thing in a series of issues that have been popping up. Whatever problems I can fix on my own would go a long way towards saving money that could be used to help resolve other issues.

Thanks
I had a similar issue a couple years ago
I am going to start with the simple answers and then work my way to the more complicated issues/solutions.

option 1 look at the pipe that comes out of the wall into the cutoff valve. in the best case it is threaded into the cutoff valve.
if this is the case this is an ~20 minute fix
1 shut off the water (likely at the meter cutoff) this will stop all water flow to the house
2 if possible find a faucet or other water spigot at a lower elevation to the toilet in question or even the sink or shower/tub in the bath room and open it to bleed off the cold water pressure (hot pressure would be good as well to prevent back flow.)
3 take 2 wrenches pipe wrenches if necessary put one on the pipe to hold it still, put the second on the failed (gate valve) and turn it (typically counter clock wise) to take the supply cut off valve out. put your teflon plumbers tape onto the pipes threads ~1-2 wraps NO more wrapped so that when you start putting the new cutoff valve (preferably ball style) on it will not unwrap and burr up the tape, and tighten down the new valve so that it is reasonably tight but not super tight or it will crack/leak (yes fittings will leak if under or over tightened) make sure the valve is off and turn the water on at the outside cut off valve, and check for leaks.
if no leaks around the cut off supply valve, then just reconnect the toilet and test.

next option the valve is "soldered/sweated on.
in this case you will need to cut the pipe off.  in this case it will likely be copper tubing.  my recommendation is to get a copper/brass tubing to thread fitting and solder/sweat it onto the end of the pipe coming out of the wall, so you don't have to do this again.  after that threaded connector is on the pipe, you just follow the previous install instructions.

my reasoning for turning the water at the supply valve on before connecting the toilet is so you don't have to take the toilet supply line off repeatedly if there is an issue.

note the supply valve on the pipe side sand the pipe/threaded fitting should be pipe thread as that is the standard.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: Wasquez on 07 September 2021, 07:45:44
Why don't you call a plumber? I get it that each one of us has pride, but it can ruin many beautiful things and I don't know if it's worth it. If you were to call someone from https://teamemergencyplumber.com (https://teamemergencyplumber.com) or any other company, the issue will be gone. Of course that it's going to be more expensive than doing it by yourself, but you're going to have a quality result. If you're going to make one mistake, that's going to cost you more than the entire operation and I don't think that it's worth if taking a risk like that. It's your call after all
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: Red Pins on 07 September 2021, 16:56:13
Why don't you call a plumber?

1. Manly pride.
2. $100 call-out, $80-100 per hour (Journeyman.  Most turn their noses up at this, and send out an apprentice, though.  Still costs the same.)
3. If you can't (or won't at least try)to fix the small stuff, you have no business owning a home.  You can't afford a repairman for EVERYTHING.

But mostly #1.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: guardiandashi on 07 September 2021, 17:12:27
1. Manly pride.
2. $100 call-out, $80-100 per hour (Journeyman.  Most turn their noses up at this, and send out an apprentice, though.  Still costs the same.)
3. If you can't (or won't at least try)to fix the small stuff, you have no business owning a home.  You can't afford a repairman for EVERYTHING.

But mostly #1.

I look at it as more 2 than 1 but both can be a factor.
the reality is most plumbing issues are pretty simple to fix, but paying a pro to do it can end up being ~200-500 ish for something that you can potentially fix yourself for ~$10 us for the valve $2.00 for a roll of teflon tape, and $15-20 each for pipe wrenches so if you don't have the tools the example fix could run ~50 as a DIY project, if you just need the parts... its more like $10 or so vs hundreds to pay someone to do it for you.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: Daryk on 07 September 2021, 17:33:20
Replacing a shut off valve is something I would call a plumber for.  Something that old might require brazing.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: rjhancock on 07 September 2021, 19:31:07
A couple years ago I replaced 11 valves and hoses along with 5 faucets in our house and it was about $600 for all of it by our plumber. Worth every penny. Most things I can take care but when it came to the valves, I let them deal with them to prevent issues. I could have done the faucets myself but they were already here and down there so it wasn't much more.

Not saying you can't do it yourself, but my skill set isn't in plumbing.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: rebs on 07 September 2021, 19:39:17
It sucks, but a pro plumber sounds like what you really need, so I agree with that.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: Red Pins on 07 September 2021, 22:14:00
As somebody who bought a 100-year-old house, after twenty years I'd be willing to tackle it, having watched every plumber for every service call I could, tons of youtube videos, and worked in a fastener/hardware store for a couple years.

For somebody just beginning to try this kind of thing, PLUMBER.  Get him to replace the valve with a threaded end, and put the hard-to-fix valve on the smart side of it, and if you don't have cut-offs to EVERY source already, get him to do it now.  I never regretted it.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: five_corparty on 08 September 2021, 20:18:39
Not saying you can't do it yourself, but my skill set isn't in plumbing.

SAME! :-)

- I agree with everyone pics would help
- I've replaced my rings and all the internal parts of all our toilets, so I agree with everyone and you that if it's a low level job, do it yourself
- I also agree with everyone to know yourself first: if this is out of your skill set, cough up the money.  I've got bad rotator cuffs and knees after 20 years in the Army, so while I -felt- like I could replace the garbage disposal, I was like, "yeaaaah, I ain't gonna fit in there and I SURE ain't messing with electricity."  :D 8)  So, I encourage the self-repair motivation as long as you temper with with self-awareness.  :)

good luck my friend!
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: Nightlord01 on 09 September 2021, 02:22:14
SAME! :-)

- I agree with everyone pics would help
- I've replaced my rings and all the internal parts of all our toilets, so I agree with everyone and you that if it's a low level job, do it yourself
- I also agree with everyone to know yourself first: if this is out of your skill set, cough up the money.  I've got bad rotator cuffs and knees after 20 years in the Army, so while I -felt- like I could replace the garbage disposal, I was like, "yeaaaah, I ain't gonna fit in there and I SURE ain't messing with electricity."  :D 8)  So, I encourage the self-repair motivation as long as you temper with with self-awareness.  :)

good luck my friend!

I've gotta temper this self repair concept with one statement. An old friend of mine, a plumber ironically, told me once that the self repair amateurs were his best source of business. He even got more labour hours out of it, because he generally had to undo whatever they had done before he could fix it.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: cavingjan on 09 September 2021, 07:46:35
I have acidic water here at the house so replacing valves was an every four year process. Some factors to consider:

1. Cut as little pipe as possible. What you see out of the wall is all you have before you have to start dealing with bigger headaches. That dictates how many times this can be done. And failed attempts count against it.

2. If one is bad, probably more are bad. Usually how our visits work, we shut off the valves in the house and find the leaky ones. Usually we find two or three that weren't working right. We replace them and any mates (the other water line to the faucet). I have a plumber do them now. It is one thing to do one but my time it worth more when it comes to multiple. I can do one in 45 minutes. Our plumbers can knock out about six in the same time period.
3. The biggest timesink is draining the system enough to do it. It isn't hard but it does take some time. If you have a plumber come in, shut off the water and start draining right before they get there. That will save them some time.
4. Second biggest tinesink is accessing the stuff. If the shutoff is in a vanity, clear it all out. In one case, we had to remove a toilet because the shutoff was too short and close to the wall. (That was the last straw and since we had a lot of the walls opened for other improvements, we just opted to gut all of the supply lines. It was an extra $250 at the time.)

It may be worth buying the supplies and doing a test run first. I will agree with the comments about plumbers are often cheaper over time. Simple things like faucets and gutting a toilet are worth doing yourself. A lot of the rest goes to the plumbers.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: mezeehud on 14 December 2021, 10:18:24
I've had several plumbing problems, some of them quite complicated. But this one seems to be the easiest one I can think of.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: Terminax on 14 December 2021, 13:10:22
Professional handyman here. I do allot of simple plumbing jobs, like adding or replacing cut off valves, fixing and replacing of toilets and flanges. Take some pics, and I can advise based on what I see.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: rongxiangg on 15 December 2021, 13:09:25
I've had several plumbing problems, some of them quite complicated. But this one seems to be the easiest one I can think of. You need a good tool to install new valves. I prefer the Clipper for installing valves, but you can use any other tool you like. You have to make sure everything is in order before you get started. This can be tricky to do, especially if you have no experience. And in that case, I would call a plumber from https://emergencyplumbingoncall.com (https://emergencyplumbingoncall.com) to ensure you don't mess anything up with your actions.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: Cannon_Fodder on 18 December 2021, 03:26:20
My general advice for DIY plumbing is: anything after an isolation shutoff valve - give it a shot. The shutoff valve to the street - call a professional.

After the shutoff valve if a repair goes wrong you can isolate the issue and live without that faucet, toilet, ect. for a few days while you trouble shoot the problem. If you have to shut off the whole house and risk spousal aggro it would be safer (in more ways than one) to bring in a pro even if you think you have the tools and experience to do the job.
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: elf25s on 19 December 2021, 00:47:10
to date 3 of my friends in past 30 years had said ahhh to hell with it i can do it myself it will be cheaper! a sink job in the kitchen 9 k broken pipes and stripped threads plus idiot forgot to shut the water so water damage to wood floor. pro costs after ill do it myself 9k. ahhh to hell with it its only a faucet in the bathroom
4 k after water pipe burst because pressure build up  because it was wrong faucet and idiot decided to use caulking gun to fix the drippy leaks pipe new faucets mark it faucets parts and labor 4k. next one was over 30k bathroom renovation how hard can it be you tube make it look easy and home depot books too...
lets see messed with electrical systems pipes destroyed the tub and sewer pipe  and walls...and plenty of electric shocks...parts labor and electrician 30k


lesson here unless it is something simple like a knob or a faucet you know you can do like a shower head replacement call a pro pay the money and at least the pro guarantees their work.

or you could be a star like tom hanks in money pit...and scream after you hear 2 weeeks
Title: Re: Basic Plumbing help needed..
Post by: Lanceman on 01 September 2022, 14:24:36
I have no good advice to give that hasn't already been given, but I can offer commiseration.

I hate plumbing work so so much.