Clan Protectorate

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

So speaking politically about the Spirit Cats/Nova Cats, I'm inclined to think they are probably leaning quite Crusader before/during the IlClan era. They switched to Wardens after joining the Inner Sphere but then;

~ They were abjured.
~ The 2nd Star League was revealed to be a sham.
~ The Draconis Combine treated them horrifically and eventually genocided most of them.
~ Galaxy Commander Kev Rosse called for the Spirit Cats to return a 'purer' form of Cat.

Between the genocide and Kev Rosse's call, I just can't see most Cats remaining wardens. Why try to protect the people who literally genocided most of your Clan? They've got a decent deal in the FWL and there is definitely a split between the older Spirit Cats like Rikkard and the younger ones who don't remember how harrowing it was to escape from the Republic and find a haven, and try to rebuild.

[BrianDavion]

So speaking politically about the Spirit Cats/Nova Cats, I'm inclined to think they are probably leaning quite Crusader before/during the IlClan era. They switched to Wardens after joining the Inner Sphere but then;

~ They were abjured.
~ The 2nd Star League was revealed to be a sham.
~ The Draconis Combine treated them horrifically and eventually genocided most of them.
~ Galaxy Commander Kev Rosse called for the Spirit Cats to return a 'purer' form of Cat.

Between the genocide and Kev Rosse's call, I just can't see most Cats remaining wardens. Why try to protect the people who literally genocided most of your Clan? They've got a decent deal in the FWL and there is definitely a split between the older Spirit Cats like Rikkard and the younger ones who don't remember how harrowing it was to escape from the Republic and find a haven, and try to rebuild.

the warden/crusader dichotomy is by the ilclan era dead. Terra has been conquered after all, the crusade WON

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

the warden/crusader dichotomy is by the ilclan era dead. Terra has been conquered after all, the crusade WON

It's not the core political division anymore but it's not exactly dead, Warden ideology is alive and well in the Scorpion Empire and ilClan is just another IS political entity to them

The core Warden tenet is to come to the aid of the Inner Sphere if it is ever endangered by external threat and they still uphold their oath to greater mankind

But I do think that Cats have no reason or justification not to go Crusader, they have been keelhauled super hard. True, they brought it entirely on themselves but even with that in mind this was a bit too much

And yes, in the Inner Sphere political landscape the Crusaders won, Terra is theirs and that was the stated objective of the whole ideology

What happens next is different topic

[Metallgewitter]

I get the feeling the spirit Cats / Nova Cats don't follow any of the Clan believes but rather a "Just leave us alone god damnit!" philosophy. Remember they were not keen on helping the IlClan but their Sea Fox partners "convinced" them (by trial) to do it. And now they are part of a nation that is hellbent on extracting revenge on the Wolf Empire. This doesn't exactly place under Warden or Crusader imho. Even the Fox part of the Protectorate does it probably more for the business aspect then any real love for the IlClan.

[tassa_kay]

It's not the core political division anymore but it's not exactly dead. Warden ideology is alive and well in the Scorpion Empire and ilClan is just another IS political entity to them

The Warden ideology isn't "alive and well" in the Scorpion Empire at all. They've expressed exactly zero interest in intervening in or protecting the Inner Sphere from outside threats, or anything at all beyond their own self-interest.

Sorry, but Brian is right: the Crusader/Warden dichotomy is dead and gone in the ilClan era. In fact, it's been more or less dead since the late 3060s, when that dichotomy was more or less replaced by the Home/Invading Clan dichotomy and then smashed to bits entirely by the Wars of Reaving. That was kind of the point. 

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

The Warden ideology isn't "alive and well" in the Scorpion Empire at all. They've expressed exactly zero interest in intervening in or protecting the Inner Sphere from outside threats, or anything at all beyond their own self-interest. ...

Solving your own day-to-day problems in timely manner is not "self-interest" it's just being normal

They are the only ones who even bother keeping an eye on possible external threat (homies), fact that they are also close by doesn't change the fact that ideology still applies

And one of the arguments against the Warden ideology was that they couldn't specifically define what exactly the external threat would be

They were being expected to narrowly define huge number of possible events none of which having happened yet

They could and still can't (nobody can without access to 40k grade assets) but that doesn't change their beliefs

Once external threat shows up then you can't crack open this argument again

[tassa_kay]

Solving your own day-to-day problems in timely manner is not "self-interest" it's just being normal

That's literally the definition of self-interest.

They are the only ones who even bother keeping an eye on possible external threat (homies), fact that they are also close by doesn't change the fact that ideology still applies

They aren't keeping an eye on the Home Clans on the Inner Sphere's behalf (which is what would make them Warden), they're keeping an eye on them out of self-interest/self-preservation.

And one of the arguments against the Warden ideology was that they couldn't specifically define what exactly the external threat would be

They were being expected to narrowly define huge number of possible events none of which having happened yet

They could and still can't (nobody can without access to 40k grade assets) but that doesn't change their beliefs

Once external threat shows up then you can't crack open this argument again

All of this is irrelevant. They're not Wardens, because Wardens don't exist anymore.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Preservers then?

[parable]

I'm inclined to cleave towards Tassa Kay's viewpoint: the Clans at this point aren't the monolithic entity (yeah, I know that was never the case) they were circa 3050.  Honestly, saying that there are overarching Clan philosophies is largely a fool's errand.  As far as I can see (and I haven't read much of anything in the ilClan era), there are Clans that rally behind Clan Wolf's ilKhanate, those that deny it as legitimate, and (most importantly) those who don't care.  The Rasalhague Dominion is not, AFAIK, about to cede any territory nor sovereignly just because the Wolves took Terra.  The Scorpion Empire is just out on the periphery surviving, the Sharkfoxes are settling into their role as Comstar 2.0, and the Raven Alliance is its normal inscrutable self.  If I were asked to group these disparate groups into 2 or 3 easily-determined philosophies, I'd quit--it's largely impossible.  IMO, none of the definitions work--at best I'd say there are 2 camps, the self-deterministic (Rasalhague, Scorpion, Raven) and the traditional (Wolf, Jade Falcon, Hell's Horses).  Spirit Cats would be the former, Nova Cats would honestly be closer to the latter than they'd admit. 

There's my (admittedly sloppy) analysis of the situation.

[BrianDavion]

I think among the Inner Sphere clans (and the goliath scorpions) I'd almost argue the split that exists is between "intergrationalists" vs "Preservers"

those who accept that the clans will have to intergrate with the inner sphere populations and likely become something new, vs those who want to stand apart from the Inner Sphere populations and preserve their clan identity.

I'd argue along this split you have clans wolf, jade falcon and hells horses being "preservers" with the snow ravens, ghost bears goliath scorpions being the intergrationalists

[Metallgewitter]

I am not sure if I would count the Ravens as "integrationalists" as they just like the Horses don't mingle much with their Alliance population. They don't even field mixed units but keep the Alliance milita separated from their own (unless I overlooked something). And don't get me started on their economy policy. While Alliance companies do prodcue Clan tech this seems to be only destined for the Ravens. The majority of the Alliance still seem to live as in the early 3060's. Isn't this the main weakness of the Ravens at the moment? Their military and economy is stretched thin thanks to the massive reactivation of their fleet which is hindered by a rather small ground force touman.

[tassa_kay]

Honestly, I'm sick to death of seeing the Clans always thrown into dichotomies: Wardens/Crusaders, Home/Invader, Bastions/Aggressors, Imperials/Preservers, Slips/Jesses, Joiners/Deniers... it's so lazy and creatively bankrupt, and I am enjoying the fact that (at least as far as I can see) the Clan Protectorate hasn't fallen into this stupid trope.

[WONC]

I am enjoying the fact that (at least as far as I can see) the Clan Protectorate hasn't fallen into this stupid trope.

Well, we Nova Cats and our descendants are nothing if not... unpredictable? Yeah, that feels like the correct term for it.

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

Honestly, I'm sick to death of seeing the Clans always thrown into dichotomies: Wardens/Crusaders, Home/Invader, Bastions/Aggressors, Imperials/Preservers, Slips/Jesses, Joiners/Deniers... it's so lazy and creatively bankrupt, and I am enjoying the fact that (at least as far as I can see) the Clan Protectorate hasn't fallen into this stupid trope.

Well it seems they're falling into the trap of whether they should support the IlClan or not, so there's that.

Honestly, historians love to break up societies into major conflicting groups, but you peel away at that initial layer and there's tons of individual conflicts/smaller subgroup conflicts that make that dichtonomy far more complicated than what might initially assume.

[parable]

Well, we Nova Cats and our descendants are nothing if not... unpredictable? Yeah, that feels like the correct term for it.

If I am not allowed to hike and fast out in the wilderness until I start hallucinating, and cannot base my entire life on that fever dream, I am terminally bereft.  The Nova Cats' ways of seeing are, well...at best unhealthy and at worst absolute insanity. 

edit: (which is true of literally every Clan, and part of the reason I love those fascist furries)

[JAMES_PRYDE]

How do us Green Turkey's do it then ?

(You have opened a can of worms here now lol)

[parable]

How do us Green Turkey's do it then ?

(You have opened a can of worms here now lol)

Get EI.  Find an IS nemesis.  ?  YOU DARE TO REFUSE MY BATCHALL!?

[Dragon Cat]

Given that the Sea Foxes somehow are able to navigate the support ilClan but still supply/be accepted by the Inner Sphere the Spirit Cats should perhaps follow their lead...

The issue I guess with that is while they are two very long and close allies this was always built on both sides having something to offer the other. As the Nova Cats made... Some missteps...  they at least had tech/territory to trade to the Sea Foxes to keep the two relatively equal

The question I guess is how long in the ilClan era this continues as the Foxes are clearly the stronger partner which could lead to a Trial of Absorbtion. Of course if the Spirit Cats played their cards right and demanded a Ransom, say the Khanate based in the Protectorate, and won. Combined with a return of Kisho you could see a full rebirth of the Nova Cats

[Metallgewitter]

I think the main issue will be how the Protectorate will deal with the rest of the League. By now their offer for repairing the HPG's in parts of the League in return for stopping the occupation of Empire worlds seems to have been fully rejected and their "parent nation" has gone into full war with the Wolf Empire and by extension the IlClan. The Protectorate MP's voted against said assault but now they are stuck with it. Simply joining the Wolves would possibly sunder the Protectorate as the Spirits Cats and most likely the Nova Cats are not exactly keen on supporting the IlClan while the Foxes see the Ilclan as a great business opportunity. And legally they are bound to the League unless they decide to go independent. Copying their parent nation to a T 

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

Given that the Sea Foxes somehow are able to navigate the support ilClan but still supply/be accepted by the Inner Sphere the Spirit Cats should perhaps follow their lead...

The issue I guess with that is while they are two very long and close allies this was always built on both sides having something to offer the other. As the Nova Cats made... Some missteps...  they at least had tech/territory to trade to the Sea Foxes to keep the two relatively equal

The question I guess is how long in the ilClan era this continues as the Foxes are clearly the stronger partner which could lead to a Trial of Absorbtion. Of course if the Spirit Cats played their cards right and demanded a Ransom, say the Khanate based in the Protectorate, and won. Combined with a return of Kisho you could see a full rebirth of the Nova Cats

Between Randall N. Bills mentioning they have plans for the Spirit Cats/Nova Cats and the countless drops in recent fiction about Alaric avenging the Nova Cats, I can't see an absorption. The Spirit Cats currently have more clusters than the Jade Falcons or Smoke Jaguars do on Terra.

[Church14]

If you’re talking Spirit cats being absorbed, nobody who would engage in an absorption has enough to do it and in the area they need it. Foxes only have a bare five-ish cluster across all of FWL/Empire and 1 or 2 just took a beating. Wolves are a long ways an a brutal war away. Empire has ten clusters, but most have taken a beating already. If they went to absorb the Cats, it would be suicide as FWL would sweep the empire.

Between Randall N. Bills mentioning they have plans for the Spirit Cats/Nova Cats and the countless drops in recent fiction about Alaric avenging the Nova Cats, I can't see an absorption. The Spirit Cats currently have more clusters than the Jade Falcons or Smoke Jaguars do on Terra.

What lore hints have there been? I don’t see why Alaric - mister symbolism himself - would avenge a clan that was abjured after siding with the 2nd Star league. That ignores that Alaric simply doesn’t have the assets to do anything of substance to DC. He barely has enough to repel Daoshen’s advance

[Metallgewitter]

What lore hints have there been? I don’t see why Alaric - mister symbolism himself - would avenge a clan that was abjured after siding with the 2nd Star league. That ignores that Alaric simply doesn’t have the assets to do anything of substance to DC. He barely has enough to repel Daoshen’s advance

The only symbolism I can come up with would be "Only Clans can annihilate Clans not the dezgra IS barbarians!" Probably ignoring that the current Wolves will look very Is once all that fighting is over and most of their ranks are filled with IS citizens as the Wolves iron womb facilities are now in the hands of the League and probably shut down for good
And do the Prtotectorate Foxes have that much forces? From what I understood is that most of their forces are more a mix of Clans and deserving IS citizens with perhaps one or two pure Clusters. And that Provisonal Cluster with Nova Cats and Republic refugees

[Colt Ward]

. . . as the Wolves iron womb facilities are now in the hands of the League and probably shut down for good . . .

Says where?

[Metallgewitter]

Says where?

Sorry, that was my prediction for the coming years. You have to admit should the Empire fall completly into League hands I would expect that these facilities are shut down with immediate effect. Or do you think the Protectorate would take them over? That has me wonder though: where do Clans keep their Iron womb facilities? Only at their capitals?

[Colt Ward]

Sorry, that was my prediction for the coming years. You have to admit should the Empire fall completly into League hands I would expect that these facilities are shut down with immediate effect. Or do you think the Protectorate would take them over? That has me wonder though: where do Clans keep their Iron womb facilities? Only at their capitals?

Never really covered- the master genetic repository is usually located there along with the Blood Chapels (see Nova Cats for best description) though usually a back up repository is cited somewhere, it is not given the fanfare of the master.  BUT if you look at how spread out the sibkos are by the ilClan era- see the Falcon & Bears for best example- then IMO you basically might end up with 'sector' Iron Womb facilities popping out trueborns under the direction of the scientists at the Master Genetic Repository.  Heck, you could have 'back ups' in all those areas I guess- question is security vs ease of access.

Sibkos in the late stages of their training DO rotate to other worlds (as of DA/ilClan eras) to experience different conditions.

[Minemech]

 Thinking from a Free Worlds League fan perspective, the genetic repository is too valuable a bargaining vessel to simply shut down for the long term, however the bionic controversy may prevent most League states from making use of it themselves. It may instead be "Leased" to the Protectorate at least in the short term if not used as a bargaining tool with another entity, possibly including the Dragoons themselves. 

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

What lore hints have there been? I don’t see why Alaric - mister symbolism himself - would avenge a clan that was abjured after siding with the 2nd Star league. That ignores that Alaric simply doesn’t have the assets to do anything of substance to DC. He barely has enough to repel Daoshen’s advance

Alaric said he wanted revenge for the Nova Cats being genocided in Children of Kerensky, and it was repeated in the intro for Empire Alone. Will it happen? Probably not, but it seems Alaric would like to see the Nova Cats resurrected.

[Angrii]

But does "revenge for" somehow equal "resurrection of"? I don't recall that specific sentiment in print.

[Dragon Cat]

Sorry, that was my prediction for the coming years. You have to admit should the Empire fall completly into League hands I would expect that these facilities are shut down with immediate effect. Or do you think the Protectorate would take them over? That has me wonder though: where do Clans keep their Iron womb facilities? Only at their capitals?

I'd put my Kerensky's on the Wolves taking their Blood Legacies with them to Terra, they were all in, the facilities may have been left behind but noway they would leave the legacies to garrison troops and cadets

I'd guess that they'd have done something like the Nova Cats did with Kisho the legacies themselves must be in container like transports it would be cool if it was explained sometime how they are transported

[Metallgewitter]

That should be the only possibility though I expect that they have at least some repositories in their empire otherwise they could not "breed" new Trueborns. This would be a gap in their entire Clan they would need to bridge. Of course I am not sure if they also took examples of their Iron wombs with them or have to begin from scratch in the Terran system.