Author Topic: “Save” the Jags  (Read 143237 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #840 on: 20 February 2024, 20:05:08 »
The Inner Sphere, I believe.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #841 on: 20 February 2024, 21:15:09 »
The Inner Sphere, I believe.

Right but was it the star league who then split the loot?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #842 on: 20 February 2024, 21:54:25 »
It was divided up between participating Star League forces.  Don't think we ever got a breakdown of how it was divided.
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Church14

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #843 on: 21 February 2024, 10:45:51 »
Yeah. First priority would be using the salvage to rebuild what forces can be rebuilt. Maybe with an eye towards whoever was assigned to stay as a garrison first

Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #844 on: 21 February 2024, 16:30:58 »
Under extremely unusual circumstances.  The Remnant Falcons are at a point where they're desperate for warriors.  And they targeted sibkos that had reached the point where they were almost ready for their first trials of position.  They weren't trialing for babies or toddlers.

Assuming the jags survived huntress they would have been a similar desperate situation ( worse I think) who do we think they would have tried to Harvest from?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #845 on: 21 February 2024, 16:51:49 »
I don't think they'd have targeted sibkos the way Jiyi did.  In the scenario you're proposing, the Jags would have needed to prove that they were strong enough to remain a functioning Clan to the Grand Council. Raiding other Clans for sibkos rather than conducting Harvest Trials for warriors would have likely gotten them marked for Absorption.
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tassa_kay

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #846 on: 21 February 2024, 17:00:56 »
Ironically, the Vipers raided the Jaguars for one of their sibkos in Jaguar's Leap, and it didn't seem to be an issue.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #847 on: 21 February 2024, 18:54:20 »
Never underestimate the hypocrisy and two-faced nature of Clan politics.

Especially when it comes to justifying action against a Clan that none of the other Clans like.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #848 on: 31 March 2024, 18:32:23 »
It's looking like the Iron Cheetah is going to be canon now  :o



Pure speculation on my part but I can't imagine what else that would be!  Its visible loadout matches the configuration presented on the HMP website, just with some weapons location changes.

Any word of this “cool cat” sorry lol! Is getting its own sculpt?

ColBosch

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #849 on: 31 March 2024, 19:14:48 »
Any word of this “cool cat” sorry lol! Is getting its own sculpt?

Not yet announced, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time. I can't wait; it's a beast of a 'Mech. Better than the Dire Wolf in every way but raw pod space, and most of the Daishi's configurations are honestly over-gunned or waste a lot of that extra tonnage on more heat sinks.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #850 on: 31 March 2024, 19:52:04 »
Not yet announced, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time. I can't wait; it's a beast of a 'Mech. Better than the Dire Wolf in every way but raw pod space, and most of the Daishi's configurations are honestly over-gunned or waste a lot of that extra tonnage on more heat sinks.

Or just on guns that it can't afford to fire or it will cook itself.
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Maingunnery

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #851 on: 31 March 2024, 19:53:51 »
Or just on guns that it can't afford to fire or it will cook itself.
Yes it is far more balanced than the Dire Wolf, and I can't wait to obtain one for my Ravens.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #852 on: 31 March 2024, 20:06:26 »
Only one?
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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #853 on: 02 April 2024, 02:46:26 »
The IC was a fan design IIRC & it really shows in the optimized configurations.
You can make very deadly DireWolves that can stomp an IC, just look at the Hohiro model for example.
But it's hard to argue what is better w/ only "canon configs" when one is clearly made from a different standard.
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JAMES_PRYDE

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #854 on: 02 April 2024, 07:45:35 »
Looks like a Direwolf to me ?

ColBosch

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #855 on: 02 April 2024, 08:31:58 »
Looks like a Direwolf to me ?

It's based on the same chassis, but is faster and (slightly) better-armored. As mentioned, it also has better stock configurations.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #856 on: 08 April 2024, 16:11:41 »
I think that after Howell killed the first few idiots, the rest would fall in line fairly easily.  Especially if the Clan's strength was obviously increasing.

Picking up this fun what if: the jags needed more troops and loathed the nova cats. Could they have worked a deal to tag in another home clan to claim nova cat worlds and troublesome former combine worlds? The horses come to mind and maybe the hellions?

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #857 on: 09 April 2024, 08:30:29 »
Picking up this fun what if: the jags needed more troops and loathed the nova cats. Could they have worked a deal to tag in another home clan to claim nova cat worlds and troublesome former combine worlds? The horses come to mind and maybe the hellions?

Too proud, even though they were on a sinking ship so to speak

I remember a line in one of the "Twilight of the Clans" novels, where it said something to the extent that Smoke Jags hid what was going on in their OZ (Bulldog) from the other Clans, as so not to appear weak or target for Absorbtion. It was not until Serpent poped up on Huntress's and Strana Mecthy's door step. By then they were finished

But yes original comment, it could have worked, if it was timed right, and Smoke Jag was not so proud

Gaiiten

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #858 on: 09 April 2024, 10:29:47 »
I have wondered why none of the other Clans declared a Trial of Absorption for the Jaguars. At least when they knew Huntress was invaded by the Inner Sphere.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #859 on: 09 April 2024, 13:11:28 »
I have wondered why none of the other Clans declared a Trial of Absorption for the Jaguars. At least when they knew Huntress was invaded by the Inner Sphere.

My guess is they assumed the jags would win and then be so busted up that they could have been absorbed “legally” after the IS was driven off. They were not planning on the great refusal etc

Metallgewitter

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #860 on: 09 April 2024, 16:01:50 »
My guess is they assumed the jags would win and then be so busted up that they could have been absorbed “legally” after the IS was driven off. They were not planning on the great refusal etc

Can you imagine how that trial would look like? When Lincoln Osis fled from Huntress the Jaguars had a binary left. Even if they had won they might have cobbled up one Galaxy at most. Plus perhaps 1 or 2 warships. The Jaguars were already dead at that point I feel absorption would have been a meaningless gesture. And probably honorless as well.If you want their resources you can just walk in and take it.

tassa_kay

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #861 on: 09 April 2024, 16:03:27 »
I have wondered why none of the other Clans declared a Trial of Absorption for the Jaguars. At least when they knew Huntress was invaded by the Inner Sphere.

Because they had bigger things to worry about... like the SLDF forces amassed on their doorstep, and the fear that the SLDF might not stop with the Jaguars.

Can you imagine how that trial would look like? When Lincoln Osis fled from Huntress the Jaguars had a binary left. Even if they had won they might have cobbled up one Galaxy at most. Plus perhaps 1 or 2 warships. The Jaguars were already dead at that point I feel absorption would have been a meaningless gesture. And probably honorless as well.If you want their resources you can just walk in and take it.

It wouldn't have been a meaningless gesture, because Absorption isn't just about a Clan's military assets (which are never a guarantee anyway, given that said Clan would likely be throwing those forces against their opponent). Whatever Clan won the bid for Absorption would've gotten all of those Jaguar enclaves for virtually nothing (and things might've gone quite different in the Homeworlds post-Refusal), and resources in the Homeworlds count for a lot.

As for it being "honorless", I kinda disagree: Clan honor would consider an Absorption against a weak Clan to be quite honorable and appropriate, though there is the idea that they'd consider Absorbing a Clan currently in a fight for its life to be dubious... but then again, I imagine after the way the Jaguars acted towards the Adders during their Absorption of the Mongooses, there'd be a certain poetic justice in a Clan Absorbing the Jaguars while they're fighting against the SLDF.
« Last Edit: 09 April 2024, 16:14:49 by tassa_kay »
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ColBosch

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #862 on: 09 April 2024, 16:21:48 »
As for it being "honorless", I disagree: Clan honor would consider an Absorption against a weak Clan to be quite honorable and appropriate.

Yep. You're taking resources wasted on weaklings who'd just squander them pointlessly.

That said, I think the other Clans didn't bother Absorbing the Jags because, frankly, nobody else liked them very much. In a society of jerks and bullies, the Jaguars were bad enough to piss everyone off. It's why I have some hope for the reborn Clan; I think it'd be a lot of fun to see them try to stick to strict honor rules while trying to avoid becoming hypocritical dingbats.
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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #863 on: 09 April 2024, 22:17:30 »
I think more pragmaticly... the Inner Sphere had seemingly targeted the smoke Jaguars for annialation, would you really want to risk an absorbtion and suddenly see all those guns turned on you?
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ColBosch

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #864 on: 09 April 2024, 22:35:10 »
I think more pragmaticly... the Inner Sphere had seemingly targeted the smoke Jaguars for annialation, would you really want to risk an absorbtion and suddenly see all those guns turned on you?

Probably a bit from every column. Sometimes things are complicated.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #865 on: 10 April 2024, 08:09:54 »
He is indeed mentioned as a tactical genius in Grave Covenant, and for some reason the people there equate Tactical Genius with Strategic Dunce. There are a couple of write ups where he is referred to as a Strategic Genius, but for the most part it isn't mentioned. Or contradicted, at least, explicitly.

Consistency has ever been a problem and the same lack of information that lets players infer their own interpretation of the Jaguars also works for authors. Which explains the  somewhat contradictory stance on artillery and freebirth troops, amongst others.

Reading a bit between the lines, and trying to make sense of all the issues involved, my reading would be that Lincoln Osis was indeed a tactical and strategic genius. The IS feared an Osis led invasion and did so with cause. As ER62 says, he would have been a terrifying war leader

Where he failed...and what caused him to make mistakes...was his personality. He was a glory hound, an ego maniac and he lacked confidence in himself. He was as likely to make a decision based upon how he believed it would reflect back on him as he was to make one based on tactical or strategic values. An example is when he tried to emulate Howell on Tukayyid or tried to shift the blame for the failures of Luthien and Tukayyid, or ordered the Sixth to abandon its positions simply because be felt defensive tactics would make him look bad. He was a Khan able to sacrifice his own Clan to make himself look good.

There are also a couple of scenes which make me think he was losing support within the Clan....that would make sense given a string of high profile failures during his tenure and the blatant corruption he showed by retaining the Khanship after bring elected ilKhan, but it could also just be the way I read it. If so, he would be under a lot of pressure to maintain support inside the Clan as his supporters melted away.

So...whether he was a strategic genius or not would depend on how much of his ego and insecurity he could put aside.

Which...if he were winning...would be easy to do, and so make him doubly dangerous. Its one reason why an Osis led invasion was considered so dangerous for the IS.

But...when losing...putting his ego aside would be difficult, and he would increasingly make decisions based on his own need for glory and political security. Making him a huge liability for his own Clan during Bulldog and Serpent. Which he was.

But as I said, that's my reading and the info we have is vague enough others are possible. But I like this as it provides, to me, a better explanation for the Jaguars collapse than "they were so unprepared for the invasion they had spent years preparing for and would have launched months previously that they armed themselves with guns"

Do we have any canon examples of challenges to be osis leadership of the clan?

Gaiiten

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #866 on: 10 April 2024, 09:43:07 »
That said, I think the other Clans didn't bother Absorbing the Jags because, frankly, nobody else liked them very much. In a society of jerks and bullies, the Jaguars were bad enough to piss everyone off. It's why I have some hope for the reborn Clan; I think it'd be a lot of fun to see them try to stick to strict honor rules while trying to avoid becoming hypocritical dingbats.
The Jaguars did have something very precious: an invasion corridor in the Inner Sphere.
Furthermore, quite a number of enclaves on some Homeworlds planets, an excellent R&D for military gear, strong bloodlines.

I think the Home Clans might have tried to absorb the Jaguars. The winner could have the right of the Jaguar`s invasion right.

What Clan could have tried?
IMHO Hell`s Horses, Goliath Scorpion and Star Adders would have been strong enough.
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tassa_kay

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #867 on: 10 April 2024, 09:46:51 »
The Jaguars did have something very precious: an invasion corridor in the Inner Sphere.

I think the Home Clans might have tried to absorb the Jaguars. The winner could have the right of the Jaguar`s invasion right.

Going by your original suggestion of the Absorption occurring when Huntress was invaded, there was no invasion corridor left, so that's a moot point.

Quote
What Clan could have tried?
IMHO Hell`s Horses, Goliath Scorpion and Star Adders would have been strong enough.

And again going by your original suggestion, any Clan would've been strong enough, seeing as the Jaguars' remaining military at that time was a joke.
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Gaiiten

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #868 on: 10 April 2024, 10:30:34 »
Going by your original suggestion of the Absorption occurring when Huntress was invaded, there was no invasion corridor left, so that's a moot point.
While no corridor was left, the fact is that there were four invasion corridors. The Clan which would have absorbed the Jaguars, must have attacked this corridor. A disadvantage, but nevertheless, they could be part of the Invasion.

Quote
And again going by your original suggestion, any Clan would've been strong enough, seeing as the Jaguars' remaining military at that time was a joke.
Besides military might, the Clans I mentioned were also political strong.
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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #869 on: 10 April 2024, 10:46:34 »
While no corridor was left, the fact is that there were four invasion corridors. The Clan which would have absorbed the Jaguars, must have attacked this corridor. A disadvantage, but nevertheless, they could be part of the Invasion.

A Clan that wins the Absorption bid would be attacking the Jaguars' existing assets, not assets they used to have. There might be an argument that they'd also win the Jaguars' rights to have an invasion corridor, but it's a flimsy one IMO.

Quote
Besides military might, the Clans I mentioned were also political strong.

Which has nothing to do with their chances of winning the right to Absorb another Clan. Absorptions are bid upon, per ER: Golden Century, with the right going to the Clan that bids the lowest. And at the point where Huntress is taken by the SLDF, literally any Clan would be able to bid and stand an excellent chance of pulling it off. 
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