Author Topic: Adding in Arty  (Read 4148 times)

Cannonshop

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #30 on: 16 April 2024, 11:46:34 »
We've only had to send one player packing and it was because he argued over rules continually. I've talked about him in another thread and, as a group, we decided it was best if he wasn't playing with us anymore.

But, you're correct, the rule books can be tough to navigate. We do our best to post up specific pages within the books and to lay out stuff in detail, on the FB page and via a group chat.

Just be careful, and thorough.  I recommend printing those specific pages out, and putting them in hand-out folders on game day if you're going to bring Artillery in.  It's already sometimes a pain in the ass, but having someone have to bring up the PDF or a website or Facebook page mid-game? isn't going to make the transition smoother.  On the other hand, physical copy is often very good for settling people down, and if it's the same physical copy for everyone? even better. 
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #31 on: 16 April 2024, 12:30:11 »
There are three or four of us that bring Total Warfare and Tac Ops every week. And, all of us have PDF copies of the rules. We started posting up rules for people to look at so that they'd be prepared when they came to play.  For example, I posted up the rules for TAG and SG IDF (including the BV calculations) the week before I first played it, in an effort to head off any argument about it. TAG and SG IDF is actually what got our PITA player booted: he lost his mind when he got thrashed with SG ammo . We pointed out the rules to him repeatedly but he was a lost cause.

Cannonshop

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #32 on: 17 April 2024, 08:14:19 »
There are three or four of us that bring Total Warfare and Tac Ops every week. And, all of us have PDF copies of the rules. We started posting up rules for people to look at so that they'd be prepared when they came to play.  For example, I posted up the rules for TAG and SG IDF (including the BV calculations) the week before I first played it, in an effort to head off any argument about it. TAG and SG IDF is actually what got our PITA player booted: he lost his mind when he got thrashed with SG ammo . We pointed out the rules to him repeatedly but he was a lost cause.

Difference being that artillery's got the 'scattered around pell mell in the rulebooks' problem like everything else, but even when it isn't?  It adds time and falls outside the normal order often enough that even groups that are used to it complain about time lag and complexity.

Thus why I mentioned what I did-having the rules your gruop's GOING to use in a separated, condensed, and accessible format that doesn't include the parts you're NOT going to use.

IOW controlling feature creep and options for the introduction, if nothing else. 
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #33 on: 17 April 2024, 10:01:27 »
Difference being that artillery's got the 'scattered around pell mell in the rulebooks' problem like everything else, but even when it isn't?  It adds time and falls outside the normal order often enough that even groups that are used to it complain about time lag and complexity.

Thus why I mentioned what I did-having the rules your gruop's GOING to use in a separated, condensed, and accessible format that doesn't include the parts you're NOT going to use.

IOW controlling feature creep and options for the introduction, if nothing else.

You're right and it's one of the reasons why we've avoided wide-spread arty (and some other tech): the rules are scattered. We do our best to make sure that rules are nailed down across the board, to avoid the game lag and crunchiness. And, also to make sure that what is being fielded is equitable. We've had a number of players show up with C3 lances but haven't paid for the BV.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #34 on: 17 April 2024, 11:55:57 »
Anyway, what would be the cheapest solution for the problem OP had faced - to got the good position and shoot anything to death while keep stay on it?

I was think about at least an Arrow IV launcher and shoot down the Inferno-IV missiles, and while it looks doable with only a launcher, but as you know non-homing artillery rounds are terribly inaccurate and it needs a lots of extra effort to fix this, thus it won't be so effective per its cost. Not to mention that Arrow IV is the most expensive artillery class in BV - save only to cruise missile, or maybe capital weapon if you add bombardment via (sub)capital weapon on this. And the fire may block your way too, for you cannot make sure that it hits the correct hex.

Smoke could be an option to buy some time to close the gap, but that could be a global answer for any long ranged threats, and the same smoke also protect them from your shots meanwhile as well. Also you do need many tubes to make a good smoke wall.

Shoot some mines on the possible positions for camp by artillery would be doable but the density per the BV cost would be pathetic. It is also doable to throw some mine bombs by ASF too and it will make the more thick minefield but those bombs could be fuel air bombs that destroys the enemy directly so it isn't a good option either.

So what would be cost efficient one, that is also easy to field?
« Last Edit: 17 April 2024, 11:58:03 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

Cannonshop

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #35 on: 17 April 2024, 12:16:30 »
Anyway, what would be the cheapest solution for the problem OP had faced - to got the good position and shoot anything to death while keep stay on it?

I was think about at least an Arrow IV launcher and shoot down the Inferno-IV missiles, and while it looks doable with only a launcher, but as you know non-homing artillery rounds are terribly inaccurate and it needs a lots of extra effort to fix this, thus it won't be so effective per its cost. Not to mention that Arrow IV is the most expensive artillery class in BV - save only to cruise missile, or maybe capital weapon if you add bombardment via (sub)capital weapon on this. And the fire may block your way too, for you cannot make sure that it hits the correct hex.

Smoke could be an option to buy some time to close the gap, but that could be a global answer for any long ranged threats, and the same smoke also protect them from your shots meanwhile as well. Also you do need many tubes to make a good smoke wall.

Shoot some mines on the possible positions for camp by artillery would be doable but the density per the BV cost would be pathetic. It is also doable to throw some mine bombs by ASF too and it will make the more thick minefield but those bombs could be fuel air bombs that destroys the enemy directly so it isn't a good option either.

So what would be cost efficient one, that is also easy to field?

Send 'mechs, or use airstrikes.  Artillery rules are neither simple, nor cheap if you're not very conversant with them in a playing environment with players who know the systems.

and can you cite the rules that let you use artillery to shoot down artillery??  Because I'm pretty sure those options post-date MY time playtesting, and by a lot.

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OatsAndHall

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #36 on: 17 April 2024, 12:22:46 »
Anyway, what would be the cheapest solution for the problem OP had faced - to got the good position and shoot anything to death while keep stay on it?

I was think about at least an Arrow IV launcher and shoot down the Inferno-IV missiles, and while it looks doable with only a launcher, but as you know non-homing artillery rounds are terribly inaccurate and it needs a lots of extra effort to fix this, thus it won't be so effective per its cost. Not to mention that Arrow IV is the most expensive artillery class in BV - save only to cruise missile, or maybe capital weapon if you add bombardment via (sub)capital weapon on this. And the fire may block your way too, for you cannot make sure that it hits the correct hex.

Smoke could be an option to buy some time to close the gap, but that could be a global answer for any long ranged threats, and the same smoke also protect them from your shots meanwhile as well. Also you do need many tubes to make a good smoke wall.

Shoot some mines on the possible positions for camp by artillery would be doable but the density per the BV cost would be pathetic. It is also doable to throw some mine bombs by ASF too and it will make the more thick minefield but those bombs could be fuel air bombs that destroys the enemy directly so it isn't a good option either.


So what would be cost efficient one, that is also easy to field?

We field smoke consistently as it's easy and effective. Thunder LRMs are becoming more common as well; dumping some mines in those camping spots makes things fun and interesting.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #37 on: 17 April 2024, 18:35:23 »
Send 'mechs, or use airstrikes.  Artillery rules are neither simple, nor cheap if you're not very conversant with them in a playing environment with players who know the systems.

and can you cite the rules that let you use artillery to shoot down artillery??  Because I'm pretty sure those options post-date MY time playtesting, and by a lot.



It seems that you didn't read the OP's situation at all, did you? Did you misunderstood it and confuse it with 'how to deal with artillery battery', right? Since you have mentioned counter battery fire, which is no one's interest on this topic at all and is totally out of topic too but that was come from all of sudden.

We field smoke consistently as it's easy and effective. Thunder LRMs are becoming more common as well; dumping some mines in those camping spots makes things fun and interesting.

Interesting. Does thunder LRM even works? I assumed that those campers are usually have the superior range and capable of having some odds to even hit the target on their long range bracket, but will the opponent even allowed to shoot the LRM before they are reach to the ideal camping spots in the first place? Since they are usually able to grab the ideal camping spot that would be usually not too far with their starting point despite of their slower speed(you said heavy/assault so they won't be so fast) and I think that they will be there before the fire of the first thunder LRM to deny this. Non-command-Detonated minefields never detonates while the unit is nothing but stay still on it. Unless it's changed on new TO, but what I have is the old one so I cannot confirm. But I doubt that it was changed.

Send some fast units to shoot the LRM during they are run to the spot won't be so viable either - even with running they are expected to have long ranged weapons anyways, and are have good accuracy to aim down those units attempt to harrass them. But will smokes protects them and allows to do their job? But as you know weapon delivered minefield needs a LOT of tubes to be effective. even with thunder-augmented round(which is the most efficient way to cover the area, for while the normal thunder covers a hex with 100% of density, augmented one covers seven hexes with 50% of density each) you gonna need lots of shots, which is not so easily got from those fast but lighter units.

So what was happened about this?


--------------------------

Asides, if aerospace units are available, what about use some fighters to initiate strike attack starting on their back? For most of them would be face toward, shoot down their back cause some damage. Else hurl some bombs does something, if they are stick together.

DaevaHuG0

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #38 on: 17 April 2024, 20:07:42 »
Vibromines detonate prematurely when a unit move, a 50 ton mech would set them off from 3 hexes away if they're dialed to a 20 ton trigger weight of I'm remembering right. Only weakness is winning initiative since your opponent can move the unit out of the minefield before something can trigger the vibromines.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #39 on: 18 April 2024, 04:02:28 »
Vibromines detonate prematurely when a unit move, a 50 ton mech would set them off from 3 hexes away if they're dialed to a 20 ton trigger weight of I'm remembering right. Only weakness is winning initiative since your opponent can move the unit out of the minefield before something can trigger the vibromines.

That's clever. Although the problem is how to get there and trigger this, but anyway the point is to makes them out of that specific hex they are camping, so whatever the opponent's units are moves first to get out of there or not it won't matter.

OatsAndHall

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #40 on: 18 April 2024, 08:34:48 »
It seems that you didn't read the OP's situation at all, did you? Did you misunderstood it and confuse it with 'how to deal with artillery battery', right? Since you have mentioned counter battery fire, which is no one's interest on this topic at all and is totally out of topic too but that was come from all of sudden.

Interesting. Does thunder LRM even works? I assumed that those campers are usually have the superior range and capable of having some odds to even hit the target on their long range bracket, but will the opponent even allowed to shoot the LRM before they are reach to the ideal camping spots in the first place? Since they are usually able to grab the ideal camping spot that would be usually not too far with their starting point despite of their slower speed(you said heavy/assault so they won't be so fast) and I think that they will be there before the fire of the first thunder LRM to deny this. Non-command-Detonated minefields never detonates while the unit is nothing but stay still on it. Unless it's changed on new TO, but what I have is the old one so I cannot confirm. But I doubt that it was changed.

Send some fast units to shoot the LRM during they are run to the spot won't be so viable either - even with running they are expected to have long ranged weapons anyways, and are have good accuracy to aim down those units attempt to harrass them. But will smokes protects them and allows to do their job? But as you know weapon delivered minefield needs a LOT of tubes to be effective. even with thunder-augmented round(which is the most efficient way to cover the area, for while the normal thunder covers a hex with 100% of density, augmented one covers seven hexes with 50% of density each) you gonna need lots of shots, which is not so easily got from those fast but lighter units.

So what was happened about this?


--------------------------

Asides, if aerospace units are available, what about use some fighters to initiate strike attack starting on their back? For most of them would be face toward, shoot down their back cause some damage. Else hurl some bombs does something, if they are stick together.

Cavalry VTOLs outfitted with Thunder LRMs do the trick. They can get within short range of the good camping spots quickly and then (hopefully) get out without being mauled.

Cannonshop

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #41 on: 18 April 2024, 09:00:13 »
Cavalry VTOLs outfitted with Thunder LRMs do the trick. They can get within short range of the good camping spots quickly and then (hopefully) get out without being mauled.

That may take an LRM or MML variant, iirc the stock Cavalry is an SRM barge.

The H-8 has an LRM 10, and that might give a decent spread of mines, esp. since they do stack if you use multiples.

Indirect firing LRM carriers full of Thunders works too, and the scatter's at least controllable.

Let's see...H-7 LRM variant might work

Striker light tanks can do it with THEIR LRM rack.

(what else? hmmmm)

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Charistoph

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #42 on: 18 April 2024, 09:31:35 »
There are a LOT of LRM boats in the Combat Vehicles section besides the LRM Carrier (though, the LRM Carrier is the most commonly known).

Hunter, Hetzer, Bulldog, Scorpion, Brutus, Harasser, Ontos, and Partisan all have LRM variants.  And that's not including those which actually come with LRMs in their profile like the Rhino and Sturmfeur.

Still, nothing has the maneuverability on the battlefield of a VTOL.

Mine Dispensers might work as well, if you can find a VTOL with them.  They're 2 shot systems and drop like bombs for them, but could prove interesting.  They do put the unit dispensing the mines in to an awkward position, though.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #43 on: 18 April 2024, 10:03:34 »
That may take an LRM or MML variant, iirc the stock Cavalry is an SRM barge.

The H-8 has an LRM 10, and that might give a decent spread of mines, esp. since they do stack if you use multiples.

Indirect firing LRM carriers full of Thunders works too, and the scatter's at least controllable.

Let's see...H-7 LRM variant might work

Striker light tanks can do it with THEIR LRM rack.

(what else? hmmmm)

I use the 3055 LRM variant or the 3059 TAG/LRM variant (I don't know the formal designations, lol). I like to field a lance of them when I can as they're versatile.

Paul

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #44 on: 18 April 2024, 10:19:05 »
That's clever. Although the problem is how to get there and trigger this, but anyway the point is to makes them out of that specific hex they are camping, so whatever the opponent's units are moves first to get out of there or not it won't matter.

The use would be to mine the choice camping hexes before their (likely not too fast) Mechs get there. Not the best way to prevent/punish camping, but it does add some potential opportunity cost.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #45 on: 18 April 2024, 11:43:18 »
Cavalry VTOLs outfitted with Thunder LRMs do the trick. They can get within short range of the good camping spots quickly and then (hopefully) get out without being mauled.

That's a secret of the magic, then. It means I didn't need to put aside thunder LRM as an option.

The use would be to mine the choice camping hexes before their (likely not too fast) Mechs get there. Not the best way to prevent/punish camping, but it does add some potential opportunity cost.

Well for the mine on the start of the game normal mine would be better. Else depend on the set weight it could be already detonated for their arrival. Although vibrabomb will detonates if it got the sound, while the normal mines have chance to not detonates.

idea weenie

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #46 on: 18 April 2024, 15:32:55 »
Vibromines detonate prematurely when a unit move, a 50 ton mech would set them off from 3 hexes away if they're dialed to a 20 ton trigger weight of I'm remembering right. Only weakness is winning initiative since your opponent can move the unit out of the minefield before something can trigger the vibromines.

They're also useful to 'filter' the enemy forces.  If you send your 20- & 30-ton scouts across a field set for 50 tons the mines will not detonate, but when the enemy 55-tonner gets in the hex the mines will detonate.

They are also useful to get intel on enemy units.  Set a 5-pt minefield for 40 tons, and see how close the nearest enemy unit is when the field detonates.  That will tell you how heavy that enemy unit is.  Useful if you need to know if that is a 75-ton Marauder or a 100-ton Marauder-2.

OatsAndHall

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #47 on: 19 April 2024, 09:18:21 »
That's a secret of the magic, then. It means I didn't need to put aside thunder LRM as an option.

Well for the mine on the start of the game normal mine would be better. Else depend on the set weight it could be already detonated for their arrival. Although vibrabomb will detonates if it got the sound, while the normal mines have chance to not detonates.

I field a lance of VTOLs consistently, assuming the game parameters allow me to do so. I've found that they're exceptionally versatile, due to their mobility. Even more so if I put a quality pilot in each one and I don't have to worry about side-slipping when moving at flank speed. That lance of VTOLs has turned the tide for me in quite a few games.

General308

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #48 on: 19 April 2024, 14:01:14 »
My regular group has tinkered around with arty a few times, with mixed responses. Some of our players really want to play with it more often as it discourages heavy/assault "campers" raising hell. On the flip side of the coin, there's folks who like playing with these types of sniper/over watch units. I tend to fall in the latter group as I feel like it speeds up our games a bit, especially as our group has developed a proclivity towards light and medium jumpers. I like having the ability to stop a big boy in elevated cover and make those bouncy mediums and lights a little wary.

I've made the argument that we don't necessarily need straight arty as IDF provides the similar results but that doesn't seem to be a big selling point. I love using it and do so regularly but I'm the only player in the group that ties it into a force on a regular basis.

What are some other ways one can counter "campers" without just dropping arty shells on their heads?

Am I reading right.  You use the "Overwatch rules"  others want to use arty as a counter and you would prefer them not use those rules?

OatsAndHall

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #49 on: 19 April 2024, 14:41:57 »
Am I reading right.  You use the "Overwatch rules"  others want to use arty as a counter and you would prefer them not use those rules?

No, my post wasn't that cut and dry and neither is my intent. If I wanted to keep my "campers" safe, I wouldn't be asking for alternative methods for dealing with the tactic. As has been pointed out and discussed, arty is crunchy and adds time onto the game.  And... My gaming group will spam it (without necessarily understanding the rules), if allowed to, which makes things crunchier and more time consuming. I want other tactics, weapons, rules (etc) for dealing with campers that are more streamlined.

General308

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #50 on: 19 April 2024, 16:47:33 »
No, my post wasn't that cut and dry and neither is my intent. If I wanted to keep my "campers" safe, I wouldn't be asking for alternative methods for dealing with the tactic. As has been pointed out and discussed, arty is crunchy and adds time onto the game.  And... My gaming group will spam it (without necessarily understanding the rules), if allowed to, which makes things crunchier and more time consuming. I want other tactics, weapons, rules (etc) for dealing with campers that are more streamlined.

Well the reason I asked that way Is you mentioned that one of the reason you used the overwatch is because a lot of players you play with use fast and light meduims.   And those fast units that can flank are a major way that you can deal with campers by getting in the rear arc.  But in your case you have the overwatch rule as well.   So I would suggest not using the overwatch rule and let those speed guys do what they do to deal with campers if you don't want artillery in the game.    I know you said the overwatch feels like it speeds your game up.  And you are right because if you take away the ablity to flank campers your enemy has problems.   

Colt Ward

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #51 on: 20 April 2024, 13:50:56 »
I have watched this and was not sure about joining in b/c it ends up going the same way often . . .

FIRST for artillery use I have not seen 2 important factors mentioned . . . pre-plotted hexes and adjusting fires.

I will address these in reverse order . . . adjusting fires is a important factor in the tactical use of artillery as it allows you to gain accuracy firing at a target.  The earlier mention of using artillery to make a "wall" to keep enemy units from passing through the 'beaten zone' (technical term) is a IRL tactic (but it makes infantry & cav pucker . . . just how good was the quality control on shells/propellant?  Are those Fat, Dry, & Comfy arses actually putting in the numbers right?) that has been used in multiple battles in history.  But you need to be 'mostly' accurate to hit that zone and as the person who suggested it said you need to have fast forces to exploit that opening you create.

This is also why I favor artillery units with deeper ammo bins, think Sniper is the best, and use Sniper/Thumper almost exclusively for unguided munitions.  The 5 rounds a ton you get with A4 & Long Tom just IMO does not let take those ranging shots.  A TAV with a ton of smoke is useful for throwing that smoke but also "finding" that hex you want to hit as long as it can be observed to get the -1 TH for each follow on shot.

Pre-plotted hexes are easy . . . the old MM servers had the default of 4 hexes pre-plotted that were auto-hits for your artillery.  This made it very easy to deal with the 'best' camping spot for your opponent.  It can do the same for table top- you can select the woods on a hill, or to be devious the gap between some hills they will have to move through to get to the middle of the map.  But this depends on if your table is using this part of artillery.

Finally some of the things I did not see address for artillery options . . . and usually not done on tables- can you destroy or set on fire buildings/woods?  If so you can of course blast away the buildings/woods and make rubble hexes.  While a hex of woods on fire is not going to deter a Thunderhawk (or a Gargoyle Prime . . . I once had someone hit a Gargoyle with the old inferno rules), it can most other things b/c your long range snipers mix ERPPC/ERLL with Gauss or LRMs.


But to address some generic points for the OP principles of deployment in artillery & AA are much the same.  You want mass, mix, mobility, and integration . . . integration does not really count in BT b/c for the most part we do not factor in the ability to clearly communicate between spotters & guns nor is there a good means of setting up combined arms vs distinct forces.  My favorite example of this is the nova vs a star of Omnis & a star of BA.  In table top- TW or AS- terms both have the same abilities effectiveness but the Nova should outperform the two individual stars that are working together.

Mobility is a wash too though I prefer it b/c I usually have my artillery on the battlefield.  It used to be more handy to make 'adjustments' but can still be done between indirect fire over 17 hexes and then moving forward the next turn to indirect or if the artillery unit is sturdy enough, direct fire the same location.  If I was 'designing' a combat command I would of course prefer self-propelled artillery and one of the things I miss from MWDA's options is the ability to tow guns . . . though now we have trailers (though unfortunately all the old vehicles have no 'hitch' though it is a standard bit of design . . . ) which means you can move artillery strategically with cargo vehicles.

Leaves you with mass- as in massing guns- and mix.  Massing the guns is pretty self-explanatory but the key factor for BT table top is that you get a sufficient amount of guns for the BV used and map size.  IF you are good with artillery AND spend some BV (aka gunners) you can get by with less guns.  IMO the minimum is three for most people and four is the safest.  The least I will personally bring is two- and those generally have to be two different units.  Yeah, the Demolisher A4 & Naga are useful with their two pieces on the same unit but it just invites Murphy to play with the 'random' damage you get.  The other thing I would do with just 2 artillery units is use field guns.  The BV on these is LOW but they only have 1 ton of ammo per gun and IIRC the field gun artillery has to use all the same type around- IE, no having a 2 Thumper field gun platoon with 1 ton HE and 1 ton Copperheads.

This leaves mix, which IRL is about a mix of systems so you get the same sort of synergy combined arms gets you in a maneuver unit.  IRL that means ideally you would like tube, mortar, rocket, and perhaps even missile artillery though the later has faded in modern times as rockets became more useful.  For the purposes of BT that applies to the type of rounds.  Look at the Ballista SP Artillery Tank- 3/5, decent armor, Sniper w/3 tons of ammo- it makes it very easy to mix artillery options.  With my 3 'gun' minimum I get 9 options for munitions- say each SP gun gets 1 ton HE, SP gun A gets a ton of cluster, SP gun B gets a ton of Copperheads, SP Gun C gets a ton of Fuel Air Explosion (there you go Daryk), and you still have 1 ton on each SP gun to customize.  IIRC, the HE round also works for AA duty?

Or you have 2 Ballistas and get something with a single A4 launcher that has more than 3 tons of ammo- HE, Inferno, FASCAM.  Now you can blast, smoke, burn, mine, and go for the head hit in one package.

But other ideas for the OP- like I said, can you catch woods on fire?  Burn them out of the camping spots.  Someone mentioned Thunder Mines, and that is a good option, just get the density to 20 for each of those expected camping hexes and they will have to risk a PSR to get to the camping spot . . . and maybe internal damage to the leg.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #52 on: 21 April 2024, 05:34:49 »
Well at least it is sure that thunder rounds for artillery is not something worth considering, for it only puts mines on a single hex, with the inaccurate artillery attack. Moreover its density cannot be augmented by the other thunder rounds, which means it is not something even usable unless you have designated the exact hex you want to deliver the mine by the autohit hex already but you don't need all the other hex other than those autohit hexes to be have any mines at all. Thunder-augmented of LRM, and thunder bumbs are should be what you need to consider instead. Thunder bomb would be not that tasty option consider the bomb rack could be filled with the small fuel air bombs instead, though, but is still more realistic solution than the artillery.

Yes thunder rounds of artillery does shoots faster than the latter options(because the range of the artillery is far longer than the others), but that would be meaningful only if you have at least 10+ rounds of free shootings on the battlefield before the game begins - and I wonder that just mere 10+ rounds would be enough consider the artillery are nothing but one of the considering option for dispatch the campers from their camping spots and those shouldn't be expensive.

And although I had said already, but what about inferno IV missiles? It set ablaze the hex it hits and all adjacent hexes for the rest of the game. And since its nature of burn and also generating smokes means you don't required to be quite accurate. Perhaps only just a single or two lauchers could results meaningful output if you just want the opponent to be out of their camping spots.

OatsAndHall

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #53 on: 24 April 2024, 12:22:28 »
Well the reason I asked that way Is you mentioned that one of the reason you used the overwatch is because a lot of players you play with use fast and light meduims.   And those fast units that can flank are a major way that you can deal with campers by getting in the rear arc.  But in your case you have the overwatch rule as well.   So I would suggest not using the overwatch rule and let those speed guys do what they do to deal with campers if you don't want artillery in the game.    I know you said the overwatch feels like it speeds your game up.  And you are right because if you take away the ablity to flank campers your enemy has problems.   

What is the "overwatch rule"? When I said we play with overwatch units, I basically just meant we park mechs with ranged weapons in suitable terrain and use them as snipers (or "overwatch"). And, yes, you're correct, fast mediums and lights make life tough for those units. But, IME, a good counter to fast movers is to park a big boy and pull better firing equations.

General308

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #54 on: 24 April 2024, 16:10:57 »
What is the "overwatch rule"? When I said we play with overwatch units, I basically just meant we park mechs with ranged weapons in suitable terrain and use them as snipers (or "overwatch"). And, yes, you're correct, fast mediums and lights make life tough for those units. But, IME, a good counter to fast movers is to park a big boy and pull better firing equations.


That is why I asked my first question to "overwatch" is a rule in TW now it is pretty clear you are not using that rule....  Quick question what size battlefields do you play one?  IE how many maps do you usually use?

maxcarrion

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #55 on: 25 April 2024, 04:49:26 »
Right, I'm going to have a quick go at answering the original question (what options, other than arty, are effective against a heavy hill camper) rather than wading into the how to use arty discussion that this seems to have become.

The answer, as always, is - it depends on what you want to do, how you want to achieve it, and what else is going on.  I'd say you can split the options into 3 categories of choices.  Assuming you have an enemy with good long range firepower in an elevated and covered position you can.

1 - mitigate it.  Your opponent has invested significantly in this "sniper", if you can stay out of it's way you can achieve local superiority elsewhere.  Break lines of sight, offer only poor shots, add smoke, make the conflict happen where the sniper cannot see it/significantly affect it.  This expensive investment now has less affect on the encounter than it's cost justifies and it's commander must either accept this loss of effectiveness or surrender the high ground to move to a less defensive position where they can affect the encounter.

2 - Assault it.  A long range mech on a hill can be efficiently overpowered by short range mechs on the same hill.  Using good counters is especially effective.  For example an AWS-8Q isolated on a hill on overwatch is in trouble if a fast VTOL squadron drops 8 platoons of jump infantry on the same hill.  Those PPCs suck against PBI and while the armour will hold up a while the AWS will get quickly ripped to shreds by close range infantry fire, especially if it refuses to move. 

3 - out shoot it.  Take advantage of it's limitations to get advantages in a ranged firefight, it has ERLL, you use LRMs at range 21, it has PPCs, you wheel some field guns into range and let them kill tiny numbers of infantry while hammering them with autocannons, this is where Arty comes in, or Ortillery, or bombs or IDF LRMs, or using C3 snipers with a hard to hit spotter, or fast moving VTOLS plinking at long range that make them impossible to hit.  Are they using LRMs?  Offer them terrible target numbers and AMS and watch them empty their ammo bins for almost no damage or refuse to fire while you roll 11+s with energy weapons in return.

If they have fixed on a strategy, turn it to your advantage.  If this gives you the opportunity to divide and conquer, take it.  If you can mitigate enemy assets for minimal cost, do it.  If your opposition becomes static, rearrange your forces to offer efficient counters.  Potentially there is opportunity to play the objective without having to engage some enemies, if so, achieve the objective and withdraw.

OatsAndHall

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #56 on: 25 April 2024, 08:45:46 »

That is why I asked my first question to "overwatch" is a rule in TW now it is pretty clear you are not using that rule....  Quick question what size battlefields do you play one?  IE how many maps do you usually use?

We typically combined two of Catalyst's neoprene battle mats.

General308

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Re: Adding in Arty
« Reply #57 on: 25 April 2024, 09:47:52 »
We typically combined two of Catalyst's neoprene battle mats.

So just a suggestion trying a larger battlefield.  Really on such a small battlefield it is a lot easier to camp at the back were faster units can not flank as well.  Adding say two more of those matts will create a larger field and make it harder for a few units to camp at the back without getting flanked and eating shots in the rear armor.   If you open your play area up to more manuvering it will give other units a chance to deal with the campers.

Now I would use some of those lights your people like to use and pair it with some sort of LRM carrier tank hiding behind  cover and bring in indirect fire on the campers