Star League - Third Time's a Charm

[Maingunnery]

Yeah I LIKE the great houses, let's not turn them into an irrelevant sideshow thankyouverymuch.

But just think of them as charismatic resistance leaders.  :wink:

[Metallgewitter]

The question would be what those clans do that have permanent nations? The Wolves are on the verge of loosing at least huge chunks of their nation. And the Bears have heavy hints of getting their nose bloodied. Let's say the Ravens enter into the service of the Ilkhan but the Federated sunjs decide to sweep into the Outworld alliance. A nation without much in terms of military power (not to mention that the AFFS is battle hardened now). All Clans have huge stakes in this battle and could loose a lot. Scipio Africanus startegy of taking the war to the enemies doorstep is still viable all those thousands of years later. Or do yxou think alaric can keep them in line when their own nations get ravaged?

Also, after reading through Legends 2 and the mention of educational material titled "Star League English and  me: the guide to proper language for lower castes". Do you think the Ilclan would try to eradicate all languages currently spoken on Terra? Terra has the most diverse languages in the entire IS. I can't imagine they would try to erase this cultural mark of Terra as Nicolas did all those years ago in the Kerensky Cluster especially with Star League English being the lingua franca of Terra anyway

[Hellraiser]

Also, after reading through Legends 2 and the mention of educational material titled "Star League English and  me: the guide to proper language for lower castes".

Are you talking about "Star League English, a Bondsman's Guide to avoiding contractions" or something like that, by Michelle Holister, I think?
Which seems to be a book written by an IS native that was captured by the Falcons per the fluff?
That doesn't seem to be a clan thing but instead a soldier/Ex-Holostar's product after being captured.
And IIRC it dates to the civil war/jihad era, not something new from iLClan.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

The question would be what those clans do that have permanent nations? The Wolves are on the verge of loosing at least huge chunks of their nation. And the Bears have heavy hints of getting their nose bloodied. Let's say the Ravens enter into the service of the Ilkhan but the Federated sunjs decide to sweep into the Outworld alliance. A nation without much in terms of military power (not to mention that the AFFS is battle hardened now). All Clans have huge stakes in this battle and could loose a lot. Scipio Africanus startegy of taking the war to the enemies doorstep is still viable all those thousands of years later. Or do yxou think alaric can keep them in line when their own nations get ravaged?.....

I'm told that McKenna's entry in Legends 2 states that after everything that happened neither of Raven Alliance's neighbors has enough muscle to threaten them (which was the main goal of the whole Plan B after Plan A which entailed schmoozing First Prince Dingus Davion didn't work) plus there are diplomatic links with Combine now

So the Ravens and Outworlders are sitting pretty enough ATM


As for anything English language related it's definitely as lingua franca only (if even that)

Scorpions couldn't replace one language with Star League English and eventually dropped and forgot about the whole thing, there's no way to even try something like that on Terra

Foxes know about Scorpion experience with that kind of project and would tell the Wolves not to bother (if they even need to be told)

[Wrangler]

Clans won't know Star League English if it smacked them in their heads.  Contractions are part of the Star League English, the Clans' brutish version of Star League English is Clan Standard English (No Contractions or Trial of Grievance, Freeborn!)

[Metallgewitter]

Yup the Clans or rather Nicolas Kerensky created his own version of English and bruteforced it onto his people. Basically turning it into an Orwellian society. I think most IS Clans have changed their views on that but probably still demand "proper language". On the other hand it might make secret messages easier when someone uses an obscure Han dialect again *wink wink*

I think the Alliance is somewhat precarious though. The Suns are currently free of war and their troops have real experience. What experience do the Ravens have? Their forces haven't seen that much combat and their support structure is stretched to the limit now that they have reactivated their fleet. And they also took planets from the Suns which most likely stretched their logistics train. Remember they took Milligan in Dominion Divided and right now the Draconis March is now more like an armed camp then a region easy to conquer. And I would assume that Eric will not let the Ravens waltz in like that after he had ejected the Combine with great losses

[Hellraiser]

Yup the Clans or rather Nicolas Kerensky created his own version of English and bruteforced it onto his people.

Did he?
Has it ever been noted as to where the "Anti-Contractions" thing came from?
It's always been an odd thing to see in clan speech when they do things like "Ristar" AKA, "Rising Star", or Aff/Neg,  but can't do CAN'T. 

[BrianDavion]

I'm told that McKenna's entry in Legends 2 states that after everything that happened neither of Raven Alliance's neighbors has enough muscle to threaten them

the exact quote is "By 3152, Caleb and Toranaga were dead, the Snow
Raven fleet was restored, Alliance borders were
expanding, and neither the Draconis Combine nor
the Federated Suns had motive nor military capacity
to pose a threat"

Now... read that again...
"by 3152.... Alliance Borders were expanding.... Neither the DC nor the FS had MOTIVE nor military capacity to pose a threat"

as such given the blatent contridiction here, I think it's safe to say we shouldn't put too much into that

[Hellraiser]

There is a world of difference between Wanting to go to war w/ a Naval Fleet like the Ravens v/s the ability to drown their worlds in troops due to being 5x as large an army.

The Raven fleet will absolutely mess you up, but, the OWA/RA will absolutely be left with nothing but the fleet as every world WOULD fall to FS or DC forces.

[Maingunnery]

Now... read that again...
"by 3152.... Alliance Borders were expanding.... Neither the DC nor the FS had MOTIVE nor military capacity to pose a threat"

as such given the blatent contridiction here, I think it's safe to say we shouldn't put too much into that

Easy solution: Both the DC and the FS had even bigger problems.

[tassa_kay]

It's always been an odd thing to see in clan speech when they do things like "Ristar" AKA, "Rising Star", or Aff/Neg,  but can't do CAN'T.

The Clans, contradictory and hypocritical?! SURELY you jest!  :shocked:

[Metallgewitter]

Easy solution: Both the DC and the FS had even bigger problems.

The DC certainly has (the Ghost Bears)but the Suns should have no real threat at the moment as the Confederatioln is busy with the Wolves (and vice versa)

In terms of the language use, I found this in Operation Klondike page 100:

Language and culture did not escape these changes. The plethora of languages used in the Inner Sphere were relegated to the history books and instead Star League English, already  the  lingua  franca  among  the  exiles,  would  be  the  sole  language  used  in  Clan society.  Use  of  any  other  language  outside  of  an  academic  context  would  be  punished severely,  though  Nicholas  did  allow  a  five-year  transition  period  during  which  punishments would not be enforced. After 1 January 2830, however, the full weight of Clan law would fall upon offenders. Compliance was absolute.

Erasing cultural traits of a nationalistic bent was more problematic. While overt dis-plays were easy to police, governing how people thought and acted was another matter. The  Clan  solution  was  twofold—a  series  of  efforts  to  instill  Clan  values  in  the  citizenry but  also  through  language.  Standardizing  his  new  society  around  the  English  language was not enough for Nicholas. He codified language and grammatical structures in such a way as to straightjacket the thought processes of the people, a tactic familiar to students of  20th  century  literature  wherein  one  work  of  fiction  leant  its  author’s  name  to  a  social paradigm: Orwellian.  (sorry for the long quote)

So it was indeed Nicolas who began the "bruteforcing" of the contractionless language including new words like Seyla, ristar and others onto every person living in Clan space though as it states there was little resistance to this. Buuuuuuut I can't see this happening on Terra anytime soon as there is a freaking war going on right now and there is probably something more urgent like keep recruiting and production quotas up to feed the warmachine to attend to. Plus who can actually enforce this on a planet 10-12 billion people strong?

[Crimson Dynamo]

See, as far as the Suns go, I think DD did a really good job setting the stage for a 2nd Davion Civil War with all the mentions of Erik's higher aspirations and the 'who's loyal to who' passages in a number of the unit and personality write-ups. Maybe the Snow Ravens invading again at the end of the book/Dragon's Tongue campaign will tamper all that down, but the Davions' issues are going to be pretty internal by all appearances.

[Metallgewitter]

Fair point but Legends 2 makes it sound as if Erik will stay around for a while (Heroes of the IlClan eras) or at the very least that the Federated suns won't dissolve into a civil war soon. And I also think that the invasion fo the Ravens (or rather small landgrab) will keep any internal struggles bottled up for now as they have to face this new threat. SApeaking of Living Legends 2 it also sounds as if Othar might just say "Screw this shit" and take the entire empire as his (or perhaps ask the League to join them) considering how it stresses that Othar feels betrayed by Alaric's lack of comitment to the Empire (just ask the Dragoons what supporting Alaric gets you)

[rebs]

It's always been an odd thing to see in clan speech when they do things like "Ristar" AKA, "Rising Star", or Aff/Neg,  but can't do CAN'T. 

The Clans, contradictory and hypocritical?! SURELY you jest!  :shocked:

They actively discriminate against apostrophes.  Apostrophes must be taught that they are loathed and inferior and as such have no standing in SLSE grammar.  :cussing:

[Dragon Cat]

Yeah I LIKE the great houses, let's not turn them into an irrelevant sideshow thankyouverymuch.

You see I like the idea of them being irrelevant but then regaining their stature as time goes on an the new ilClan/3rd Star League cracks and breaks

I just think it would be interesting if the Inner Sphere went through another golden age, and got a facelift making the 3rd League a success would change the dynamics in the Inner Sphere

[Wrangler]

Well, it's hard to say where they're going with this. Part of me thinks there will be some kind of Clan Hegemony or Wolf Empire is joined with Terra and th we becomes the new Hegemony or adding Part of Liao space once the dust settles with that fated encounter.

I believe maybe perhaps all in all everything will be fragmented a bit more and it'll be harder for Nations to solidified as our traditional main factions get reduced but not removed fully. And everything comes under the Dominion of Star League.

If they really are going to have players go through these years of the star league forming they're going to have to decide how gameplay is going to happen if they're not going to skip. Personally I would like to see some kind of time skip get a source book and then move on to another stop point. That would allow development of those time periods without all of us aging away waiting for the game to get to where it's supposed to change everything once Star League is fated to fall

[mikecj]

They actively discriminate against apostrophes.  Apostrophes must be taught that they are loathed and inferior and as such have no standing in SLSE grammar.  :cussing:

The Clans initiated their first ever Trial of Annihilation against the Oxford Comma.  When Alaric conquered Earth, the first thing he did was raze Oxford University.  The Anniversary is a holiday at Cambridge.

Luckily the Cambridge Ampersand has escaped Clan grammatical notice.

[Metallgewitter]

The Clans initiated their first ever Trial of Annihilation against the Oxford Comma.  When Alaric conquered Earth, the first thing he did was raze Oxford University.  The Anniversary is a holiday at Cambridge.

So that is the Final annihilation that one source book mentioned in it's 3250 blurb  :grin:

[rebs]

Funny gray area:  Possessives.   "Khan Alaric's ’Mech". 

The possessive is still a contraction - "Alaric his ’Mech" rendered down to what we would say now.

Sometimes enough is enough even to clan grammarians. 

[Rainbow 6]

It's always puzzled me how the Hell's Horses got away with it.

[Maingunnery]

Funny gray area:  Possessives.   "Khan Alaric's ’Mech". 

The possessive is still a contraction - "Alaric his ’Mech" rendered down to what we would say now.

Sometimes enough is enough even to clan grammarians.

Alternatively, I would not be surprised if in the future the Clans create new words that incorporate possessives.

[rebs]

Haha, they start speaking Anglish!  They just have to go that far or they ain't clan!  azn

[Minemech]

It's always puzzled me how the Hell's Horses got away with it.

The Clans read it as a unique appellative. 

[tassa_kay]

Funny gray area:  Possessives.   "Khan Alaric's ’Mech". 

The possessive is still a contraction

Possessive nouns are not in fact contractions but are different grammatical constructs entirely, which is why the Clans don't take issue with them.

[rebs]

Apostrophes indicate missing letters, making it a contraction by definition.

[tassa_kay]

Apostrophes indicate missing letters, making it a contraction by definition.

No, apostrophes can indicate missing letters ("Emily's going with us"), but don't always ("Emily's raincoat"). The former is a contraction, the latter is not.

[Cannonshop]

With ilKhan's Eyes Only and Trial of Birthright both creeping inexorably closer, let us as a community come together and take stock about:

What do we know for certain about the 3rd League & and ilClan.
What do we suspect?
What do we think will happen.

1)Naval, is irrelevant.  We know this, because the Snow Ravens can field warships at elite status without having to have any training, experience, material support, or real preparation for space operations in seventy years of mothball (14 generations of trueborn cycles).  They can do this, because nobody else has a fleet, or the underpinnings to have a fleet, that isn't already in their (Clan Wolf's) camp.

2) The victories will continue to be just as without-difficulty (as HoTW) and predetermined outcomes will predominate. Name a front, conflict, or battle and the sides involved, and the winner can be determined without reading the text of the scenario.  violations of this, will be cosmetic losses or temporary, or involve irrelevant elements that do not have any significance except existing to die so that the next victory can look slightly glorious.

3.) Everything will angle toward the 3250 blurb.

[BrianDavion]

I sincerly hope you're wrong after the MASSIVE backlash to HOTW I hope the dev team has learned to stop that

[Cannonshop]

I sincerly hope you're wrong after the MASSIVE backlash to HOTW I hope the dev team has learned to stop that

It wasn't massive, and it wasn't impactful.  You're forgetting the backlash against MWDA a bit over 20 years ago now, which did NOT harm the Jihad books in the slightest.

Nor did it really influence them, because this is roughly the same pattern, and it's repeating because that pattern was successful.

The establishing shot was the 3250 material release, and that was done AFTER the direction in editorial for ilClan was already decided, agreed on and codified, HoTW was already in work.

it would cost a HELL of a lot of money and time, and cause major product delays, to alter that.  A bit of online grousing isn't going to change that, esp. when the book(s) sell well with the part of the market that is really important; buyers.

It all comes back to the Benjamins, in the end.  If the books don't sell well, then the company goes out of business, the direction doesn't change, they just cease.

why? because That's how the games market actually works.

this hobby is a passion project, it doesn't actually make that much money, certainly not enough to pull a massive 180 over some bitching in the forums once a direction's been decided and finalized.