[OOG] Battle for Hoff - Queen's Gambit accepted

[sentinemodo]

on the older design, need to read up some more, but I don't feel like changing the designs now, unless you feel that sides are completely unbalanced now.

[sentinemodo]

and hive_angel, it's really silly to roll, for piloting rolls, when your jumping over water. You are not entering water, you're entering hex with water, why would jumping over deep water be more difficult than jumping over depth 1 water, and they incur different piloting roll penalties.

please do agree that even if your interpreation is legal we'll house rule it so that if you walk or run through the water you make piloting rolls, but if you jump over it you only roll for the one you land on.

[hive_angel]

I get your drift. I was jut going over the rules as a battlemech pays 1 MP per hex jumped ignoring terrain costs. (Not sure if ignore piloting rolls, but I assume not). A jumping battlemech still jumps hex by hex I think.
I have no idea as it gets confusing at some point, lol.

Also if I fell I would essentially be hidden so I figured it would no be a total loss.

[sentinemodo]

Jumping is not hex by hex. for several reasons.
1. you cannot jump longer distance than the closest possible path. If you could jump hex by hex, you would be able to jump 5 hexes even if you landed only a hex away. Rules specifically say that you need to take the closest possibel path, and can choose alternatives only when they are equal in length
2. you can jump more the one elevation level if you have enough jumpjets, if you'd be limited to jumping hex by hex (essentially firing one jump-jet after another) you'd be able to change your level only by one per hex.

So, by the above you fire up your jumpjets at once and jump entire way in a single jump.

So, do we agree on dropping your interpretation and ruling that jumping over water do not require piloting roll on every hex?

[sentinemodo]

read those battledroids stats again.
The changes would have to include eveyrthing (internal heatsinks placement for criticals, less weapons for rifleman, six jumpjets for griffin). I wouldn't bother, and leave it as is.

[hive_angel]

Nice on jumping  O0

I'm fine with it on the Battledroids nonsense. Just keep in mind a few of the Widow company mech's permanent damage does not make sense. We will have to tweak at some point.

[sentinemodo]

No problem with having them rectified, feel free to propose the changes. Though the higher skills make them more then good tradeoff.
I haven't hit anything so far.

[sentinemodo]

I wonder, if there is LOS between Archer and Rifleman.
Take a look.

[hive_angel]

It is hard to tell. I moved the Rifleman figuring the third tree would be enough to block LOS. The diagram works fine, but if you figure we mesure LOS from the center of a hex to a center of a hex then draw the line from the center of the mech to the center of the mech it will clip that third tree.

[sentinemodo]

I've assumed you do. I would do the same, and I've drawned the scheme just to check.
also, even if there is LOS between Archer and Rifleman there is no returning LOS (archer is standing in LW).

About middle of the mech vs top level: for determining LOS you always use level of terrain plus level of feature, meaning that we measure form attacker at level 5 (mech is a level 2 feature) against defender at level 2. That's necessary, because there would be no LOS between two mechs that have level 1 hill between them. The line would go exactly through the hill level blocking LOS.

[hive_angel]

Wouldn't the woods the Archer is in just be added to defense and not to the amount of woods in LOS.

I think I understand your second part.

[hive_angel]

Looking at this more

1007 is same level and adjacent to the Rifleman - Intervenes
1006 is not same level of Rifleman or Archer - Does not intervene
1105 is not same level of Rifleman or Archer - Does not intervene

This sucks

[sentinemodo]

IMO, 1006 is on the same level as Rifleman, and by the same definition 1105 is as well.
But given this definition, an elevation 15 vtol, shooting at mech standing at level 0 has lla the trees between them intervening.

I don't understand that part of rules, too well. That's how I came up with the line drawn on two dimentional picture - I think it makes it easy to understand the levels.

[hive_angel]

So how do you prefer to proceed? In theory I was heading for the water which will somewhat put us in the same boat again.

[sentinemodo]

I don't know, I was rereading the rules on LOS and I am as confused as ever about this.
Also it came to me as surprise, that occupied hexes do not count for LOS - which means I could shoot at you warhammer for example when you're staing in the heavy woods last turn. I always played that target hex also take part in blocking LOS - bu tthen I reread my battletech compendium (which was a latest set of rules by then) and even then the target hex terrain didn't blocked LOS, so I don't know ehre did I took that from.

We might ask for intepretations in the rules forum, but this might take a while.

I propose using my simplified chart for determining LOS

[sentinemodo]

I just found out, that while I though I am safe from Warhammer, because the woods should block LOS, I am not actually, and my moves were not as smart as I though them to be :)

[hive_angel]

By your diagram I 'll have to up the AC/5 shots by 1 and remove the LL as the 11 is not worth it yet.

[sentinemodo]

got some answers in ground warfare rules questions forum.
They seem to be inline with your interpretation, and it seems that I had to see that diagram I use in some BattleTech books.

So what do we do?

[sentinemodo]

I posted two weapons declarations, there are no more from me

[hive_angel]

I guess we just go ahead and run with the moves and declarations. I am trying my best with these broke mechs. If you kill of Karensky we will all cry.

Plus your Griffins were facing S at end of movement, so what is there torso twist direction as they cannot be facing N after a Torso twist.

[guardiandashi]

los as I understand it.

you look at the terrain between and including the hex of your target (but ignore the hex the firing unit is in)
each terrain feature has an effective height for los purposes.
trees are elevation 2 (unless super heavy which is 3)
mechs while they stand 2 levels high are considered 1 elevation level high for LOS determination (this is why a mech gains partial cover from a lvl 1 hill)
there is always LOS from adjacent hexes

movement re jumping jumps are considered to be 1 single jump and only touch the underlying terrain at the start and end of the jump

[guardiandashi]

the "permanent and preexisting damage"

this was to incorporate the "feel" of what is called by some of the "mad max" era basically some units would not be fully repaired (typically due to lack of parts or time to complete repairs) this is "pre existing damage"

"permanent damage is what it sounds like under the old repair rules (MechWarrior 1st and or second edition) there are "partial repair effects" these are where you need say an 6+ to completely repair the problem but on a 4+ you can achieve a "partial repair" where there is a consequence for "not doing a good enough job of fixing it"  I always figured it was doing jury rigged repairs, using sub standard (cobbled together parts, and the like) it works (mostly) but isn't "RIGHT" and isn't as good as if it was done correctly.

to use a car analogy the right design would use a 2gallon radiator, but all you could find was this 1-1.5 gallon one, or patching the hole in the radiator you plugged up this part of it so it effectively lost this much capacity etc.

[hive_angel]

Right I understand the pre-existing damage aspect. This scenario is a challenge as I have a wonky Griffin +2 Stingers, versus his 2 perfect Griffin + 1 Wasp. No biggie though. It might have been part of the story which I failed to read yet, just the scenario conditions. lol.

[sentinemodo]

I guess we just go ahead and run with the moves and declarations. I am trying my best with these broke mechs. If you kill of Karensky we will all cry.

so far I have not hit anything, and my crusder is half gone, so my judgement is you're doing fine

Plus your Griffins were facing S at end of movement, so what is there torso twist direction as they cannot be facing N after a Torso twist.

LOL, that's just a notation, I took from you, somehow I though you write, twist Yes/No, then direction Right/Left, then final facing.
So in this case, it's N like No twist

also, I wouldn't be able to shoot Warhammer if I turned North somehow.

[hive_angel]

Oh wait really? Then I would happily shoot you in the back. I thought you turned NE or NW as to use your PPC arm, which in turn is a derp as you are firing your LRM10s.  ;D

[sentinemodo]

As I read the answers in the rules forum, they seem to state, that the LOS is being determined, by the features that are equal or taller than both attacker and defender levl + adjacent and occupied hexes.

This is being done to speed up game play and 'this is game not simulation' and to avoid 'diagrams like the one you had'.

We do have much more time for this game than anyone else in history, so we can afford making elevation diagrams. (there are examples in dead zones in tactical operations).

Going by your last reply, we keep my diagrams in, if you change your mind, just give a head up before next turn.

[sentinemodo]

ok, posted the map after the movements, seems like we roll

[hive_angel]

Fair enough. I think I might have a chance to potentially Kill your griffin, but I would have to have some good rolls so I'll stick to throwing things at your Crusader.

On with the combat rolls.

[sentinemodo]

Yay, I did hit something ! :) Rifleman and griffin

[sentinemodo]

As you post the record sheet, use quoting from my original message, to copy the bbcode