Author Topic: Required military reading at Military academies  (Read 6386 times)

butchbird

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #60 on: 28 December 2023, 15:22:21 »
I agree with you that books written in the 20th century may be"obsolete" by the year 3025, because certain technologies, e.g. Mechs, did not exist back then.

But I offer two points against it:

1) Mechs are scarce. So you maybe have no Mechs in your force that you use to defend a planet, so the old knowledge about how to deploy a tank and infantry-only force may be helpful.

2) The old books will be helpful because certain technologies were lost.
We dont have an F-14 with AWG-9 radar and 6 Phoenix missiles. Or Sidewinder or Sparrow missiles.


The old knowledge (20th century to 31st) will be helpfull, but as helpfull as a book detailing the spanish tercio's use of "pike and shot" era means and tactics would be in a modern conflict. Opens your horizons, can offer basic guidelines, even inspiration...but you can't be "by-the-book" with it. It details a reality that is not your own. Hence, military tactics taught at an academy will tend to favor contemporary means.

A perfect example is the use of the gatling machine-gun during the spanish/american war. I don't remember the exact battle, but basically a lieutenant fresh out of military academy was assigned to the gatling gun section (a relatively new and relatively unknown weapon). What did he rely on? Modern outlook on its use. Played by the book and the gatling ravaged the opposition. Had he used it as ancient roman ballistas, things might have been very different and his career much less successfull.

Of course, back in those days, "industrial warfare" was in its infancy, the number of new processes to wage war to be studied were still limited, the possibilitys far less endless then today...or the 31st century.

In the end, there's only 24 hours in a day and so many years to your youth. If your going to study 5000 years of human conflict, many parts of that will have to be synthesis. Now what will you focus on?

Inevitably, works dealing with 'mech battles, combined arms with 'mechs, dealing with the realities of warfare in the late sucession wars and new technologies and tactics brought by the helm core and clan invasion will eat up a lot of time in the cursus.

Again, as has been clearly established, said cursus will vary immensly, but I cannot imagine a school offering more focus on neo-assyrian then federated suns tactics being seen as THE preferable place to fill in your meager mechwarrior ranks.

"And now I'll show you how to defend yourself from a man who attacks you with fresh fruit!"

Minemech

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #61 on: 28 December 2023, 16:19:48 »
 Expect good, even great works from figures we outside know little or nothing about. Even in the 3rd. Katrina is a believable exception since she was pushing a strong curriculum of reform into the LCAF. Most of the works published from figures we know about likely had a fad, then faded from memory. Then there is the occasional Johann Georg Hamann type whose work is exceptionally brilliant, but for reasons that confound people has his work simply vanish from the mainstream.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #62 on: 28 December 2023, 17:01:56 »
You may be right, because - as far as I know - it was never mentioned how armor of 1985 is different to armor of 3025.
If we go by the known rules, a rifle cannon of the heaviest type still makes damage, but what we dont know is: Do they use the same explosives or are they upgraded?

To describe it: 1985 explosive C-4 wouldnt damage Mech-type armor (because diamond and crystallization based), while the same amount of 3025 (call it) C-25 explosive is the same as ten 210mm  High Explosive artillery shells landing at the same time at the exact same spot.

So, I would say, that if you upgrade the Phoenix missile with 3025 explosives and materials then it would have a high one-shot kill propability.

Primitive BattleMechs walked through a regiment's worth of artillery fire to step on the Captain-General so it goes a bit beyond just better explosives.

The thing is that 20th century weapons aren't supposed to work because people wouldn't shut up about joules of energy and how the game should ACKSHUALLY be played with ranges that limit the game to being played at the bottom of an olympic swimming pool.


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Metallgewitter

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #63 on: 28 December 2023, 17:14:27 »
Now that you are talking about new weapons and how to use it the BT universe apparently has at least some literature on the first world war with the theme "How not to fight a war with modern weapons" or something like that. There also exists a book only about Terra and it's many wars called Terra: a planet of war or something similar.

Alan Grant

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #64 on: 28 December 2023, 17:20:58 »
Real life armor has to contend with a lot of weapons designed to defeat it. Not be taking it off an inch or plate at a time, but by punching through it and then doing something awful to whatever that armor is protecting.

Except for a few exceptions like tandem charge warhead SRMs, most weapons in Battletech chisel away at the armor an inch or plate at the time and you aren't through the armor until you've taken off every point of it on a specific side/facing/section of the target.

I know I've oversimplified things a bit, and left out some other exceptions, but the point stands. For tabletop purposes and also how the universe works, that's how it happens. It's a gamification of what is actually a very complex set of variables that go into armor versus weapons.

So, you can only go so far with comparisons to real world weapon systems. The Battletech iterations are simpler, work simpler, and in a much more linear fashion. It has to be a game system that you don't need to be an engineer to understand.

If real world medieval armor had worked according to Battletech gamification and physics, you would not succeed in killing that Knight until you had chiseled their armor off one point at a time, finally exposing the human flesh underneath. Probably take you a few arrows or javelins or swords or pikes hitting the same area of the knight's armor over and over again. Then once the armor was depleted of all points, you could finally hit the Knight in the flesh.

But that's not how it worked in real life. In real life you either succeeded at it in one punch (i.e. a very strong weapon with a lot of force behind it to punch through the armor in one strike) or you probably aren't going to succeed at all and should be aiming at a weak point instead of the thick plate.
« Last Edit: 28 December 2023, 17:25:10 by Alan Grant »

paladin2019

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #65 on: 29 December 2023, 00:24:31 »
Renegade Legion has a much better playable approximation of armor.
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

Agathos

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #66 on: 29 December 2023, 00:50:40 »
I would require my students to read anything I can get my hands on written by one Aleksandr Kerensky. The House Lords may have been happy to see the back of him, fearing him as a potential competitor. But his war against Amaris was a master class and if I'm serious about winning the Succession Wars, I need my students to understand how he won their prototype.

Sarna tells me he edited A Primer to Tactics and Strategy: 34th Edition, and wrote Applied Concepts of Attack and Defense. But it's light on details except to say that Nicky cited them as a model for Clan culture. It's safe to say that's not the lesson any Inner Sphere scholars would have gleaned from them. I wonder what other of his writings might have survived in the Inner Sphere.

Of course if some Clanner happens across two hundred years' worth of undergraduate theses on What Kerensky Was Really Thinking, that could set up quite the cultural clash.

BrianDavion

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #67 on: 29 December 2023, 04:21:55 »
I can see how Nikky K may have drawn from his father's writings for some elements of clan structure, partiuclarly the concept of a point. A point is the smallest unit of a force that should be deployed on it's on on a modern battlefield, and I bet Aleksander Keresnky spelled that out.
So why is a point 1 mech, 2 aerospace fighters, 2 tanks? Because Alek Kerensky said that "a mech can be effective deployed as a singular unit, an aerospace fighter and a tank are best deployed with a 'wingman" etc
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #68 on: 29 December 2023, 05:14:47 »
Not to mention in rewriting the Ares Convention into the ritual combat code called Zellbriggen

Alan Grant

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #69 on: 29 December 2023, 08:51:55 »
Kerensky conceptualized each original Clan of 40 warriors as being a modified BattleMech battalion with aero support. So all together the Clans would constitute a force of 20 battalions by a different name.

That's not surprising. Battalions are like the smallest headquartered unit where the headquarters isn't right on the front-line. It's a bit of both SLDF and House doctrine that they borrowed from and renamed.

You see something similar in the Com Guards, they call a Level III a Battalion sometimes. They were the major sub-component of a Com Guards Division that had a named commander and headquarters.

It's just a guess, but to me, it always felt like what mattered to Kerensky was that each Clan was 40 warriors, most of them mechwarriors (around 70 percent according to Op. Klondike), so that meant roughly a battalion of mechwarriors and some pilots. (as we all know, from there it diverged a bit from Clan to Clan)

From there the concept of Points emerged, but at first for Klondike it was 1 of anything, one 'mech, one fighter, one vehicle, one infantry squad. Then later developed further.

So personally I think Nicky was looking for a battalion by a different name for each of his Clans, and then worked on what that meant internally for each one (giving thought to concepts like points, binaries to define each Clan's warriors internally). The idea that the Clans were 20 battalions is actually presented that way in Operation Klondike in the sections talking about the first organization of the Clans and the force they represented going back to the Pentagon. The planners were SLDF veterans, so thinking about the planning and doctrine on the basis of Battalions made sense to them. It meant they could still use some of the SLDF battalion doctrine (combat doctrine, logistical doctrine etc.). It also meant they could use their existing SLDF dropships (i.e. Unions, Overlords) with only some modifications required, or actually in many cases no modifications required at all, if anything a Union carrying a Binary, or an Overlord carrying an entire Clan's 30-35 'mechs required no modifications and had room to carry spares and more supplies.

Also, Nicky didn't develop Zell. Actually, the Coyotes played around with a version of it first, and then the Clans also encountered some militant Pentagon Powers entities that preferred single combat, and it evolved from there. But that wasn't some insta-law laid down by Kerensky. It evolved and developed over time with influences coming from various places. Check Sarna, it has a whole page on Zell and how it came to be. But the book Operation Klondike also discusses the origins of Zell in various places.
« Last Edit: 29 December 2023, 09:03:40 by Alan Grant »

Metallgewitter

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #70 on: 29 December 2023, 10:00:59 »
Fair enough but during Klondike those were more "proto Zell" situations. One of them were the Vipers and Spirits versus the Shogunate and the other I think the Mongoose and Nova Cats versus the Brotherhood of Fianna. And only the Coyotes took man vs man seriously all other Clans were more in the "Total war doctrine" phase of the SLDF (which makes sense as most still had former SLDF commanders at the helm). Maybe I have to reread that part of who designed it but I got the impression it was hbecause of Andery's death in an ambush on Eden that led to the developmentz of Zellbriggen.

Given Nicolas restructuring I see it as a way of dismantling the old (SLDF military structure) and replace it with something "new" (the Clan structure) while still trying to lean on established orders. The first name of his society was also something called "Fusion" as it was a fusion of different ideals into a new society before coming up with the more "poetic" name "Clans"

paladin2019

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #71 on: 29 December 2023, 11:09:44 »
So why is a point 1 mech, 2 aerospace fighters, 2 tanks? Because Alek Kerensky said that "a mech can be effective deployed as a singular unit, an aerospace fighter and a tank are best deployed with a 'wingman" etc
With the knock-on effect that a Star is an IS Company unless it's 'mechs or elementals, which means that non-'mech Star Commanders should really get more respect for the greater intellectual requirements they have to regularly meet. But the "best" get to be mechwarriors 🤔
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

Alan Grant

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #72 on: 29 December 2023, 11:47:25 »
Fair enough but during Klondike those were more "proto Zell" situations. One of them were the Vipers and Spirits versus the Shogunate and the other I think the Mongoose and Nova Cats versus the Brotherhood of Fianna. And only the Coyotes took man vs man seriously all other Clans were more in the "Total war doctrine" phase of the SLDF (which makes sense as most still had former SLDF commanders at the helm). Maybe I have to reread that part of who designed it but I got the impression it was hbecause of Andery's death in an ambush on Eden that led to the developmentz of Zellbriggen.

Given Nicolas restructuring I see it as a way of dismantling the old (SLDF military structure) and replace it with something "new" (the Clan structure) while still trying to lean on established orders. The first name of his society was also something called "Fusion" as it was a fusion of different ideals into a new society before coming up with the more "poetic" name "Clans"

I went back and looked and you are right, later in the book it talks about Nicky establishing Zell with Andery's death having a big role in that, as well as the nature of the fighting on Eden. But in different parts of the book it basically says that other influences (like enemies that behaved honorably) also had an impact. Going into Klondike from the start it describes Zell as not really existing as anything more than a "gut feeling" (the book's words) among the Clan warriors.

So you are right, Nicky did ultimately lay it down. But that was after a lot of the basis for Zell engagements already happened. Kufahl and the Coyotes gets a lot of credit in that book in her bio and the Clan Coyote summary.

So I guess the point is, yes Nicky created Zellbrigen. But its origin story is actually a complicated one and some Clan warriors (and their opponents) were already practicing versions of it prior to that. 

Therefore, I'd be reluctant to trace it back to a single work, like the Ares Conventions. Much like the rest of the Fusion that was his society, he was picking and choosing the pieces of things he already liked. He also probably had to take into account what the Coyotes and others were already doing. He was in some places just formalizing what already existed in practice.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #73 on: 29 December 2023, 12:34:19 »
I got the feeling the Coyotes took Nicolas concept of "honorable" combat to the extreme and even deriding other Clans who didn't behave like that (like the Foxes bombing their opponents to kingdom come). While I agree that Nicolas used the pretext set by some Clans (and in particular I would say only the Coyotes as the Vipers just took what was offered and never offered it itself) the majority of the Clans didn't see it that way. More likely that the battle for Eden and especially the city fighting (and let's notr forget what a few years of total war had done to the Pentagon worlds in total) and his brother's death made him realize they needed rules to limit damages and he probably used the Ares Convention as base for what he introduced.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #74 on: 29 December 2023, 12:39:31 »
I need my students to understand how he won their prototype.

"Massively outnumber your enemy and just hammer him into dust" is probably not the most useful advice you can give someone. The thing I'd want my students to learn from him is the difference between trying to be politically neutral and reacting to anything that looks like politics by sticking your head in the sand


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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #75 on: 29 December 2023, 15:33:17 »
"Massively outnumber your enemy and just hammer him into dust" is probably not the most useful advice you can give someone. The thing I'd want my students to learn from him is the difference between trying to be politically neutral and reacting to anything that looks like politics by sticking your head in the sand

In an environment where 90% of the time a shoddy stalemate and not losing territory is considered a victory I say they should definitely take pointers from a guy who not only won a war but won the largest war the mankind has ever seen until then





« Last Edit: 29 December 2023, 15:40:15 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

Metallgewitter

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #76 on: 29 December 2023, 18:05:46 »
I am not sure a Phyrric victory is a real victory considering what happened afterwards

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #77 on: 29 December 2023, 18:47:49 »
I am not sure a Phyrric victory is a real victory considering what happened afterwards

Politicians?

That's civilian matter not military one, same civilians who made victory look like a Phyrric one

And his military left in one piece so again, not Phyrric victory

That victory came later for pretenders to the Star League throne, several times

They weren't satisfied with regular victory he won so Phyrric one was the next item on the menu



« Last Edit: 29 December 2023, 18:49:33 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

Metallgewitter

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #78 on: 30 December 2023, 08:07:24 »
Sorry but Kerensky led the downfall of the Hegemony. It was his decision to held courts for any politican / bureacrat who held office during the Amaris reign. This led to elections that voted out the experienced leaders and replaced them with halfwits and crooks. Which in turn led to the slowdown of reconstruction and misappropriation of resources. And his military was for all intents and purposes weakened. Yes the SLDF was still the biggest army but the supplies were down, the morale was at an all time low and the Hegmonies defenses were basically gone. He won the war but left his won charges defensless. If he had at least read how the Allies rebuild Germany or how McKenna rebuild the Terran Alliance he should have known what to do

Alan Grant

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #79 on: 30 December 2023, 09:15:41 »
Sorry but Kerensky led the downfall of the Hegemony. It was his decision to held courts for any politican / bureacrat who held office during the Amaris reign. This led to elections that voted out the experienced leaders and replaced them with halfwits and crooks. Which in turn led to the slowdown of reconstruction and misappropriation of resources. And his military was for all intents and purposes weakened. Yes the SLDF was still the biggest army but the supplies were down, the morale was at an all time low and the Hegmonies defenses were basically gone. He won the war but left his won charges defensless. If he had at least read how the Allies rebuild Germany or how McKenna rebuild the Terran Alliance he should have known what to do

Do we really want to open the "did the Kerensky do the right thing?" can of worms. I don't, and I think it drifts off-topic.

I think that issue speaks more to his decision making and evaluation of the overall political and strategic situation at the time. Not his education or expertise. BTW the SLDF had plenty of expertise in engineering (and were unrivaled in mega-engineering) and rebuilding after wars. Any actual rebuilding efforts would have been developed by those engineers and logistical experts a few rungs down the ladder from Kerensky. There were entire massive departments of the SLDF devoted to having real expertise in these areas. If ordered to carry it out, they carried it out. It's important to remember the scale of the SLDF and how little Kerensky would have actually overseen himself. If Kerensky gave the order to "rebuild all Hegemony worlds." That order would have gone to the Communication Command, the Member-State Liason Command, the Transport Command, the Quartermaster Command, the Medical Command, the Administrative Command and probably a few other commands, and individual Army Commands, to about 20-50 Generals and senior civilian officials, to actually implement and carry out that order, overseeing hundreds of thousands or even millions of people in total. Kerensky's role was political, strategic and administrative at the highest level only. Doing anything more than that would have been seen as micro-management on his part.

In particular, Kerensky's role had taken on a strikingly political one. The Great Houses were dealing with him directly like a head of state and in turn he had to adopt a highly political function as a fixture of his responsibilities.

That aside, personally, I don't think this is relevant to the topic. It speaks to leaders making decisions and whether or not we thought they were good/best decisions. Not what they read or studied at an academy. Which is still the original premise of this discussion.
« Last Edit: 30 December 2023, 10:43:48 by Alan Grant »

The Eagle

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #80 on: 30 December 2023, 09:16:07 »
Sorry but Kerensky led the downfall of the Hegemony. It was his decision to held courts for any politican / bureacrat who held office during the Amaris reign. This led to elections that voted out the experienced leaders and replaced them with halfwits and crooks. Which in turn led to the slowdown of reconstruction and misappropriation of resources. And his military was for all intents and purposes weakened. Yes the SLDF was still the biggest army but the supplies were down, the morale was at an all time low and the Hegmonies defenses were basically gone. He won the war but left his won charges defensless. If he had at least read how the Allies rebuild Germany or how McKenna rebuild the Terran Alliance he should have known what to do

Sure, but this thread isn't about Kerensky and his political abilities.  It's about what military writings are taught in military academies.  For all his faults, Kerensky orchestrated the single largest and longest continuous military campaign in human history, and was successful in destroying his enemy.  By that metric alone anything he wrote on military operations is probably good for future leaders to absorb.
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Minemech

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #81 on: 30 December 2023, 09:23:56 »
Sure, but this thread isn't about Kerensky and his political abilities.  It's about what military writings are taught in military academies.  For all his faults, Kerensky orchestrated the single largest and longest continuous military campaign in human history, and was successful in destroying his enemy.  By that metric alone anything he wrote on military operations is probably good for future leaders to absorb.
A classical problem with some Kerensky-like figures is that their writings may not be useful because they take too many factors as axiomatic. They require dense footnotes to be placed by editors with many works being based on deciphering individual concepts. We do know that aspects of his writings would be pivotal to modern warfare, such as his commentary on infantry. Only two Successor States placed a high value on infantry in the Succession Wars, the Suns who tried to imitate a Star League force, and the Free Worlds League who used their own oversized formations, following a traditional style where the artillery is directly attached to the infantry at battalion level.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #82 on: 30 December 2023, 11:51:01 »
Politicians?

That's civilian matter not military one, same civilians who made victory look like a Phyrric one

And his military left in one piece so again, not Phyrric victory

That victory came later for pretenders to the Star League throne, several times

They weren't satisfied with regular victory he won so Phyrric one was the next item on the menu

It was Pyrrhic because he lost 70% of his strength and could not have fended off the next attack had he tried.


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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #83 on: 30 December 2023, 14:38:38 »
It was Pyrrhic because he lost 70% of his strength and could not have fended off the next attack had he tried.

Like when exodus fleet assembled over New Samarkand and entire Draconis Combine immediately soiled their collective pantaloons?

It's safe to say that there was still nothing in settled universe which came close to Kerensky's SLDF after Amaris War (which nobody except him was capable of winning)

Long story short, if you want to learn how to win the war you read Kerensky. If you want to learn how to not win the war you read all those would be attackers on Kerensky (and several centuries of their successors)



BrianDavion

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #84 on: 30 December 2023, 15:04:09 »
Like when exodus fleet assembled over New Samarkand and entire Draconis Combine immediately soiled their collective pantaloons?

It's safe to say that there was still nothing in settled universe which came close to Kerensky's SLDF after Amaris War (which nobody except him was capable of winning)


you're assuming though that they where soiling themselves because Kerensky's SLDF coulda won a war, thing is even if the DCMS had more raw power at the time, the entire SLDF was concentrated in ONE place and thus had regional superiority, also defeating the ENTIRE SLDF in ONE PLACE would have almost certainly been a hugely phyrric victory that would have left the combine in a bad place for the coming sucession war,
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Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #85 on: 30 December 2023, 22:18:31 »
Like when exodus fleet assembled over New Samarkand and entire Draconis Combine immediately soiled their collective pantaloons?

It's safe to say that there was still nothing in settled universe which came close to Kerensky's SLDF after Amaris War (which nobody except him was capable of winning)

Long story short, if you want to learn how to win the war you read Kerensky. If you want to learn how to not win the war you read all those would be attackers on Kerensky (and several centuries of their successors)

And by massing in one place they gave up their entire core territory. That SLDF navy would have been smashed to pieces by fighting any two House navies, let alone all of them at once.

Trying to learn to fight a war from Kerensky is like trying to learn to be a basketball player from Shaq. He was born on home plate, you're never going to have an army big enough to fight every other power in the Inner Sphere at once and win.


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Metallgewitter

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #86 on: 31 December 2023, 08:49:00 »
To go back on topic: if you think about it most books on military strategy,  tactics and what have you are in essence the same. Sun Tzu's book was the first but most follow up works are basically the same just more set for the appropriate time. As they say in Fallout: War..War never changes.

butchbird

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #87 on: 01 January 2024, 01:58:44 »
Erh...

Now take this with a grain of salt, I'm no expert, just some guy with an interest in these things (and I own few of these books, most of what I read was in school librarys or public librarys already quite the while ago), but...

I'd say there's three categories of military "philosophy".

First, you have the "accounts of campaigns", like the "anabasis" or "commentaries on the gallic war". These texts aim first and foremost at chronicling events. They are first and foremost history books altough they will contain a certain amount of "military theory". I never get tired of pointing out how the 2 or 3 pages in the anabasis detailing the different styles of leadership are pure jewel.

Second, the true "military strategy" books like the "strategikon" (the byzantine empire, only good at discussing the sex of angels? hogwash! Even if part of the book is taken straight out of the Aelian's 2nd century works), Lidell Hart's works on tank warfare that I can't remember the name or even fringier texts like "guerilla operations". These works detail how to conduct warfare with the means of the time. These texts aim first and foremost at discussing technical details about the means and tools of the time.

Third, the "military philosophy" books. These would contain Sun Tzu's art of war, or others such as Clausewitz "on war" (if I remmember correctly my reading, aside from a few passages on the proper disposition of troops on the line of battle in the napoleonic days, most of the text deals with very broad stuff, some of it dealing more with governemental policy then military affairs per say). While the aim of these texts is to equip officers so as to develop a better understanding of their role and place in the world of man and to bestow broad guidelines and tips as to how to wield such tools as fire and espionage, their use, if you consider them side by side with more focused texts of the "second category", is more to broaden the horizons of the reader. Again, the vast number of human enterprises, from warfare to buisness management to even sports, that have found applications for the contents of "the art of war" is a testimony to the broadness and acuteness of the book.

While "the art of war" can be considered "a first", to say that every other text has built up from it is not correct. A prime example is Aelian, whom wrote quite the hefty text on ancient greek strategy but whom would surely never have been in contact with "the art of war".

War never changes...Humans never change, hence their endeavors of passion, such as war, always stem from the same glands and hormones, ambitions and needs... But war does change.

You have the huge shocks, the "revolutions", such as ameridian warfare (here I merely talk of those tribes I am familiar with of course, it's a vast world containing many demographically meak peoples of highly varying cultures) changing from ritualistic warfare with a "line of battle" and warriors arrayed with heavy wooden armors to guerilla like tactics in less then a decade following the contact with buckshot loaded firearms.

You have the smaller tweaks, such as deepening the right wing of your phalanx, which nonetheless completely upset the balance of power in ancient greece right before the macedonian domination.

But that's it: war is in constant mutation...and we need books to keep track of it. Books that, through the ages, have delt with very different subjects.
« Last Edit: 01 January 2024, 02:01:04 by butchbird »

Metallgewitter

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #88 on: 01 January 2024, 10:32:25 »
Von Clausewitz's book is more in line with "politics and military are intertwined and therefore politics has to support the military to have the military achieve it's goal". In essense the old wisdom : "in the end everything is politics" Though to be fair the book is more centered on the then German empire's side with the caveheat that any war that is fought has to be short and decisive lest you burden your realm.

Though I would agree that the literature is most liekly divided into categories. One for the morte theoretical aspect and one for the practical implementation of said tool. Just like for example vonm Manstein wrote his book "Achtung Panzer" as a meaning to implement Germany's usage of the then ubiquotus tanks that had become mainstay of any army but hjad still very different interpretations like the French with their "tanks must support infantry" doctrine

butchbird

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Re: Required military reading at Military academies
« Reply #89 on: 01 January 2024, 12:29:06 »
Hm yes, "governemental policies rather then military affairs" was a bad term for Clausewitz, I should've said "doctrines and policies more governemental in nature and not DIRECTLY affecting the battlefield".

But furthermore, because I have an angle and it is not daily I can have this sort of conversation, to say that military theory is always just more of the same, if one discounts the "well, that's the field it is in" aspect, is discounting also the changing nature of human societys and interactions to which war must adapt. It is not only the means that have changed, but the very war aims are completely irrecognizible in most wars of our days from when city-states were the norm.

So, right from the start, military philosophy has to contend with 5 "great familys" of war (here, I actually own the book) each with very different origins, outlook and aims.

While "ritualized warfare" (mostly "tribal warfare)" has probably spawned very little in the way of "theory", from there, this field blossomed.

Sun Tzu cam arguably be a product of "wars of limited aim", of which dynastic struggles are an example.
Julius Cesar is a leading figure of the litterature spawning from "classic conquest warfare".
Clausewitz is the first to come to mind to represent "Mass warfare", born with the french revolution and culminating in WW1.
And then you have "no quarter warfare", in which one classes civil wars, religious wars, genocidal wars (and hence some parts of ww2)... harder to find a representative here as this covers alot of disparate ground.

And quite possibly, the technocratisation of society and increasing importance of technology in our daily lives will spawn a new age of warfare in the coming decades.

So, basically, while its all part of the same field, there can be very little overlapping from one author to another.



 

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