Thoughts wanted: a less arbitrary Empires Aflame?

[Hominid Mk II]

To my mind, the second major flaw with Herb Beas's masterpiece is that he allows himself too many further divergences from the history of the canon timeline after the initial one, that don't obviously seem to be made more likely by the initial one having already happened beforehand. (Why would Maximilian Liao's master plan for the covert takeover of the FS by the CC to create the Confederated Suns work there when it didn't in the canon timeline?) The first major flaw is, of course, the sheer nonsense of essentially the same characters being born to different parents!

So let's go back to the original concept: Aleksandr Kerensky is assassinated by parties unknown before the SLDF Exodus can happen. The rage felt by the fracturing SLDF is enough to make them get their act together and reunify effectively under Aaron DeChavilier, who proclaims himself First Lord of the Terran Supremacy. He gets away with it!

We can dispense with the silly business of an alternate version of every IlKhan of the Clans and every Primus of ComStar existing even though the Clans and ComStar themselves don't.

We can keep the idea of the very different histories of the major Periphery states. They do seem to follow on fairly logically as a consequence of the existence of the Terran Supremacy and its need for allies against the Great Houses.

Now fast forward to 3022-25. Katrina Steiner has made her historic peace proposal and the chances are that the Terran Supremacy has dismissed it out of hand, just like everybody else except Hanse Davion. He responds by suggesting a military alliance against the DC. (He knows she simply has no incentive to join him in a war against the CC, while he likewise has no incentive to join her in a war against the FWL.)

What happens next? Are the Terran Supremacy going to let Houses Steiner and Davion unite effectively against House Kurita, potentially eliminating the most consistently hostile and dangerous threat to themselves as well? Or will they be so worried that the demolition of the DC will eventually be followed by the Steiner-Davion alliance turning on them that they'll actually force themselves to support the Kuritas, out of an obsession with trying to preserve the status quo? Or what?

Thoughts, anyone?

[Red Pins]

Hmm.  Realistically - they'd support the Dracs.  They'd probably hide their intentions as best they could, but - yeah.  Nobody wants a superstate on their border.

[Alexander Knight]

Why does the ConSuns have to be Max's successful covert takeover plan?  Seriously.

Let's look at Hanse's position in EA.  He's got hostile borders with the Terrans, the Dracs, the Outworlds, the Taurians, and the Confederation.  He needs an ally, but who?

Marik?  Falling apart.
Steiner?  Won't do any good.  Terra and Luthien will keep them from doing more than sending intel to each other.
Rimmers?  Why?  They don't share any of the same borders.
Terra?  Heh, no.  Terra would only accept if he submits.
Kurita?  <Flat stare>
Outworlds?  While they're a threat, they're a minor one and would also only be a minor annoyance to Kurita.
Taurians?  Seriously, the Dracs are more likely.

That leaves House Liao and the Confederation.  There's no need for any convoluted impersonation plot.  A FS-CC alliance simply makes the most sense in this setup.

[Hellraiser]

What happens next? Are the Terran Supremacy going to let Houses Steiner and Davion unite effectively against House Kurita, potentially eliminating the most consistently hostile and dangerous threat to themselves as well? Or will they be so worried that the demolition of the DC will eventually be followed by the Steiner-Davion alliance turning on them that they'll actually force themselves to support the Kuritas, out of an obsession with trying to preserve the status quo? Or what?

Interesting.

Without the close connection near Terra you don't have the incentive for the FS/LC to attack the Terran corridor to "link up".

Actually,  I don't even see an incentive for the FS/LC to attack the FWL/CC at all in 3028 or 3039.

I wouldn't even want to attack the edge of the TS region either.

Instead for me I'm seeing a combo of 4SW Lyran/Tamar/Rasalhague thrust & Wo39 Davion/Sortek/Galtor thrust both striking much closer to the edges of the DC periphery.

Basically aiming to take pie slices out of the DC that meet up at Luthien & reclaim a lot of worlds for the Tamar & Robinson marches.

I'd leave worlds boarding the TS & Periphery both untouched, at first, it might inspire other neighbors to pick of a few of them off for their own gain & save Hanse/Katrina the trouble.

Either way it leaves the DC reeling as they are forced to fight a 2 front war.

I'm not seeing TS actively help the DC, as you said, they are a hostile neighbor, and I don't think the LC/FS are sooo potent that they steamroll the DC into nothing immediately.

If anything, I do see the DC being weakened & I see the LC/FS staying separate nations but with a longer lasting military alliance v/s a full joining of nations.

They still have to deal w/ the FWL, CC, & TS at times, but just the shared intel & coordination of attacks at the DC might lead to it loosing ground in a "4th SW" & then possibly loosing Luthien by the time a "Wo39" happens after both realms recover & consolidate for a decade.

In the Short Term, if they didn't go full out war offense, the FWL & CC can probably be counted on to pick off a few worlds here & there with those borders probably being weaker.

By the time of the "Clan Invasion" you might have a FC connected around 1/2 of the IS in a "Shallow-C" shape & might even get another Concord of Kapteyn happening but with the TS in the DC slot.  Talk about a union of unwanted allies.

The F/C would probably not go about conquering the rest of the IS, lets face it, they are going to be stuck trying to assimilate the DC words FOR-EVER.
  Then again, maybe the freedoms v/s Kurita rule will make everyone happy, but somehow I doubt it.
  I'm sure the FRR will like it at first, but eventually I see them being the "Free Skye" of this AU.

Yeah, having the TS in between them really does change any "war" ideas the FC nations might want plan.

[consequences]

A less arbitrary imagining of it would involve not every House Leeroy Jenkinsing their faces into the sausage grinder that is an existing SLDF all at once.

[Daryk]

Agreed... a relatively intact SLDF in the Hegemony makes claiming their worlds MUCH less attractive.

[beachhead1985]

You know; I never looked at EA very closely. This thread makes it sound like a Star Trek Mirror Universe Episode.

[Sharpnel]

You know; I never looked at EA very closely. This thread makes it sound like a Star Trek Mirror Universe Episode.

An astute comparison

[Hominid Mk II]

You know; I never looked at EA very closely. This thread makes it sound like a Star Trek Mirror Universe Episode.

An astute comparison

Well, up to a point. In the Mirror Universe, there's an implausible (excessive) degree of "moral reversal" in which characters and factions we're used to seeing as good are evil while ones we're used to seeing as evil are good. In the EA Universe, people generally still want to act in similar ways to how they do in the Canon Universe but the changed background circumstances often just won't allow them to.

I'm just wondering what a modified EA Universe in which there aren't so many arbitrary further divergences from the Canon Universe after the first one might be like.

[Hominid Mk II]

There's no need for any convoluted impersonation plot.

No, maybe not. But Max Liao's twisted mind would probably want to implement one anyway just to be sure. And if it still goes on to fail as it did in the Canon Universe, Hanse Davion will never forgive or forget to the point of allying with him voluntarily later on, even if he doesn't actually still go to war with him in this scenario. So who does that leave the latter with as an ally except Katrina Steiner, or vice versa? House DeChavilier are just to arrogant to respond to an offer of an alliance from either of them, I think.

[Sir Chaos]

No, maybe not. But Max Liao's twisted mind would probably want to implement one anyway just to be sure. And if it still goes on to fail as it did in the Canon Universe, Hanse Davion will never forgive or forget to the point of allying with him voluntarily later on, even if he doesn't actually still go to war with him in this scenario. So who does that leave the latter with as an ally except Katrina Steiner, or vice versa? House DeChavilier are just to arrogant to respond to an offer of an alliance from either of them, I think.

You know what they say... "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."

With the failed impersonation plot, Hanse Davion has a very good reason to keep Max Liao VERY close... and how much closer can you get than allying with him?

He could even pretend to Max Liao that the impersonation plot succeeded, and that he´s the fake Hanse offering his submission to Max Liao.

[Hominid Mk II]

He could even pretend to Max Liao that the impersonation plot succeeded, and that he´s the fake Hanse offering his submission to Max Liao.

Whew! Twisty. But maybe not beyond Hanse.

[consequences]

I would actually entirely buy the substitution plot working. Why else is the Federated Confederation ignoring New Avalon, New Syrtis, and Robinson being occupied in order to pursue campaigns that only benefit the Liaos?

[Hominid Mk II]

I would actually entirely buy the substitution plot working. Why else is the [Confederated Suns] ignoring New Avalon, New Syrtis, and Robinson being occupied in order to pursue campaigns that only benefit the Liaos?

Yup. I think it can't really make sense any other way.

[Alexander Knight]

I would actually entirely buy the substitution plot working. Why else is the Federated Confederation ignoring New Avalon, New Syrtis, and Robinson being occupied in order to pursue campaigns that only benefit the Liaos?

Because they aren't?  New Avalon and New Syrtis fall approximately 20 years before the adventure date.  The Confederated Suns' current ruler is said to favor diplomacy, hasn't launched any major campaigns against the FWL Remnant, and is trying to retake New Syrtis, New Avalon, Robinson, Liao, and Zion.

Remind me again, what's the current state of the Federated Suns in canon?

[The_Livewire]

I've been thinking about this of late myself. I figure part of the reason for no clantech in the AU is that a lot of resources go to rebuilding shattered worlds rather than bigger guns.

I'll post more thoughts tomorrow.

[The_Livewire]

Ok, a bit longer rambling, look at Empire's Aflame.

I read into the story of the Terran Supremacy as "We're just going to sit here and let you pound on each other.  Don't start nothin' Won't be nothin'."

Obviously the various houses 'started something.' That's how the TS grew.

I'm not a fan of 'no new tech until suddenly 300 years later...'  I'd have assumed retrotech would pop up a lot earlier in the Periphery and later the Great Houses.  Likewise, I'd see the resource starved Periphery (with Supremacy help) pioneer the light autocannons and rocket launchers, maybe even MRMs 

AS to the 'no clantech' bit, if anyone could develop it, it would be the TS.  I figure they instead focused on fortifying their holdings, and repairing them.  I suspect Venus, Mars, New Dallas and others are 'alive and wellish' in the AU, as the TS focused resources on keeping them alive.  Both for Terran Pride and resources.

Some organizations would be completely different.  The PDF touches on the lack of Regimental Merc units, likewise, certain factions would never form.  Is Free Skye really wanting to leave the TS?

One creation I'm working on is the Sons of Amaris.  A group of hardliners and cultists that feel that "Amaris was right" and seek to rebuild the RWR, with terror attacks in Marik, Steiner, and Sheridan space.  Still a work in progress, their motto is "Next year, on Apollo."

[Red Pins]

One creation I'm working on is the Sons of Amaris.  A group of hardliners and cultists that feel that "Amaris was right" and seek to rebuild the RWR, with terror attacks in Marik, Steiner, and Sheridan space.  Still a work in progress, their motto is "Next year, on Apollo."

Sounds interesting.  Send me a copy of it when it's done for my collection.

[HABeas2]

Hm.

-Herb

[The_Livewire]

Sorry I've not been able to do more on this.  Arm surgery beginning of November and my fiance's cancer have eating up a lot of my time and ability to type long posts.

My ideas for the Sons of Amaris are like my arm right now, half functional and hurting.  The idea borrows a lot from real world terror organizations, but I'll avoid direct comparisons for Rule 4 purposes.

Name: Sons of Amaris
Alternate names: Republic Restoration Leauge, Republic Preservation Society.
Stated purpose: Protection of the cultural identity of the Rim Republic, restoration of the Republic.
What they really want: Restoration of the Rim World Republic, destruction of House Sheridan and House DeChavilier.  Restoration of an Amaris Star League (hey, why not dream big?)
Motto: Next year, on Apollo!

The Sons of Amaris have existed since the First Succession War.  Originally consisting of veterans of the Rim forces who never accepted the tale of events as presented by Kerensky and the SLDF.  Believing that Amaris' actions were justified and actually not different than other events in the history of humanity. 

Rather than present Amaris as saint or demon, they wish to 'simply' restore the Republic to its height.  Of course that included ruling the Terran Hegemony and First Lord of the Star League...

They aren't a force that will be dropping mech regiments on Tharkad, or summoning a fleet of warships out of seemingly nowhere to launch an orbital bombardment on Kaumberg. Rather, they will be the ones doing car bombings, trying to assassinate political figures and otherwise disrupting civil functions, to try to 'prove' that cities/planets/systems would be better off with a united rule under the reformed Rim Worlds.  They mostly direct their attacks against the Lyran Commonweath and Terran Supremacy, the former more than the later.  Their funding comes from criminal activity, support of 'patriot families' and some support from the Federated Suns, Capellan Confederation, (and later Confederated Suns)  and Draconis Combine.  "Enemy of my Enemy is my friend" type of thought.

"I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught one. I just DO things. I'm a wrench in the gears."  This sums up the strength and weakness of the Sons of Amaris.  They really don't know what to do if they actually win.  There have been systems that have revolted against the Lyran Commonwealth as well as the Rim Federation, with the guidance of the Sons of Amaris.  They quickly fell back in line as a single world with no economy, no allies and surrounded by an unfriendly power had no chance of survival.  For a coordinated effort of gaining enough worlds at once to be a nation would require an event of Jihad like chaos sphere wide.

As an antagonist:
The SoA serves as a local, and low level threat.  A party might oppose them as facing their hired merc unit or protecting a dignitary from their attacks.  The SoA also does work the halls of politicla power, indirectly by buying influence as any lobbying group would, or directly by taking political office.  Investigating a political candidate for ties to the SoA (which is an illegal organization in both the Federation, the Commonwealth and Supremacy, and technically illegal in the other Successor states) can make for some adventure fodder.

As an Ally?
The SoA can be an ally, albiet a dangerous one.  They do some humanitarian work, both in helping 'citizens of the Republic' (whether the people believe in the SoA mission or not) and recovering artifacts and other historical items from the Republic.   A group of unknowing PCs could be seeing themselves as an EA verison of "Snords Irregulars" and actually be doing the work of the SoA.
The SoA also funds expeditions to find lost worlds both to 'dead' worlds that were unable to be rebuilt from the Succession Wars and worlds rimward of the Federation.  With no Interstellar Expeditions or even Explorer Corps in the Empires Aflame universe, many of the lost worlds mentioned in IE3 remain lost, waiting to be (re)discovered by the Inner Sphere.  Many of these exploitative groups are legal and operating above board, and may not even know the source of the funding.

Ok, arm is burning and physical therapy would likely be glaring at me, so this is all for now.  I also have ideas on tech developed after 2750, and who built what.

[The_Livewire]

A few thoughts on the Terran Supremacy (TS).

I think they're a lot like the Federation.  The DS9 version.

The public face is a strong defensive military.  The "Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'" version I mentioned above.  Reality is more... complex.

We know that the TS has been arming the Periphery, as mentioned in the source material.  I'd assume that the TS while not as, shall we say vigorous, as Comstar, I'd bet they have their own Section 31 out there keeping the royal level designs rare, as well as making sure any leaps in military technology are either a) destroyed, b) copied or c) both.  I'd also expect 'false flag' style missions to keep the other houses busy. This also would be a roll used for mercenaries in the EA universe.  Whether they realize their employers or not.

As to why no Clan level weapons, as I mentioned above, the TS is likely working on medical and construction technologies rather than bigger guns.  Logically, they'd have the same (or larger) pool of gear heads the fledgling clans did, but they were focused elsewhere.  That said, I'd say that the logical breakthroughs (Streak 4 and 6, er Med and smalls, different caliber of Ultras and LBs) were developed by the TS and, while not common, since they'd remain on Royal designs, they were developed in the time before the 3040's.

So what caused the other States to ramp up production in 30xx?