Escort Carriers- Should they have appeared at the end of 1SW & during 2SW

[Colt Ward]

Escort carriers by their definition are a stop-gap measure when the pace of combat outstrips the ability to build and launch purpose built carriers.  The warship, and I would imagine combat & carrier dropship, fleets suffered through the Aramis war, collapse of the Star League after Kerensky's Exodus, and then the start of the Succession Wars since they were required to break through any SDS systems- Fleets had to fight their way into orbit to deliver ground forces- be it warship/DS drones, planet/orbit based capital & subcap weapon sites, or squadrons of ASF/SC.

Fleet engagements tended to be mutually assured destruction by the sounds of the action, and while the fleets hammered at each other they also destroyed shipyards and production facilities on opposing sides.  Ships that could take months to build (only rule that comes to mind is from Combat Ops) at full speed- or longer once supply chains started to be broken- could and were destroyed in their berths.  Building carrier warships stopped happening; Vengences, Titan and Leopard CV DS production also slowed down while we are told there are dedicated carrier versions of the Overlord and Union, we never got RS for them (and are unlikely to do so).  Plus . . . well, the SL-era carrier DS seemed to be aerodyne.

Do you think the Houses would take a aerodyne DS they produced (like CVE) and refit them into escort carriers to get another 12/18 ASF into the fight even if the mothership is fragile?

[Charistoph]

You mean like what they did with the Leopard CV?

[Liam's Ghost]

I frequently mourn the lack of an intermediate carrier between the Leopard CV and the Vengeance.

The Titan hardly counts, because it's so heavily armed and also quickly goes extinct relatively quickly once the succession wars start.

Though I do recall that there have been mentions of a Union CV.

[Minemech]

I frequently mourn the lack of an intermediate carrier between the Leopard CV and the Vengeance.

The Titan hardly counts, because it's so heavily armed and also quickly goes extinct relatively quickly once the succession wars start.

Though I do recall that there have been mentions of a Union CV.

You do have the Okinawa, and Gorgon. They come later than the premise, but still neat ships.

[Colt Ward]

Gorgon is dedicated though . . . I was meaning something thin-skinned because it was never up armored and of course not the most efficient design.  IMO, like I was advocating the aerodyne it would suffer the same non-atmo problems the Vengeance had per fluff.

Leopard CV is 2582?  So its way before and for its time it was probably one of the first dedicated ASF carrier . . . rather than being a SC carrier.

[Red Pins]

Like this from Sarna?

Carrack Fighter Carrier
During the First Succession War, some Carracks were converted into Aerospace Carriers. One example of this conversion was the FSS Pretoria Castle, which was converted into a fighter carrier capable of transporting a wing of aerospace fighters.[8] The Free Worlds League was also known to employ its own Aerospace Carrier variants of the Carrack during the war.[9]

[lrose]

In the real world, most CVEs were built on standard commercial ship hulls.  So in BT the equivalent would be using either the Buccaneer or Mule.  The Mule would make a really nice CVE- 2 wings of 18 fighters and 2700 tons for passengers/fuel/cargo with minimal armor and weapons.

Converting a combat dropship- like the Union, Triumph or the like would be more like the Independence class of CVLs during WW2 which were more combat capable then CVEs but not as effective as a fleet carrier.

[Colt Ward]

Sort of Red Pins, except that is a Compact Core 'warship' . . . and yeah, that is what I was saying Irose- something using a common or easily mass produced DS, or that could be converted from existing ships.  Which IIRC the first British escort was built in that manner.

So yeah, the Buc (lol, what would you call the class though?) and maybe DroST IIA for conversions . . . especially since the DroST IIb were already better small 'carriers' than Leopard CVs if they got up to modern armor & weapons.  Bucs could be new builds, but the IIA (or as I saw it somewhere, DroST Gunship) would be converted merchantmen and so fit the bill almost perfectly.

[Jellico]

Don't you need the ASF first?

What is the role? ASF can orbit a world in minutes so you don't need a CV there for defense.
Likewise for jump points.

Hitting a moving convoy is stupidly hard meaning in transit escorts are mostly not needed.


I am trying to find a role to justify tying up rare and valuable ASF on a throwaway platform performing a role that is mostly not needed, and if it is a fleet asset can be assigned.

[Atarlost]

Don't you need the ASF first?

What is the role? ASF can orbit a world in minutes so you don't need a CV there for defense.
Likewise for jump points.

Hitting a moving convoy is stupidly hard meaning in transit escorts are mostly not needed.


I am trying to find a role to justify tying up rare and valuable ASF on a throwaway platform performing a role that is mostly not needed, and if it is a fleet asset can be assigned.

Launching from a planet with an atmosphere cuts into your fuel reserves, meaning a closer intercept and the increased transit time to the fight slows your ability to rearm your ships and turn them around. 

There's a lot more space infrastructure before SW II.  Civilian jumpship yards are probably frequently at the Lagrange point closest to a pirate point because new jumpships don't have to travel as far to get to a jump point and they should be perfectly safe to transit out of.  You also have military yards in planetary orbit and space based warehousing used to facilitate unloading pre-dropship jumpships and still in use for the large non-aerodynamic cargo carriers.  Space over any major planet that wasn't fought over in the Amaris Civil War and that hasn't yet changed hands or been heavily raided in SW I or II is probably full of high value targets vulnerable to bearings on launched capital missiles.  Those weren't extinct yet and mounting them on dropships has a Star League precedent in the Star League variant of the Mule PWS. 

Keeping enemies far enough away that they can't get good missile targeting solutions on your infrastructure or putting lots of things with PD capable weapons in the path of the missiles they do launch if you're lucky enough to have something with forward facing small lasers in inventory is the job of carriers. 

There should also be a lot more ASF production relatively speaking.  Everyone had been turning out Kerensky Royal ASF to replace SLDF losses and they would have had far worse losses in ASFs than mechs with so much space combat against Caspars.  With the Exodus the SLDF was suddenly not buying them to restock its depleted forces leaving the houses with all the ASF production they needed until the tech decline and maintenance issues associated with emergency built factories stopped production.  ASF factories would also suffer far less damage than warship yards because they would have been on planets.  Most dropships could theoretically have been built on planets, but usually weren't so those were also more vulnerable. 

[truetanker]

DroST IIb is what your thinking of...

8 Small Crafts... and is a heavily armed beast for it's time.

TT

[Colt Ward]

There's a lot more space infrastructure before SW II.  Civilian jumpship yards are probably frequently at the Lagrange point closest to a pirate point because new jumpships don't have to travel as far to get to a jump point and they should be perfectly safe to transit out of.  You also have military yards in planetary orbit and space based warehousing used to facilitate unloading pre-dropship jumpships and still in use for the large non-aerodynamic cargo carriers.  Space over any major planet that wasn't fought over in the Amaris Civil War and that hasn't yet changed hands or been heavily raided in SW I or II is probably full of high value targets vulnerable to bearings on launched capital missiles.  Those weren't extinct yet and mounting them on dropships has a Star League precedent in the Star League variant of the Mule PWS. 

Keeping enemies far enough away that they can't get good missile targeting solutions on your infrastructure or putting lots of things with PD capable weapons in the path of the missiles they do launch if you're lucky enough to have something with forward facing small lasers in inventory is the job of carriers. 

There should also be a lot more ASF production relatively speaking.  Everyone had been turning out Kerensky Royal ASF to replace SLDF losses and they would have had far worse losses in ASFs than mechs with so much space combat against Caspars.  With the Exodus the SLDF was suddenly not buying them to restock its depleted forces leaving the houses with all the ASF production they needed until the tech decline and maintenance issues associated with emergency built factories stopped production.  ASF factories would also suffer far less damage than warship yards because they would have been on planets.  Most dropships could theoretically have been built on planets, but usually weren't so those were also more vulnerable.

Which is part of why I suggested they would have been a stop-gap measure during the Succession Wars.  Warships and true carrier dropships are getting popped regularly in the naval warfare of SW1 & SW2.  Just like the cited examples of emergency rush jobs, the IS powers could have converted civilian DS to be carriers to transport the maximum amount of force into the target system as possible.  IMO they would have been dismantled during the long decline of SW3 to provide parts to the remaining true DS carriers (ASF cubicles, catapults, PriFly- coms, etc) or even spare parts to cargo DS class they came from as Houses struggled to keep their interstellar empires alive.  It makes it no different than for example the Thunderbolt 5L & 5LS as stop gap measures.

[Maingunnery]

DroST IIb is what your thinking of...

8 Small Crafts... and is a heavily armed beast for it's time.

TT

It is good, but we still need a version that fits in a DropShuttle Bay.
Or a DropShip variant that remains available to the current era.  :'(

[Liam's Ghost]

It is good, but we still need a version that fits in a DropShuttle Bay.

We're supposed to get an eratta'd version that fits in a dropshuttle bay at some point. Unfortunately, it's impossible to say when.

(Real fact, the battletech universe is too big for the tiny staff at catalyst to handle anything but what they're immediately focusing on at the moment, and even what they're focusing on at the moment might be too much)

[glitterboy2098]

Gorgon is dedicated though . . . I was meaning something thin-skinned because it was never up armored and of course not the most efficient design.  IMO, like I was advocating the aerodyne it would suffer the same non-atmo problems the Vengeance had per fluff.

Leopard CV is 2582?  So its way before and for its time it was probably one of the first dedicated ASF carrier . . . rather than being a SC carrier.

Leopard-CV, 1,720 tons, 6 Fighters, first launched 2581 (~50 years after the first mech carrier model). became the most common fighter carrier in the IS. (which explains why it is IS general in the MUL from star league times all the way to the jihad.. and presumably right into the early republic, and dark age periods as well)

Vengeance, 10,000 tons, 40 fighters and 3 smallcraft, first launched 2682. dedicated carrier with limited weaponry. usually required escort by Assault Dropships for defense. MUL lists them as Capellan, Davion, and FWL during star league times, with comstar, Outworlds Alliance ,and mercenaries gaining them in the early succession wars. late succession wars they are IS general.

Titan, 12,000 tons, 18 fighters, first launched 2647. largest dropship fighter carrier pre-clans, at least by tonnage. doubles as an assault ship, and originally used as escorts for warships under the star league. Out of production following the 1st succession war due to the loss of the manufacturer's shipyards. virtually none survived in the IS by the 3rd succession war, likely due to overuse as a warship alternative. MUL lists them as Capcon, Fedsuns, FWL, Lyran, Hegemony, Periphery General, and Star League regulars and royals. early succession wars it is IS general (and calls out the outworlds alliance, suggesting they had rather more than normal.)


i'd say that in the 1st succession war, the IS had escort carriers already, so didn't need to develop any. though the fact the Combine had so few the MUL didn't list them for those era's suggests the Combine had to make do with mainly Leopard-CV's.

[Jellico]

The Combine had/has a Vengeance factory at Chatham.

Vengeances are/were also built at Loyalty (FWL) and Layover (FS).

It says a lot about how much one should trust RATs and even TROs. FWL and DC Vengeances don't show up in RATs and the Layover had to be added 20 years after Objective Raids to explain the TRO3057 Vengeance upgrade coming from the FS.

For completeness the Leopard CV is built at Clipperton (FWL), Alarion (LC until 3081), and Galax (FS until 3070).

[Colt Ward]

Sure glitterboy, they may have been producing them into the 1SW . . . but were they producing enough to keep up with losses and replace the ASF strength carried on warships that would help with attacks?  By their nature they would be stop-gap measures designed to pick up the non-critical but still essential duties of the smaller ASF DS carriers and warships like convoy escort, jump zone control, or protecting gas mining.