'Mech of the Mid-Week: RVN-** Raven and Raven II

[Empyrus]

Removed until further notice.

[Frabby]

I've already written this elsewhere but can't find where, so probably on the old forum: I feel there's a disconnect in the history of the Raven. It was initially described (in the Liao housebook iirc) as a battalion-level standoff artillery spotter; its role was said to ID targets from a distance. In that role it indeed makes sense to build the (unstatted, rules-wise) standoff EW package into a light 'Mech.

However, as BattleTech evolved people abbreviated the Raven's role to "EW 'Mech" which in turn got translated into "all the new electronic toys", i.e. ECM, BAP, TAG & NARC. Which resulted in a 'Mech that wasn't a standoff support platform, but an in-your-face melee trooper... only a 35 ton lightweight with particularly anaemic armor. Suddenly, the chassis didn't make any sense anymore whatsoever.

Also, from how you wrote your article (I like the writing style!) it strikes me that the RVN-3"M" might be named not for Marik, but for the MechWarrior computer game after all. Though a LRM is a Marik-favorite weapon all right, and with the Concord of Kapteyn a special Marik export version is conceivable.

[Empyrus]

I've already written this elsewhere but can't find where, so probably on the old forum: I feel there's a disconnect in the history of the Raven. It was initially described (in the Liao housebook iirc) as a battalion-level standoff artillery spotter; its role was said to ID targets from a distance. In that role it indeed makes sense to build the (unstatted, rules-wise) standoff EW package into a light 'Mech.

Yes... i can see how it was intended to work. Low armor and low speed to no matter if it is spotting from great distance.

Also, from how you wrote your article (I like the writing style!) it strikes me that the RVN-3"M" might be named not for Marik, but for the MechWarrior computer game after all. Though a LRM is a Marik-favorite weapon all right, and with the Concord of Kapteyn a special Marik export version is conceivable.

Could be a double meaning. M for Marik, M for Mechwarrior. Greekfire noted the 'mech is always available to the FWL in MUL, which heavily hints  at it being a Marik variant. In either case, it works.

[Maelwys]

I don't think the DHS are really missing from the 3L.  While it obviously would be better with 10 DHS instead of 11 SHS, the design only can produce 12 points of heat on a running alpha strike, so it isn't like the Panther upgrade where its almost critically overheating each turn.

I wouldn't call it an issue really.

[GreekFire]

Great stuff!! I'm happy this article is out, I've been wanting to talk about the Raven for a while.

Back when Ghost Targets was overhauled I used it as an excuse to field a good number of lil' electronic boats (sorry Frabby) that I hadn't touched for a while...the Raven was one. From what I've found, the Raven isn't an in-your-face package. Its speed is way too slow for that. Instead, I really think the fluff hits it for this one - used as a lance's "fifth member" it can really shine.

In earlier Succession War games the -1X can hover close to important 'mechs and give them the Ghost Targets benefit as much as possible. If used smartly, it can easily stay out of sight behind a few wood or level two hexes, while a larger more imposing 'mech suddenly becomes that much harder to hit. It's a valuable asset in those low-tech games, and one that I've found good use for.

Later on, I'd say things mostly stay the same. The only different, of course, is now you not only have more range, but many more options. Standard ECM can come in handy as needed, but I'd personally keep it on Ghost Targets (don't want your Raven to die while it's interdicting something) and use the TAG as needed.

The Raven II, though, it the most interesting one of the bunch. The Improved Communications quirk is huge - if used, the Raven II can use its Stealth Armor and Bloodhound at the same time, since the ImpCom quirk lets you ignore all hostile standard ECM effects. This should also mean (though I'm not 100% on this) that the TSEMP ECM effects shouldn't affect you either...not too shabby. It's last little quirk is the Angel ECM; you can use the Angel for the Stealth Armor AND use it for Ghost Targets if you want (although your own weapons fire gains a +1 to hit...but that's really not much of a problem on the Raven II). Otherwise you can rock the standard ECM as usual, or turn the Stealth off to interdict something that really needs it - because you're now fast enough to actually rush in and accomplish that kind of job. Load only alternate munitions in that MML/5 and you have a hyper-flexible platform that can really help you and hamper your opponent. I like it quite a lot.

[Empyrus]

The Raven II, though, it the most interesting one of the bunch. The Improved Communications quirk is huge - if used, the Raven II can use its Stealth Armor and Bloodhound at the same time, since the ImpCom quirk lets you ignore all hostile standard ECM effects. This should also mean (though I'm not 100% on this) that the TSEMP ECM effects shouldn't affect you either...not too shabby. It's last little quirk is the Angel ECM; you can use the Angel for the Stealth Armor AND use it for Ghost Targets if you want (although your own weapons fire gains a +1 to hit...but that's really not much of a problem on the Raven II). Otherwise you can rock the standard ECM as usual, or turn the Stealth off to interdict something that really needs it - because you're now fast enough to actually rush in and accomplish that kind of job. Load only alternate munitions in that MML/5 and you have a hyper-flexible platform that can really help you and hamper your opponent. I like it quite a lot.

It has Improved Sensors, not Improved Communications. As a result, it only has increased Active Probe range, though depending on how you interpret the rule, it may retain the effects of an active probe even if the Bloodhound is lost.

[GreekFire]

It has Improved Sensors, not Improved Communications. As a result, it only has increased Active Probe range, though depending on how you interpret the rule, it may retain the effects of an active probe even if the Bloodhound is lost.

Man, I always get those two mixed up. That's a shame and a half...ah well.

[Flieger]

Thank you!

Yes, the CapCon has many iconic BattleMechs, like the Vindicator, and later various Xin Sheng 'mechs like the Men Shen or Yu Huang. But the Raven represents the CapCon's struggle to survive and their ingenuity, more so than any other 'mech they have.

Agreed! When I think of a CC mech, I think of the Raven. It just fits the Capellan style, without bluntly rubbing "Look it's Chinese!" into your face like some of the Xin Sheng mechs.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't think the DHS are really missing from the 3L.  While it obviously would be better with 10 DHS instead of 11 SHS, the design only can produce 12 points of heat on a running alpha strike, so it isn't like the Panther upgrade where its almost critically overheating each turn.

I wouldn't call it an issue really.

I'd say the real issue is that DHS could have let it turn that 11th heatsink into much needed armor.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

I'd say the real issue is that DHS could have let it turn that 11th heatsink into much needed armor.

Or heck, just drop it even without the heat sink upgrade.  On a 3L the standing alpha strike is only 10 heat.  So just movement and maybe getting hosed with infernos or engine damage for things that can overheat it.  And frankly the mech doesn't have the armor for an extended slugging match.  And if in one someone screwed up.

Most variants of the Raven work as a force multiplier.  Useful on the battlefield less for what it can do on it's own, and more for what it allows other units on its side to do better.

[Maelwys]

Oh, I agree. The 11th heat sink's mass could've been used elsewhere. But I don't think its such an egregious error that it really detracts from the design in anyway. If it had been a light scout hunter or something, designed to go one on one against the FedCom's Wolfhounds, then yeah, I'd say DHS and the armor was necessary. On an EW support `Mech? Not so much.

[SCC]

The big problem with the EW Equipment mounted on the early Raven's is that it's useless. If you play with it in period battles the ECM function can only be used to jam other Ravens and the Active Probe is only useful if Hidden Units are used.

And the -3X has always been fluffed to use prototype TSM, it's just that we haven't had rules for it until now

[Kidd]

Agreed! When I think of a CC mech, I think of the Raven. It just fits the Capellan style, without bluntly rubbing "Look it's Chinese!" into your face like some of the Xin Sheng mechs.

Yup. Still looking for that Steiner Mech with the lederhosen.

[Empyrus]

The big problem with the EW Equipment mounted on the early Raven's is that it's useless. If you play with it in period battles the ECM function can only be used to jam other Ravens and the Active Probe is only useful if Hidden Units are used.

Since such Ravens are advanced/experimental level units, you'll be using TacOps anyway, so:
-Ghost Targets
-Communications equipment can function as ECM/ECCM/Ghost Targets
-Active Probes reduce the effect of Ghost Targets
-Active Probes can reduce effects of woods and smoke and such

And if playing scenarios:
-The EW Equipment might not be used for the usual effects but prevents enemy from calling reinforcements/artillery/air support as long as it is functional and stays on playing area
-As long as the EW Equipment is functional, you can call in reinforcements/artillery/air support (regardless of range or perhaps it is the only unit capable of spotting?)
-The Raven must be moved next to a specified target to prevent it from communicating, within x turns
-Buildings/trucks/etc. must be identified using active probe from next to them to find specific hidden item

The unit also gains value if playing between 3025 and 3050, if units with early Artemis IV (recovered in '35) and/or Narc (also in '35) are in play, though the value is considerably lesser, of course, as actual Guardian might exist.

(Had to post this before finishing as Windows started screwing things up)

[Frabby]

The big problem with the EW Equipment mounted on the early Raven's is that it's useless. If you play with it in period battles the ECM function can only be used to jam other Ravens and the Active Probe is only useful if Hidden Units are used.

That's kinda what I was aiming for with my earlier comment.
The EW equipment was purely a fluff device with no game rules effect for the longest time. Even the Liao Housebook and Warrior: Coupé gave only vague descriptions of what it does. It was somehow useful to jam enemy communication in the novel iirc.
When we got rules, these were extrapolated back from the EW equipment of the -3. But those in turn had little to do with how the EW Equipment had been described to work in earlier products. This created a difference between the rules for and the earliest descriptions of the equipment.

[Wrangler]

I like the idea having Electronic Warfare mech, i aways was disappointed in the my earlier games how Guardian ECM really didn't do alot in the game.  Tac Ops expanded this, making it more useful than before, especially with the inclusion of Ghost Targeting and errant that made more plausible option to use.

This history of Raven is interesting one for sure, i can say your completely right how Cappellans pulled unique stunt of producing such unique machine during time period when Great Houses barely had the ability to produce mechs, never mind make completely new designs like the Merlin, Hatchetman, and Wolfhound.

I agree with Frabby, Empyrus, i love how you wrote out this article.  Hope to see more in the future from you!

[misterpants]

At least for me (Chrome user), it looks like the captions are switched. I think it was an accident, but I find it hilariously Capellan and am imagining the Capellans attempting to alter enemy warbooks as misinformation.

"Sir, we've picked up twenty enemy Ravens, -3L models, up in those trees over there."

[Liam's Ghost]

Fun note about the interstellar ops beta as it relates to the drone variant of the Raven. The smart robotic control system rules in the Beta don't actually prohibit its use on bipeds anymore, however they do impose a piloting skill rating of 9 to all drone mechs. So (barring revision when the finalized book is released) the Raven drone is now perfectly legal and would work pretty much exactly the same as described in the Necromo nightmare adventure.

[Frabby]

So (barring revision when the finalized book is released) the Raven drone is now perfectly legal and would work pretty much exactly the same as described in the Necromo nightmare adventure.

Given that Necromo Nightmare was declared fully canon, I'm not surprised.

[garhkal]

Great article..  I always liked the raven, but felt its poor armor made it an easy target to get rid of.

[Empyrus]

At least for me (Chrome user), it looks like the captions are switched. I think it was an accident, but I find it hilariously Capellan and am imagining the Capellans attempting to alter enemy warbooks as misinformation.

"Sir, we've picked up twenty enemy Ravens, -3L models, up in those trees over there."

The captions are not switched... not by an accident by any rate.
Indeed i mention this in the closing thoughts section.
(Getting them "centered" properly wasn't easy, required a lot of manual spaces, as "center" command wouldn't put them to correct place.)

Fun note about the interstellar ops beta as it relates to the drone variant of the Raven. The smart robotic control system rules in the Beta don't actually prohibit its use on bipeds anymore, however they do impose a piloting skill rating of 9 to all drone mechs. So (barring revision when the finalized book is released) the Raven drone is now perfectly legal and would work pretty much exactly the same as described in the Necromo nightmare adventure.

Given that Necromo Nightmare was declared fully canon, I'm not surprised.

I missed the robotic control system changes from IO, the damn PDF loads so slowly it is borderline impossible to read (no other PDF i have has this issue).
Anyway, a post from HAbeas says "Adventure: Necromo Nightmare - Canon, but not necessarily as presented due to rules violations." ( http://bg.battletech.com/forums/general-discussion/tech-of-tro-1945/msg1100406/#msg1100406 )
So basically they acknowledge the issue, and have corrected it, more or less.
(Presumably smart robotic controls being restricted to Quads didn't make sense considering drone BattleMechs don't have to be Quads?)

[UnLimiTeD]

The captions are not switched... not by an accident by any rate.

For me, it says "Raven RVN-3L" below the picture of the mech, and corvus corax left of that, while the picture is right of it.
So maybe a deliberate switch like in the Ravager Article, but the spacing is wrong. To me at least.

[Empyrus]

For me, it says "Raven RVN-3L" below the picture of the mech, and corvus corax left of that, while the picture is right of it.
So maybe a deliberate switch like in the Ravager Article, but the spacing is wrong. To me at least.

Okay, i need to think about how i write what i mean.
Note to self: KISS principle.

The captions are very much intentional. It is a joke, a stupid joke perhaps, but one that illustrates the Raven very well. Har har.

/facedesk
I do, unfortunately, love terrible puns, visual and written.


Seriously, the spacing is matched for my 1600x900 screen with Google Chrome and 110% zoom.
...
Damn, i forgot that completely.

Bah, i'll fix it soon, i'll just make a picture that has both pictures and the caption, will solve spacing issues.

EDIT That should fix things. Man i hate image manipulation. I can do it, barely, but i hate it.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Looks good now.