What if? : Downgraded and primitive/retrotech Mechs were 3rd Succession War?

[Hammerhead]

As a thought experiment, I was pondering how the landscape of the succession wars would change if, to stave off the degradation of technology and production, manufacturers started remaking primitive and obsolete designs (Hammerhands, Firebee, etc.) and downgraded designs to curb the tide? Would the downgraded Devastator be a game-changing Mech? Would a Lance of Primitive Dervishes be attractive to local militias?

Mostly, I just like the idea of more variety in late Succession Wars play, but I wonder if the addition of these would alter the course of things too much. Any thoughts?

[Decoy]

Well, for most vehicles, it's easier on manpower to have a towed gun bring the weapons into combat.

For most 'mechs, I think  it would allow for a bigger militia/noble guard contingent, but....They go pop real easy.

[Colt Ward]

For most 'mechs, I think  it would allow for a bigger militia/noble guard contingent, but....They go pop real easy.

I took 2 Marian retro Centurions in a lance with a 9-Ar and a old Cataphract against modern forces (DA) . . . they contributed firepower and stayed standing decently, for the BV I was able to field a lance with some skills while most folks were fielding 2-3 mechs and some conventional IIRC.  They performed ok, but I do not think those who were facing them knew exactly how weak they were since the Cent 9-Ar and Cataphract were faced forward to draw fire.

Against what you find in 3025?  With mechs carrying over damage and missing components by narrative?  With easier components to repair and replicate they should do well . . . but it would also be like needing to go back an put armor belts on warships- could we do it, do we know how?  Sure it could be figured out.  BUT . . . the process has been skipped over, the tech neglected for so long- no one designs ships with armor any longer! 

[Decoy]

So, basically, you've accepted the fact that they go pop real easy and have used tactics to counter it.

Now, if we're going for the Mad Max memes, fusion engines are RARE. They can't and shouldn't be spent on primitive 'mechs that go pop easy. We really should be talking about security 'mechs or militia 'mechs utilizing ICE engines instead.

Yes, Yes. I'm well aware that an ARC-1A doesn't "go pop easy" , but once that armor shell is gone, it has more problems than standard battlemechs.

[VanVelding]

My understanding of the economics is that 1 million C-Bills of Introtech/Succession Wars-era technology is worth more than 1 Million C-Bills of primitive technology, even though 1 million C-Bills can buy you more of the latter. Further, my understanding is that the sophistication of production for some primitive gear is just as challenging as their more advanced counterparts, but improvements in construction yield better results for the same manufacturing resources. I've never had an exhaustive look at equipment ratings though.

But then, for primitive materials to which that doesn't apply, like ICE engines, you can theoretically produce those units with resources that couldn't otherwise be connected with proper production facilities or produce more of them. They aren't as good, but you've got something in more places than you might otherwise.

It would give you more units that are shorter ranged, slower, and/or easier to put down than regular units. They could be sniper support, defenders, ambushers, or able to bluff pirates to back down. So the end result might be more, and more damaging, battles as there are more forces to engage and misplacing your primitive elements is more catastrophic than it might otherwise be.

But yeah, I think a lot of local militias could be sold on buying primitive Dervishes.

[Red Pins]

I use these for an AU project, and while play testing them found that while some Mech was better than none, any sort of tech advantage was problematic.  Introtech tanks were mostly on par with them or slightly better,  about the only reason to take them was the advantage of Primitive fusion engines making them more desirable than ICE vehicles in some ways.

For the most part vehicles were better choices for Primitive tech, though.  It got to the point of reinforced lances of vehicles with an escorting lance of Mechs were a better option.

[glitterboy2098]

So, basically, you've accepted the fact that they go pop real easy and have used tactics to counter it.

depends on the design. generally primitives are slower than their standard tech descendants. the ones that aren't, tend to be the ones that are more fragile.

the big thing with primitives though is that they can be built in less advanced factories. such as the ones used to make industrialmechs. which means any manufacturing company that has plans for a primitive can easily build them as a sideline to their main production, and if your mech factories get damaged and can't produce full battlemechs any more, you could switch over to making industrials and Primitives in at least small batches.

[Red Pins]

They really belong in the deep Periphery in 3150 - a setting like that would be really interesting, fighting back against pirates, mer C companies looking for a nation state to conquer...  A fitting sequel to MW5!

[Metallgewitter]

Weren't there still "primitive" Mechs around during the SW? Of course the Quasit is a Milita mech not a full blown Battlemech.

In theory the idea doesn't sound bad though maybe more as a divide between garrison forces and frontline forces (in a mirror to the Clans). You build primitive Mechs for garrison or Periphery border duty while using the real Mechs for frontline duty. Is there any hint how fast primitive Mechs can be produced? Faster then modern Mechs?

[Red Pins]

Not to my knowledge - you'd have to check.  I imagine it would be comparable to standard 'Mechs, its just the lower technical requirements make them easier to build at second-tier facilities.

[Izzy193]

I mean I think retrotech mechs could be built and used in the 3rd SW, but that is just my opinion though I think we are all not taking into account ComStar as a possible variable here. Would ComStar even allow primitive units of any type to be developed and made?

One advantage I could see in 3rd SW of a successor state making Primtive/Retrotech mechs is being able to even make them in the first place. Fusion Engines from what's been discussed seem to be difficult to make overall but I am not sure so far if primitive fusion engines would be just as difficult to make even if you made them at less capable facilities.

Sorry if this is necroing an old thread, just getting my thoughts out there.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Maybe it requires more nuance into the infrastructure rating of a world, the dividing line between 'primitive' and standard Succession era tech.

E.g. tech sophistication rating B, but industrial development C might mean they can produce primitive mechs. Moving to industrial dev B means Succession era tech at least.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Well, if Cornstar is supporting the Periphery against the Big Five, I'd see them bootstrapping them up to standard tech 'Mechs and giving them a parity against the Houses.  It's a bit schizophrenic since at the same time Holy Shroud is rubbing out R&D programs you'd have C* improving Periphery tech to at least the same level as their potential opponents.  Enough to make them a threat to the Houses...

[Colt Ward]

Nothing says ComStar has to bootstrap their tech levels . . . those deep space ComStar colonies could be producing primitive designs and giving them to Periphery groups to help them raid the Houses.  Houses dismiss them, figuring some periphery bum found a cache of primitive designs- especially if 'flavored' locally- and ignore them because they are not 'full' mechs.  This would also let those ComStar colonies, say whatever faction of ComStar the Master ended up controlling, work out their own production for eventually being able to build SL-era designs from the Terran data-cores.

It is a win win for ComStar- raids the Houses to sap their military, lost mechs do not really 'strengthen' the Houses, and they kill off some periphery upstarts due to having to battle with numbers against standard tech.

[Wrangler]

If Inner sphere went that way by the Third Succession War, Fourth Succession War won't have happened.  The Second Reunification War would have happened with ComStar rolling over everyone with their Star League tech machines.

[Minemech]

 Afore Focht, the Comguards were ludicrously incompetent. Star League tech did not help them much against normal pirates.

[truetanker]

I gladly replace Standard Plate for Heavy Commercial Plate any time.

Less stress...

TT

[Von Jankmon]

I don't see much of a market for primitive battlemechs.  The standard mech of 3025 is basic enough and solid if used,  furthermore the factories that make them can churn them out.  The more primitive factories do not have the production rate so any deliberately produced primitive mechs will be inferior in quantity as well as quality.

However what would be of use are primitive components for common mech designs.  I can see a market for generic parts to slap a primitive reactor or myomer into a wrecked mech to get it back to a semblance of working order.

[truetanker]

Consider this, Primitive mechs as faster and cheaper productions of the slightly better classic.

If you need a certain amount of material production quality but also need to rearm faster, do you produce 2 classic mechs or 3 primitives if both use the same amount of material?

And your paid an equal amount per unit...

It will bootstrap your economy, massively arm your forces and hopefully outstrip your enemies resources to produce.

TT

[The Wobbly Guy]

Consider this, Primitive mechs as faster and cheaper productions of the slightly better classic.

If you need a certain amount of material production quality but also need to rearm faster, do you produce 2 classic mechs or 3 primitives if both use the same amount of material?

And your paid an equal amount per unit...

It will bootstrap your economy, massively arm your forces and hopefully outstrip your enemies resources to produce.

Not to mention 3 mechs can cover more ground and defend more stuff than 2 mechs. It's like the usual debate about the optimal size for a navy - big fleet with small ships, or small fleet with big ships?

Also, you would have more mechwarriors gaining experience, and a larger pool would eventually yield more veterans and elites, all else being equal. Then you pop your veteran and elite pilots in your small pool of better mechs.

[Metallgewitter]

And one more thing: Primitive Mechs don't need that much sophisticated production facilities. You could in theory produce it on planets that might have heavy industry but no clout to begin real BattleMech production. Just look at New Hessen: the Hessen Workmech factory became legendary for churning out over 100 of their own developed Rook Mech. Probably the most sophisticated parts would be the weaponry.

[truetanker]

And the best part is you'll get more trained to man your slowly built basics while fielding enough primitives to be able to replenish your losses, without losing production.

TT

[Hammerhead]

This has given me much to think about. It kinda lends itself to the “MT” from the Armored Core Video games a bit I think; the Battlemechs are for the true Mechwarriors and Mechwarrior families, while the primitives and old models are for the academies, militias, low-budget Mercs, and raider / pirate fodder, etc.

I think I may work this into my headcannon Succession Wars.

[Von Jankmon]

I believe the thinking here is wrongheaded.

Primitive mechs exist either in deep periphery areas that never had the level 1 technology, and as historical units.

Just because something is primitive doesn't make it cheaper.  It might have lower BV but that doesn't mean anything to a procurement department.

A planet wanting to make a mech factory must tax the same number of goat farmers the same number of goats to get either technology, primitive just being easier to come by.
Lets take our own history, a first rate battle tank costs about as much to build in real terms if it is a Panther, a Conqueror or an Abrams, you can either build better or you can't, and that is due to access to tooling and technical know how, and in some cases materials, not money.

If you want to go primitive you need to learn from the Capellans, who remembered history and came up with the Po, or for that matter the Vindicator, but the latter was in somewhat better times.  Both were rugged and reliable and held to the accessible technology of the time, but never left common sense behind or became too cheap to be of good service.

If you want a budget mech for lean times take standard technology and build it cheap.  Make it light but don't pile on the speed, engines and gyros are expensive.  The classic AC5 and medium laser is a good baseline for firepower, but with 4/6 rather than 6/9 speed on a 40-45 ton chassis.  Armour is cheap too, so you can afford max out, and skimp on wunderfwaffe like the PPC.  Then double down and make zillions of the little bastards, fill them with half trained conscripts, distribute them to all your border worlds and throw them at the enemy.

My favourite concept for a backstop mech design, yes this is head-canon but we are speculating;  was to take a very generic mech: Stinger or Wasp.  Take your pick it won't matter and retrofit it with a three or four ton chassis.  Build accordingly, but keep all the advanced equipment just as it is.  Which means cockpit controls, myomer, engine and gyro being direct port overs.  The only energy weapon allowed being the ported over medium laser, so you are adding light autocannon and missile racks only.  A 30 ton Stinger becomes an honourary medium, with some limited firepower, with  I think the better choice is a 40 ton Stinger which becomes a 'micro Atlas', same 3/5 speed with room for a small autocannon and some missiles.  It probably doesn't jump because they would involve a lot of recalibration which goes beyond the scope of the design studio.  I suspect it wobbles a bit while moving at run speed.  But it should have dangerous firepower, especially in numbers, enough armour that they would be a chore to shoot through and are likely available in obscenely high numbers distributed over a lot of backwater planets.

[Red Pins]

A '3-4 ton chassis'?  Sorry, what component is that?  Or, are you speaking of the entirety of the engine, internal structure, cockpit, Gyro - the mechs basic structure?ļ

I think we're talking past each other here.  The reason these Primitive units ARE CHEAPER is from two perspectives (or 3, if you count out-of-universe BPV.)

First, economically, the existence of 2nd line, lower technical facilities capable of production or assembly constitute a possible increase in military production.  More advanced, purely military facilities are unable to expand production meaningfully during the 3rd SSW; their products are correspondingly rare and valuable.  Primitives, built to a lower technical standard, ŵill thus be likely cheaper.*

*I confess, I'm writing this in bed at 2 am local; I can't open a book or window to check the cost of Primitive components but i would suggest someone check.

Second, infrastructure, education, mass production, and a couple other imponderables.  I suspect the Rook and Hsien are responsible for the idea, "Primitives are less expensive', but the fact is they were built to a minimum standard by a single tax base in the middle of a conflict, albeit on a military budget.

The rook is NOT a good example, however, using a freakin' PPC as it's main weapon.  And don't even mention ballistic weapons; foundries don't magically produce barrels and autoloaders.  Distasteful as it is in terms of budget, missile weapons like SRMs or MRMs would possibly be cheaper in the long run to a local government.

Speaking of which, yes, the deep Periphery Microstates would be ideal, since they would replicate the same, surrounded by pirates situation as Hsien.

[Von Jankmon]

A '3-4 ton chassis'?  Sorry, what component is that?  Or, are you speaking of the entirety of the engine, internal structure, cockpit, Gyro - the mechs basic structure?ļ

Turn a Stinger into a 30 or 40 ton mech with a 3 or 4 ton chassis replacement.  The rest of the internals including anything advanced remains the same.  You lose any mobility you had but gain space to add in some non-energy weapons and armour.  LRMs, SRMs and max armour tonnage being the go-tos.
The result is a slow moving militia mech with good firepower for its mass, and enough staying power to be worth deploying in defence of whatever installation is nearby.

I think that is a decent use of an old Stinger or twelve.

[RifleMech]

It would have been interesting if manufacturers did produced Primitive and Retrotech Mechs during the later Succession Wars. However, I seem to remember that one of the bottlenecks was fusion engines. They were hard enough to get that techs were taking them out of tanks to keep the Mechs running. If that's still true, I don't know why it would be easier to produce Primitive Fusion Engines. Which makes me wonder where all the LowTech Mechs are. I think there could be some decent Mechs using ICE, FC, and Fission Engines. A Primitive Fusion Engine would be better but a lower tech engine is better than no engine.

I also wonder where the units, with odd sized engines are. Sure a lower rated engine has a loss in speed and a higher rated engine has an increase in weight but it's still better than no engine.

[Metallgewitter]

Not hard enough to get that the Lyran Commonwealth actually spend a lot of kroner to build new factories to supply brand new fusion engines for their new Rommel and Patton tanks. The main issue is probably more that the knowledge to build new factories or even design new fusion engines is very limited. Remember when the Gray Death Legion found the Helm memory core? Grayson took a quick glance over the data and it contained production methods that were more efficient then what they knew at this point.

Though it is still an interesting question why no one bothered to build more primitive engines which according to the lore requirtes a less skilled workstaff, less resources and less sophisticated production facilities. Maybe it was also a way of ensuring that the nobility statys on top. After all, less MEchs means that only noble Mech owners are on the top of the pecking order. Heck in the IP 1 book in the Warrior Cabal section the writer states that Hanse was actually clever: by having more state owned Mechs in the army he gave "peasants" the chance to become Mech pilots and thus it was diluting the influence of the "noble" warriors

[Colt Ward]

I am with the crowd of they should have been producing primitive engines for the tanks they were pulling SFEs from or even using them for battlemechs with troublesome sizes or supply chain problems.

Because IMO size vs power equation usually comes down to miniaturization.  Look at the size of the reactor they used after the bomb was discovered vs what they fit in submarines now . . . or heck, they talk about putting on spacecraft.

BUT we also have to remember that this stuff did not exist when they started back filling like they did with the Thunderbolt 5L, let alone when they wrote the early setting materials.

You want to roll out a campaign where someone inherits their father's mech, a old Orion or Archer, that due to availability had to put in a ancient PFE dropping that mech's speed to 3/5 . . . and your dream is to earn a SFE to restore your father's mech to it's glory?  Sounds like a cool campaign.

[RifleMech]

The Rommel and Patton tanks were introed in 3027 when the IS was already starting to recover and the FWL still made a ICE version called the Axel in 3036 so fusion engines were becoming more available but not everywhere. So there would still be a need for alternative to standard fusion engines. Primitive fusion engines would be a good replacement but with fusion being so much better than the alternatives I suspect that if anyone tried to produce them they'd have been a target for nukes or ROM.