Author Topic: How is tank operation different in BT?  (Read 4737 times)

Alan Grant

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How is tank operation different in BT?
« on: 09 December 2023, 08:52:13 »
Over the years I haven't spent a lot of time really thinking about the experience of combat vehicle crews in Battletech. So I'm looking to plug that gap.

I'm wondering how vehicle operation in Battletech is different than what a tanker in real life might experience. How the technology differences might impact vehicle operations for the crew. For example, thinking about of the more obvious questions. If tankers make use of anything akin to neurohelmet tech. How the inclusion of fusion reactors might impact their experience or necessary tasks as well (like if the reactors require a bit more hands-on maintaining or control than that for mechwarriors). That's just two areas that feel like they beg the question but I'm sure I'm missing other areas.

This could be in RPG terms but I'm also thinking about the details that would matter to a fan fiction writer trying to write a scene depicting a vehicle crew in detail.
« Last Edit: 09 December 2023, 09:10:14 by Alan Grant »

AlphaMirage

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #1 on: 09 December 2023, 09:22:05 »
I think there is little need for some advanced neurohelmet, that is basically for stability and aim assist. More likely the gunner and commander have something like the attack helo gun sight that can be slaved to the turret.

The reactor could explain the high crew numbers but I imagine it is pretty modular, just that these modules are super hightech.

I expect hovertanks could incorporate some kind of driving assistance to keep them under control at high speed.

Lone-Wolf

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #2 on: 09 December 2023, 10:06:59 »
And I would like to add the question of how to operate the weapon systems.

I once saw on youtube a video about operating the main gun on an M1 tank.
The shells are in a turret compartment, where the door is open only for less than two seconds. In this time you have to withdraw the shell or your hands / lower arms are hurt or even cut off.
Or do they have autoloaders?

So, in 3025 without CASE it may be the same, but what about later?
CASE pretects the crew so how is the shell transferred to the gun if no autoloader?
Is the shell first put in a seperate department and then handed to the loader?

AlphaMirage

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #3 on: 09 December 2023, 10:21:59 »
I'd expect it would differ by design. The abstraction of Battletech doesn't allow for the advantages of a loader vs autoloader. I expect autoloader is standard but there are some giant turrets on most BT Tanks (a low profile turret being one of those advantages)

There is also far more secondary weapons that might need dedicated gunners.

With so many energy weapons on higher end tanks there is probably a power management crewman and maybe a heat sink specialist in addition to the standard crews.

Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #4 on: 09 December 2023, 11:06:23 »
On the other hand there are also 1 man tanks like the Savannah Master and the J.Edgar that use fusion engines and in the case of the J. Edgar a missile launcher.
From all the novels it often sounds as if all tanks use some sort of Auto-loader. Which would make sense as the weapons used by tanks are also used ba Battlemechs. Why design special weapons for tanks that are basically the same as the ones in Fighters, Mechs and Dropships? The only difference is that tanks are designed to basically be immune to heat (well except perhaps when immolated in inferno gel) as they can alpha strike every turn

Failure16

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #5 on: 09 December 2023, 11:52:41 »
The J. Edgar is a two-crew AFV. No doubt on that, by rules, or fluff.

All standard ammo-based weapons in the BTU utilize autoloaders. Even including the archaic Rifles, everything is an autocannon or multi-tube missile launcher. The extra crew is ridiculous, brought about by people who knew nothing about AFV operation. It's just the way it is.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #6 on: 09 December 2023, 14:40:38 »
The J. Edgar is a two-crew AFV. No doubt on that, by rules, or fluff.

All standard ammo-based weapons in the BTU utilize autoloaders. Even including the archaic Rifles, everything is an autocannon or multi-tube missile launcher. The extra crew is ridiculous, brought about by people who knew nothing about AFV operation. It's just the way it is.

Really? I remember in the St Ives novels that one St Ives soldier piloting a J.Edgar alone. I might have to read up on that again. I get the bigger crew argument though. You still need a commander, a gunner and at least a radio operator on the bigger tanks. But I think loaders are a part of the past.

Failure16

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #7 on: 09 December 2023, 15:30:45 »
To be fair, I'm going off the one crew-per-15-tonnes rule paradigm and sources like TRO3039 for crewing levels in general and for the J. Edgar in particular. If you know which novel it was in, I will gladly peruse it, but that timeframe/era is not on my radar of things to know intuitively. So, you could well be right, but I'd like to know the context regardless. Cheers.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
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Alan Grant

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #8 on: 09 December 2023, 20:07:25 »
AlphaMirage mentioned a power management crew role and maybe even a heat sinks crew role.

I could see the vehicle having more of those kinds of roles, rather than loaders.

Do BT vehicles have radar or sensors of some kind? I could see a crew member devoted to that.

This thought tree makes a lot of sense to me. It speaks to the idea that many vehicles have grown in sophistication, required specialized knowledge and roles. While some of them have overcome those issues via automation, yet others, especially those with the physical space for it (the bigger vehicles), have gone the route of including more human bodies rather than automation (or alongside automation).

At the higher end, 75-100 tons, these vehicles might start to feel like you are crewing a small naval vessel moreso than a tank. IF you have a power management person, a sensors operator, a dedicated engine tech, etc. That's what it starts to feel like (in theory).

'Mechs went the route of automating a lot of this stuff so everything could be managed by the mechwarrior, leaving a lot of things entirely in the hands of automation. Vehicles kept more things in the hands of more human bodies. Some automation may still be there, they just may not trust it to keep working through the wear and tear of combat operations. But out of sheer necessity (lack of space) they may rely on it more in lighter vehicles.


To be honest the thing that has surprised me the most about this thread is how... unsettled these issues feel. Do we really not have any canon literature anywhere that covers combat vehicle operations at this level?

I'm still uncertain about basics. Like whether the crews have the tech to "see" outside the hull via helmet tech, or whether they are using old fashioned tank optics.
« Last Edit: 09 December 2023, 20:09:12 by Alan Grant »

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #9 on: 09 December 2023, 21:39:36 »
Schmetzer's Sniper Jones stories Sniper and Panzer, in that order, are very good, and feature the crew of a Schreck.  He describes a three man combat crew, commander, gunner, and driver, with IIRC mention of reactor techs that are left at base when the tank rolls out (so not exactly the rules-standard crew, but kinda).  Snipe Hunt is another good one, featuring the crew of a Pegasus (again commander, driver, gunner, but in this case that's as per the rules).  Some of the Chaos Irregulars stories also feature a J. Edgar crew of two. Any of those would be good reading.
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The Wobbly Guy

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #10 on: 10 December 2023, 01:54:52 »
Canon sources include the 2 men crew of the Carnivore tank Fraticide - just driver n gunner.

Some of this stuff was discussed in the thread on how the Clans conduct their ToP for combat vehicle crew.

worktroll

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #11 on: 10 December 2023, 03:50:07 »
The J. Edgar is a two-crew AFV. No doubt on that, by rules, or fluff.

The extra crew is ridiculous, brought about by people who knew nothing about AFV operation. It's just the way it is.

IIRC, the original FASA crew who wrote BattleDroids/BattleTech included a bunch of ex-Navy ex-Carrier types, which I think does bleed through in a number of areas.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #12 on: 10 December 2023, 11:05:40 »
IIRC, the original FASA crew who wrote BattleDroids/BattleTech included a bunch of ex-Navy ex-Carrier types, which I think does bleed through in a number of areas.
I wonder if 40k didn’t influence it as well.  I think a Baneblade has a crew of about 10.  Even a Leman Russ has a crew of 6.
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Ghaz

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #13 on: 10 December 2023, 11:26:32 »
I wonder if 40k didn’t influence it as well.  I think a Baneblade has a crew of about 10.  Even a Leman Russ has a crew of 6.

Or it could be real life.  For example, the Tank, Infantry, Mk IV Churchill had a crew of five (commander, gunner, loader/radio operator, driver, co-driver/hull gunner) and the Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus would have had a crew of six (commander, gunner, 2 loaders, driver, radio operator).


Ruger

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #14 on: 10 December 2023, 12:28:32 »
Or it could be real life.  For example, the Tank, Infantry, Mk IV Churchill had a crew of five (commander, gunner, loader/radio operator, driver, co-driver/hull gunner) and the Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus would have had a crew of six (commander, gunner, 2 loaders, driver, radio operator).

The largest portion of larger light tanks and virtually all the medium tanks (and maybe heavy tanks) from the 30’s through the early 50’s I’ve read about had crews of five.

Tanks from WW1 had even larger crews, with the German A7V requiring crews of 18 to 25 EACH. The British Mark 1-Mark V tanks had a more reasonable crew complement of about 8 each.

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Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #15 on: 10 December 2023, 13:13:42 »
To be fair, I'm going off the one crew-per-15-tonnes rule paradigm and sources like TRO3039 for crewing levels in general and for the J. Edgar in particular. If you know which novel it was in, I will gladly peruse it, but that timeframe/era is not on my radar of things to know intuitively. So, you could well be right, but I'd like to know the context regardless. Cheers.

That should be Threads of Ambition. The character is a young St Ives Mechwarrior candidate who gets demoted to tanker and if I remember correctly he settles for a J.Edgar because he wants to keep the "sole pilot" feeling or something like that.

While we are on WW2 tanks: French tanks were infamous for having only 2 or 3 men crew with the Commander pulling double or triple duty as commander, gunner and loader.
A same issue had the Soviets with their T-34 with the commander doing two jobs which was corrected with the T34-85
« Last Edit: 10 December 2023, 13:22:23 by Metallgewitter »

Failure16

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #16 on: 10 December 2023, 13:15:07 »
Listen to what you are all saying: In the 31st Century, war has progressed to somewhere between 1917 and 1942. I think the BTU can do better than that.

Worktroll has the right of it, at least in fundamentals. I have heard the same rumors, but can in no way corroborate it.

I wonder if 40k didn’t influence it as well.  I think a Baneblade has a crew of about 10.  Even a Leman Russ has a crew of 6.

Warhammer 40K did not come out until later, though, of course, the actual BT vehicle-crewing/staffing rules came out much later yet again. I doubt it, though. But anything in WH40K is ridiculous insofar as a correlation between our world and theirs.

« Last Edit: 10 December 2023, 13:46:40 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
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Failure16

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #17 on: 10 December 2023, 13:18:05 »
That should be Threads of Ambition. The character is a young St Ives Mechwarrior candidate who gets demoted to tanker and if I remember correctly he settles for a J.Edgar because he wants to keep the "sole pilot" feeling or something like that.

Thanks. I'll look into it. Much appreciated. But we know from other sources that is an outlier that should very well have been caught by the editor/factcheckers, even back then. I mean, try to wrap your head around the concept of a hovercraft travelling at 150 kph with a turret, all controlled by a single trooper. It certainly makes the Locust seem easy to control and fight.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
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Cannonshop

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #18 on: 10 December 2023, 14:40:31 »
Over the years I haven't spent a lot of time really thinking about the experience of combat vehicle crews in Battletech. So I'm looking to plug that gap.

I'm wondering how vehicle operation in Battletech is different than what a tanker in real life might experience. How the technology differences might impact vehicle operations for the crew. For example, thinking about of the more obvious questions. If tankers make use of anything akin to neurohelmet tech. How the inclusion of fusion reactors might impact their experience or necessary tasks as well (like if the reactors require a bit more hands-on maintaining or control than that for mechwarriors). That's just two areas that feel like they beg the question but I'm sure I'm missing other areas.

This could be in RPG terms but I'm also thinking about the details that would matter to a fan fiction writer trying to write a scene depicting a vehicle crew in detail.

How many guys do you need to fix/break track in the field? how many do you need for security while the crew are doing basic PMCS maintenance?

Consider this: Abrams has a main gun (two guys-gunner and loader), a driver's position, and a commander.

Pretty much the same layout as the M-60, late model M-48...but the M-47 had a bow machine gun in addition to the coax and the turret-roof external mounts (which require either a cupola, or an open hatch for the commander and loader to operate).

every additional gun requires maintenance, just like every other part of the machine, and not just rear-area or depot level maintenance, but the basics when you're in the field.   Failure to maintain your shit gets you killed.  Parked, with hatches open, in the field makes you vulnerable, it's good to have overwatch, and it's good to have extra hands for jobs like replacing track plates or stringing your tracks back together and replacing the pins, because that's hard-ass work, and you're not always going to be able to do it with a nice overcoat jacket of friendlies to deal with random encounters.

same would likely go for wheeled vehicles-tyres are HEAVY, especially the kind that are rated to carry the kind of loads BT armored vehicles impose, and you don't always have benefit of a HMMTT with a crane-sometimes you have to do it with the really primitive tools in the stow bins, it's nicer if you don't ALSO have to be keeping an eye out for that squad of enemy troops who got separated or lost and are looking to kill you and steal your ride.

just sayin', sometimes the reasons aren't instantly apparent because Battletech glosses over things like 'making field repairs so you don't die'.
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Maingunnery

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #19 on: 10 December 2023, 14:55:01 »
I can see the point of having the extra crew onboard to be astech/security/trainees.
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Praetorian Hard

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #20 on: 10 December 2023, 19:32:45 »
And I would like to add the question of how to operate the weapon systems.

I once saw on youtube a video about operating the main gun on an M1 tank.
The shells are in a turret compartment, where the door is open only for less than two seconds. In this time you have to withdraw the shell or your hands / lower arms are hurt or even cut off.
Or do they have autoloaders?

So, in 3025 without CASE it may be the same, but what about later?
CASE pretects the crew so how is the shell transferred to the gun if no autoloader?
Is the shell first put in a seperate department and then handed to the loader?
The door separating the primary ammo from the crew on an M1 is operated by the loader, there’s a switch they bump with their knee. As the loader moves to push the round into the breach the switch is released and the door closes. As for CASE I’ve always thought of it as nearly identical to what the Abrams currently has. If the ammo cooks off the blast goes out the back of the turret instead of into where the crew is. That separation can be achieved with a human loader or an auto loader. BT universe worked that out with mechs and certainly would apply that auto loading tech to combat vees.

paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #21 on: 11 December 2023, 00:01:41 »
Quote
I wonder if 40k didn’t influence it as well.  I think a Baneblade has a crew of about 10.  Even a Leman Russ has a crew of 6.
Leman Russ makes sense at up to eight. Basic crew: driver, gunner, commander. Then the bow gunner. A loader or two if the main gun requires them and the exact configuration of the ammunition. Then a gunner for each sponson. It's a lot of guys, but the tank can do a lot of stuff. EDIT : This really means BT needs to revisit the crew numbers. 1/15 tons is not as useful as one per gun position plus a driver, loaders as needed, and maybe a separate commander (based on the developing state's philosophy on commander and gunner vs. commander/gunner). Beyond fluff and campaign/RPG considerations, this is potential quirk territory; a tank with multiple weapon locations might be able to engage multiple targets without the multiple target modifiers so long as they are not engaging multiple targets with weapons mounted in the same location.

RE: operator-level maintenance. Make it happen with the crew positions that you need to operate the tank. You don't get extra bodies with no combat job riding in the tank just to fix it. It's why bow gunners went away when we found out what a bad idea bow guns really are; co-driver/radio operator isn't a legitimate combat task in the tank that justifies getting another trooper schwacked with the tank.

RE: sensor operators, etc. If these functions require dedicated personnel rather than being automated assistance to the crewman who needs it, they are poorly designed. A sensor should cue the commander and/or gunner to a threat, not require another body to monitor the raw data, interpret it, and then tell the crewman who can do something about it. The same with "heat management". If I have to monitor my tank's temperature gauge, the tank design sucks.
« Last Edit: 11 December 2023, 00:09:39 by paladin2019 »
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paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #22 on: 11 December 2023, 00:28:10 »
To expand on the crew bit, let's take Failure16's avatar, the cover of Record Sheets Vol. 5. Such a tank would, at a minimum, require a driver and gunner. It has a MG mounted in the bow, requiring a second gunner. And the illustration shows two personnel on top. If they are not enemy infantry attempting to assault the tank, they are likely the tank commander and either an infantryman coordinating with him or the mechwarrior from the zapped Wolverine hitching a ride. While a commander gives us the same 4 man crew 1/15 tons does, it is a more logical methodology. Using the same methodology, the same-weight Maxim would arguably have up to 5 gunners as well as a driver. A commander would be absolutely essential in coordinating such a beast.

As a quirk, this crew arrangement could mean the MG could engage a different target than the turret weapons without invoking a secondary target modifier on the attack roll. Such a quirk might be numerically rated at 2-5 as the number of facings that can fire without penalty to restrict the aforementioned Maxim from deathblossoming willy-nilly.
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RifleMech

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #23 on: 11 December 2023, 00:49:36 »
I think there's a variety of crew sizes from WWI tanks with lots of crew to high tech tanks with just one crew member. The number of crew vary depending on the size and tech level of the tank. Modern lighter tanks would just have the one crew member with automated turrets like the one on the Gabriel or slaved to the pilot's helmet like the one on the Warrior. Bigger tanks would add more crew as they increase in size, starting with a gunner, then a commander and a com/sensor officer and additional gunners. How many gunners depends on the targeting system. Lower tech tanks end up with more gunners per weapon or facing. For modern combat vehicles, I think some of those extra gunners double as replacements for other crew in case of injury. Other gear, like com equipment add extra crew.


AlphaMirage

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #24 on: 11 December 2023, 04:18:36 »
I put my philosophy down in my Point Barrows guide (link in sit below). Battletech tanks are very explicitly less advanced than the mechs. That is true in sensors, heat capacity, environmental systems, and primary power plant in most cases.

They do have two advantages though; being able to easily engage multiple targets without penalty (using it's extra crew) and the option to incorporate exotic motive systems.

My thoughts were there is a primary gunner that runs the turret and an assistant gunner that runs everything else (side and front mounted weapons). Having an onboard engineer would make sense to maintain the fusion power plant right behind you while in battle with the absence of the DI computer.

Energy management could be a very key part, power amps and heat sinks are not presumed to be automated. Plus someone is executing some kind of in battle repair since she's me of the critical effects are one turn disabling of a weapon.

Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #25 on: 11 December 2023, 05:40:06 »
Heat capacity? For one tanks in the BT universe are designed to never overheat. A tank with ballistic weapons doesn't even need heatsinks as the heat is vented outside unlike a Mech whose heat is build up inside and needs heatsinks to reduce it. But there is also a downside in terms of space: a tank with energy weapons needs enough heatsinks to fire it's entire complement of weapons at once. Which means more heatsinks which means less tons for armor (the Schrek PPC carrier says hello). Plus unlike Mechs tanks can't use the advanced double heatsinks. That is probbaly what you meant right? And power amplifiers are usually only needed when you mate energy weapons with an ICE engine (like the first Ontos) Though an onboard egineer would make sense as a commander probably hasn't the knowhow on how to monitor the engine and power circuits.

AlphaMirage

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #26 on: 11 December 2023, 06:38:19 »
Yeah I know all that, was looking for potential alternative crew positions to bulk out to the 7 in order to add flavor. There are some other ICE tanks with lasers to, the Ontos was the one I used as an example.

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #27 on: 11 December 2023, 08:37:54 »
I often think about crew numbers when looking at the M1 Marksman series, which TacOps gives a crew of seven. This is what I've got as a wild guess:

Commander
Driver
Main Gunner(focused on the Gauss Rifle)
Loader(not hand-loading stuff, but operating/monitoring the various autoloaders)
Gunner's Mate(handles all the other weapons, especially when not firing at the same target as the Gauss)
Driver's Mate(co-driver, plus adjusts the suspension, track, etc in anticipation of upcoming terrain)
Engineer(monitors the reactor and all other systems, also assists with comms and sensors)
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #28 on: 11 December 2023, 09:51:02 »
I'm still quite shocked this is so unsettled in the BT universe. I mean canon sources.

But I guess given the lack of canon facts. I'll contribute to the speculation game...

Couple roles I can easily see:

Navigator/Pathfinder: Like driver but different. While the driver is dealing with immediate situation awareness around the vehicle, the navigator/pathfinder is looking more at maps and other directional tools and providing a more forward-looking plan for the driver to follow.

Imagine the driving directions provided by a smartphone, but it's a person telling you the directions. That's the Navigator/Pathfinder.

I know computer games aren't real life or even Battletech, but I've found myself doing this when playing military games that have multi-crew tanks. If the player driving the tank doesn't know the map, another player in a different crew position starts eyeballing the map and providing directives on where the driver should take us. That includes details like where to turn. What road to take, where to cross a river at, etc. So the driver's nose isn't stuck in the game map and they can actually watch the road (and watch out for mines, trees etc. )

We know Battletech technology is capable of pegging waypoints on a map. But I'm not sure it's as good at actually finding the best way to get from A-Z. This can be particularly problematic for a tank given the terrain restrictions.

In smaller vehicles, the commander fills this role. In larger ones, I can easily see it going to another person.


Sensor Operator: The tech being similar to BattleMechs, so you are bringing something akin to radar in the mix. But that would give you an extra brain to sort through the messiness. The mechwarrior games love to simplify things and identify enemies for you and cut through all the extra stuff so you don't have to think about it. You don't have to figure out if the movement from a civilian vehicle is an enemy or not, or if the heat coming off a geothermal power plant vent is a hostile.

But I think the reality is actually probably a lot harder. Occasionally the Battletech universe has even called this out by getting mechwarriors confused in odd terrain or confused by odd signals. Sometimes they use this like a plot device in novels and sourcebooks. So, devoting a person to this makes a lot of sense to me.

To me the above two roles become akin to luxuries. They are actually nice to have, welcomed additions to the crew. They free up the driver and commander to focus on other things. If you have the space to have them.
« Last Edit: 11 December 2023, 12:12:56 by Alan Grant »

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #29 on: 11 December 2023, 12:20:39 »
I always assumed that tanks don't have the same level of sensor suite that 'Mechs do, and that part of that is why tanks are less expensive to purchase and maintain.  Radar may be an old technology as of the 31st Century, but it's finicky.  I know from working with a JTAC team directing a JSTARs in Iraq that radar can pick up a LOT of stuff that you don't particularly want to look at, and any radar looking at the ground is even worse that a radar looking at sky.  Automation can screen some of the clutter out, but now you're adding even more to the expense.  Start throwing in other sensors like MAGRES and you're looking at a LOT of expensive and delicate equipment.

The extent of vehicle sensor suites, in my mind, would be tried-and-true equipment like rangefinders or the short-range incoming early-warning systems like Trophy.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #30 on: 11 December 2023, 12:35:22 »
Exactly the basic vehicle sensor suite is about 75% as good as that of a mech (by old TacOps 222) although that could be related to their horizon distance. They can probably be a little bulkier, don't need to be as heat-engineered, or automated, so that probably gives you a price break.

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #31 on: 11 December 2023, 14:48:53 »
You have to admit tanks don't need much for a good targeting system (neither do Mechs) Most combat distances are not even a kilometer between combatants. The majority of weapons don't have that much range at least energy weapons. For real life comparism the 88 gun that was used by the Germans in their Tiger 2 tank had a range of 3 kilometers (or at the very least it was said that it could rip of the turret of a T-34 at this range) What is the BT counterpart? A light AC perhaps? Battletech fights are usually slugging matches at close range unless you can slag an opponents cockpit with a Gauss rifle

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #32 on: 11 December 2023, 15:26:47 »
I always assumed that tanks don't have the same level of sensor suite that 'Mechs do, and that part of that is why tanks are less expensive to purchase and maintain.  Radar may be an old technology as of the 31st Century, but it's finicky.  I know from working with a JTAC team directing a JSTARs in Iraq that radar can pick up a LOT of stuff that you don't particularly want to look at, and any radar looking at the ground is even worse that a radar looking at sky.  Automation can screen some of the clutter out, but now you're adding even more to the expense.  Start throwing in other sensors like MAGRES and you're looking at a LOT of expensive and delicate equipment.

The extent of vehicle sensor suites, in my mind, would be tried-and-true equipment like rangefinders or the short-range incoming early-warning systems like Trophy.

Lostech has a section on remote sensors, specifically portable radar (tripod mounts). Part of that notes on page 108 that radar can be detected by other radar equipped units. It says "nearly every vehicle does."

I have no trouble believing they may be degrees of better or worse versions. I've seen plenty of stuff in BT fluffed as having better computers, or a better tracking system than standard, yada yada. It's largely consigned to fluff that has been simplified for tabletop, but its there.


EDIT: Finally found something canon that speaks to vehicle crews. Techmanual page 92. References commanders, drivers, and gunners plural. Talks about how an effective gunnery team can control the targeting, tracking systems, monitor ammunition and fire their weapons. It also talks about how they can coordinate their actions to engage multiple targets with precision.

So it sounds like BT has indeed leaned hard into the idea that many vehicles have multiple gunners.
« Last Edit: 11 December 2023, 15:52:20 by Alan Grant »

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #33 on: 11 December 2023, 16:39:17 »
Well given that you have tanks with close to 20 weapon systems and some with two or 1, I figure they have to be using autoloaders. For example
,The Scorpion probably has 1 driver and 1 commander/gunner to shoot the AC/5 and MG and tell the driver where to go.

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #34 on: 11 December 2023, 17:47:12 »
The in-book fiction in A Time of War Companion follows a Scorpion crew for a while, at least until they died horrible deaths. I think they had 3-man crews.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #35 on: 12 December 2023, 09:31:35 »
Yeah, I mean any tank that has an armament & layout at all similar to current-day MBTs is probably going to have a crew similar to current-day MBTs.  One of my personal favorites, for example, is the Goblin IFV.  It'll need a gunner for the turret laser & SRM, a driver, a commander, and a gunner for the bow MG.  An LGR-Ontos on the other hand, despite the 1-per-15-tons rule, can operate just fine with a commander, gunner, and driver.

I think the crazy crew issues won't really crop up until you get to I call the "40K Tanks" that just slap extra guns on all willy-nilly, like the Challenger X.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #36 on: 12 December 2023, 12:12:12 »
In the case of Clan Hell's Horses, there is the further case of QuadVees.

While still somewhat of an experimental technology, QuadVees borrow both from BattleMech and vehicle design lineages - and, in terms of driving them, from both MechWarrior and TankWarrior skillsets.

QuadVees have crews of two: a pilot and a gunner. This is more than most MechWarriors would be used to (particularly in a Clan touman), but fewer than in a 32nd century battle tank (such as the crew of the Fratricide, the Carnivore tank which featured in Hour of the Wolf and in the IlClan sourcebook).

So while there is much work to be done in terms of refining QuadVee technology, the implications for the Horses' tank operations might one day be significant enough for other Clans to reconsider adopting it for their own uses, perhaps.
« Last Edit: 12 December 2023, 12:20:06 by Nerroth »

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #37 on: 12 December 2023, 13:32:49 »
I feel like Battletech tanks in general have inferior diagnostics, redundancies, and, uh...I can't think of the right word so I'll say 'internal maintenance' than mechs, and compensate with extra crew. For example, no mechwarrior really has to worry about their Gauss Rifle failing to work, at least not until some jerk manages to lodge a missile between the capacitors or the watermelon supply runs out. Similarly, no mechwarrior has to worry about their torso failing to twist, so long as the waist actually exists.

Tanks can suffer all kinds of jams and misfires that need to be fixed and cleared that a mech's internal automation takes care of, so I figure that modern tank crews need technical crew to monitor, maintain, and repair all of these systems.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #38 on: 12 December 2023, 15:39:49 »
There was a short story about the last battle of the Eisenjäger tank battalion in I think was "Strategic Operations" where one Manteuffel crew was dealing with electronic gremlins during the battle and one crew member trying his best to get it working again. Which makes me wonder, are tanks as shielded against PPC blasts as Mechs?

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #39 on: 12 December 2023, 16:57:55 »
Quote
Tanks can suffer all kinds of jams and misfires that need to be fixed and cleared that a mech's internal automation takes care of, so I figure that modern tank crews need technical crew to monitor, maintain, and repair all of these systems.
If those systems are failing often enough in combat that non-combatant maintenance personnel are required members of the crew (again, things that don't happen with modern tanks), the tank designs are bad.
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #40 on: 12 December 2023, 19:15:10 »
Then all tanks in Battletech are bad, and I do mean all of them. The breakdowns are known, and since they're part of the regular crit chart, it's common to ALL vehicles, not any particular class.

Still makes sense in that context for vehicles to carry crew to mitigate and/or repair these breakdowns when possible.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #41 on: 12 December 2023, 19:30:54 »
Also while it might have been capable of running a tank with reduced crew during the golden age the Succession Wars were tough on all kinds of equipment it is possible that many things that should be automated stopped being automated and required a crewman to handle instead. We are talking mad max level tech during the nadir of the 3rd SW and its not like there was a huge investment in tooling (except for flagship models like the Challenger X) in combat vehicles when the superior Battlemechs became more common after the Helm data core and Clan Invasion Renaissance.

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #42 on: 13 December 2023, 11:45:11 »
Then all tanks in Battletech are bad, and I do mean all of them. The breakdowns are known, and since they're part of the regular crit chart, it's common to ALL vehicles, not any particular class.

Still makes sense in that context for vehicles to carry crew to mitigate and/or repair these breakdowns when possible.
"they're part of the regular crit chart"
That means battle damage, not breakdowns. Carrying noncombatants into combat is bad practice. If you don't have a job to do on the tanks that involves killing things, you are not expendable enough to put on the tank. Stay in the trains until you're called forward.
<-- first 'mech I drove as a Robotech destroid pilot way back when

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #43 on: 13 December 2023, 12:06:11 »
The driver’s job doesn’t involve killing things (unless he runs over infantry, I guess).  He’s still necessary.  Not everyone in the tank has to have their finger on a trigger.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #44 on: 13 December 2023, 12:08:40 »
"they're part of the regular crit chart"
That means battle damage, not breakdowns. Carrying noncombatants into combat is bad practice. If you don't have a job to do on the tanks that involves killing things, you are not expendable enough to put on the tank. Stay in the trains until you're called forward.

And that's the point where I'm done. I'll continue talking with literally anyone else. To you, good day.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #45 on: 13 December 2023, 12:20:36 »
"they're part of the regular crit chart"
That means battle damage, not breakdowns. Carrying noncombatants into combat is bad practice. If you don't have a job to do on the tanks that involves killing things, you are not expendable enough to put on the tank. Stay in the trains until you're called forward.
It is normal in BT for vehicle crews to perform maintenance, such as Alacorn crews doing track maintenance.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #46 on: 13 December 2023, 12:54:43 »
First of all, there's this thing in the military called (varying by service and nation, of course) "user level maintenance."  The crew is expected to learn a lot of the basic mechanical workings of the vehicle, conduct preventative maintenance (i.e., checking fluid levels), and do a lot of the basic maintenance tasks like oil changes.  The first time I ever personally ever changed a vehicle tire in my life was on a HMMWV in 2003, for example.  The only time your vehicle goes back to the shop for the actual mechanics to work on is if there's an issue that the vehicle's user is incapable of fixing, either because of knowledge or equipment needs.  And when the combat elements go out to fight, the workshop folks don't ride with them.  They're too valuable -- they're the ones with specialty knowledge in fixing and recovering the vehicles, after all -- so they stay with the HQ and the logistics train following the actual combat elements.  This leads into my second point. . .

Which is the concept of the "mobility kill."  The term obviously implies being immobilized, but in practice it references a vehicle being disabled despite still technically being able to operate in some fashion on the field.  Lots of armored vehicles, historically, were not completely destroyed and their crews killed a man.  The vehicles would take hits and something would break: the gun breach is jammed or the tank threw a track or the engine caught fire.  Whatever the case, even minor damage could potentially force a vehicle out of action.  In such cases, it was commonplace for the crew to bail out of the vehicle and either fight on foot or beat feet for friendly lines.  Whichever force held the battlefield would then either bring forward their workshops or tow disabled (but not destroyed) vehicles to the workshops, have the issues repaired, and put that vehicle back into the action.  The outstanding example of this in my mind is always North Africa in WW2, where the British used captured Italian tanks and the Germans used some captured British tanks & trucks.  At one point during Operation Crusader, the RAF refused to shoot up German supply columns because they had so many Allied vehicles in use that the pilots weren't convinced they were actually enemies!  Getting back to BattleTech in particular, my point is that many of the critical hit results on combat vehicles constitute disabling hits or mobility kills.  I'm not familiar with the force withdrawal rules so this may be covered by those, but I for one have been in games where a tank gets immobilized but the guns still work so I just let it sit there and menace anything that comes into its LOS.  In real life, that crew would bail and hoof it most of the time and thus the tank would count as destroyed in-game.

For a tank to suffer damage, the crew to bail and attempt to repair that damage in combat while under fire is, I would think, an extremely rare situation.  As in, "last stand if we don't hold this terrain feature the world ends" kind of rare.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #47 on: 13 December 2023, 13:40:02 »
It is normal in BT for vehicle crews to perform maintenance, such as Alacorn crews doing track maintenance.

They can only perform the maintenance when they have Pharaoh beer  :grin:

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #48 on: 13 December 2023, 13:52:49 »
The driver’s job doesn’t involve killing things (unless he runs over infantry, I guess).  He’s still necessary.  Not everyone in the tank has to have their finger on a trigger.
The driver's job involves killing things.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #49 on: 13 December 2023, 14:02:58 »
The driver's job involves killing things.
Not directly. The driver enables the tank to go where it needs to go to do the killing.  But so does the mechanic.  If a mechanic is an REMF who shouldn’t be in a tank because he doesn’t kill people himself, then so is a driver, or even a loader.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #50 on: 13 December 2023, 14:41:45 »
In this dreaded place call real life, Rheinmetall is creating a new fourth position in their new KF51. They switched to an auto loader for the gun and market the fourth position as either reserved for the unit commander or a systems / electronics / drone operator. I can absolutely see at least some BT tanks having similar positions, especially if the tank features advanced electronics or additional comm gear.
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paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #51 on: 14 December 2023, 01:03:47 »
Quote
Not directly. The driver enables the tank to go where it needs to go to do the killing.  But so does the mechanic.  If a mechanic is an REMF who shouldn’t be in a tank because he doesn’t kill people himself, then so is a driver, or even a loader.
The driver is directly involved in killing things. He wouldn't get a command during fire commands if he wasn't.

RE: drone operator. If the tank has a drone system, rather than receiving feeds from another element's reconnaissance drone, yep, that's something that will interfere with any other crewmember's function and need a new guy. We'll see what the Heer of other operators do with the 1CF of space or if their requirements allow it to remain on the version they adopt.
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #52 on: 14 December 2023, 11:48:25 »
The J. Edgar is a two-crew AFV. No doubt on that, by rules, or fluff.

All standard ammo-based weapons in the BTU utilize autoloaders. Even including the archaic Rifles, everything is an autocannon or multi-tube missile launcher. The extra crew is ridiculous, brought about by people who knew nothing about AFV operation. It's just the way it is.

Not quite sure I agree with that.  M1 Abrams is roughly 60 metric tons in size, which in CBT translates to a 4-man crew...which is what the Abrams actually has.  And let's look at what those crewmen do:
  • Driver:  Obviously, he drives the tank.  Now, unless we're going to say that all CBT combat vehicles are self-driven (which, if they were...then why does a 'Mech even need a pilot, right?), then the driver is still needed.
  • Gunner:  Operates the main gun (105mm or 120mm, depending on model), & can also fire the 7.62mm MG that's coaxially mounted with the main gun.  Now, obviously, you still want at least one gunner on the tank, or the driver is going to have to split his time (which TacOps covers the penalties on that).  But he is limited in what he can fire at.  The main gun can elevate, but to traverse you have to turn the turret...so the gunner can only fire towards whatever the main gun is facing.
     That applies to the coax MG as well, because it's installed right next to the main gun:  whatever the main gun is pointed out, that's the only direction the coax can fire towards.
  • Commander:  Kind of a given that, if you're going to have multiple crewmen on a vehicle, especially if you have more than 2 people, someone has to be the guy in charge.  That's the tank commander, & he's supposed to be keeping an eye out on the battlefield & directing the gunner & driver in their duties...but he also has another job:  manning the .50cal HMG that's on top of the turret.  Unlike the main gun, the .50 can be swiveled & elevated to point in pretty much any direction...so the main gun could be firing at a target directly ahead, while the commander is putting rounds downrange behind the tank to clear out some enemy grunts that poked their heads up too soon.  The only reason that the tank crew can do that is because there's a 2nd guy that can aim the separately-aimed weapon.  Which leads to...
  • Loader:  In an Abrams, his primary job is to keep feeding rounds to the main gun so the gunner can keep firing.  In CBT, since all weapon systems are fed by auto-loaders, that puts him out of a job.  Except...he has another job as well:  manning the 7.62mm GPMG that's also pintle-mounted on the top of the turret (just like the .50).  So now you have two guys that can lay down suppressive fire on enemy grunts to either side or behind the tank while the gunner is blasting away with the main gun at the enemy tanks & other heavy targets.

That's where the extra crew comes into play with CBT tanks.  Small vehicles (15 tons & under), with a single crewmen, can only fire at a single target period (no "secondary target" options).  Vehicles up to 30 tons (2 crew) act as normal (additional targets getting the "secondary target" penalty).  Larger vehicles get the benefit of being able to attack multiple targets without the "secondary target" penalty applying. 

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #53 on: 14 December 2023, 12:10:01 »
The driver is directly involved in killing things. He wouldn't get a command during fire commands if he wasn't.

What?
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #54 on: 15 December 2023, 00:47:55 »
Not quite sure I agree with that.  M1 Abrams is roughly 60 metric tons in size, which in CBT translates to a 4-man crew...which is what the Abrams actually has.  And let's look at what those crewmen do:
  • Driver:  Obviously, he drives the tank.  Now, unless we're going to say that all CBT combat vehicles are self-driven (which, if they were...then why does a 'Mech even need a pilot, right?), then the driver is still needed.
  • Gunner:  Operates the main gun (105mm or 120mm, depending on model), & can also fire the 7.62mm MG that's coaxially mounted with the main gun.  Now, obviously, you still want at least one gunner on the tank, or the driver is going to have to split his time (which TacOps covers the penalties on that).  But he is limited in what he can fire at.  The main gun can elevate, but to traverse you have to turn the turret...so the gunner can only fire towards whatever the main gun is facing.
     That applies to the coax MG as well, because it's installed right next to the main gun:  whatever the main gun is pointed out, that's the only direction the coax can fire towards.
  • Commander:  Kind of a given that, if you're going to have multiple crewmen on a vehicle, especially if you have more than 2 people, someone has to be the guy in charge.  That's the tank commander, & he's supposed to be keeping an eye out on the battlefield & directing the gunner & driver in their duties...but he also has another job:  manning the .50cal HMG that's on top of the turret.  Unlike the main gun, the .50 can be swiveled & elevated to point in pretty much any direction...so the main gun could be firing at a target directly ahead, while the commander is putting rounds downrange behind the tank to clear out some enemy grunts that poked their heads up too soon.  The only reason that the tank crew can do that is because there's a 2nd guy that can aim the separately-aimed weapon.  Which leads to...
  • Loader:  In an Abrams, his primary job is to keep feeding rounds to the main gun so the gunner can keep firing.  In CBT, since all weapon systems are fed by auto-loaders, that puts him out of a job.  Except...he has another job as well:  manning the 7.62mm GPMG that's also pintle-mounted on the top of the turret (just like the .50).  So now you have two guys that can lay down suppressive fire on enemy grunts to either side or behind the tank while the gunner is blasting away with the main gun at the enemy tanks & other heavy targets.

That's where the extra crew comes into play with CBT tanks.  Small vehicles (15 tons & under), with a single crewmen, can only fire at a single target period (no "secondary target" options).  Vehicles up to 30 tons (2 crew) act as normal (additional targets getting the "secondary target" penalty).  Larger vehicles get the benefit of being able to attack multiple targets without the "secondary target" penalty applying.
A few notes. Current configurations of the Abrams are pushing 80 tons and the 75 ton threshold for a 5th crewmember was met over a decade ago. And the tank plenty of capacity for more. I guess 240 ton engine is a 320 ton engine ;)

It's not really that big a deal, but the loader's MG can only engage targets from about the 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock in relation to the turret's orientation due to how it's mounted.
Doctrinally, the loader's MG is primarily considered a self defense weapon for use when the tank is stationary in a battle position and enemies become visible at close range when attempting to assault or bypass the tank. The commander's MG is designated as an anit-aircraft MG, with one of its roles to throw enough DANGER!TM at an enemy pilot that they think better of risking actually being hit and pull away before they can land hits on the tank. It's also a primary weapon for interim effects on soft targets where expending a main gun round might be wasteful.
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Hellraiser

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #55 on: 15 December 2023, 01:35:13 »
Some things.

1.  The "Fluff" from various TROs doesn't always match the 1/15 Tons rounded up that TM has.

2.  The full crew of the Demolisher was mentioned in its first appearance in TRO3026 or MW1E IIRC. 
Something like 2 Drivers, 2 Gunners, Commander, Loader, & Radio Operator, IIRC.

3.  Loaders would purely be monitoring systems & not actual loading like on the M1-Abrams.
The BT Autocannons fire off "bursts" of shells the same size as the Abrams single shell, no human could load that fast or lift the weight of entire "clips" of 105mm shells every 10 seconds.  Autoloaders all the way.

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paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #56 on: 15 December 2023, 03:34:17 »
Possibly bursts. AC/X is a designation of capability, not design. An AC/20 could be a burst of smaller rounds or one big one.

(Of course, MW is the only source for EDIT: art of the four-track configuration. Neither TRO:3026 nor any other source use it.)
« Last Edit: 15 December 2023, 03:41:12 by paladin2019 »
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Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #57 on: 15 December 2023, 03:40:37 »
Possibly bursts. AC/X is a designation of capability, not design. An AC/20 could be a burst of smaller rounds or one big one.

(Of course, MW is the only source for the four-track configuration. Neither TRO:3026 nor any other source use it.)

There was also a mention in I think the Reunification war book that mentions that the AC20 on a Hetzer is not the same as the AC20 in a Demolisher. I would suspect the same goes for every AC caliber.
Also in terms of loading systems just take a look at the Bulwark: it's loading system goes right outside the tank. I highly doubt a "loader" actually takes the round which is probably way too heavy for one person and inserts it into the gun

paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #58 on: 15 December 2023, 03:42:41 »
Note of clarification. MW1e is the source of the four-track art. No other source uses it, even TRO:3026 which says it is a four track design.
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Alan Grant

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #59 on: 15 December 2023, 05:53:00 »
Some things.

1.  The "Fluff" from various TROs doesn't always match the 1/15 Tons rounded up that TM has.

2.  The full crew of the Demolisher was mentioned in its first appearance in TRO3026 or MW1E IIRC. 
Something like 2 Drivers, 2 Gunners, Commander, Loader, & Radio Operator, IIRC.

3.  Loaders would purely be monitoring systems & not actual loading like on the M1-Abrams.
The BT Autocannons fire off "bursts" of shells the same size as the Abrams single shell, no human could load that fast or lift the weight of entire "clips" of 105mm shells every 10 seconds.  Autoloaders all the way.

Good catch on the Demolisher. I broke out TRO 3026 and looked it up.

To elaborate on what that book says. The Demolisher fluff in that book adds a few interesting tidbits on crew.

1. The crew complement actually varies based on when the vehicle was produced and what upgrades it has.

2. Popular upgrades includes adding shell-loaders and a combination commander/gunner position.

3. The number of crew varies. Sometimes there is a commander, 2 drivers, 2 gunners, 2 loaders and 1 communications/engineer crewman. Other times the commander acts as the driver. There are versions that have 1 gunner and no loaders.

My reaction to the above:

I should note that TRO 3039, which is the newer book featuring the Demolisher, drops all this. But I do think it's interesting and perhaps sheds some light on how the early Battletech writers thought about this stuff. My biggest takeaway is that in the early days of BT a lot of this stuff was seen as pure fluff with a tremendous amount of variation. Even stuff like manual shell loading in some very old vehicles was on the table.

Though I agree with the idea that it's probably not a human "lifting" shells/magazines with their arms. Too heavy for that. More likely there would be a loading system that the loader operates like an equipment operator. Videos of how battleship gun shells (like the Iowa's) were loaded can help anyone conceptualize the basics of what that might look like.

The loader issue/question aside... the crew makes sense to me. I'm even ok with the 2 drivers because as I explained in an earlier post in this thread I can absolutely see navigator/pathfinder as a role alongside a driver. So one driver could be physically driving the vehicle, the other could help navigate/pathfind. Their stations could be identical, and they could switch roles as needed. I do find it very interesting that a dedicated communication/engineer position is referenced. I think that's the first time now that we've seen something like that referenced in a canon source, even if it's an old one.
« Last Edit: 15 December 2023, 06:28:00 by Alan Grant »

The Wobbly Guy

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #60 on: 15 December 2023, 06:59:07 »
Let me muddy the waters further... omnivehicles!

Let's say we put just one or two big guns for one config... then what do the rest of the crew do?

OTOH, if it's a config with lots of small guns pointed in all directions, then a crew of even five might not cut it.

Alan Grant

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #61 on: 15 December 2023, 07:43:21 »
Let me muddy the waters further... omnivehicles!

Let's say we put just one or two big guns for one config... then what do the rest of the crew do?

OTOH, if it's a config with lots of small guns pointed in all directions, then a crew of even five might not cut it.

I actually don't think it muddies it much at all... as long as you are willing to accept the idea that the vehicle crew count may be variable based on other factors. You just have to be willing to accept that a different variant might require less or more crew members. That your crew could actually vary based on that. Slapping on one set of modules to create Variant B of some vehicle might mean you need one less gunner. Or one more.

I know that's not what the rules say but I'm starting to think the 1 per 15 tons rule is more like evaluating a car based on how many seats it has. I might be shopping for a car and see that it has 4 seats. That doesn't it's always carrying 4 people when it's on the road every single time. It just means it has capacity for 4 people.

I'm starting to perceive the 1 per 15 rule that way. It's still a good guideline but an extreme level of extraction based solely on vehicle weight and no other factors. But it might be perceived as a rule for determining maximum crew capacity and a general idea of a crew count, rather than an exact number.

If the BT writers ever got to the level of truly detailing each make/model vehicle based on other factors. Electronics, number and type and placement of weapons. At a ruleset like that, I think same-weight vehicles (and variants, including Omni variants) would have very different number of crew members and cew composition. The current rule is a... frankly oversimplified... abstraction.
« Last Edit: 15 December 2023, 07:59:18 by Alan Grant »

theagent

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #62 on: 15 December 2023, 11:01:38 »
A few notes. Current configurations of the Abrams are pushing 80 tons and the 75 ton threshold for a 5th crewmember was met over a decade ago. And the tank plenty of capacity for more. I guess 240 ton engine is a 320 ton engine ;)

It's not really that big a deal, but the loader's MG can only engage targets from about the 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock in relation to the turret's orientation due to how it's mounted.
Doctrinally, the loader's MG is primarily considered a self defense weapon for use when the tank is stationary in a battle position and enemies become visible at close range when attempting to assault or bypass the tank. The commander's MG is designated as an anit-aircraft MG, with one of its roles to throw enough DANGER!TM at an enemy pilot that they think better of risking actually being hit and pull away before they can land hits on the tank. It's also a primary weapon for interim effects on soft targets where expending a main gun round might be wasteful.

Didn't say it was perfect, but I would imagine that there were some penalties.  You bump a near-60 metric ton tank up to 75 metric tons without increasing the HP/torque output of its engine, it's going to see the speed drop...which, for example, would be seen in CBT by having a 60-ton tank with a Vlar 300 (5/8) upgraded to a 75-ton tank & same engine seeing a speed decrease (4/6). 

Wasn't 100% sure on the limitations of the top-mounted MGs...but in either case, even their limitations still allow them to fire at targets that aren't directly in front of whatever direction the main gun is facing, which means that they can still hit 3 separate targets (or groups of targets) simultaneously...& still falling into the rules.

Either way, just trying to point out that there might have been more behind the rulings than just a "well, this is the crew sizes that we have now, so that's what we'll go with".

Hellraiser

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #63 on: 15 December 2023, 12:31:53 »
or one big one.
Let me know if you can find a unit that uses single round fire, I've never heard of one.
Auto-Cannon kind of implies "Automatic" in the name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocannon
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #64 on: 15 December 2023, 17:57:01 »
Let me know if you can find a unit that uses single round fire, I've never heard of one.

Off the top of my head, an LB-X autocannon is explicitly described as firing a single big round in the novel Embers of War.

Let's not go down the "How do Battletech autocannon REALLY work?" road, though, because that road leads inevitably to madness.
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RifleMech

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #65 on: 15 December 2023, 19:39:22 »
The 4 tread Demolisher from MW1 is the MkI version and has a crew of 6. The 2 tread Demolisher in TRO:3026 is the MkII version and has a crew of 7 but the fluff does say the crew number varies, often with fewer crew. I think that goes with the Variant Section where it talks about popular updates being automatic shell loaders and a combined commander/gunner position.



The Wobbly Guy

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #66 on: 15 December 2023, 21:42:40 »
I tend towards Alan's take. We have Fraticide, and that example of a clanner who won his bloodname in an Athena tank.

So the crew figures are max limits, but can get by wth less.

RifleMech

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #67 on: 15 December 2023, 23:20:12 »
I'd say the crew numbers were the minimum as different equipment, like communications equipment, increase the crew size.

Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #68 on: 24 December 2023, 12:01:04 »
Wanted to dust this off as I found some notes in the 3060 TRO for the clan tanks. For example for the Zorya tank it states that this tank has 3 men crews: a driver, a gunner and a commander. It also states that the commander handles ECM warfare while giving the gunner targets which will then dispaly on the gunners hud as priority targets as the gunner has his own 360 degreee vision HUD. And i flipped through all Clan tanks in that book and most Clan tanks in that book seem to have a 3 men creew (well the exception were the Shamash with a 1 man crew and the Odin with two men crews) Most interesting: the one Omni tank (the Epona) requires a much longer training for the tank crews as the Omni flexibility requires each crew man to be more flexible then a standard tank where each crew task is strictly defined.
« Last Edit: 05 February 2024, 04:41:34 by Metallgewitter »

CarcosanDawn

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #69 on: 29 January 2024, 16:20:13 »
I am stuck trying to figure out why the Soarece has a 12 man crew..


A driver, vehicle commander, gunner (maybe two for the CROW AC/2)...

And then a bunch of engineers for reasons? Maybe it's just that big....
"Driver, ahead full!"
"Yes, commander! - engine room, pour on the hydrogen, need more from the boilers"
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Maingunnery

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #70 on: 29 January 2024, 16:28:23 »
I am stuck trying to figure out why the Soarece has a 12 man crew..


A driver, vehicle commander, gunner (maybe two for the CROW AC/2)...

And then a bunch of engineers for reasons? Maybe it's just that big....
"Driver, ahead full!"
"Yes, commander! - engine room, pour on the hydrogen, need more from the boilers"
*Cut to eleven people throwing perfectly good hydrogen fuel cells into a steam engine boiler*
Well it is a 175 ton tank with Difficult to Maintain & Non-Standard Parts quirks, so all those extra crew are likely just the technicians it needs for normal operations.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #71 on: 29 January 2024, 16:31:23 »
Onboard mechanics for when it breaks down.
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CarcosanDawn

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #72 on: 29 January 2024, 17:12:44 »
Amazing that they can get the legs and feet of a mech to survive centuries but still haven't figured out mechanical transmissions and wheels...

But there is a funny image now too of them having mechanics on board just snoozing in bunks or whatever until it breaks. Amazing!

I wonder if it has living spaces for them so when it is on a dropship it can take its own technical team internaly, like a Russian Doll. With 9 seats free, each Soarece can have one team for itself and a second shift for that astech team too...

Metallgewitter

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #73 on: 30 January 2024, 06:12:06 »
Amazing that they can get the legs and feet of a mech to survive centuries but still haven't figured out mechanical transmissions and wheels...

But there is a funny image now too of them having mechanics on board just snoozing in bunks or whatever until it breaks. Amazing!

I wonder if it has living spaces for them so when it is on a dropship it can take its own technical team internaly, like a Russian Doll. With 9 seats free, each Soarece can have one team for itself and a second shift for that astech team too...

Funny enough the Jihad version of the Thumper SPG states it has crew accomodations including a mini kitchen so the crew can relax between missions with soundproofing and sound filters

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #74 on: 04 February 2024, 21:33:48 »
"mini kitchen" sounds like a good sales pitch, which in actuality translates to "compact microwave" or even "place to vent your MRE so that you can use the heater in a confined space."
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #75 on: 05 February 2024, 04:56:12 »
proably a combat microwave, a mini fridge and maybe if it's real luxerious a small tap for water so you can fill a coffee pot
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Minemech

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #76 on: 05 February 2024, 07:18:01 »
 one or two toaster ovens would be a distinct possibility. They are strikingly versatile and relatively cheap.

idea weenie

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #77 on: 10 February 2024, 19:52:34 »
One thing I'd expect tanks to keep handy is a map of all sorts of places where a level 1 unit can duck under, but a 2-level tall unit (Battlemech) can't go.  Nothing like driving your vehicle through a friendly and convenient smoke cloud while being chased by a Clan mech, seeing that you are driving through an underpass, and hearing the 'CRUNCH' behind you as the Clan mech runs into the overpass.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #78 on: 10 February 2024, 20:47:55 »
That would require some *really* detailed intel.  Maybe if you're a militia unit defending your home world or something, but I really doubt attacking units, or defending units that hadn't spent years on-planet, would have that sort of detail in their maps.
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paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #79 on: 10 February 2024, 21:21:33 »
That's what route reconnaissance is for  :wink:

As for the mech, what's the bridge's CF?
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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #80 on: 11 February 2024, 16:21:50 »
That's what route reconnaissance is for  :wink:

As for the mech, what's the bridge's CF?

And does the ramming damage resolve on the punch table  :shocked: It would be a neat trick to pull off and good use of smoke, but limited to the RPG, I guess.
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paladin2019

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Re: How is tank operation different in BT?
« Reply #81 on: 11 February 2024, 20:18:59 »
The bridge has CF, it's a building and those rules apply.
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