3025 - How Common was LosTech?

[CarcosanDawn]

One thing that seems very inconsistent to me is the amount of LosTech of different kinds in the just-before-Helm period.

The scale goes from:
Even default 'Mech technology is irreplaceable, and factories producing standard mechs are incomprehensibly complex and wholly automated
To
Some SL stuff exists in caches that are fairly common, and is not unlikely for a random person to encounter at some point. Acquiring it is merely a matter of wealth, and any specific piece is hard to find (e.g. finding an LB-X 10 specifically is hard. Finding any old LB-X less so).
To
Plop on over to the system with the nearest known cache and buy it at the open-air bazaar - though the black market has what you need if not there

I want to make a realistic 3035ish look at the Andalusia Division (5th Brigade of the Oriente Fusiliers). Their whole shtick is they have a whole library of ancient Star League repair manuals, and they have six battalion's worth including their Heavy Tank Regiment. A thumb rule of mine has been:
Allowed (e.g. find-able):
Enhanced energy weapons (ER weapons, Blazers, PPCs)
Endo-steel chassis
CASE
'Mech designs that have survived but are downgraded
Vehicle designs that have survived but are downgraded

Not allowed:
DHS (they have such a whopping effect on the unit using them I imagine they're the rarest thing someone can let go of)
Gauss weapons
LBX weapons
Unavailable 'Mech designs

But the things I can't decide about are:
Ferro-fiborous armor (armor is the first thing to get destroyed, but at the same time, the easiest to repair presumably)
Special ammunition types
Computer systems/electronics (B-2000 on the Cyclops, BAP, ECM, Artemis, Streak)
Pulse lasers
Unavailable vehicle designs (e.g. Gallant, Pollux)

I want to know availability because I think while they can probably *repair* them with their manuals, obviously producing brand new tech is beyond the Fusiliers. So I want to know how much is reasonably acquirable (since it isn't produced) that they can then repair.

[Sartris]

the whole early setting mad max decay was retconned pretty early. new mechs can, and are built

outside of the hands of comstar, it was very rare and usually obtained from long-forgotten caches or perhaps a meticulously preserved heirloom. IO:AE lists these technologies as "extinct" - which it defines not as "gone" but exceedingly rare -

"An Availability code of X for a given era means the item doesn’t exist, has gone extinct, or is so incredibly rare as to be effectively unique in the universe."

One of the main problems is that no one is manufacturing the equipment and precious few people are talented enough to repair it when it breaks (see IO:AE pg 14-15)

once reproduced from the helm core, these items become increasingly more common in the 3030s and 3040s (also operation rosebud).

could you get an LB-10x from the black market? if you look hard enough you can probably find anything. but can you pay?

the HBS game set a hilariously broken standard for lostech.

[CarcosanDawn]

the whole early setting mad max decay was retconned pretty early. new mechs can, and are built

outside of the hands of comstar, it was very rare and usually obtained from long-forgotten caches or perhaps a meticulously preserved heirloom. IO:AE lists these technologies as "extinct" - which it defines not as "gone" but exceedingly rare -

One of the main problems is that no one is manufacturing the equipment and precious few people are talented enough to repair it when it breaks (see IO:AE pg 14-15)

once reproduced from the helm core, these items become increasingly more common in the 3030s and 3040s (also operation rosebud).

could you get an LB-10x from the black market? if you look hard enough you can probably find anything. but can you pay?

the HBS game set a hilariously broken standard for lostech.

So by War of 3039, do my thumb rules make sense?

As far as depictions go, I agree - HBS Battletech seems easier than the implication. OTOH, you get unexceptional mercenary companies with 1/4th of their mechs being SLDF lostech models, and exceptional ones running around with Spartans and the like. It can't be that uncommon, since having 1 mech in 4 being SLDF-standard won't last long if the parts are "Heirloom-only" level rare. Heck, take a single armor bubble on a mech with Ferro-Fiborous and you have to either Patchwork it to repair it, or replace the armor with Standard... at least if I understand how it works... lol.

[Sartris]

I dunno, it’s your baby. Most of that gear is going to be in very short supply (and the parts to fix them) before the mid 3030s.

There is an increasing amount of helmtech floating around, especially in the 3040s. You see this by the large number of production variants show up between 3047 and 3049 where saturation has hit sustainable mass-manufacturing and deployment levels. All but the most well-equipped regiments are still going to be rolling into battle with mostly introtech into the mid 3050s.

Examples of super units boasting massive piles of crazy tech are the outliers (and the ones you write books about). Most merc outfits are barely scrapping by - if fiction was a historical chronicle rather than a vehicle to tell exciting stories, we’d have an entire library of John Doe’s Merc Outfit that were destroyed or bankrupted in the first year.

Ultimately you have to do what’s fun and makes you happy

[CarcosanDawn]

I dunno, it’s your baby. Most of that gear is going to be in very short supply (and the parts to fix them) before the mid 3030s.

There is an increasing amount of helmtech floating around, especially in the 3040s. You see this by the large number of production variants show up between 3047 and 3049 where saturation has hit sustainable mass-manufacturing and deployment levels. All but the most well-equipped regiments are still going to be rolling into battle with mostly introtech into the mid 3050s.

Examples of super units boasting massive piles of crazy tech are the outliers (and the ones you write books about). Most merc outfits are barely scrapping by - if fiction was a historical chronicle rather than a vehicle to tell exciting stories, we’d have an entire library of John Doe’s Merc Outfit that were destroyed or bankrupted in the first year.

Ultimately you have to do what’s fun and makes you happy

Well, what's fun and makes me happy is fleshing out parts of the background - picking a unit that *hasn't* had a novel about it and making a novel about them, haha.

One that fits the lore as best I can - hence my question. If the novel is "The 5th Fusiliers of Oriente went bankrupt in their first year" that's okay; I just don't think it's true.

The Fifth Fusiliers of Oriente narrative hooks in 3030s:
- one of the most battle-hardened units in the Inner Sphere (certainly the FWL); they are rated Regular not for lack of veterans but for the influx of replacements
- have not one, but two ex-SLDF units on their roster (2 of their regiments - 'Mech and Armor)
- fought the Wolf's Dragoons in battles both lost and won (mostly during the whole Anton Marik thing).
- is supplied by the LCCC but often receives units purchased with the Duke of Oriente's private funds (to the point where the LCCC has shorted them regular supply, much to everyone including the CG's anger).
- Terran origins (despite not being a Royal regiment)

Most of their blurb in the Field Manual focuses on bullet 2 and how cool and Star-League-y they are, but I am not sure how to play that up... Hence this thread, lol. Or do I? It's post 3050, maybe that's the only reason it is even mentioned.

[glitterboy2098]

You could play up the star league aspect without using lostech.

Give them lots of the downgraded sldf mechs. Especially the more iconic stuff. Crabs, highlander, orion, etc.
Have them try to follow sldf practice of lances with predominately one type of mech in them.

And its already official that they use sldf color scheme (probably meaning olive drab) and sldf markings like the cameron star, alongside the FWL logo.

That can give you a lot of star league flavor while keeping the actual amount of lostech in play limited.

[CarcosanDawn]

You could play up the star league aspect without using lostech.

Give them lots of the downgraded sldf mechs. Especially the more iconic stuff. Crabs, highlander, orion, etc.
Have them try to follow sldf practice of lances with predominately one type of mech in them.

And its already official that they use sldf color scheme (probably meaning olive drab) and sldf markings like the cameron star, alongside the FWL logo.

That can give you a lot of star league flavor while keeping the actual amount of lostech in play limited.

Yep, largely done that already - lots of the same kind of mech in the same unit I haven't tried but that's a fantastic idea.

As for everything else, I think the only new mech design I use is the Flea. Mostly it's guillotines, exterminators, crabs, Orion, etc. FWL lacks access to a highlander altogether on the MUL.

Isn't every mech in the Secession Wars one that the SLDF used except like, the very few houses have produced (that are pretty clear)?

[glitterboy2098]

you could justify the non-FWL-MUL units as being either relics from their time as a star league unit, or as part of the hardware the Duke of Oriente obtains for them directly. if he's buying stuff for them as a private individual he could easily be getting stuff across state lines using agents and front companies.

just because something doesn't show up on the mUl for a faction doesn't mean it isn't around, it just means that there are enough of it in service to merit special note.


and yes most of the classic introtech designs are stuff made by or for the star league, but they're not really the 'iconic' star league units. as players when people think of 'star league designs' they tend to think of the stuff from TRO2750. in setting, this is probably true as well. since most those TRo2750 designs ended up being uncommon, rare, or effectively extinct.. while most of the ex-SLDF TRO3025 designs not only stayed in fairly high production but had factories across multiple successor states once the hegemony was parted out, not to mention all the ones that successor states picked up from SLDF defectors and as salvage during the succession wars.

so while a Battlemaster might have been a star league design, most people aren't going to think "star league" when they see it, the way they would a highlander.

 

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And, of course, you also get cases of battlefield salvage/capture and the occasional oddball who joins the unit with their own personal mech, too.

[paladin2019]

In 3025, LosTech is common enough that the only examples are the stuff GMs created for their campaigns. Once TRO:2750 was published, all bets were off.

[Metallgewitter]

Lore wise you have to remember that the industrial base of the IS was wasted during SW1 and 2. Which means available funds for building the "exotic" hardware are lower and I suspect that some bean counters would point out that building Mechs with available parts is cheaper then trying to reproduce advanced technology. As an example the IS never lost the means to maintain XL engines. So in theory you could encounter Mechs with XL engines. But said Mechs are also susceptible to engine hits so there might be the argument that it is less wasteful to build Mechs with normal engines since you can't build much it's better to build sturdier Mechs which can be salvaged later should they be lost. Same goes for most of the other tech as well: most should still be known but the production methods are lost with all the advanced factories been blown up. Remember the majority of high tech by the time of the Amaris coup was concentrated in the old Hegemony. Per Era Report 2750 only a few selected House companies were producing tech that was on par with what the Royal units were using. Plus with how intertwined the Camerons had made the IS markets it can be explained that the break of the SL also destroyed supply lines for production. When you need Widget A to build ER lasers but Widget A is only build in the Lyran Commonwealth and now you don't have access anymore then you might as well revert back to normal lasers

[phoenixalpha]

The quick and easy answer is "No".
The longer answer is still "No.... because if you suddenly popped up with an ER Large Laser, you'd be torn apart by everyone and their aunty looking to blag it. That is if ComStar didnt just off you and disappear your mech and anyone related to knowing about it. House intel services would be asking politely for you to hand it over and then not so politely.

Owning LosTech was a case of if you did have it, you kept your mouth shut about it, locked it in a vault and never ever used it or even thought about it until it was time to quickly cash in and vanish.

If you read any of the earlier books, no one had SL tech and anyone that did, ComStar did a number on them. ComStar destroyed entire cities at the prospect of LosTech falling into someone else's hands (the GDL books). Even House Lords like Takashi Kurita and Hanse Davion piloted stock 3025 mechs. Even up to and including 3049 people like Victor SD piloted stock 3025 mechs

[Alan Grant]

For me the timeline looks something like this for Bolton's Rangers: (Before someone nitpicks this apart, I see these more as generalizations, some of the very specific I provided were more of a general idea of what this could look like, just trying to paint a picture with details, but the details could certainly be revised further)

The Years 2nd SW- 3040 "We have some tech manuals, they speak of things we don't really know how to build. If we got our hands on a LB-X autocannon through battlefield salvage, or lostech find, they might help us understand how to maintain it. But I don't think we'd dare employ it in combat, it's too rare, too precious. The actual battlefield contribution it would make is such a drop in the bucket to what it represents if we are able to preserve it, as we have preserved our tech library. Others might greedily expend their lostech in combat, but not us. This is part of our history, not combat equipment. We'd put it in the unit's museum, or perhaps on a parade ground-only machine, as one of our Star League relics, where it can awe and inspire and continue to contribute to the unit's mystique regarding its SLDF history. Every now and then we pull out a piece of equipment and put on a rare test exercise or test fire. To the "oohs" and "ahhs" of our honored guests. Many of our members are descendants of that history and so are very invested in keeping the unit's history alive."

The Year 3044ish- "Due to the Helm Memory Core the FWLM is starting to rediscover Lostech and put it back into production. Not just as relics, but as items we can actually manufacture and employ in combat and replace when lost. The 5th Brigade' tech library is contributing to that. Our techs and mechwarriors who have spent countless hours pouring over the library are working with the FWL's best engineers and scientists to contribute what we know to this effort. Initially those scientists treated us like bone-heads who would be useless, but we proved them wrong quickly. We feel like this is a race, all the Great Houses are doing this, and this tech library is our way to contribute to winning that technology race."

The Year 3048ish- "The tech library has made several valuable contributions to the FWL's efforts to rediscover Star League technology. Several manufacturing lines have been retooled to manufacture advanced technology variants. What was "lostech" is about to become just "tech" that we use everyday. Bolton's Rangers are proud of our contribution to that. Even if a lot of it will remain classified for now. The techs of Bolton's Rangers have also learned from them as well, putting us ahead of most FWLM regiments on actually having the expertise to employ and repair such technology in the field. We have several prototype machines, like our new -3M Goliaths, that we have actually employed in combat. Within the FWLM that makes us rare, only a few of the best-equipped regiments have such equipment and the qualified techs and mechwarriors to use them. Most regiments are having to wait in line, but Bolton's Rangers are on the cutting edge because of our existing expertise and contributions to this technological renaissance."

If you can't tell by the way I framed that, I see this less like the 5th Brigade having a lot of lostech and employing it in combat, and more that the unit may have contributed to the FWL's technological renaissance in the 3040s. But then ultimately the unit saw benefits from that, employing some of that equipment when it would be extremely rare and otherwise only found in a handful of Grade "A" units. Or maybe even slightly ahead of those units, if the 5th Brigade was tasked to field test some prototypes they helped to develop before they went into mass production.

To me, a really good story about this that would fit well with what we know from canon sources, would be a collection of Bolton's Rangers techs and mechwarriors getting pulled away from the regiment in the 3040s to contribute to some hidden super-secret tech renaissance project. Them arriving to discover some incredible covert effort to solve the mysteries of Level 2 tech. There are problems that the FWL scientists and engineers have been unable to crack. With their detailed knowledge and understanding of the tech manuals, the Ranger techs and mechwarriors are able to help solve some of the toughest mysteries and problems the FWL engineers are struggling with. Interesting story ensues.

Maybe toward the end of that effort some of those techs/mechwarriors return to the regiment, with some prototype equipment that the project wants to see tested in actual combat. (According to FM: FWL the unit was using some prototype -3M Goliaths in 3047, that could be treated as one for-instance of this kind of field testing)

EDIT: According to TRO: 3050 (the Original, which includes the Goliath as an entry) notes that Corean Enterprises was still building a small number of Goliaths (the bigger producer, Brigadier Corporation on Oliver, had been lost by then). But that the Goliath with its 4 legs and good stability, proved to be an excellent test-bed platform for a large weapon, the Zeus Slingshot Gauss Rifle. The success of those tests led to the -3M Goliath entering mass production. I could see personnel from Bolton's Rangers being brought in to be part of the effort to develop the Zeus Slingshot, as well as the variant as a whole and then employing it as a test prototype in the field.

Going back to the beginning here, of the original poster's question about 3025. I think Bolton's Rangers represent a group of people interested in preserving Star League relics back in 3025. Compared to some other combat unit that might not care about preserving history and care more about how that lostech find can be exploited today to have an edge to win a battle. (and in turn, it's highly likely, eventually destroying that Lostech in battle)

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

In 3025, Yorinaga Kurita is driving a Warhammer without any. It's so nonexistent that the entire Draconis Combine can't find a scrap of it to give to their ultra-mega-giga-super-ace.

[Minemech]

 Totalitarian governments and efficient governments are distinct concepts. It is quite likely that the Combine does indeed have massive storehouses of Star League military weapons because they tend to store such items en masse. It would be quite believable for them to not know that they have such items or where they are even stored while manning and maintaining the very warehouses that they are housed in. I would not doubt that other states would help with that...

[Alan Grant]

I can legitimately see Great Houses socking such items away into locked vaults. Boxed and catalogued and studied. It's practically in the same category as treasure or art. Irreplaceable items that you just don't let the enemy shoot at and destroy. It's too precious for that. (yes, there will be exceptions, often famous ones, that's not an absolute rule, it's a generalization, but it holds up. Most of the people chasing Lostech in 3025 just see it as valuable treasure that might make them rich.)

It isn't until the War of '39 that some Level 2 tech starts to reappear on the battlefield in meaningful quantities. But mostly as prototype versions of Level 2 Tech that Historical: War of '39 provides special rules for. On the Combine side it takes the form of some (non-prototype) Level 2 tech gifted to the Combine by ComStar, which the Fed Com found quite shocking to encounter during the war. The book Historical: War of '39 covers this well, explaining the overall situation, the slow but noticable reintroduction of Level 2 tech, some special prototypes and providing tabletop rules for it. It does a great job of marking the War of '39 as a turning point where Level 2 tech is starting to make a reappearance on the battlefield in a meaningful way.

[Metallgewitter]

Didn't Ricol not tell the Coordinator about the SL gear he managed too pull out of the helm depot with the help of the Gray Death Leagion? Heck I think he didn't even tell him about the copy of the SL archive he obtained. I would bet that within the political game the lords often hid some stuff they might be able to use against each other. Or perhaps gain some more favorable concession by "coincidentaly" finding something their leadership needs at the most urgent hour.

On another note I would bet that some planets are still having SL techniques at the ready not just be able or willing to share them. For example El Dorado, ohne of the Suns Golden Five worlds, is described to never really have lost their advanced technologies and thanks to it's rather safe location in the interior was never a target for destructive raids. But maybe said planetary rulers couldn't or didn't want to share it's secrets. Perhpas even both

[glitterboy2098]

Didn't Ricol not tell the Coordinator about the SL gear he managed too pull out of the helm depot with the help of the Gray Death Leagion? Heck I think he didn't even tell him about the copy of the SL archive he obtained. I would bet that within the political game the lords often hid some stuff they might be able to use against each other. Or perhaps gain some more favorable concession by "coincidentaly" finding something their leadership needs at the most urgent hour.

we also don't know exactly what was found. it may well have been older reserve equipment for SLDF, which would have been predominantly introtech level. after all the helm complex was primarily a munitions storage facility, not a garrison base or mech depot. and the annex that the GDL uncovered was an add-on organized by an engineering officer meant primarily to house the library system and hide some of the local SLDF garrison's hardware to prevent it being stolen.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Totalitarian governments and efficient governments are distinct concepts. It is quite likely that the Combine does indeed have massive storehouses of Star League military weapons because they tend to store such items en masse. It would be quite believable for them to not know that they have such items or where they are even stored while manning and maintaining the very warehouses that they are housed in. I would not doubt that other states would help with that...

Hanse Davion and Morgan Kell didn't have any either, so it's not just the Combine who didn't know.

[Alan Grant]

Have we ever seen anything like Lostech availability rules for 3025? Or rules for finding/using Lostech in 3025? Feels like that's what the original poster is looking for.

And now that I've re-read parts of Historical: War of '39, the tech rules for all that, it feels like Lostech or Level 2 tech availability for 3025 rules should be somewhere?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I can legitimately see Great Houses socking such items away into locked vaults. Boxed and catalogued and studied. It's practically in the same category as treasure or art. Irreplaceable items that you just don't let the enemy shoot at and destroy. It's too precious for that. (yes, there will be exceptions, often famous ones, that's not an absolute rule, it's a generalization, but it holds up. Most of the people chasing Lostech in 3025 just see it as valuable treasure that might make them rich.)

It isn't until the War of '39 that some Level 2 tech starts to reappear on the battlefield in meaningful quantities. But mostly as prototype versions of Level 2 Tech that Historical: War of '39 provides special rules for. On the Combine side it takes the form of some (non-prototype) Level 2 tech gifted to the Combine by ComStar, which the Fed Com found quite shocking to encounter during the war. The book Historical: War of '39 covers this well, explaining the overall situation, the slow but noticable reintroduction of Level 2 tech, some special prototypes and providing tabletop rules for it. It does a great job of marking the War of '39 as a turning point where Level 2 tech is starting to make a reappearance on the battlefield in a meaningful way.

Didn't TRO 2750 have a line in one of the Aerospace Fighter entries about how the Free Worlds League had three of them that were fully intact and just sitting on display in a museum?

[BrianDavion]

no, but they never really revisited 3025. FASA was loathe to do anything but move forward (star league house book being the only exception)  and it seems Fanpro and CGL have a strange refusal to visit this particular era. producing era reports for every major era except 3025

[paladin2019]

Morgan Kell

As far as we know....

[Minemech]

no, but they never really revisited 3025. FASA was loathe to do anything but move forward (star league house book being the only exception)  and it seems Fanpro and CGL have a strange refusal to visit this particular era. producing era reports for every major era except 3025

I find the 30th and early 31st century the most amusing periods for roleplay and fanfiction. If you remove or tame the Dragoons, there is a lot of good stuff there.

[Minemech]

Hanse Davion and Morgan Kell didn't have any either, so it's not just the Combine who didn't know.

Successor States are humungous machines full of layers of interests. They are full of magnanimous and petty individuals in all of those levels, with plenty of politicking. Truth is, if I were from the Combine, I would not tell the government if there were Star League weapons in my warehouses. The same would likely be true with any other state. People who are close to that stuff disappear, and the denizens of the Inner Sphere know it.

[BrianDavion]

I find the 30th and early 31st century the most amusing periods for roleplay and fanfiction. If you remove or tame the Dragoons, there is a lot of good stuff there.

there's no need to tame the 'goons, they're a big unit sure but they're not exactly dominating the entire inner sphere, I mean... it's just 5 regiments for god's sake. they're not the only multi regimental merc unit in the IS

[glitterboy2098]

iirc the Arkab Legions did manage to keep some lostech machines running, through very extensive salvage efforts across the IS to find components. but iirc they also only revealed them publicly during the clan invasion, so i'd guess they were not being used on the battlefield much at all during the late succession wars.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

As far as we know....

Or any of the people who took it apart and rebuilt it with Clantech know.

[Metallgewitter]

we also don't know exactly what was found. it may well have been older reserve equipment for SLDF, which would have been predominantly introtech level. after all the helm complex was primarily a munitions storage facility, not a garrison base or mech depot. and the annex that the GDL uncovered was an add-on organized by an engineering officer meant primarily to house the library system and hide some of the local SLDF garrison's hardware to prevent it being stolen.

The novel tells of Mechs being stored there. Several, probably hundreds. Of course none of them were on ready five status. From what Iremember it also states that there were unforms, ammuniton (fair enough fr a ammunition depot) but also tanks. And if this is all pristine then even if these are regular army gear not Royal gear that would make a huge boost for a military filled with centuries old Mechs that often are jury rigged to work

[CarcosanDawn]

Thanks for the ideas folks! I was inspired by lots in this thread and can't quite everyone individually, but I like the stories posited so far.

Availability tables/some understanding of availability is what I was seeking, yes. It seems .... varyingly common.

[Von Jankmon]

I believe the 'no lostech' standard was a truism.  It was mostly valid to the point that you could expect not to encounter it and for purposes of the game you did not have access to it.  But it ALWAYS existed.

At first lostech would be found in palaces and certain preserved monuments like the Solaris arenas. And even in in the early ages lostech searches happened and were occasionally successful.  The very first scenario packs included individual units with lostech added to them.  I remember a Stuka with undescribed but what was likely ferro-fibrous or ferro-aluminium armour taken from a looted Star League bunker.  As the game becomes more open due to RPG's computer games etc the door to lostech must be opened to prevent the subgenre of game from becoming stale.
There were also 80's new content additions to the technology, such as freezers and listen-kill missiles, and don't get me started on Team Banzai.

Now a steady access to lostech is a part of the game.  I do not consider that an imbalance.  So you can buy an ER Large Laser or a gauss rifle, but can you install it, or maintain it, or integrate it into your weapons loadout.  It is not that simple.  Lostech obsolescence goes a lot further than not having gun in hand.  Most mercenaries or prospectors who find lostech saw it as a payday, not an upgrade.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I believe the 'no lostech' standard was a truism.  It was mostly valid to the point that you could expect not to encounter it and for purposes of the game you did not have access to it.  But it ALWAYS existed.

At first lostech would be found in palaces and certain preserved monuments like the Solaris arenas. And even in in the early ages lostech searches happened and were occasionally successful.  The very first scenario packs included individual units with lostech added to them.  I remember a Stuka with undescribed but what was likely ferro-fibrous or ferro-aluminium armour taken from a looted Star League bunker.  As the game becomes more open due to RPG's computer games etc the door to lostech must be opened to prevent the subgenre of game from becoming stale.
There were also 80's new content additions to the technology, such as freezers and listen-kill missiles, and don't get me started on Team Banzai.

Now a steady access to lostech is a part of the game.  I do not consider that an imbalance.  So you can buy an ER Large Laser or a gauss rifle, but can you install it, or maintain it, or integrate it into your weapons loadout.  It is not that simple.  Lostech obsolescence goes a lot further than not having gun in hand.  Most mercenaries or prospectors who find lostech saw it as a payday, not an upgrade.

If people want to play with Gauss rifles, there's plenty of opportunity to do so. There is no reason that we "need" to make it a thing in 3025, and having around takes away from what people who actually play the era like about it.

[glitterboy2098]

to be honest questions like these are why i wish catalyst would make a "Era report: Late Succession Wars". sure we have a ton of FASA era books about the period of the 3rd and 4th succession wars, but the game's advanced enough that we need to address parts of it that FASA never bothered to do. and an era Report would be good for both introducing the period to new players, and for answering questions like "how rare was lostech" and how to incorporate stuff that didn't exist when FASA helmed the game (like industrialmechs, fuel cell vehicles, primitives, various weapons technologies, etc)

[BrianDavion]

Also a lot of that stuff was from the earliest days of the game. I agree, if we could get an era report for 3052 and 3062 then for god's sake why can't we get "era report: 3025"?

[beachhead1985]

This is one of those aspects of the game that makes less sense looking back than it did at the time.

Originally, LosTech meant working or restorable military equipment or civilian infrastructural items that could be put back into use or repaired and made functional. A cache might have anything from tanks with full-armour and functional weapons to LAMs, but it wouldn't have an ER Large Laser, because that didn't exist yet in the rules.

The fluff made allusions to superior star-league-era equipment, but didn't give you a playable example of it. Some passages used the decline of technology to explain away bothersome elements of the game itself; mainly the abominably-short-ranges the game worked with.

Even a pristine factory-to-cache Marauder couldn't act like an SLDF mech, because age had caused the computers to degrade.

In retrospect; once products like TRO:2750 came out, it began to seem weird that no-one ever found a cache with a working Gauss Rifle or ERPPC in it.

But after the earliest scenario packs, you started to see examples of the first operational recovered LosTech, because common-sense was eroding the GrimDark Mad-Max-ness of the original works, resulting in "Freezers". Even then, you wouldn't find "Freezers" in a cache because they were a new-fangled retrotech bootstrapping of DHS technology.

For a long time, there was a disconnect between the fluff (Novels) and the sourcebooks in terms of what was and was not available when and in what quantities. More recent works have done a lot to rationalize this.

But we're still stuck with this perspective that makes a core aspect of the early game seem different based on what angle you come at it from.

BT:PC made things a lot worse. While it's arguable how canon MWO is and when it takes place and how the timeline unfolds...from early on, the storyline of BT:PC is supposed to be largely canon and it pivots on massive quantities of advanced tech being available to the player fairly easily and far earlier than it should be. So, if you come to the tabletop game from these two later games, the way most players engage with the earlier or classic eras seems skewed.

If I was to run a classic-era campaign now, set in the late 3rd-4SW era, I'd have a *very* hard time realistically insisting that it was entirely impossible to come across real LosTech in a LosTech cache. At the point I, as a GM am saying that you, the player, who has beat all the rolls to actually find a LosTech-whatever in the cache, are stuck with a varied-degree of lemon you have to replace some/all of the gear on to make it work, I'm just bending over backwards to keep you from having a treat.

Opinions will vary; some might say: "The advanced systems just do not work" and you have to replace them, others that they do, but they can never be replaced, repaired or replenished. There is no way I could give myself a pass on making a player replace every piece of advanced equipment on their dusty new toy, it's just not fun.

What I would do is make it a maintenance hog, with items that are nearly impossible to repair and that essentially cannot be replaced once they are gone. In some cases that might include ammo too. But if a player or their party actually manage to: A) Find a cache. B) The cache has potentially useful stuff in it that has not rotted out. C) They can recover *something* of the cache. D) Something they recover is lostech and finally: E) it works...Do I really need to be that stuck on them having an Ultra-AC/5? Or even a Gauss Rifle? No.

But why?

Because later canon explicitly allows for all of this. There is the TBH(IIRC) story of a farm using an heirloom lostech ECM suite to spoof some Kuritans, MW: By Blood Betrayed (novel) describing Hopper Morrison re-equipping most of a pirate band with SLDF mechs recovered from a cache and even TRO: 3039 has the fluff for the Hussar giving a functional ER Large Laser to some bandit waster on Astrokazy who acts as an enforcer for one of the local petty nobles.

If it's *my* game, I can just ignore all that, but frankly I feel I lose credibility with myself when I do things like that.

We almost had an alternative with how the early fluff for the Dark Age was written, with that era approaching a "MadMax-Redux" feel with Clantech in the mix. But later works have moved away from the effects of disarmament causing what amounts to a military tech-collapse.

[phoenixalpha]

I look on lostech in the 3025 game as pretty much a no no. Yes you can find it, I'm sure even the specs and stories still exist in the 3025 era. In fact... we have many many examples today for this.

So some 50 years ago humans walked on the moon.... could we do that today? Nope. We lack the infrastructure to build  a rocket to get us there. Its not that we lack the knowledge to do so, we just dont have the kit to build it. Do we have reusable human piloted space shuttles that can take off and be reused? Nope. We have them in museums and we know how to build them.... but we cant and dont.

Even with extreme examples - we dont know exactly what greek fire was and that was thousands of years ago. Roman concrete still is mainly a mystery. It's been around for thousands of years still standing, but can we make it? maybe... but it's too costly compared to modern concrete. So bang for your buck - modern concrete is used.

So why would you spend hundreds of thousands of cbills on an ER Large Laser that is 3+ centuries old and needs repairing every battle and might or might not work when you can have an off the shelf Large Laser that works 100% of the time. Even if we take out the factor that in the 3025 era, ComStar went bananas over the mention of LosTech, its not worth it from a cost and sustainability standpoint.

[Alan Grant]

Historical: War of '39 gives us a lot of prototype versions of Level 2 weapons. Generally just not as good as the full thing but it does give you some Level 2 to play with.

I could see an Era Report: 3025 providing something like that. Imagine a slew of weapons and equipment items with an (LT) next to them. Essentially new weapons, new pieces of equipment, but not as good as their full Level 2 counterparts.

For example among the Prototype weapons we have the Gauss-X. It requires one additional critical slot and on a dice roll of 2 it jams per the ultra autocannon rules.

Perhaps the Gauss Rifle (LT), a LosTech Gauss Rifle that has been restored to working order, has something similar going on. It's essentially a different weapon with its own rules.

But that wouldn't even be the whole story. It could provide some rules and tables for determining if you've found LosTech or not. What you've found, what condition it's in and so on.

It might provide rules to determine if you've been able to restore it to working order, or not. On the high high end of the best results, maybe you do actually restore it to full capability (so a fully functional Gauss Rifle, not the (LT) version). But it would be framed in such a way to make that kind of thing very rare and very difficult to achieve. On the lower end of the spectrum even if you found something, it doesn't work and you weren't able to get it to work (and maybe even broke it further trying). While achieving the (LT) working weapon occupies a middle ground of the good outcome results.

I think something like that could add some fun nuance to the LosTech aspects of the game in that era. It would make it a pain in the butt, but offer players something better than a strict policy of no you can't have LosTech, or yes you can have boat loads of it. I think it would make some players more grateful to even have small amounts of LosTech, because they had to jump through some hoops to get even that much to working order.

Also to me, even if a group of players did get their hands on several LosTech items, if it has a lot of funky quirks like the Gauss-X. To me that actually contributes to the setting a bit. Yes they have some good toys... but they take up more space (and/or) weight, they tend to jam or generate more heat, and have other quirks that just generally mean they aren't as good as factory new Level 2 tech.

That still makes looking into the future eras of BT and imagining a Level 2 tech future a tantalizing prospect. As opposed to feeling like someone has time-traveled a bunch of equipment to the wrong era.

[Metallgewitter]

You have to consider though that in 3025 the technological decline has reached it's lowest point or is even really slow reversing. For example in 3013 House Davion raided Halstead Station and uncovered an old Star League library. They managed to get those texts back to New Avalon and Hanse Davion spend vast amounts of money to start research in these texts, basically the start of the NAIS. This is probably the best known example but other Houses tried the same. Plus warfare had evolved to at least try to spare the important part of civilization (Jumpships and it's manufacturing for example)

But it would have probably took much more time had the Gray Death Legion not managed to extract the Helm Memory Core from the old Helm supply depot. This core contained more knowledge in one piece then the IS had access to (except Comstar of course). and if Era Report 3052 is any indication only after said discovery were the nations even able to produce SL tech (2750 technology to be precise) a few years before the start of Operation Revival

Gamewise you can probably have your unit stumble upon some sort of supply cache that might even contain 'Royal' versions of SL Mechs. Remember those were the SL Mechs that actually held most of the advanced weaponry and equipment the Star League used to produce. Mechs that at that time were also considered "small prodcution runs" by Comstar as they had mostly inherited Regular Army gear instaed of Royal Army gear. Though finding a Star League vintage pristine Marauder or Battlemaster in itself would be a boon

[phoenixalpha]

You have to remember that ComStar (sorry a *rogue* ComStar Precentor, totally not under orders from ROM/First Circuit) killed over 12 million people so that the Helm Core wouldn't fall into the "wrong hands". They aren't going to blink twice about destroying someone who pops up with a Gauss Rifle (which would be pretty obvious in battle).  ComStar faked a full battalion of Death Commandos right down to the serial numbers to attack New Avalon to try and destroy the NAIS/Helm Core.

[Metallgewitter]

Or sending an armada of white painted unmarked ships and fighters to destroy a Black Lion Warship in Taurian space. Another point: when the Outworlds Alliance began producing the brand new Merlin it was considered a fluke. But after the introduction of the Wolfhound, Hatchetman, Raven and Cataphract Comstar considered launching a new Operation Holy Shroud. But this time they didn't follow through with it as they considered the IS too stubborn to slide further into technical decay and that it would still take long until they even might get a real turnaround

[OatsAndHall]

Within the lore, LosTech wasn't common in 3025.  The Helm Memory Core wasn't found until 3028 and, before that,one of Comstar's primary focuses was keeping it out of people's hands. With that being said, it's fun to toss in hidden SLDF weapons caches into 3025 campaigns to keep the game interesting. The last campaign I GMed had run it's course with the 3025 tech so I introduced a large SLDF weapons cache (each player got a Star League mech). Then I had the merc group taking gigs but being hunted by Comstar at the same time. It made things entertaining.

[BrianDavion]

You have to remember that ComStar (sorry a *rogue* ComStar Precentor, totally not under orders from ROM/First Circuit) killed over 12 million people so that the Helm Core wouldn't fall into the "wrong hands". They aren't going to blink twice about destroying someone who pops up with a Gauss Rifle (which would be pretty obvious in battle).  ComStar faked a full battalion of Death Commandos right down to the serial numbers to attack New Avalon to try and destroy the NAIS/Helm Core.

a single gauss rifle isn't that big a deal,. the reason why comstar hit the NAIS the way they did was because a dedicated research insisute that had already acheived considerable results in rediscovering lostech had just aquired the helm core, a complete SL computer core.

[House Davie Merc]

Whenever there is talk about Lostech everybody goes strait to weaponry, double heat sinks,
or other advanced equipment for ON battlemechs or vehicles.

I seldom hear anyone talk about the OTHER technologies that would be unbelievably valuable.

Years ago in a running 3rd Succession War campaign we decided to add some of our own made
up Lostech and rules.
During one campaign a Merc unit got a hold of programmable maintenance and repair equipment
that drastically improved repair times and increased the level of repairs they could perform while
on their dropship.
The effect made them able to take on Battalions with a company of mechs that they could repair
and return to action far faster then the enemy in a completely different surprise location.

Mech scale weapons and tech aren't the only Lostech.
The Star League had a ton of advanced repair, medical, and terraforming tech.
Satellites , drones as well as a bunch of other stuff we tend to forget about.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned anywhere about the Star League having advanced repair equipment that made repairs faster and easier.

Even the Clans don't seem to have anything like that.  The modular design of omnimechs makes repairs faster because you can more easily take damaged equipment off and stick a working replacement in, but that's all I can ever remember seeing about repair differences.

[phoenixalpha]

They had garment machines that cleaned, mended and returned the garment to "new" quality. It was portable, consumer usable and was in relatively wide spread usage. :) The SL book says so.

If that aint spiffy lostech I dont know what is

[Metallgewitter]

I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned anywhere about the Star League having advanced repair equipment that made repairs faster and easier.

Even the Clans don't seem to have anything like that.  The modular design of omnimechs makes repairs faster because you can more easily take damaged equipment off and stick a working replacement in, but that's all I can ever remember seeing about repair differences.

The Star League invented the basis for that with it's modular weapon mounts. Though that system was in it's infancy and I think it was only used on the Mercury and the Dragoon Mechs (well the civil war pretty much disrupted any notion of widespread use). And yes the SL had several tehnologies that were lost to the war. Heck no one has managed to actually replicate the Caspar drone system (according to the lore the Blakists only made a plae imitation) and most of the tech the Department of Megaengineering used is still lost. But also there were manufacturing technologies to speed up production, make more efficient materials and so on. A lot of those were rediscovered with the Helm memory core.

[Alan Grant]

If you have Jihad Hot Spots: Terra. Page 166 or so talks about life on Terra and as part of that, the state of their technology.

I think that offers a good baseline to consider when thinking about non-military Lostech. At least in some categories, things haven't advanced much since the First Star League. But Terra also hadn't suffered much of the Lostech phenomena either. It talks about how ComStar took steps to ensure that while some exports did occur, there were tight controls to keep a lot of the more advanced technology from leaving the Terran system.

Talks about how people live and work. The high level of automation dominating manufacturing and agriculture. Talks about how medical technology gives people a lifespan of around 150 years or so, and is just about the best anywhere except perhaps for Clan "trauma" medicine. Their lives aren't just longer either, they seem to remain more productive for longer. It says many Terrans only start families around midlife (70) after they've had a multiple marriages, a couple careers and have built up a financial portfolio that can support a family. They are only considered to be exiting midlife around age 110.

Talks about how a lot of people work from home 20-30 hours a work, often with robotic assistants (a situation it says, not seen anywhere else since the fall of the Star League). Talks about intelligent software to help manage efficient paperwork. How some people spend a lot of their lives in virtual computer universes while others are great sports lovers or hobbyists.

Talks about how fusion powered civilian cars are common on Terra (if/when you go that route at all, sounds like incredibly fast and efficient public transportation options are prevalent in many parts of Terra). And except for rural areas, manual control of vehicles is forbidden on many major roads. So they have some pretty sophisticated self-driving vehicles. For those wealthy folks (apparently there are a lot of wealthy folks on Terra) who can afford VTOLs or fixed wing aircraft, a lot of those fly themselves as well.

I touched on the highlights, there's more in the book. The point being, I think it offers some good inspiration for non-military Lostech.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Star League invented the basis for that with it's modular weapon mounts. Though that system was in it's infancy and I think it was only used on the Mercury and the Dragoon Mechs (well the civil war pretty much disrupted any notion of widespread use). And yes the SL had several tehnologies that were lost to the war. Heck no one has managed to actually replicate the Caspar drone system (according to the lore the Blakists only made a plae imitation) and most of the tech the Department of Megaengineering used is still lost. But also there were manufacturing technologies to speed up production, make more efficient materials and so on. A lot of those were rediscovered with the Helm memory core.

Modular weapon mounts, yes, but I can't think of anywhere that describes an automated repair gantry that stuffs myomer bundles into the mech or replaces armor on its own or otherwise does a lot of the work for the tech.  There's a few things in some of the computer games, but it's not really clear if that's actually lostech or just the top of the line equipment you can buy if you actually have the C-Bills to invest back into your mercenary company instead of living hand-to-mouth all the time.

[House Davie Merc]

I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned anywhere about the Star League having advanced repair equipment that made repairs faster and easier.

Battletech Technical  Readout 3025 : Battlemech Repair Facility.  The First TRO.

That's the first place I remember the equipment being mentioned but it's in several other
places as well. Some burried in the books.
To my knowledge official rules about the specific tools and computers involved weren't published.
Unofficial rules were published by people working for the company in various Fanzines over the years.
Most of this stuff is now considered apocryphal and not (or no longer) canon.
Somewhere in at least one of those were missions to raid damaged Battlemech Repair Facilities for
the purpose of recovering those advanced tools and equipment.
This is OLD info that's pretty hard to find.
The lack of rules on non-combat advanced tech is why we came up with some of our own .

Knowing when to go by the book and when to create something from old legends that fit a game is RPG 101.

[idea weenie]

Whenever there is talk about Lostech everybody goes strait to weaponry, double heat sinks,
or other advanced equipment for ON battlemechs or vehicles.

I seldom hear anyone talk about the OTHER technologies that would be unbelievably valuable.

Years ago in a running 3rd Succession War campaign we decided to add some of our own made
up Lostech and rules.
During one campaign a Merc unit got a hold of programmable maintenance and repair equipment
that drastically improved repair times and increased the level of repairs they could perform while
on their dropship.
The effect made them able to take on Battalions with a company of mechs that they could repair
and return to action far faster then the enemy in a completely different surprise location.

Mech scale weapons and tech aren't the only Lostech.
The Star League had a ton of advanced repair, medical, and terraforming tech.
Satellites , drones as well as a bunch of other stuff we tend to forget about.

So something like an ARTS bay for Mechs?  It repairs at the same rate as a human technician, but it can work 24/7 while the technician can only work for 8 hours/day.

[House Davie Merc]

So something like an ARTS bay for Mechs?  It repairs at the same rate as a human technician, but it can work 24/7 while the technician can only work for 8 hours/day.

Similar yes. It would also have other tremendous advantages over a human technician.

It doesn't have to have enough oxygen to breath, isn't as temperature sensitive, has
a much higher lifting capacity, doesn't die from comparatively low levels of radioactivity,ETC.
Automated units could sometimes work on multiple jobs at the same time as well.

I could swear that I remember reading something about semi-automated surgical procedures as well.

[RifleMech]

I believe there's rules for mothballed equipment. I know there's rules for salvage. Between the two, found items could be in a variety of conditions. Brand new to in need of repair. It's finding those things that's hard. Most have already been found, used and destroyed by 3025. It can still happen. There's a couple old scenario books where that happens but it isn't an everyday occurrence.

I am also starting to think that Comstar won't go after everyone who might Lostech. Sometimes rumors are rumors but it depends on the weapon. Between extended range, pilot skills, and a variety of reasons why a mech might run hot it'd be hard to track down every rumored ER Large Laser or ER PPC or autocannon. Gauss Rifles though would stand out like a beacon, as would some ammo types
 but they'd get used up quickly.

Depending on the weapon, I'm if people would use them. Sure they're tempting but unless there's ammo, a repair manual, and spare parts, and maybe DHS, lostech items are of limited use. They're be better off trying to sell it. And that's where they'd get Comstar's attention.

To let researcher's know they're likely to send a message over the HPG. Comstar could easily intercept those messages, pretend to be the NAIS or whomever, buy the items and the location they were found, and then make sure they have a missjump on their way to their next contract.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I believe that between the Helm Core and other examples that have shown up over the years, and just the fact that lostech hunting has been a big part of Battletech since the beginning it's quite obvious that Comstar has never had the ability to stamp out everyone who stumbles across a bit of Star League gear. It's only when someone finds something big, like a Core or a Brian Cache that's mostly intact that they got active.  And even then they didn't always succeed.

[RifleMech]

Sounds right. :)

[glitterboy2098]

honestly part of the reason i figure you see so little actual lostech use in the era (from an in setting perspective), is the fact that the stuff is in fact valuable.. if you are working for a military or corporation, anything you find is going be claimed by higher ups and sent off to be studied. just hope your bosses give you a bonus for finding it.
if you are a private entity like a merc unit, or just a surveyor/treasure hunter, any sort of lostech is going to be viewed as a payday waiting. you'll get more out of it by selling it (to a successor state's government or a corporation) than by using it yourself. if you are a merc, and you find a crate with a few medium pulse lasers in it, that's like finding a couple month's pay.
so odds are the successor state R&D departments have a fair sized stockpile of star league weaponry.. it's just being examined and dissected and so on in an effort to figure out how they were made.

and frankly, i wouldn't be surprised if comstar didn't covertly operate a number of front companies posing as the brokers which mercs and other private individuals would use to sell off such finds. which would result in a lot of the finds ending up in comstar's logistical network, and thus not in an R&D program somewhere.

[House Davie Merc]

and frankly, i wouldn't be surprised if comstar didn't covertly operate a number of front companies posing as the brokers which mercs and other private individuals would use to sell off such finds. which would result in a lot of the finds ending up in comstar's logistical network, and thus not in an R&D program somewhere.

I have always imagined that Comstar had agents that showed up at any auctions that advertise having Lostech as their main draw.

Also those underground, behind the scenes, crime syndicate type auctions would have had Comstar operatives either involved
in the bidding or watching who bought the items to "make sure they had a safe trip home".

[RifleMech]

With Lostech often being on the frontlines, it's going to get destroyed first. Add in nukes, ortillery, and targeting factories and those that survived would quickly run out of parts to repair and replace them, as well as techs to do the job. Then add in a couple hundred years of lostech prospecting, I can see there not being a lot of lostech left to find.

Comstar having their own agents at auctions and false front research centers to buy up lostech finds makes a lot of sense. 

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Realistically, lostech caches should have been tapped out long ago but since it's so iconic to the setting, it still happens that somebody accidentally stumbles onto some from time to time.

[Metallgewitter]

Realistically, lostech caches should have been tapped out long ago but since it's so iconic to the setting, it still happens that somebody accidentally stumbles onto some from time to time.

Considering nobody has found a copy of the full Prometheus database yet it is not far off for SL caches to be undiscovered. Just think of all those planets that "died" when the Sucession Wars kicked of and the terraforming technology failed or planets were nuked out of existence

[BrianDavion]

Considering nobody has found a copy of the full Prometheus database yet it is not far off for SL caches to be undiscovered. Just think of all those planets that "died" when the Sucession Wars kicked of and the terraforming technology failed or planets were nuked out of existence

I haven't found a tiger in my basement, that doesn't mean if people keep going to my basement they won't eventually find one, it might just mean there's no tiger in my basement. Likewise it's possiable there simply AREN'T any fully intact Promethus Databases left

[Metallgewitter]

I haven't found a tiger in my basement, that doesn't mean if people keep going to my basement they won't eventually find one, it might just mean there's no tiger in my basement. Likewise it's possiable there simply AREN'T any fully intact Promethus Databases left

Most likely. Would make a cool story background for it's own Battletech series though: the quest for the holy Grail uhm Prometheus. Also: what technologies would still be considered "undiscovered" that th database could hold? The Caspar tech? Or perhaps the more intrusive terraforming technologies?

[Alan Grant]

I hope they never find one and if they did, I would hope it would not be distributed widely like the Helm memory core was.

Why?

The universe is more fun that way. Some "all-knowing, all the secrets revealed" database of the First Star League would eradicate a lot of mystery. It would close doors to open/future creativity.

If someone did find some all-complete data core and reveal all of its secrets. I'd give it a few years before the canon writers felt the need to go... "Oh wait...ummm turns out that database wasn't as complete as everyone thought, because we have a cool new story idea and it's based on a mystery thing dating back to the Star League. For this story to make sense it needs to pop up as a completely unknown new thing.. from the past!"

Making that era an open book removes a lot of story potential.

[glitterboy2098]

honestly, i'd make the absence of a complete database a plot hook itself.. have a group dedicated to trying to rebuild the database, by collecting the fragments that have been found and cross referencing them (and the various ID codes, file names, indexes, etc) in an attempt to reconstruct it. maybe even learn something of what parts are missing, based on cross-references and fragments.

to which end their founding agencies and individuals might be willing to recruit people to go search for star league relics, or conduct raids into the archives of various IS state entities to copy materials they can't get normally.

[BrianDavion]

honestly, i'd make the absence of a complete database a plot hook itself.. have a group dedicated to trying to rebuild the database, by collecting the fragments that have been found and cross referencing them (and the various ID codes, file names, indexes, etc) in an attempt to reconstruct it. maybe even learn something of what parts are missing, based on cross-references and fragments.

to which end their founding agencies and individuals might be willing to recruit people to go search for star league relics, or conduct raids into the archives of various IS state entities to copy materials they can't get normally.

I mean 40k manages to drive an entire faction (the Ad Mech) through exactly that so it's an idea with legs