When do IS Energy Weapons simply become 'obsolete'?

[Challenger]

If an IS Mech Manufacturer really wants to fit a clan tech energy weaponry to their mech they now can. There is limited domestic production in most houses, Clan Sea Fox will sell weapons for the right price and the Wolf Empire is looking ripe for some good old fashion succession war style raiding/corporate espionage. In short, if your willing to pay the 'price', these weapons are available.

Unlike their ballistic weaponry, and to a lesser extent their missile weapons, Clan Energy Weapons are simply superior to their Inner Sphere counterparts, to the point that the Inner Sphere still doesn't have a proper answer to the Clan Large Pulse Laser or ER PPC and the attempts have significant drawbacks a designer has to work hard to overcome.

In the 3060/70's, the majority of Inner Sphere developers had no other choice, so the designers were forced to work out how to squeeze a 10ton Heavy PPC onto a medium mech, overcome the excessive heat of the X-Pulse series or just accept the limitations on their designs due to outdated weaponry.

But, now a 'first line' manufacturer doesn't need to accept those limitations, they just have to convince their buyers to stump up the cash for an obviously 'superior' weapon. Given the state of the universe, I wonder how long until the Houses will accept nothing less than the best available, and IS weaponry fades into oblivion as 'obsolete' technology.


The question is somewhat inspired by reading the history of the 19th century when even states that had been producing artillery pieces for centuries seemed to be buying Krupp or Armstrong artillery. It was also inspired by my own decreasing interest in designing IS mechs now that most design challenges can be solved by 'fitting a clan tech weapon instead'.

Challenger

[AlphaMirage]

There is a lot of inertia in the designs and its not like people were making large investments in armaments manufacture during the Dark Age. Even the Clans could see use in IS tech lasers for their vehicles as those are limited to SHS only. Also there is not much difference except the slight damage boost in Aerospace applications between the two thus if you want to make a dropship or aerospace fighter they can still be used. I don't think they will ever be obsolete except on Battlemechs but only after the Clans have taken over in the ilClan era, even then they aren't everywhere.

[ThePW]

the Simple Answer(tm) to that question is: They Won't.

There is no detailed explanation or backstory on how they make weapons, how they are sourced, what specific materials are used, etc. Only whom makes parts, whom assembles those parts and whom installs those parts. Clan tech remains classified by its TECH Rating (SO Corrected 2nd Printing, 2011) of E or F so it's not like you are gonna see cERML's in Space Walmart. The only thing that has changed was availability, in terms of tech advancement where stuff that used to be Experimental became more common after 3090 (TRO Prototypes 35132)

But AlphaMirage also makes a point from a In Character prospective: It is getting easier to get Clan tech and make use of it but it still remains difficult to use and, more importantly, Repair.

Out of Charactor, when you being told by your GM, just how much or how long it will take to fix stuff, it remains challenging to upkeep your precious Clan Ubermechs...

Mind you: I'm referring to SO from over a decade ago; the rules have likely evolved in the current version of that book. Correct me, Please!

[Starfury]

They won't become obsolete due to cost and the lower availability of Mech production in the Dark Age. Even the Capellans who had mothballed factories and material for 50 years still produce IS energy weapons. The Free Worlds Leauge has only recently reclaimed some of its main industrial heartland from the Republic of the Sphere and the Wolf Empire. IS energy weapons still hit hard enough, have decent if shorter ranges, and are efficient for a large amount of chassis. Certain advancements like the reengineered laser outstrip Clan Tech in one way or another. 

Another thing that will make IS energy weapons stay in use is the lack of HPG communications. Even though Sea Fox appears to be slowly rebuilding the HPG Net, it takes a lot of time and effort to arrange shipping of components from one planet to another. You can't just go hit Sea Fox up via your phone app and say I want 30 Clan ER PPCs today and expect next day delivery. Logistics is a huge key.

[Sartris]

Until armor becomes universal that IS lasers can’t damage, they’ll stick around. The humble ML continues to show up on new designs when even more advanced IS tech is available

[Challenger]

Armstrong and Krupp were hardly within easy reach of Pacific, yet their weapons were in regular use by forces on both sides of that ocean by the 1890’s. Communication and Logistical issues can be overcome with planning and preparation.

I think we also have to take perspective into account. If you’re a mech manufacturer in 3145, do you want you new mech to have an ‘inferior’ gun on it, or do you fit it with the newest shiny. If you’re buying a mech in 3145, do you want a mech with an ‘inferior’ weapons fit, or do you buy something with the best gun you can afford.

There is a reason the F-16 is one of the world’s most popular jet fighters and the F-20 program died, no-one wanted to buy the ‘lesser’ aircraft.

I’m not suggesting that IS tech will become extinct any time soon, simply that it will disappear from front line units because no self respecting front line unit will want it once better becomes available.


All that said, I agree that the current rules don’t reflect the situation I’m envisaging. But, as ThePW points out, the rules are a decade old and IIRC designed around the 3067 era when the IS had been exposed to these weapons for 17 years.

The IS now has 90+ years of experience of working with these systems. 5 whole clans have moved into the IS, it seems to my mind incredible that this kit would still be viewed as difficult to maintain. Has there been no defections, no-one has stollen a maintenance manual?


As an aside, the IS Medium Laser is I think unique in not having a proper clan equivalent. The Clan ER Medium Laser is really a Large Laser Minus (15 hex range, 7 damage) and out preformed by the IS Medium in the role of light, low heat secondary weapon. If the tech bases are ever merged, the IS Medium Laser is the only weapon I’d hope to see retained.

Challenger

[AlphaMirage]

You could argue that the cERSL is equivalent, it is more limited than the ML but not bad for a close range backup. The cERLL is arguably a PPC+ as well. Clan energy weapons are weird.

[Maingunnery]

You could argue that the cERSL is equivalent, it is more limited than the ML but not bad for a close range backup. The cERLL is arguably a PPC+ as well. Clan energy weapons are weird.

And not to forget the chemical medium laser. 

[AlphaMirage]

I love the chemical medium laser, I think its a great weapon and kinda wish they fluffed it in as what is powering infantry lasers blaster rifle style.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

When the Inner Sphere began mass-producing Clantech ER lasers in the Republic Era, Inner Sphere ER lasers became obsolete.  But they keep producing the IS ER lasers because they're cheaper and easier to maintain than Clantech ones.  Same goes for the other guns, and very few factories are able to produce Clantech pulse lasers or ER PPCs anyway.

[ColBosch]

There is a big difference between "obsolete" and "not worth using anymore."

[Von Jankmon]

The medium and large laser will never become obsolete because they are not. They are cheap and reliable and relatively simple to make and operate.  Those qualities are always desirable, and often preferable.  I can see ilclan era mech producers deliberately choosing them as design options for valid reasons.

[ColBosch]

The medium and large laser will never become obsolete because they are not. They are cheap and reliable and relatively simple to make and operate.  Those qualities are always desirable, and often preferable.  I can see ilclan era mech producers deliberately choosing them as design options for valid reasons.

Exactly. They're obsolete, yes. But they're not useless.

Here's a real-world example: adjustable vs. fixed wrenches. A good adjustable wrench will round off most bolts before its mechanism fails; fixed wrenches are therefore obsolete. But it's still far cheaper to produce fixed wrenches than high-quality adjustables, and for most uses the older tech is just fine. You're unlikely to break even a cheapo fixed wrench unless you're pulling apart engine blocks or the like.

And we shouldn't discount "invalid" reasons, either. People still buy and use revolvers, which have arguably been obsolete for over a century. (AND WE'RE NOT REHASHING THAT ARGUMENT HERE.) Sometimes obsolete technology is used simply because of social or bureaucratic inertia, or for cost (like Von Jankmon mentioned), or simply because people like the tech for wholly emotional reasons. "Obsolete" just means that superior technology exists; it's not a value judgement.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Or to use a military tech example, the T-34 medium tank was obsolete by the 50s at least, and it's still being used by some countries.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Extreme example- the USS Harnett County was built in 1944 during WW2, and is still in service in the Philippine Navy as the Sierra Madre, facing down the PRC.

Way obsolete, but not useless!

[Starfury]

Super extreme example: the Maxim machine gun is still in use and that's from 1884!

[Challenger]

A version of the Lee-Enfield SMLE is still in use with the Indian Police Force (and I think their border force?) and Blücher was sunk by 19th century coastal defences in 1940,  I agree that obsolete does not mean useless and it certainly doesn't mean harmless. For certain uses (training, border security, issuing to 'unreliable' troops) obsolete equipment might even be preferable. Warfighting is rarely one of those cases.

For that reason militaries do not typically buy obsolete equipment. A 7.62 bolt action rifle will absolutely kill a man, but try issuing them to the US Marine Corp and see the response. Try suggesting that the US Army should readopt the Sherman... Issuing your troops inferior kit typically achieves three things,

• Kills your troops morale
• Looks very bad in the papers
• Gets your troops killed

One on one, Clan mechs kill equivalent Inner Sphere mechs, their weaponry is simply superior. If you could close that technological gap, why wouldn't you?

Cost, I don't think should be an issue for House militaries, and even mercenaries to an extent. The majority of a mech's cost is determined by its tonnage and its engine rating, doubling the weapons cost wouldn't likely shift the needle that much.

Maintenance and ease of procurement absolutely should be an issue and that is why I tended to avoid too much mixed tech in the 3050-3067 era. I absolutely agree with the rules that make it harder to maintain a jury rigged mixed tech mech than a factory standard machine, but that is also my point in the post 3145 era. Once you have mixed tech mechs being produced in a factory, using factory produced (i.e. not salvaged) clan components, why should those be harder to maintain? As far as I am aware, Clan tech isn't harder to maintain, its harder for a Inner Sphere techies to maintain because they are not trained on it, don't have the manuals or the spare parts. I don't see that that should hold true in 3145.
 
ColBosch's "invalid" reasons are worth considering as well. 'Tradition', 'familiarity', 'bureaucracy', 'reactionaries', 'budgets' are all historical reasons for militaries marching to war with 'last years' weaponry. I could definitely see a few units/houses insisting on using existing weapons for any of the above reasons. That said, none of those are good reasons, and history looks poorly on militaries that have left their troops in possession of inferior weapons when the shooting starts.

The difference between giving a technician a fixed wrench and a tank crew a T-34 is the fixed wrench is very unlikely to get the technician killed. The T-34 will absolutely get its crew killed if it goes anywhere near the shooting.

Challenger

[Challenger]

Super extreme example: the Maxim machine gun is still in use and that's from 1884!

Ok that is pretty cool and I didn't know that.

Challenger

[Challenger]

The medium and large laser will never become obsolete because they are not. They are cheap and reliable and relatively simple to make and operate.  Those qualities are always desirable, and often preferable.  I can see ilclan era mech producers deliberately choosing them as design options for valid reasons.

I’d have to disagree

The Medium Laser is borderline, as while I think I agree with Alphamirage’s suggestion of the ER Small as a replacement, there are things it still does better.

The standard large laser though is obsolete. The Clan ER Medium does basically the same job for 4tons, 3 heat and 1 crit less (in exchange for 1 less damage). For 1 extra ton, you could upgrade to the infinitely superior Clan Large Pulse Laser. If you can’t afford that ton, you should really be using a 4ton ER Large Laser.

Gains in reliability are to my mind questionable, the clan designs are 100’s of years old now, any real kinks should have been worked out by now. Besides, I’m mounting it on a decidedly not simple, not easy to maintain battlemech. It seems like a false economy to skimp on the weapons. Like fitting a maxim machine gun to an F-16 rather than a vulcan cannon.

Thats not to say the large laser is useless, just that there are now weapons that do its job of being a relatively light, medium range, medium damage weapon….better.

Challenger

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

The IS now has 90+ years of experience of working with these systems. 5 whole clans have moved into the IS, it seems to my mind incredible that this kit would still be viewed as difficult to maintain. Has there been no defections, no-one has stollen a maintenance manual?

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

[ColBosch]

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

That makes a lot of sense, especially with Omni technology and the Homeworlds' economic system.

[BrianDavion]

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

I'm curious, what sharpnal issue do you recall?

[Pat Payne]

Extreme example- the USS Harnett County was built in 1944 during WW2, and is still in service in the Philippine Navy as the Sierra Madre, facing down the PRC.

Way obsolete, but not useless!

And what about the B-52 Stratofortress... 70+ years old and still flying, in fact it may hit 90 before it is finally replaced.

[Starfury]

The B-52 will probably be in service until the sun burns out at this rate.

I can see IS energy weapons being moved to second tier designs as new construction comes online, but I doubt we'll ever see them go out of use completely.  There are several new weapon types the IS invented Clans haven't developed their own versions of, ranging from the aforementioned reengineered lasers, bombast lasers, variable speed pulse lasers, plasma
rifles, and more.  There is also the Periphery states to consider who are running at Jihad or higher tech levels that still make tons of use of older IS energy weapons. A PPC with a capacitor does 15pts of damage out to 18 hexes and only weighs 8 tons with the capacitor. It may be able to only do 15 points every other round, but that matches the Clan ER PPC.

The two weapons I can see falling by the wayside are IS ER Large Lasers and pulse lasers. The advent of VSPs, X-Pulses, RISC stuff and light/Snub PPCs make them far less useful given that most new designs will use some form of weight saving technology to make ip for the larger heat.  IS ER Large Lasers and pulse weapons can't match those weapons and Clan ones as well.

[Challenger]

And what about the B-52 Stratofortress... 70+ years old and still flying, in fact it may hit 90 before it is finally replaced.

Strictly speaking the B-52 is simply old, not obsolete. No-one had managed to build anything that does its job better than it does. (in anyway that actually matters)

Of course, it has also been upgraded to the 9's and reinvented itself to stay relevant. In its original role of delivering strategic free-fall nuclear bombs it is obsolete....mostly because that role is obsolete.

The Chinook is similar. Its hard to make it 'better' in a way that won't takeaway from its core role of 'medium lift helicopter'.

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

Now that is VERY interesting. It would make a good reason to keep older IS tech in production for those units significantly less likely to see regular action.

Challenger

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

I figured it was something like that: Clantech probably has much narrower tolerances to get better peak performance.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Clantech ER lasers clearly outclass IS ER. Clan pulses clearly outclass IS pulses (outside of some of the new stuff like VSPLs, RE Lasers, etc).  But the good old fashioned, humble L1 lasers?  They still have their niches.  Vehicles are one, where the lower heat is absolutely essential.  But even for mechs, there are times where a few standard, 500 year old MLs beat an equal number of cERMLs, again largely because of heat.  You rebuild a Komodo with cERMLs, it won't be able to use half its lasers for heat woes.  plus, you can find the damn things everywhere.  Why rely on a passing Sea Fox who'll make you fight him just to have the right to buy new clantech at extortionate rates when every random junk yard has 2-3 working MLs and parts you can cobble into 6 more, all available at firesale prices?

[Pat Payne]

I figured it was something like that: Clantech probably has much narrower tolerances to get better peak performance.

Although with the Clans' "waste not want not" mentality (born of their living on relatively resource-poor worlds), I would have thought that they would have engineered their weapons to last as long as possible so that they didn't have to throw out perfectly good gear because a framistat blew.

[Retry]

Eh... One could definitely improve something like the Komodo with ERs.  Personally, I'd go the ER Small route instead of ER Mediums, and used the weight saved for further upgrades to the platform (that or just make it lighter)

The potential logistical benefits of using mediums vs clan ER Smalls, though, can be compelling, depending on who's in charge of Acquisition.

Although with the Clans' "waste not want not" mentality (born of their living on relatively resource-poor worlds), I would have thought that they would have engineered their weapons to last as long as possible so that they didn't have to throw out perfectly good gear because a framistat blew.

That might make more sense if the Exodus crew were more Star-League-in-Exile flavored, laying dormant and slowly building up their position for a triumphant return to the Inner Sphere, but the Clans blow themselves up in trials on a regular basis as a form of conflict resolution.  From their perspective, if you spend a bunch of time and resources over-engineering your weapons so they will last two hundred years, when the typical service life will be serving in five trials and then getting blown to bits on the 6th, that overbuilding for a 200-year service life costs resources that could have been spent elsewhere, such as making more weapons for more 'Mechs to throw into trials.

In normal cicumstances it doesn't make much sense to build a combat vehicle for a 200-yr service life, but in Battletech combat technology moves along slowly enough that such a vehicle, while likely dated, won't be so far behind its peers 200 years in the future as to be hopelessly outclassed, as would happen in real life.

[ColBosch]

Although with the Clans' "waste not want not" mentality (born of their living on relatively resource-poor worlds), I would have thought that they would have engineered their weapons to last as long as possible so that they didn't have to throw out perfectly good gear because a framistat blew.

That mentality, like much of the Way of the Clans, is extremely flexible. It's a bit like physical attacks, orbital bombardment, or not pretending to be a freeborn in order to get a second chance at a Trial of Position.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Although with the Clans' "waste not want not" mentality (born of their living on relatively resource-poor worlds), I would have thought that they would have engineered their weapons to last as long as possible so that they didn't have to throw out perfectly good gear because a framistat blew.

The Clans claim to hate waste, but they do so in a penny wise, pound foolish way.

[Retry]

The Clans claim to hate waste, but they do so in a penny wise, pound foolish way.

That too.

[Metallgewitter]

What you might forget is that most Mech manufacturers don't build their own energy weaponry. There are a few huge suppliers (now that I think about it is there ANY energy weapon supplier besides Diverse Optics who sell IS wide?) and the smaller companies probably will keep the baseline weaponry in production as they are cheaper and easier to build. And the Mech manufacturers will graft those weapons onto their Mechs lest they will have to slash production quotas. Maybe we might get a more distinct line between "frontline" and Garrison" Mechs or Mech variants now that Clan tech is more readily available but business wise it is better to keep the old gen of weapons in prodcution as they probably remain a steady source of revenue for low costs. Especially in a time where purchasing "exotic" materials is more difficult thanks to the sparsity of functioning HPG's

[Challenger]

I’m definitely coming round to the idea that we might see a marked difference between ‘clan spec’ machines for the front line and ‘IS spec’ machines for secondary duties.

I suspect the weapons manufacturers will find themselves under increasing pressure to upgrade their offerings in the near future. No-one wants to be known as the company that builds inferior weapons (standby Quikscell) and risk losing sales to companies who were willing to upgrade.

But, if you have the production capacity/capital to do both, you might be able to have your cake and eat it.

Challenger

[AlphaMirage]

I suspect the weapons manufacturers will find themselves under increasing pressure to upgrade their offerings in the near future. No-one wants to be known as the company that builds inferior weapons (standby Quikscell) and risk losing sales to companies who were willing to upgrade.

But, if you have the production capacity/capital to do both, you might be able to have your cake and eat it.

That presumes that there is actual competition out there which I think is probably not as true as we'd like to think. Each Successor State sources almost all of their military goods from internal vendors if they can get it. Except during the Clan Invasion where everyone brought FWLeague, after the Jihad I think that brand is tarnished.

Each of these vendors are basically monopolies owned by the nobility and they don't really manufacture the same things. Although none except maybe LAW are quite as extreme as Ceres with outfitting all their machines with only their parts.

So there is very little incentive and capital, remember COMSTAR basically died post-Jihad and took down the IS economy and financial system with it, to upgrade.

[OatsAndHall]

IMO, the IS versus Clan tech discussion in 3150 either points out the incompetency of IS engineers or a glaring hole in the lore. The CLPL is a good example as the IS would have had access to them in large numbers as early as 3050 (battlefield salvage). A century later, the IS engineers still can't produce a LPL that's as effective as the Clan version.  The large X-pulse comes about in 3057 and, again, almost a century later, they haven't improved upon it. 

IMO, this would the the equivalent of saying "we know the Stg-44 is over 80 years old, but we just can't make a better version of the first assault rifle."

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think some of it is explained as materials and cost. If the Stg-44 was made out of a titanium-gold alloy and fired Diamond-tipped bullets, there’s a decent chance that no modern weapon in common service would eclipse its performance, we’d be using inferior copies that utilized more common metals which allowed it to be built for a reasonable price.

[AlphaMirage]

IMO, the IS versus Clan tech discussion in 3150 either points out the incompetency of IS engineers or a glaring hole in the lore. The CLPL is a good example as the IS would have had access to them in large numbers as early as 3050 (battlefield salvage). A century later, the IS engineers still can't produce a LPL that's as effective as the Clan version.  The large X-pulse comes about in 3057 and, again, almost a century later, they haven't improved upon it. 

IMO, this would the the equivalent of saying "we know the Stg-44 is over 80 years old, but we just can't make a better version of the first assault rifle."

There is a lot of stuff that happened during that time though, Hanse Davion's death, Victor's Self-Exile, eventual return, then exile again, Yvonne's Regency' Katherine's Usurpation, Arthur and Melissa's Assassinations, and Peter's Ascension are just a few of the changes of leadership since the Clan invasion, so there was a lot of disruption in plans.

Add to that the Chaos March, FedCom Civil War, and St Ives Affair and you probably scrambled any hope of FedCom's industrialized clantech, as more materiel needed to be pushed into service and there was no time for research or retooling except the scant Omnimechs that saw service and were found disappointing. The Word of Blake subverted the Free World's League and Trinity Alliance and likely used them to help with Blaketech for their Jihad, which was probably at least partly accomplished by the sacrifice of a lot of clantech to dark machine gods.

Of all the Successor States there are few as hidebound in tradition or as rich in Clantech as the Draconis Combine. It is likely LAW would have attempted to make clantech with Nova Cat assistance except there was the whole Black Dragon Affair (which saw the nuclear detonation of a weapon's lab) and Ghost Bear War as well as the Jihad. Plus a distinct disinterest in experimentation that might draw reprisal if unsuccessful and a through infiltration of their research wing by COMSTAR agents in exile that might have suppressed it.

[Maingunnery]

IMO, the IS versus Clan tech discussion in 3150 either points out the incompetency of IS engineers or a glaring hole in the lore. The CLPL is a good example as the IS would have had access to them in large numbers as early as 3050 (battlefield salvage). A century later, the IS engineers still can't produce a LPL that's as effective as the Clan version.  The large X-pulse comes about in 3057 and, again, almost a century later, they haven't improved upon it. 

That would be like asking an 1900's blacksmith to make a current day MBT.

[OatsAndHall]

That would be like asking an 1900's blacksmith to make a current day MBT.

I'm talking about current 3150 IS engineers. The CLPL and CERLPL haven't evolved much in nearly a century. That gives the "current" IS engineers a lot to work with yet they haven't done anything with them, other than the X-pulse. Those engineers have access to Star League PL tech, X-pulses and Clan tech for 100 years, yet they haven't produced anything that can match the CLPL. Hell, they managed to develop the X-pulse (sort of a step up from the Star League PL) seven years after the clans show up. But, they just said "the hell with it" for the next 93 years.

[Maingunnery]

I'm talking about current 3150 IS engineers. The CLPL and CERLPL haven't evolved much in nearly a century. That gives the "current" IS engineers a lot to work with yet they haven't done anything with them, other than the X-pulse. Those engineers have access to Star League PL tech, X-pulses and Clan tech for 100 years, yet they haven't produced anything that can match the CLPL. Hell, they managed to develop the X-pulse (sort of a step up from the Star League PL) seven years after the clans show up. But, they just said "the hell with it" for the next 93 years.

The Clans invaded within two decades of the houses regaining somewhat production of Star League technology, making even Xpulse a bit of a miracle. These tech levels signify centuries of technological and industrial development.

[garhkal]

I think we also have to take perspective into account. If you’re a mech manufacturer in 3145, do you want you new mech to have an ‘inferior’ gun on it, or do you fit it with the newest shiny. If you’re buying a mech in 3145, do you want a mech with an ‘inferior’ weapons fit, or do you buy something with the best gun you can afford.

There is a reason the F-16 is one of the world’s most popular jet fighters and the F-20 program died, no-one wanted to buy the ‘lesser’ aircraft.

To counter that there's a reason the AK47 is still one of the most used 'assault rifles' in RL, even WITH much newer/higher power tech out there..

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

Is that dontbreakium, related to unobtainium?   

[OatsAndHall]

The Clans invaded within two decades of the houses regaining somewhat production of Star League technology, making even Xpulse a bit of a miracle. These tech levels signify centuries of technological and industrial development.

So... They could produce the X-pulse after having access to Clan tech for seven years and Star League for twenty, but they couldn't do anything else with it in the next full century?

[Maingunnery]

So... They could produce the X-pulse after having access to Clan tech for seven years and Star League for twenty, but they couldn't do anything else with it in the next full century?

X-Pulse is still build with SL grade materials, likely as close as they could get to Clan tech at the time. If one can't reliably produce high enough quality materials and parts then making Clan tech is pretty much a fool's errand. 

[OatsAndHall]

X-Pulse is still build with SL grade materials, likely as close as they could get to Clan tech at the time. If one can't reliably produce high enough quality materials and parts then making Clan tech is pretty much a fool's errand.

As close as they could get in 3057. It doesn't make any sense to me that they couldn't pull something off in 3150, 93 years later.. Even with the issues the Dark Age caused.  They managed to (sort of) improve upon the X-Pulse in 3070 with the VSPL but I still think that some quality backwards engineering would've produced a better ISPL.

[Agathos]

The Clans invaded within two decades of the houses regaining somewhat production of Star League technology, making even Xpulse a bit of a miracle. These tech levels signify centuries of technological and industrial development.

Your reference to "centuries" tripped my alarm, so I looked it up. Clantech pulse lasers entered service in the 2820s! The smoke barely had time to clear after Operation KLONDIKE. And it's not like the Clans had working examples to copy from. I'm really surprised by that pace, and if I were writing it up I would have moved them to the latter half of the Golden Century. But we have to take it as written, and that puts me solidly on Team "Inner Sphere Engineers Have Been Loafing."

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

IIRC, most Clantech was stuff that the Star League had already been in some level of experimentation with and Kerensky took all the notes on the Exodus.

[Maingunnery]

Your reference to "centuries" tripped my alarm, so I looked it up. Clantech pulse lasers entered service in the 2820s! The smoke barely had time to clear after Operation KLONDIKE. And it's not like the Clans had working examples to copy from. I'm really surprised by that pace, and if I were writing it up I would have moved them to the latter half of the Golden Century. But we have to take it as written, and that puts me solidly on Team "Inner Sphere Engineers Have Been Loafing."

The standard LL was introduced in 2306, and the Star League LPL was introduced in 2609, so yes those big steps do take centuries.

[OatsAndHall]

The standard LL was introduced in 2306, and the Star League LPL was introduced in 2609, so yes those big steps do take centuries.

But we're not talking about a big step here. We're talking about improving upon existing pulse laser technology by reverse engineering Clan tech that was widely available over the space of a century. I'll take this a step further;  just improve the heat-diminishing capability of the of X-Pulse without changing the damage potential at any range. That should be an attainable goal over the space of 93 years.

[Maingunnery]

But we're not talking about a big step here. We're talking about improving upon existing pulse laser technology by reverse engineering Clan tech that was widely available over the space of a century.

They did improving upon existing pulse laser technology. Both X-pulse and VSP are excellent examples of the IS pushing Star League grade materials to their limits.

I'll take this a step further;  just improve the heat-diminishing capability of the of X-Pulse without changing the damage potential at any range. That should be an attainable goal over the space of 93 years.

Which would likely require clan-grade materials, and the ability to manufacture that has been spreading to the houses for the last few decades. So eventually one company will start producing clan-grade pulse lasers.

[AlphaMirage]

I actually think the attainable goal would be to put all IS Large Lasers into the 'Improved' category that's between clantech and SL tech. Clantech probably doesn't scale well to arm the Successor State militaries, its fine for their smaller Toumans, but hundreds of regiments and dozens of different contractors that's tricky. Its not a big difference but like the X-Pulse and VSPs demonstrate the IS industry is not quite capable of manufacturing advanced tech at scale and Stone's Disarmament certainly didn't help.

[Arkansas Warrior]

As close as they could get in 3057. It doesn't make any sense to me that they couldn't pull something off in 3150, 93 years later.. Even with the issues the Dark Age caused.  They managed to (sort of) improve upon the X-Pulse in 3070 with the VSPL but I still think that some quality backwards engineering would've produced a better ISPL.

Maybe they were on the verge of a breakthrough at the NAIS in 3062.  Then the FCCW happened and they got sidetracked.  Then the Jihad happened and the lab that had been working on it got trashed. So, starting over circa 3090, with Stone’s Peace breaking out and weapons development no longer a priority in the reign of Benevolent Prince Harrison, funding wasn’t there.  Now, post-Blackout Caleb ramped it up, but it was post-Blackout, hard to pass info around, it slows things.  Also Caleb was more concerned with ramping production up now than fancy new whiz-bang gadgets.  Then everything went to Hell, Kurita took New Avalon, the stuff Davion didn’t evac got stolen by the Dracs, and now the NAIS is free again…and we’re mostly having to start over from scratch.

[Minemech]

 Even with the NAIS not working at its best, the competition ought to have been able to have produced results. Perhaps the Republic was running its own form of Holy Shroud.

[OatsAndHall]

I'm opinionated about this because CLPL are arguably the best weapon in the game. And, as such, the most effective weapon within the lore. The IS pushed out other effective weapons, post 3057, (Heavy Gauss, Improved Heavy Gauss, etc) but pulse laser tech didn't move an inch beyond X-Pulse and VSP. Which would be fine if those weapons weren't so "sub par" when compared to their Clan counterparts.

[Metallgewitter]

Since we are talking about the X-Pulse laser, there is something that seems to be ignored in the whole discussion: the TRO 3055 for the Solaris Mechs mentions that the first X-Pulse Kits were as expensive as Mechs. Now if you are rebuilding your entire army you might spend your money to simply plug the holes in your army instead of wasting money on massproducing weapons that cost as much as Mechs (like a Berserker cost as much as a lance of Atlas K2). Of course the counter argument would be that the more experience you get the cheaper it is but remember at this point there were only 12 years left until the Tukayyid armistice ends (plus the short Operation Guerrero in 3057). Then later the kits were made cheaper so the lasers got their first introduction in the Solaris arenas. Still not enough for full scale production. While yes the market might now be flooded with salvage from the smoke Jaguars now we get the Fedcom civil War and Jihad soon after. So you basically have no break until 3085 and by then more holes in the armies, more production sites leveled, more money diverted to rebuilding efforts. Plus Stone's whole "swords to plowshares" program which sapped funds for weapon developments (of course counter to that could be argued that we got the production level of special armor and the newly developed Reengineered laser family) 

My last word: Operation Klondike hints that without the Jihad the IS might have managed to reach the same tech level as the clans by the late 3080's. so yeah the whole wars certainly threw a wrench in fully unlocking the Clan tech

[Challenger]

Experimental weaponry is always going to be leagues more expensive than production weapons.

Crisis tends to drive innovation not stop it and we certainly saw that between 3050-67

Despite everything, the IS went from reverse engineering Star League kit, to developing their own variants to designing entirely new weapon systems in 17 years. Never mind the all new Warships and Battle Armour that were coming online.

The Jihad was maybe a little too much of a crisis and the ‘swords in plowshares’ thing was inevitably going to produce a bit of an R&D holiday, but we are back in full blown crisis mode and if you are looking to rebuild your military your also going to be looking for that innovation that will give you troops the edge in the next fight.

After all, if your current weapons were good enough you would have won the last battle, certainly your lord’s gallant leadership cannot be to blame 

Seriously though, you might well choose to prioritise available weapons for immediate deployment. But, history also suggests that the IS tends to accelerate R&D during a crisis, not slow it down.

Challenger

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Were as Warships are still "up to date" so to speak, even being centuries old, quiaff ?

Quick side note, not to take away from OP, do Capital Weapons ever get updated ?

[OatsAndHall]

Armstrong and Krupp were hardly within easy reach of Pacific, yet their weapons were in regular use by forces on both sides of that ocean by the 1890’s. Communication and Logistical issues can be overcome with planning and preparation.

I think we also have to take perspective into account. If you’re a mech manufacturer in 3145, do you want you new mech to have an ‘inferior’ gun on it, or do you fit it with the newest shiny. If you’re buying a mech in 3145, do you want a mech with an ‘inferior’ weapons fit, or do you buy something with the best gun you can afford.

There is a reason the F-16 is one of the world’s most popular jet fighters and the F-20 program died, no-one wanted to buy the ‘lesser’ aircraft.

I’m not suggesting that IS tech will become extinct any time soon, simply that it will disappear from front line units because no self respecting front line unit will want it once better becomes available.


All that said, I agree that the current rules don’t reflect the situation I’m envisaging. But, as ThePW points out, the rules are a decade old and IIRC designed around the 3067 era when the IS had been exposed to these weapons for 17 years.

The IS now has 90+ years of experience of working with these systems. 5 whole clans have moved into the IS, it seems to my mind incredible that this kit would still be viewed as difficult to maintain. Has there been no defections, no-one has stollen a maintenance manual?


As an aside, the IS Medium Laser is I think unique in not having a proper clan equivalent. The Clan ER Medium Laser is really a Large Laser Minus (15 hex range, 7 damage) and out preformed by the IS Medium in the role of light, low heat secondary weapon. If the tech bases are ever merged, the IS Medium Laser is the only weapon I’d hope to see retained.

Challenger

IS tech gradually becoming extinct in our 3150 games. Very few of us field straight IS units anymore as there's just too much of an advantage with Clan tech and the newer IS units are getting pricier, BV-wise. Most of the IS units we bring are mixed tech at this point.

[idea weenie]

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

This does fit with the Clans originally being dueling opponents.  If your duel will only last ~20 turns, then there is no need to design a weapon that can sustain fire for 50+ turns.

This weakness is not seen when initially fighting the Inner Sphere, as their fights vs the Inner Sphere Mechs would last ~10 turns at most.

[Metallgewitter]

This does fit with the Clans originally being dueling opponents.  If your duel will only last ~20 turns, then there is no need to design a weapon that can sustain fire for 50+ turns.

This weakness is not seen when initially fighting the Inner Sphere, as their fights vs the Inner Sphere Mechs would last ~10 turns at most.

This fits with the total negligence by most Clans when it comes to logistics. No need to stock ammo, armor or spare parts when you usually only fight brief but intese duels and after that all is over. The Is forces at the beginning were simply overrun as the Clans had the better equipment and also better training (with the sole anomaly Aerospace fighters as the Is was according to the lore usually able to outfly the Clans and their weapon advantage didn't count much for the close combat of dogfights)On the other hand you have to see what the Is did unlock in just a short period of time: ER versions of all lasers, all sizes of Streak SRM's,all calibers of the speciality autocannons, target computers. Then we can add weapons like the MRM, C3 computers, two versions of the Gaus Rifle, Plasma Rifle (by the start of the Jihad), stealth armor, light and heavy ferro fibrous armor, light engines etc. So it isn't that the IS was idling around. They had the basis of SL tech by the timne of revival but the Clan's had expanded that and as shown by my listing was at leasat partially closing the gap. What the Clans had in advantage was the specialization in miniature tech. Making weapons lighter and more compact. This is something that needs a lot of time to perfect. Just an example: a Clan LRM battery weigs only half as much as the Is versions, is more compact and can also be used at close range. There goes a lot of metallurgy into it to make your existing weaponry the same. Thwe Word actually managed to build some Clan weaponry by the end but the Word was one of the few faction to be undisturbed by large warfare (plus holding Terra and it's highly valued scientific labs was probably a boon as well)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I believe that NAIS was able to construct Clantech by the mid 50s, but was doing so entirely by hand at a pace that only let them keep stuff for fixing Prometheus.

[haesslich]

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

Shrapnel Issue #9, "The Clan Upgrade" by Matthew Cross. There's a Sea Fox rep who says that they're not concerned with longevity, so they ride the edge more with regards to tolerances, unlike "Your 300 year old Warhammer", and that Clan recycling policies and tech allow them to waste less during the refurbishing of equipment when it's worn out.

So think the difference between a F1 racer (engine gets stripped and parts replaced between laps when they pull into the pit) versus a utility truck that goes several thousand miles before getting its oil change and tune up.

[Metallgewitter]

Kind of reminds me of what I read about the German economy during WW2. While all praise the technology Germany used apparently the companies made most stuff not to last as they were certain it would be destroyed rather quickly on the battlefield. Though perhaps noit in all cases as for example those Pak 40 were certainly build to last. Would perhaps fit in Clan culture as you have asociety that is always in a level of low level warfare or rather trialing

[Challenger]

The Germans’ weren’t alone. The RN made a very similar decision in the middle of the war that they would build ships with a 2-3 year life expectance as the expectation was they would have been sunk by then. (Not entirely unreasonable looking at the loss rate between 1939-41) It does make a fair bit of sense from a resource conservation perspective, why waste resources on something that is just going to be destroyed anyway.

Of course one of those ships made it to 2017! So someone might have got their sums wrong there. (Admittedly HMS Hermes was finished post war)

I understand that the issues the Germans had with Panther/Tiger II reliability was they guessed wrong with which parts they could cut corners on.

Challenger

[Metallgewitter]

Considering that there are still some Panther's and even at least two Tiger 1's in operational status is something of itself. Though I think we are diverting from the topic 

[MarauderD]

Well, we know that by 3152, Exostar in the FedSuns is making Clan Spec ER Lasers of all 3 sizes, PPCs, and Small Pulse Lasers.  They haven't yet produced the Clan MPL or LPL for a unit yet.

But that doesn't make everything obsolete.  We all know how efficient the old I.S. medium laser is--until things are revamped (maybe never) it will not go out of style. 

I'd say Small Lasers and Large Lasers may be headed to obsolescence.  The PPC is still safe because 10 heat and damage isn't in a bad spot:  50% less heat than the ER PPC is worth taking in certain situations.  YMMV. 

Interesting topic!

[ColBosch]

The PPC is still safe because 10 heat and damage isn't in a bad spot:  50% less heat than the ER PPC is worth taking in certain situations.  YMMV.

In an age of double heat sinks, the standard PPC compares very favorably to autocannons.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The PPC is still safe because 10 heat and damage isn't in a bad spot:  50% less heat than the ER PPC is worth taking in certain situations.  YMMV.

The Clan Large Pulse Laser has the same damage and heat, better range, less tonnage, less crits, no minimum range, and a bonus to accuracy.  The PPC is absolutely not safe.

[Hellraiser]

The Clan Large Pulse Laser has the same damage and heat, better range, less tonnage, less crits, no minimum range, and a bonus to accuracy.  The PPC is absolutely not safe.

If the CLPL costs 4x as much to maintain however.......... 
 Just sayin, ability to produce something finally still doesn't mean there isn't a cost multiplier in there or that
 some units still haven't incorporated clan tech training to their technical staff to the point that its the "standard".


As for the OP Topic:

Bit late to the party, but, I can think of a place where I would use Clan Tech even at the cost/maintenance & it's been where I've been using it since they showed up.

Custom Omni Loadouts.

The Bulldog models are actually a solid option/concept for limited deployment of hard to maintain tech.

As a Mech Company, if you're making something like the Hauptmann-O or even the Clan Crossbow-O you've got a nice durable, fairly easy to maintain platform.
And you can have nice common loadouts using easily available parts.
But, you can also have a "break in case of emergency" configuration for doing things above & beyond the day to day garrison jobs.

Another way to use it is to consolidate it into the units that are able to maintain it.
All support for Clan Tech in terms of Supply Chain but also Advanced Technical training might for example be devoted the the Davion Guards.
Slots for special schools go to them & graduates go to them etc etc.
Any Salvage or new purchases from Clan Sea Fox or even limited production from Exostar is all devoted to the DBG regiments.

Not really a Front Line v/s Second Line sort of split, more like, Spec Ops v/s Regulars, but in this case its the Royal Guard.

Your Hussars/Lancers units can still be top of the line sporting new Devastators & NightStars fresh off the factory lines, while your March Militia is sporting 300 year old Marauders upgraded with Refit Kits, but your Guards can be outfitted w/ Templars & Avatars that have access to a full array of pod loads including SB-Gauss or Clan ERPPCs etc etc.

[CJC070]

We may see most Inner Sphere standard Lasers and PPCs less and less but mix tech units will probably be the norm from now on.  I may be wrong but I think I read somewhere even the Ghost Bear Dominion is fielding mixed tech units (mostly their second lines) due to the size of their touman.

I believe Clan tech will never become standard but will be widely circulated for the right price.

[BrianDavion]

We may see most Inner Sphere standard Lasers and PPCs less and less but mix tech units will probably be the norm from now on.  I may be wrong but I think I read somewhere even the Ghost Bear Dominion is fielding mixed tech units (mostly their second lines) due to the size of their touman.

I believe Clan tech will never become standard but will be widely circulated for the right price.

I mean there's mixed tech and there's "mixed" tech. there's a world of differance between a mixed tech unit that consists of "an inner sphere chassis and equipment, with a clan PPC"  and say... the Alpha Wolf, that is technicly mixed tech because TECHNICLY stealth armor is only IS tech but it has no clan tech equivilant so it's just the tech bases merging

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

All the Clans are fielding mixed-tech machines.  Part of that is because slapping a few Clan weapons on an IS chassis is faster and easier than retooling a factory to full Clanspec, and part is because the Clans don't have any equipment that serve the same function as the Plasma Rifle, Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle, or Radical Heatsink System.

[Arkansas Warrior]

We may see most Inner Sphere standard Lasers and PPCs less and less but mix tech units will probably be the norm from now on.  I may be wrong but I think I read somewhere even the Ghost Bear Dominion is fielding mixed tech units (mostly their second lines) due to the size of their touman.

I believe Clan tech will never become standard but will be widely circulated for the right price.

During Revival, the clans were already fielding ‘C’ refits; introtech machines with the weapons replaced with clan equivalents. The Rifleman C, for instance, had cLPLs and LB5Xs, but apparently left the old MLs in place, and added more single heat sinks with the saved tonnage.

[Hellraiser]

During Revival, the clans were already fielding ‘C’ refits; introtech machines with the weapons replaced with clan equivalents. The Rifleman C, for instance, had cLPLs and LB5Xs, but apparently left the old MLs in place, and added more single heat sinks with the saved tonnage.

None of the original C's had extra SHS, most were under weight.

That said, specifically, I didn't think the RFL had any spare tonnage for SHS?
The LPLs are heavier which balanced out the LBX being lighter.
So unless the MLs were also dropped it should be a net gain/loss.

New versions of the C's have had extra SHS added so that they are no longer underweight & are their legal full tonnage again.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I just doubled checked Sarna, they say it removes all of the Inner Sphere weaponry.  Mea culpa.  It does mention added SHS though.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Just checked Rec Guide 8, the Rifleman C has two Clan Large Pulse Lasers and two Clan LB 5-X autocannons.  It has no medium lasers at all.  It's also only got 12 single heatsinks.

[Hellraiser]

That sounds right.
They didn't get them originally but the RG series has put out "gen-2's" of the original Cs from what I've seen that have extra SHS instead of them being underweight.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I think it would be more accurate to call them revised rather than "gen 2" since they're meant to replace the original sheets completely.  And IIRC they were first printed in Record Sheets: 3050 Upgrade Unabridged and Record Sheets: Project Phoenix Unabridged.