When do IS Energy Weapons simply become 'obsolete'?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Although with the Clans' "waste not want not" mentality (born of their living on relatively resource-poor worlds), I would have thought that they would have engineered their weapons to last as long as possible so that they didn't have to throw out perfectly good gear because a framistat blew.

The Clans claim to hate waste, but they do so in a penny wise, pound foolish way.

[Retry]

The Clans claim to hate waste, but they do so in a penny wise, pound foolish way.

That too.

[Metallgewitter]

What you might forget is that most Mech manufacturers don't build their own energy weaponry. There are a few huge suppliers (now that I think about it is there ANY energy weapon supplier besides Diverse Optics who sell IS wide?) and the smaller companies probably will keep the baseline weaponry in production as they are cheaper and easier to build. And the Mech manufacturers will graft those weapons onto their Mechs lest they will have to slash production quotas. Maybe we might get a more distinct line between "frontline" and Garrison" Mechs or Mech variants now that Clan tech is more readily available but business wise it is better to keep the old gen of weapons in prodcution as they probably remain a steady source of revenue for low costs. Especially in a time where purchasing "exotic" materials is more difficult thanks to the sparsity of functioning HPG's

[Challenger]

I’m definitely coming round to the idea that we might see a marked difference between ‘clan spec’ machines for the front line and ‘IS spec’ machines for secondary duties.

I suspect the weapons manufacturers will find themselves under increasing pressure to upgrade their offerings in the near future. No-one wants to be known as the company that builds inferior weapons (standby Quikscell) and risk losing sales to companies who were willing to upgrade.

But, if you have the production capacity/capital to do both, you might be able to have your cake and eat it.

Challenger

[AlphaMirage]

I suspect the weapons manufacturers will find themselves under increasing pressure to upgrade their offerings in the near future. No-one wants to be known as the company that builds inferior weapons (standby Quikscell) and risk losing sales to companies who were willing to upgrade.

But, if you have the production capacity/capital to do both, you might be able to have your cake and eat it.

That presumes that there is actual competition out there which I think is probably not as true as we'd like to think. Each Successor State sources almost all of their military goods from internal vendors if they can get it. Except during the Clan Invasion where everyone brought FWLeague, after the Jihad I think that brand is tarnished.

Each of these vendors are basically monopolies owned by the nobility and they don't really manufacture the same things. Although none except maybe LAW are quite as extreme as Ceres with outfitting all their machines with only their parts.

So there is very little incentive and capital, remember COMSTAR basically died post-Jihad and took down the IS economy and financial system with it, to upgrade.

[OatsAndHall]

IMO, the IS versus Clan tech discussion in 3150 either points out the incompetency of IS engineers or a glaring hole in the lore. The CLPL is a good example as the IS would have had access to them in large numbers as early as 3050 (battlefield salvage). A century later, the IS engineers still can't produce a LPL that's as effective as the Clan version.  The large X-pulse comes about in 3057 and, again, almost a century later, they haven't improved upon it. 

IMO, this would the the equivalent of saying "we know the Stg-44 is over 80 years old, but we just can't make a better version of the first assault rifle."

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think some of it is explained as materials and cost. If the Stg-44 was made out of a titanium-gold alloy and fired Diamond-tipped bullets, there’s a decent chance that no modern weapon in common service would eclipse its performance, we’d be using inferior copies that utilized more common metals which allowed it to be built for a reasonable price.

[AlphaMirage]

IMO, the IS versus Clan tech discussion in 3150 either points out the incompetency of IS engineers or a glaring hole in the lore. The CLPL is a good example as the IS would have had access to them in large numbers as early as 3050 (battlefield salvage). A century later, the IS engineers still can't produce a LPL that's as effective as the Clan version.  The large X-pulse comes about in 3057 and, again, almost a century later, they haven't improved upon it. 

IMO, this would the the equivalent of saying "we know the Stg-44 is over 80 years old, but we just can't make a better version of the first assault rifle."

There is a lot of stuff that happened during that time though, Hanse Davion's death, Victor's Self-Exile, eventual return, then exile again, Yvonne's Regency' Katherine's Usurpation, Arthur and Melissa's Assassinations, and Peter's Ascension are just a few of the changes of leadership since the Clan invasion, so there was a lot of disruption in plans.

Add to that the Chaos March, FedCom Civil War, and St Ives Affair and you probably scrambled any hope of FedCom's industrialized clantech, as more materiel needed to be pushed into service and there was no time for research or retooling except the scant Omnimechs that saw service and were found disappointing. The Word of Blake subverted the Free World's League and Trinity Alliance and likely used them to help with Blaketech for their Jihad, which was probably at least partly accomplished by the sacrifice of a lot of clantech to dark machine gods.

Of all the Successor States there are few as hidebound in tradition or as rich in Clantech as the Draconis Combine. It is likely LAW would have attempted to make clantech with Nova Cat assistance except there was the whole Black Dragon Affair (which saw the nuclear detonation of a weapon's lab) and Ghost Bear War as well as the Jihad. Plus a distinct disinterest in experimentation that might draw reprisal if unsuccessful and a through infiltration of their research wing by COMSTAR agents in exile that might have suppressed it.

[Maingunnery]

IMO, the IS versus Clan tech discussion in 3150 either points out the incompetency of IS engineers or a glaring hole in the lore. The CLPL is a good example as the IS would have had access to them in large numbers as early as 3050 (battlefield salvage). A century later, the IS engineers still can't produce a LPL that's as effective as the Clan version.  The large X-pulse comes about in 3057 and, again, almost a century later, they haven't improved upon it. 

That would be like asking an 1900's blacksmith to make a current day MBT.

[OatsAndHall]

That would be like asking an 1900's blacksmith to make a current day MBT.

I'm talking about current 3150 IS engineers. The CLPL and CERLPL haven't evolved much in nearly a century. That gives the "current" IS engineers a lot to work with yet they haven't done anything with them, other than the X-pulse. Those engineers have access to Star League PL tech, X-pulses and Clan tech for 100 years, yet they haven't produced anything that can match the CLPL. Hell, they managed to develop the X-pulse (sort of a step up from the Star League PL) seven years after the clans show up. But, they just said "the hell with it" for the next 93 years.

[Maingunnery]

I'm talking about current 3150 IS engineers. The CLPL and CERLPL haven't evolved much in nearly a century. That gives the "current" IS engineers a lot to work with yet they haven't done anything with them, other than the X-pulse. Those engineers have access to Star League PL tech, X-pulses and Clan tech for 100 years, yet they haven't produced anything that can match the CLPL. Hell, they managed to develop the X-pulse (sort of a step up from the Star League PL) seven years after the clans show up. But, they just said "the hell with it" for the next 93 years.

The Clans invaded within two decades of the houses regaining somewhat production of Star League technology, making even Xpulse a bit of a miracle. These tech levels signify centuries of technological and industrial development.

[garhkal]

I think we also have to take perspective into account. If you’re a mech manufacturer in 3145, do you want you new mech to have an ‘inferior’ gun on it, or do you fit it with the newest shiny. If you’re buying a mech in 3145, do you want a mech with an ‘inferior’ weapons fit, or do you buy something with the best gun you can afford.

There is a reason the F-16 is one of the world’s most popular jet fighters and the F-20 program died, no-one wanted to buy the ‘lesser’ aircraft.

To counter that there's a reason the AK47 is still one of the most used 'assault rifles' in RL, even WITH much newer/higher power tech out there..

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

Is that dontbreakium, related to unobtainium?   

[OatsAndHall]

The Clans invaded within two decades of the houses regaining somewhat production of Star League technology, making even Xpulse a bit of a miracle. These tech levels signify centuries of technological and industrial development.

So... They could produce the X-pulse after having access to Clan tech for seven years and Star League for twenty, but they couldn't do anything else with it in the next full century?

[Maingunnery]

So... They could produce the X-pulse after having access to Clan tech for seven years and Star League for twenty, but they couldn't do anything else with it in the next full century?

X-Pulse is still build with SL grade materials, likely as close as they could get to Clan tech at the time. If one can't reliably produce high enough quality materials and parts then making Clan tech is pretty much a fool's errand. 

[OatsAndHall]

X-Pulse is still build with SL grade materials, likely as close as they could get to Clan tech at the time. If one can't reliably produce high enough quality materials and parts then making Clan tech is pretty much a fool's errand.

As close as they could get in 3057. It doesn't make any sense to me that they couldn't pull something off in 3150, 93 years later.. Even with the issues the Dark Age caused.  They managed to (sort of) improve upon the X-Pulse in 3070 with the VSPL but I still think that some quality backwards engineering would've produced a better ISPL.

[Agathos]

The Clans invaded within two decades of the houses regaining somewhat production of Star League technology, making even Xpulse a bit of a miracle. These tech levels signify centuries of technological and industrial development.

Your reference to "centuries" tripped my alarm, so I looked it up. Clantech pulse lasers entered service in the 2820s! The smoke barely had time to clear after Operation KLONDIKE. And it's not like the Clans had working examples to copy from. I'm really surprised by that pace, and if I were writing it up I would have moved them to the latter half of the Golden Century. But we have to take it as written, and that puts me solidly on Team "Inner Sphere Engineers Have Been Loafing."

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

IIRC, most Clantech was stuff that the Star League had already been in some level of experimentation with and Kerensky took all the notes on the Exodus.

[Maingunnery]

Your reference to "centuries" tripped my alarm, so I looked it up. Clantech pulse lasers entered service in the 2820s! The smoke barely had time to clear after Operation KLONDIKE. And it's not like the Clans had working examples to copy from. I'm really surprised by that pace, and if I were writing it up I would have moved them to the latter half of the Golden Century. But we have to take it as written, and that puts me solidly on Team "Inner Sphere Engineers Have Been Loafing."

The standard LL was introduced in 2306, and the Star League LPL was introduced in 2609, so yes those big steps do take centuries.

[OatsAndHall]

The standard LL was introduced in 2306, and the Star League LPL was introduced in 2609, so yes those big steps do take centuries.

But we're not talking about a big step here. We're talking about improving upon existing pulse laser technology by reverse engineering Clan tech that was widely available over the space of a century. I'll take this a step further;  just improve the heat-diminishing capability of the of X-Pulse without changing the damage potential at any range. That should be an attainable goal over the space of 93 years.

[Maingunnery]

But we're not talking about a big step here. We're talking about improving upon existing pulse laser technology by reverse engineering Clan tech that was widely available over the space of a century.

They did improving upon existing pulse laser technology. Both X-pulse and VSP are excellent examples of the IS pushing Star League grade materials to their limits.

I'll take this a step further;  just improve the heat-diminishing capability of the of X-Pulse without changing the damage potential at any range. That should be an attainable goal over the space of 93 years.

Which would likely require clan-grade materials, and the ability to manufacture that has been spreading to the houses for the last few decades. So eventually one company will start producing clan-grade pulse lasers.

[AlphaMirage]

I actually think the attainable goal would be to put all IS Large Lasers into the 'Improved' category that's between clantech and SL tech. Clantech probably doesn't scale well to arm the Successor State militaries, its fine for their smaller Toumans, but hundreds of regiments and dozens of different contractors that's tricky. Its not a big difference but like the X-Pulse and VSPs demonstrate the IS industry is not quite capable of manufacturing advanced tech at scale and Stone's Disarmament certainly didn't help.

[Arkansas Warrior]

As close as they could get in 3057. It doesn't make any sense to me that they couldn't pull something off in 3150, 93 years later.. Even with the issues the Dark Age caused.  They managed to (sort of) improve upon the X-Pulse in 3070 with the VSPL but I still think that some quality backwards engineering would've produced a better ISPL.

Maybe they were on the verge of a breakthrough at the NAIS in 3062.  Then the FCCW happened and they got sidetracked.  Then the Jihad happened and the lab that had been working on it got trashed. So, starting over circa 3090, with Stone’s Peace breaking out and weapons development no longer a priority in the reign of Benevolent Prince Harrison, funding wasn’t there.  Now, post-Blackout Caleb ramped it up, but it was post-Blackout, hard to pass info around, it slows things.  Also Caleb was more concerned with ramping production up now than fancy new whiz-bang gadgets.  Then everything went to Hell, Kurita took New Avalon, the stuff Davion didn’t evac got stolen by the Dracs, and now the NAIS is free again…and we’re mostly having to start over from scratch.

[Minemech]

 Even with the NAIS not working at its best, the competition ought to have been able to have produced results. Perhaps the Republic was running its own form of Holy Shroud.

[OatsAndHall]

I'm opinionated about this because CLPL are arguably the best weapon in the game. And, as such, the most effective weapon within the lore. The IS pushed out other effective weapons, post 3057, (Heavy Gauss, Improved Heavy Gauss, etc) but pulse laser tech didn't move an inch beyond X-Pulse and VSP. Which would be fine if those weapons weren't so "sub par" when compared to their Clan counterparts.

[Metallgewitter]

Since we are talking about the X-Pulse laser, there is something that seems to be ignored in the whole discussion: the TRO 3055 for the Solaris Mechs mentions that the first X-Pulse Kits were as expensive as Mechs. Now if you are rebuilding your entire army you might spend your money to simply plug the holes in your army instead of wasting money on massproducing weapons that cost as much as Mechs (like a Berserker cost as much as a lance of Atlas K2). Of course the counter argument would be that the more experience you get the cheaper it is but remember at this point there were only 12 years left until the Tukayyid armistice ends (plus the short Operation Guerrero in 3057). Then later the kits were made cheaper so the lasers got their first introduction in the Solaris arenas. Still not enough for full scale production. While yes the market might now be flooded with salvage from the smoke Jaguars now we get the Fedcom civil War and Jihad soon after. So you basically have no break until 3085 and by then more holes in the armies, more production sites leveled, more money diverted to rebuilding efforts. Plus Stone's whole "swords to plowshares" program which sapped funds for weapon developments (of course counter to that could be argued that we got the production level of special armor and the newly developed Reengineered laser family) 

My last word: Operation Klondike hints that without the Jihad the IS might have managed to reach the same tech level as the clans by the late 3080's. so yeah the whole wars certainly threw a wrench in fully unlocking the Clan tech

[Challenger]

Experimental weaponry is always going to be leagues more expensive than production weapons.

Crisis tends to drive innovation not stop it and we certainly saw that between 3050-67

Despite everything, the IS went from reverse engineering Star League kit, to developing their own variants to designing entirely new weapon systems in 17 years. Never mind the all new Warships and Battle Armour that were coming online.

The Jihad was maybe a little too much of a crisis and the ‘swords in plowshares’ thing was inevitably going to produce a bit of an R&D holiday, but we are back in full blown crisis mode and if you are looking to rebuild your military your also going to be looking for that innovation that will give you troops the edge in the next fight.

After all, if your current weapons were good enough you would have won the last battle, certainly your lord’s gallant leadership cannot be to blame 

Seriously though, you might well choose to prioritise available weapons for immediate deployment. But, history also suggests that the IS tends to accelerate R&D during a crisis, not slow it down.

Challenger

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Were as Warships are still "up to date" so to speak, even being centuries old, quiaff ?

Quick side note, not to take away from OP, do Capital Weapons ever get updated ?

[OatsAndHall]

Armstrong and Krupp were hardly within easy reach of Pacific, yet their weapons were in regular use by forces on both sides of that ocean by the 1890’s. Communication and Logistical issues can be overcome with planning and preparation.

I think we also have to take perspective into account. If you’re a mech manufacturer in 3145, do you want you new mech to have an ‘inferior’ gun on it, or do you fit it with the newest shiny. If you’re buying a mech in 3145, do you want a mech with an ‘inferior’ weapons fit, or do you buy something with the best gun you can afford.

There is a reason the F-16 is one of the world’s most popular jet fighters and the F-20 program died, no-one wanted to buy the ‘lesser’ aircraft.

I’m not suggesting that IS tech will become extinct any time soon, simply that it will disappear from front line units because no self respecting front line unit will want it once better becomes available.


All that said, I agree that the current rules don’t reflect the situation I’m envisaging. But, as ThePW points out, the rules are a decade old and IIRC designed around the 3067 era when the IS had been exposed to these weapons for 17 years.

The IS now has 90+ years of experience of working with these systems. 5 whole clans have moved into the IS, it seems to my mind incredible that this kit would still be viewed as difficult to maintain. Has there been no defections, no-one has stollen a maintenance manual?


As an aside, the IS Medium Laser is I think unique in not having a proper clan equivalent. The Clan ER Medium Laser is really a Large Laser Minus (15 hex range, 7 damage) and out preformed by the IS Medium in the role of light, low heat secondary weapon. If the tech bases are ever merged, the IS Medium Laser is the only weapon I’d hope to see retained.

Challenger

IS tech gradually becoming extinct in our 3150 games. Very few of us field straight IS units anymore as there's just too much of an advantage with Clan tech and the newer IS units are getting pricier, BV-wise. Most of the IS units we bring are mixed tech at this point.

[idea weenie]

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

This does fit with the Clans originally being dueling opponents.  If your duel will only last ~20 turns, then there is no need to design a weapon that can sustain fire for 50+ turns.

This weakness is not seen when initially fighting the Inner Sphere, as their fights vs the Inner Sphere Mechs would last ~10 turns at most.

[Metallgewitter]

This does fit with the Clans originally being dueling opponents.  If your duel will only last ~20 turns, then there is no need to design a weapon that can sustain fire for 50+ turns.

This weakness is not seen when initially fighting the Inner Sphere, as their fights vs the Inner Sphere Mechs would last ~10 turns at most.

This fits with the total negligence by most Clans when it comes to logistics. No need to stock ammo, armor or spare parts when you usually only fight brief but intese duels and after that all is over. The Is forces at the beginning were simply overrun as the Clans had the better equipment and also better training (with the sole anomaly Aerospace fighters as the Is was according to the lore usually able to outfly the Clans and their weapon advantage didn't count much for the close combat of dogfights)On the other hand you have to see what the Is did unlock in just a short period of time: ER versions of all lasers, all sizes of Streak SRM's,all calibers of the speciality autocannons, target computers. Then we can add weapons like the MRM, C3 computers, two versions of the Gaus Rifle, Plasma Rifle (by the start of the Jihad), stealth armor, light and heavy ferro fibrous armor, light engines etc. So it isn't that the IS was idling around. They had the basis of SL tech by the timne of revival but the Clan's had expanded that and as shown by my listing was at leasat partially closing the gap. What the Clans had in advantage was the specialization in miniature tech. Making weapons lighter and more compact. This is something that needs a lot of time to perfect. Just an example: a Clan LRM battery weigs only half as much as the Is versions, is more compact and can also be used at close range. There goes a lot of metallurgy into it to make your existing weaponry the same. Thwe Word actually managed to build some Clan weaponry by the end but the Word was one of the few faction to be undisturbed by large warfare (plus holding Terra and it's highly valued scientific labs was probably a boon as well)