[ISW] What Happens When You Cut Someone Internal Supply Lines?

[SCC]

OK this situation isn't likely to come up that much, but it can happen. In fact there are two places on Alexander Knight's 3025 map where taking a mere five worlds from the CC causes noticeable chunks to become separated from the rest of the state.

So what do people think happens in these cases? Per RAW I'm pretty sure that military forces can move between the two separated parts of the state with problems unless the new owner has got aerospace forces specifically deployed to stop them, but personally I'm far more interested in the long term economic effects. Looking at the trade rules I'd judge that the state suffers a 5% penalty to RP generated in the cut off systems as a minimum.

Your thoughts?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Canonical cases of factional exclaves aren't as rare as I first thought once I put my mind to it.  But, they are all short lived.  I don't know that going through the bother of making rules for it is necessary. 

1) a removed slice isn't likely to remain part of the faction for long anyway.  It'll go its own way (Tikonov Free Republic), have contiguousness restored (Tikonov, Wolcott) or simply end up absorbed by its other neighbors (TFR again, unstated number of cases during 3SW where raids unexpectedly ended up conquering the world outright)  The ISW rules are about conquest, so cut-off pockets of worlds will likely resolve themselves one way or the other into not being cut off anymore in fairly short order.

2) Even if you were to look at representing the difficulties of maintaining logistics into an exclave, I think it's better done by the GM on a case by case basis.  For example, the pocket of Davion worlds between Victoria and New Syrtis that are not within 2 jumps of any other friendly Davion worlds.  Maybe it might work to dock their RP production 5% to set up or expand facilities through uninhabited systems to keep the economies of those worlds tied to the rest of the empire.  But that's not what FM3145 says they're doing... they negotiated a deal with the Taurians to go through their ostensibly neutral territory.  If the ongoing storyline were being governed by ISW rules and I were its GM, I'd probably prefer for this case to be resolved by the Davion and Taurian players.  Presumably in this case, the Taurian player is getting that 5% output tax.  Or whatever amount they agreed on.

[epic]

easy solution that I am using right now: the pocket of worlds also can NOT maintain any more units than what they can produce economically.  So, a pocket that has a chunk of troops in it that are all in combat will have said units out of supply rather quickly... and out of supply units tend to get hurt a lot more. 

Units out of supply in this manner may rebel and form their own pocket nation - or go pirate/merc. 

This forces the parent state to very quickly either deal with the pocket, or abandon it. 

[Kovax]

When a jumpship can go to or through any of several dozen alternate systems, many of them uninhabited, it makes it difficult to truly cut off an enclave.  The additional jumps and the lack of facilities at the intermediate points may make it uneconomical for commercial traffic, but it won't stop a House military intent on preserving that enclave.  They can still recharge and jump to the next system.  Unlike land warfare, there are no "front lines" in space.

In the long run, the enclave isn't viable, but in the short and intermediate term, it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

[onionmancer]

Do jumpships usually only travel in inhabited systems? I suppose the obvious appeal of doing so is access to (1) jump stations, and (2) technical support in case something goes wrong.  Otherwise there's no need to though I suppose you could stat that by imposing some penalty on resources generated in an area without contiguous borders to reflect the disruption to shipping or need to carry additional spare parts - 5% or something seems like a fair way to spitball that. 

Seems easier just to ignore it though - bookkeeping is fiddly enough as it without having to keep track of what planets do or don't have lines of communication to the capital through inhabited systems. 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Do jumpships usually only travel in inhabited systems? I suppose the obvious appeal of doing so is access to (1) jump stations, and (2) technical support in case something goes wrong.  Otherwise there's no need to though I suppose you could stat that by imposing some penalty on resources generated in an area without contiguous borders to reflect the disruption to shipping or need to carry additional spare parts - 5% or something seems like a fair way to spitball that. 

Seems easier just to ignore it though - bookkeeping is fiddly enough as it without having to keep track of what planets do or don't have lines of communication to the capital through inhabited systems.

They mainly travel through inhabited systems for both reasons 1 and 2.

1 makes it faster, and 2 makes it safer.  Going through uninhabited systems is therefore both slower and less safe by comparison, even though it's technically possible. 

Traffic that is slower and less safe as a matter of routine might be penalized by way of house rules, but then again maybe it's a rabbit hole not worth quantifying.  (the latter is my approach... I'd prefer for a referee to simply adjudicate such economic links on a case by case basis rather than making house rules to cover all such occurrences)

[SCC]

There's nothing really slower about going through an uninhabited system, and in Alex's map there are several cases in the FS or DC where you have to do it or take the long way around.

The thing is that in the case I describe is that most crews won't know to go through an uninhabited system, or even if they do they might not have the navigational data to do so.

And in cases where uninhabited systems are likely to be transited normal it's not going to be more dangerous, someone else will be along within a couple of weeks, and that's if a rescue party isn't sent out when you don't show up at your destination

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I think you raise some excellent points.. but those points all have rebuttals.

There's nothing really slower about going through an uninhabited system, and in Alex's map there are several cases in the FS or DC where you have to do it or take the long way around.

Inherently there's nothing faster or slower for collecting a charge from a star whether or not there's people living on some rock that may be orbiting it, true.  But there is a ton of difference whether you're collecting your charge through your jump sail, or from a recharge station.  You can make 2 or 3 jumps via the latter in the time it typically takes to make one of the former.

Other than the 30ly hard cap for a single jump, distance means less to logistics than time does.  You can hop "out of your way" 2 or 3 jumps and get at the same destination just as fast (or faster) than going through the more "astrographically direct" path through a single uninhabited system.  And that's before considering the advantages of a command circuit!

Post Scrip: Yes it's also possible to put recharge stations in uninhabited systems.  I'd even agree it's reasonable to presume that the Great Houses maintain a handful of them in strategic places to facilitate traffic through their empires.  They probably also have some additional stations at classified locations just for military and intelligence use.  This is part of why I said upthread that jumpship traffic through uninhabited space would better be left to a referee's rulings on a case by case basis, rather than trying to quantify all the angles via (house) rules.

The thing is that in the case I describe is that most crews won't know to go through an uninhabited system, or even if they do they might not have the navigational data to do so.

Maybe, then again maybe not.  Again, answering this question for a given leg of traffic is better left to the referee than trying to give rules to cover.

And in cases where uninhabited systems are likely to be transited normal it's not going to be more dangerous, someone else will be along within a couple of weeks, and that's if a rescue party isn't sent out when you don't show up at your destination

I question that Search and Rescue missions would be a routine answer to jumpships failing to show up on schedule.  The lore of the setting seems to imply JumpShip captains routinely don't HPG ahead flight plans.  Sure, there is some regular or recurring service (e.g. the monthly shipment of Bantha feed) but how often do we hear about raiders successfully passing (if only at first) as unannounced free traders?  And take the example of the Outbound Light... a major plot point about why it found Clan space but the IS couldn't repeat the process was that it explicitly did not file flight plans.  In a universe where flight plans are actually a routine manner of course, the Explorer Corps would never have had that lack of foresight in the first place.

There's also other angles for the unlikelihood of standing SAR practices.  Taking ATOW as canon, many JumpShips and their captains and crews are actually independent operators rather than property and subjects of this House Lord or that one.  They are independent "Spacers" and while some effort may certainly be taken to discover what happened to an overdue troop transport or megacorporate bulk hauler, the powers that be will be less concerned about noone having seen San Holo or his JumpShip for quite some time now.

[SCC]

I think you raise some excellent points.. but those points all have rebuttals.

Inherently there's nothing faster or slower for collecting a charge from a star whether or not there's people living on some rock that may be orbiting it, true.  But there is a ton of difference whether you're collecting your charge through your jump sail, or from a recharge station.  You can make 2 or 3 jumps via the latter in the time it typically takes to make one of the former.

It's actually a 7:5 ratio in favor of using recharge stations, but that's if they're available. While every jump point had them when the Star League ended, I'm pretty sure that a large percentage of them where destroyed during the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars.

Other than the 30ly hard cap for a single jump, distance means less to logistics than time does.  You can hop "out of your way" 2 or 3 jumps and get at the same destination just as fast (or faster) than going through the more "astrographically direct" path through a single uninhabited system.  And that's before considering the advantages of a command circuit!

Post Scrip: Yes it's also possible to put recharge stations in uninhabited systems.  I'd even agree it's reasonable to presume that the Great Houses maintain a handful of them in strategic places to facilitate traffic through their empires.  They probably also have some additional stations at classified locations just for military and intelligence use.  This is part of why I said upthread that jumpship traffic through uninhabited space would better be left to a referee's rulings on a case by case basis, rather than trying to quantify all the angles via (house) rules.

The problem is that this argument not only requires there to be recharge stations along the longer route, but it also requires them to be able to service ALL possible traffic. Unless you've managed to book a recharge in advance for the entire route around a dead zone, going across it may well be quicker.
 

Maybe, then again maybe not.  Again, answering this question for a given leg of traffic is better left to the referee than trying to give rules to cover.

At the very least players should be given some idea of which way the ref will rule before the game begins.

I question that Search and Rescue missions would be a routine answer to jumpships failing to show up on schedule.  The lore of the setting seems to imply JumpShip captains routinely don't HPG ahead flight plans.  Sure, there is some regular or recurring service (e.g. the monthly shipment of Bantha feed) but how often do we hear about raiders successfully passing (if only at first) as unannounced free traders?  And take the example of the Outbound Light... a major plot point about why it found Clan space but the IS couldn't repeat the process was that it explicitly did not file flight plans.  In a universe where flight plans are actually a routine manner of course, the Explorer Corps would never have had that lack of foresight in the first place.

There's also other angles for the unlikelihood of standing SAR practices.  Taking ATOW as canon, many JumpShips and their captains and crews are actually independent operators rather than property and subjects of this House Lord or that one.  They are independent "Spacers" and while some effort may certainly be taken to discover what happened to an overdue troop transport or megacorporate bulk hauler, the powers that be will be less concerned about noone having seen San Holo or his JumpShip for quite some time now.

Even if the JumpShip isn't House owned, it's probably still associated at the least with a major line, if not owned out right, which would mean it would have a regular schedule

[Colt Ward]

Nah, if it is 'independent' its like the old tramp freighters- not corporate/line owned.  For instance, Archer Christifori had his family shipping line which had 2 or 3 DS but had to use transiting JS on their regular routes.

[Colt Ward]

Not sure how granular it gets . . . but what travels along those supply lines would only be things not produced locally or in higher demand than what is produced locally.

Replacement equipment is not likely, but food, water, and fuel should be . . . which are the bulk of the supplies moved along transport networks for operations.  Myomer, armor and simple ammo might be produced on planet but things like Semi-G and Homing A4 might not be produced at every ammo plant.  IMO tech level of the planet might come into play . . . a world that has very little heavy industry, being agricultural, mining or similar, would probably not have the skills or equipment to grind focusing lenses for laser weapons.  A industrial world that does not produce military equipment will still probably be able to make replacement engine/drive parts even if not able to mass produce armor.

Its not the equivalent of a siege, unless we are talking about FedSuns actions in '66 or '67 around Tikonov.  But even with such actions they still had LFB ships popping in at pirate points to take off equipment . . . and then the Dragoons broke the blockade.