Project Aphrodite

[Arkansas Warrior]

(Mods, if this should be on the IS board please do move it.)


How much do we know about Venus, especially it’s terraforming?  I’ve read JHS: Terra, but it doesn’t say all that much.  Of course there’s the sunshade that Amaris wrecked, and there seem to have been some ground-based atmosphere processors, but what else?  Even during the height of the Star League, Venus never seems to have had more than ~200 million people, which seems awfully low, given its status as *the* breadbasket of the Terran system (with surpluses even going to surrounding systems), even if farming was largely automated.  Or maybe the population was low because it wasn’t as much a  paradise as one might expect?  Do we have any idea what equatorial temperature was? Were they able to speed up the rotation, so that it didn’t have month and a half long periods of daylight?  Was the whole planet basically one big farm, or were there tropical jungles and the like?  The Military Academy of Aphros was one of the big SLDF academies, and home to the Gunslinger Program, but I don’t know that we know anything else about it.  What about the magnetosphere?


Terraforming Venus is a topic I find interesting, but there are a lot of big questions, and I’m curious as to what BT’s solutions were. Or if they were just handwaves.

[AlphaMirage]

I think they are just handwaves, the terraforming of Mars seems *more* plausible (Project Lowell). Even a millennium with the might of the Star League in its prime doesn't seem like enough to enable surface habitation and under no circumstances would I live under a dome on such a hostile world.

I really just wished the BT creators chose the atmospheric colonization model and just have space stations that are farms and floating cities in the clouds to process that gas and send it up into those stations. I suppose that is why I write fan fictions. My present one does actually feature Venus in several scenes (the atmosphere, another one had a space station orbiting it)

[worktroll]

Sunshades, and the Star League Department of Mega-Engineering. Basically hand-waving.

They didn't address the sheer volume of atmosphere as far as I can tell. Now I've got lots of ideas, but purely head-canon (I did do meteorological modelling for other planets, back in the 1980s though.)

[PsihoKekec]

Didn't they drop some stuff that absorbed elements from atmosphere, thus gradually dropping the volume of atmosphere. The problem of terraforming failure is that with increased temperature, all the captured atmosphere is getting released, which combined with evaporated oceans, means the atmosphere is even more massive than before.

[SteelRaven]

There are two board games; Colonizing Mars and a expansion, Venus Next. Fun resource management games that allow you to play with all the different ideas for terraforming. Just add "Terran Hegemony" to the games story and say "Yeah, it happened something like that."  

 

[beachhead1985]

Weren't an isolationist WoB sect the last folk on Venus before WoB-ROM blew up their reactor or some-such?

[PsihoKekec]

There were couple of dome cities left, then the one with isolationist sect had an unfortunate technical malfunction that killed everyone in that dome, so WoB evacuated the populations of other domes, to prevent further tragedies.

[Liam's Ghost]

Sunshades, and the Star League Department of Mega-Engineering. Basically hand-waving.

They didn't address the sheer volume of atmosphere as far as I can tell. Now I've got lots of ideas, but purely head-canon (I did do meteorological modelling for other planets, back in the 1980s though.)

Maybe they used the excess atmosphere as propellant when they spun the planet up to shorten the day/night cycle.

[Natasha Kerensky]

The real obstacle to terraforming Venus is the removal of the equivalent of 91 Earth atmospheres of carbon dioxide from the Venusian atmosphere.  Sunshades won’t do that.  It requires a major resurfacing of the planet to capture the carbon geochemically, as well as the introduction of massive amounts of some kind of additional chemo-physical catalyst to do that geochemical capture on the timeline that BT history requires.  Or it requires the introduction of an incredible amount of hydrogen, from a gas giant planet or the Sun/Sol, to strip the oxygen from the carbon dioxide, creating oceans of water and soot.  I don’t recall any references in BT lore regarding either technique.  More here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Venus

[Arkansas Warrior]

The real obstacle to terraforming Venus is the removal of the equivalent of 91 Earth atmospheres of carbon dioxide from the Venusian atmosphere.  Sunshades won’t do that.  It requires a major resurfacing of the planet to capture the carbon geochemically, as well as the introduction of massive amounts of some kind of additional chemo-physical catalyst to do that geochemical capture on the timeline that BT history requires.  Or it requires the introduction of an incredible amount of hydrogen, from a gas giant planet or the Sun/Sol, to strip the oxygen from the carbon dioxide, creating oceans of water and soot.  I don’t recall any references in BT lore regarding either technique.  More here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Venus

Fun fact: I was just reading that page the other day, it’s what inspired this thread.


I actually found some things going back through JHS:Terra, and I think there may be some hints in Liberation of Terra II, I’ll check when I get home and have more thorough information later.

[cray]

The real obstacle to terraforming Venus is the removal of the equivalent of 91 Earth atmospheres of carbon dioxide from the Venusian atmosphere.

No, that's relatively easy compared to some parts of Venusian terraforming. The excess atmosphere is an easily pumped and moved fluid. In BT, the excess atmosphere was partly bonded with Mercurian calcium to form artificial soil and limestone beds, and the rest was ejected to accelerate the world's spin.

None of the above is easy. It involves moving dwarf planetary masses of material (which just came up in BT fact checking, incidentally - the Terran system is back in the news). But, frankly, those problems were easy compared to this:

Venus is 464C/900F at the surface and doesn't get colder as you head toward the core. There is no easy way to extract heat from unmovable, solid, water-free rock. Even after you cool the atmosphere, eject excess atmosphere and sequester it as soil, add oceans of water, and cut sunlight to a sensible 1400W/square meter, every place on the planet will be basically sitting on superheated rock within a few tens of meters of the surface.

Can you imagine kids finding literally red hot rock whenever they dig a hole in the backyard? That's a heck of a problem to solve.

What's scary is the Terran Alliance managed it. Somehow. And handled most of it in about 150 years.

Sunshades won’t do that.

Sunshades will play a useful role in reduing wattage at the surface, though.

[Daryk]

Tagging this thread for greater glory! ;D

[Natasha Kerensky]

In BT, the excess atmosphere was partly bonded with Mercurian calcium to form artificial soil and limestone beds, and the rest was ejected to accelerate the world's spin.

Was that ever published?

It involves moving dwarf planetary masses of material

Ryan Iceship Cartel to the rescue...

every place on the planet will be basically sitting on superheated rock within a few tens of meters of the surface.

Can you imagine kids finding literally red hot rock whenever they dig a hole in the backyard? That's a heck of a problem to solve.

As long as it’s consistently tens of meters under the surface and no one is stupid enough to dig their own basement, sounds more a geothermal energy source than a problem.

What's scary is the Terran Alliance managed it. Somehow. And handled most of it in about 150 years.

Polystyrene microspheres may accelerate the formation of magnesite (MgCO3) by orders of magnitude, even at room temps:

https://phys.org/news/2018-08-scientists-mineral-co2-atmosphere.html

But even if the CO2 could be removed and other issues dealt with instantaneously, I imagine it would take much longer than the BT timeline for the radically altered atmosphere, new oceans, and geophysics to reach a stable equilibrium and not threaten settlements with hypercanes, tsunamis, and quakes.

[cray]

Was that ever published?

Yes.

But even if the CO2 could be removed and other issues dealt with instantaneously, I imagine it would take much longer than the BT timeline for the radically altered atmosphere, new oceans, and geophysics to reach a stable equilibrium and not threaten settlements with hypercanes, tsunamis, and quakes.

Yep. The magic exhibited by the Terran Alliance is a problem for continuity and culminated in the assination of Simon Cameron.

[Arkansas Warrior]

No, that's relatively easy compared to some parts of Venusian terraforming. The excess atmosphere is an easily pumped and moved fluid. In BT, the excess atmosphere was partly bonded with Mercurian calcium to form artificial soil and limestone beds, and the rest was ejected to accelerate the world's spin.

None of the above is easy. It involves moving dwarf planetary masses of material (which just came up in BT fact checking, incidentally - the Terran system is back in the news). But, frankly, those problems were easy compared to this:

Venus is 464C/900F at the surface and doesn't get colder as you head toward the core. There is no easy way to extract heat from unmovable, solid, water-free rock. Even after you cool the atmosphere, eject excess atmosphere and sequester it as soil, add oceans of water, and cut sunlight to a sensible 1400W/square meter, every place on the planet will be basically sitting on superheated rock within a few tens of meters of the surface.

Can you imagine kids finding literally red hot rock whenever they dig a hole in the backyard? That's a heck of a problem to solve.

What's scary is the Terran Alliance managed it. Somehow. And handled most of it in about 150 years.

Sunshades will play a useful role in reduing wattage at the surface, though.

I figured you were involved in the writing on those.  Thanks Cray!  The heat's a problem I hadn't considered, figured subtracting atmosphere and adding water would've largely dealt with that.


Anyway, to go back to some of the other points that have been raised, JHS: Terra talks about the use of specially-engineered "terraforming algae" plus calcium from mercury, to turn much of the carbon dioxide atmosphere into limestone.  Hydrogen from comets and Titan are also mentioned being added.  More atmosphere was, as Cray notes, used as reaction mass to spin the planet up to a 48 hour day (it's been a while since I read this, but I'm surprised I forgot that).  Still a retrograde rotation, I wonder?  Probably.  All of this apparently took less than a century, rendering Venus habitable by the mid-2200s (well before the Star League's Mega-Engineering, as it turns out).  JHS:Terra also mentions nitrogen being sequestered, and some of the resulting solids being found to make good fertilizer which, combined with the invention of artificial soil (I'm still not sure what that means, exactly.  Can we not do that with compost currently?) allowed Venus to feed "the Terran system and several nearby colonies."  It's not mentioned, but I wonder if Venusian atmosphere might also have been useful for Mars; certainly Venus had plenty to spare, and could have given Mars an atmosphere thicker than Earth's without noticing the loss.  Even cooled to a liquid, though, that much CO2 or N2 is going to take a lot of dropships to move, though.


Cray, do you have any idea what Venus's temperature would've been like during the Star League era?  JHS: Terra just gives the sweltering version that was current as of the Jihad.  Are we talking tropical rainforest, or something that makes Death Valley seem cool?  Also, given its relatively low axial tilt, it shouldn't have very notable seasons, right?  Maybe something more like the Dry Season/Monsoon Season dynamic of parts of Earth's tropics?  Likewise, without a moon I'm guessing it wouldn't have much in the way of tides?

[I am Belch II]

Didn't they also make Venus turn in to a 3-day rotation, instead of 250 days?

I remember reading that somewhere.

[cray]

Didn't they also make Venus turn in to a 3-day rotation, instead of 250 days?

48 hours, per JHS:Terra p. 159.

Still a retrograde rotation, I wonder?  Probably.

Nope. Venus was rotating so slowly that if you're spinning it up to 48 hours a day that you might as well go prograde. all the cool planets like prograde rotation.

JHS:Terra also mentions nitrogen being sequestered, and some of the resulting solids being found to make good fertilizer

Yep. Venus has 3x Earth's atmospheric nitrogen inventory. It had to go somewhere.

which, combined with the invention of artificial soil (I'm still not sure what that means, exactly.

Neither do I.

It's not mentioned, but I wonder if Venusian atmosphere might also have been useful for Mars; certainly Venus had plenty to spare, and could have given Mars an atmosphere thicker than Earth's without noticing the loss.  Even cooled to a liquid, though, that much CO2 or N2 is going to take a lot of dropships to move, though.

DropShips are not fit for the task of moving dwarf planetary masses of atmosphere and water.

Cray, do you have any idea what Venus's temperature would've been like during the Star League era?

Human habitable, not over 40C at the equator. Details TBD.

[worktroll]

No, that's relatively easy compared to some parts of Venusian terraforming. The excess atmosphere is an easily pumped and moved fluid. In BT, the excess atmosphere was partly bonded with Mercurian calcium to form artificial soil and limestone beds, and the rest was ejected to accelerate the world's spin.

Mental image of huge-ass WarShip-rated engines lined up all around Venus' equator, pointed about 30 degrees above the horizon. Huge intake scoops sucking in the atmosphere, and blasting it out as reaction mass  with the intent of spinning the planet up.

What did they do with the engines when they were finished, I wonder?  (Assuming that's what happened.)

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

They probably left them there as some kind of monument rather than trying to recycle them into something practical. This is the Sol system after all, a project that benefitted only them and cost Infinity dollars was what they expected.

[Arkansas Warrior]

DropShips are not fit for the task of moving dwarf planetary masses of atmosphere and water.

Ok, not “DropShips” per se, after all this was the 22nd century.  But if they were moving dwarf planetary masses worth of hydrogen, calcium, etc *to* Venus, seems like they’d have had the capability of moving a bar or so’s atmosphere from Venus to Mars.

[Prospernia]

Actually, it's called, "Uzza". 

The first colonies on Venus will probably be floating-cities in the upper-atmosphere, where it's comfortable for humans.

If you can terraform the atmosphere, all that CO2 can be separated into O2, and if you add hydrogen, you can make water; but, what to do with all that carbon?  You need to eject it into space.

So, increase Venus' spin; so, poor Venus get hit and knocked upside-down during the Hadrian-epoch and being closer to the Sun, slowed it's rotation; but, if you increase the spin, you need a lot of power, a lot of power to move a planet so, that's going to generate heat.  Venus doesn't need anymore heat.

One problem with terraforming Venus is we're trying to solve a future problem with current-technology.  Can't we use HPG and just gate the atmosphere, to some other system?

And can't we use all that carbon from the CO2 in orbital-manufacturing?  Could you not have a viable orbital-shipyards around Venus? 

But in the end, you need Venus to have a high-rotation-rate to turn on Uzza's magnetic-field. But, in the end, humanity is going to bollocks that up; so, a 31st century Venus will be:

Have a five-hour day (whoops).
Be about  50% Oxygen
Atmospheric-pressure is still high, maybe still be very hot, but the air-pressure is high enough for liquid-water.
Have a low amount of water on the surface; the only why to get hydrogen is from the stellar-wind and then combine it with O2.
It would be awesome for photosynthesis, so, plants may have to be in greenhouses (trap the water), or genetically modified.

[Kithran]

Re the creation of artificial soil, given when this was probably written you probably want to look at Farmer in the Sky by Robert A Heinlein for what they were probably thinking of when they came up with the comment.

[Prospernia]

IMHO, by the year 3000, the Earth-System should include a fully terraformed Venus with a near 24-hour rotation, with hot, but not too hot weather with a fully breathable-atmosphere, trees, and oceans, and just leave the real science of terraforming the beast left to the ages. They used, "Star-League", technology.

[cray]

The problem with a terraformed planet enjoying 2,622 watts per square meter of sunlight, a lot of water coverage, a fast 48-hour day (or 24 hours), and a crust that was 450C close to the surface is that it needs constant maintenance. Venus had no maintenance for 300 years because Amaris was a jerk and Comstar was negligently cruel.

[Liam's Ghost]

The hot springs on Venus must have been absolutely magnificent. Or terrifying.

[Dragon Cat]

I've never thought once about the terraforming effort on Venus

I'm curious now though

So given the effort to terraform it then the subsequent neglect is Venus now somewhere in between the two?

On topic of Terra system was Mars fully terraformed I can't remember

Star League scien... Magic was great

[cray]

So given the effort to terraform it then the subsequent neglect is Venus now somewhere in between the two?

JHS:Terra describes Venus as of 3078. Its surface temperature is about 250C, surface pressure was 45 atmospheres (mostly steam), and there's still 31% water coverage because the high pressure is suppressing boiling in the oceans. The expectation was that as carbon dioxide and nitrogen sinks decomposed over the next century, Venus was going to turn into an epic hell surpassing 20th Century Venus.

On topic of Terra system was Mars fully terraformed I can't remember

Yes. Its atmosphere is a bit thin and cold compared to Terra, but it does have oceans, a full ecosystem, and a modest population. No one wants to live there because it's less pleasant than Terra (and formerly Venus). The walls of the vast artificial canal between the Hellas Basin and Northern Polar Basin used to be very popular with the ultra-wealthy of the Hegemony, but that ended after Liberation from Amaris.

The hot springs on Venus must have been absolutely magnificent. Or terrifying.

Yeah. I'm trying to figure out how the Alliance and Hegemony got the crust to a habitable temperature. Lots of robotic drilling and cooling operations for the upper hundred meters or so?

[ColBosch]

JHS:Terra describes Venus as of 3078. Its surface temperature is about 250C, surface pressure was 45 atmospheres (mostly steam), and there's still 31% water coverage because the high pressure is suppressing boiling in the oceans. The expectation was that as carbon dioxide and nitrogen sinks decomposed over the next century, Venus was going to turn into an epic hell surpassing 20th Century Venus.

I like the idea that, ultimately, the Star League made things worse for Venus. It fits in well with the Star League ultimately making things worse for humanity in general.

Yeah. I'm trying to figure out how the Alliance and Hegemony got the crust to a habitable temperature. Lots of robotic drilling and cooling operations for the upper hundred meters or so?

We've got a solution: hyperspace. Use geothermal energy to power HPG-like devices that jump big chunks of atmosphere to a random point in interstellar space. You don't care about what happens to those terrible gases, so you can fire off jumps on the planet's surface (or in its atmosphere) without misjump worries. (See the Ryan Cartel's method of transporting icy asteroids for precedence.) You might need hundreds of HPG-likes, but the League had money to burn, and since these aren't built to HPG or proper jump drive precision, they could be far cheaper. That same lack of precision means that you couldn't use these to transport goods or even raw materials directly from planet to planet, let alone invading troops. Or maybe the devices are also very short-ranged (1 or 2 light-years). In a nutshell, if you don't care what happens to what you're jumping except to make it go away, you can probably cut a lot of corners and make it work.

This might also explain Apollyon's rumored hyperspace cannon...

What this won't help with is all the other problems associated with terraforming. Good luck with those.

[Dragon Cat]

I forgot about JHS Terra having profiles on the planets I'll have to go have a look

Quite amusing that they made Venus worse and mars while successful because of all the room on Terra (with a smaller population) noone wants to live on Mars

[Daryk]

The imprecision of jumping shouldn't preclude targeting Mars with those chunks of atmosphere... ;)