XTRO: Heavy Industry -- Master Thread

[idea weenie]

I can only recommend re-running your math, then.  Orders of magnitude differences in energy output will almost certainly yield a different result...

Ideally yes, but here is the math for a TL D 10-ton Wheeled Support vehicle moving speed 4/6, from TechManual (corrected 6th printing):
Engine value: .0075
Movement Factor = 4 + (4x4) = 20

Fuel Cell math:
Engine Weight multiplier (p127): 1.0 (I am ignoring fuel tank mass)
Engine weight: 1.0 * 20 * .0075 * 10 tons = 1.5 tons

Fusion Engine math:
Engine Weight multiplier (p127): 1.0
Engine weight: 1.0 * 20 * .0075 * 10 tons = 1.5 tons


Engine cost math (p280)
Fuel Cell Cost math: 5000 * 1.5 * 1.4 = 10,500
Fusion Engine Cost math: 5000 * 1.5 * 2 = 15,000

(Final Structural Cost and Final Unit Cost formula ignored as it would be identical for both; 1.0 & 1.05)


The extra weight for a Fuel Cell is from the spare tankage needed to travel distances, while the Fusion plant doesn't need to worry about that detail.  Beyond that they both mass the same and the Fuel Cell is 30% cheaper.

[Lycanphoenix]

Maybe instead of calling it a "hybrid engine", we call it an "auxiliary fusion generator". Provides just enough power to run something like a mining laser or spot welder without needing amplifiers. Good for an IndustrialMech?

[Daryk]

*snip*I am ignoring fuel tank mass
*snip*

That's the issue.

[Lycanphoenix]

Auxiliary Fusion Generator (Equipment)
- 0.5 tons, two critical spaces.
- Can only be mounted on mechs or vehicles not using Fusion engines. A maximum of two auxiliary fusion generates may be mounted. On mechs, it can only be mounted in the side or center torso regions.
- Enables energy weapons to be fired without the use of amplifiers. Can also operate high-powered equipment like spot welders and mining lasers, but the power output is not sufficient to run Heavy Gauss Rifles.
- Cost: 10,000 C-Bills
- Comes with a free heat sink of any type, integrated directly into the generator and occupying no critical spaces.
- To reduce heat output, it usually uses deuterium instead of ordinary hydrogen. This is just fluff however, and has no affect on gameplay.
- The Auxiliary Fusion Generator cannot contribute to a mech's movement capabilities; it simply doesn't produce enough power. At best, it can power a single JumpJet on a light mech... Or two jump jets, if you have two generators.
- Notes: It is basically just a modified ProtoMech engine.

[idea weenie]

That's the issue.

Still, you are right about a fusion reactor should be providing far more energy just from the reactor (and drive train) than a Fuel Cell + Drive train.  The 'fun part' is that this would invalidate a lot of designs.

Auxiliary Fusion Generator (Equipment)
- 0.5 tons, two critical spaces.
- Can only be mounted on mechs or vehicles not using Fusion engines. A maximum of two auxiliary fusion generates may be mounted. On mechs, it can only be mounted in the side or center torso regions.
- Enables energy weapons to be fired without the use of amplifiers. Can also operate high-powered equipment like spot welders and mining lasers, but the power output is not sufficient to run Heavy Gauss Rifles.
- Cost: 10,000 C-Bills
- Comes with a free heat sink of any type, integrated directly into the generator and occupying no critical spaces.
- To reduce heat output, it usually uses deuterium instead of ordinary hydrogen. This is just fluff however, and has no affect on gameplay.
- The Auxiliary Fusion Generator cannot contribute to a mech's movement capabilities; it simply doesn't produce enough power. At best, it can power a single JumpJet on a light mech... Or two jump jets, if you have two generators.
- Notes: It is basically just a modified ProtoMech engine.

I'd allow it to be mounted on Fusion-engined Mechs & vehicles, it just provides no extra benefit, and is only useful to fire weapons and run sensors when the Mech/vehicle has shut down.  The problem is that it can't power the limbs, so the weapons can only fire at the ground.

Still, for half a ton to remove the need for Power Amplifiers, this is a useful piece of equipment for any energy-using vehicle.  It won't make up for the need for Heat Sinks, but spending a half ton on an Auxiliary Fusion Reactor (AFR) is better than spending 1 ton on Power Amplifiers for a PPC.

And since it is a modified Protomech engine, that would make it TL F, so there is already plenty of competition from other TL F items

[Daryk]

Don't underestimate the boost provided by being able to shoot at zero hex range...  ^-^

[Lycanphoenix]

I'm going to be introducing a Safety Rating system for IndustrialMechs, based loosely on the Technology Rating system. However, the Safety Rating thing will just be in-universe fluff. I will describe how it works in detail in its own thread, but here is a quick overview of the letter grades.
A: Exceptional
B: Above Average
C: Average
D: Below Average
E: Poor
F: Unacceptable

There is also an X rating, for specialty units which are exempt from the safety rating system altogether... But it would be very rare, only handed out when there is a very good reason. Examples include prototypes and one-of-a-kind units.

Again, I will create a separate thread for IndustrialMech Safety Ratings when I have an opportunity to figure out rules for assigning them.

[idea weenie]

I'm going to be introducing a Safety Rating system for IndustrialMechs, based loosely on the Technology Rating system. However, the Safety Rating thing will just be in-universe fluff. I will describe how it works in detail in its own thread, but here is a quick overview of the letter grades.
A: Exceptional
B: Above Average
C: Average
D: Below Average
E: Poor
F: Unacceptable

There is also an X rating, for specialty units which are exempt from the safety rating system altogether... But it would be very rare, only handed out when there is a very good reason. Examples include prototypes and one-of-a-kind units.

Again, I will create a separate thread for IndustrialMech Safety Ratings when I have an opportunity to figure out rules for assigning them.

I'd swap the order:
A: Actively hazardous to user
B: No safety
C: Poor/Unacceptable
D: Average:
E: Above Average
F: Exceptional / requires effort to get hurt
G: Can be used by an intoxicated person and still provide quality output (i.e. automated systems with a computer interface to select the desired output)

The reason is that you can always get safer, but extra danger means you eventually you reach a point where the unit is too dangerous to use and repaired/refitted/scrapped.  By putting the 'zero' point at 'A' you avoid trapping yourself at the front of the alphabet.

[Lycanphoenix]

I find myself wondering how you would build an entire IndustrialMech that can be safely used by a drunk. Isn't that what breathalyzers are for? O.o

This reminds me, I need to write up some incidents which resulted in breathalyzers getting installed on mechs.

[Retry]

I find myself wondering how you would build an entire IndustrialMech that can be safely used by a drunk. Isn't that what breathalyzers are for? O.o

Easy.  Just make it AI controlled, like a civilianized version of SRCS (Smart Robotic Control System).

The intoxicated operator can shout orders at his massive robot buddy and spend the rest of the day recovering in the lounge while the AI Mech translates the commands into something sensible and does the actual work.

[Lycanphoenix]

Okay, a brief summary of new rules I'd like to include in this XTRO:
• Screw-propelled vehicles
• Industrial OmniMechs (aka Omni-Industrials)
• Industrial AirMechs (non-transforming)
• Safety Rating and Safety Value
• Fishing (yes, fishing)
• Any equipment-specific rules

[Hazard Pay]

Auxiliary Fusion Generator (Equipment)

Could this theoretically have a place in charging a PPC Capacitor independently while the (Insert) PPC is already firing? Because it feels like this could work if you want to run a Capacitor without sacrificing damage output. Obviously, it would need to be in the same area, meaning only Torsos due to the Auxiliary Engine rules.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC_Capacitor

[Lycanphoenix]

Wouldn't that be a bit overpowered?

[idea weenie]

Unless the Capacitor as a part of the PPC uses the PPC's cooling systems to avoid melting?  So the limit is the PPC's inherent cooling ability, rather than the power input.

[Daryk]

There's a reason multiple power plants aren't allowed...  ^-^

[Lycanphoenix]

Preview of the inevitable fishing thread...
-------
Fishing Gear, Recreational: Lorem Ipsum something or other, this is stuff you put on your mech or vehicle so that you can fish. This is mostly just a fluff item, but there will be optional gameplay rules and stuff.

Fishing Gear, Commercial: Now you're talking! The kit is a bit more complex as much more equipment is involved.
-------
Trying to figure out how to actually word it, as well as actual rules and stuff.

[Lycanphoenix]

Hey everyone, I had a thought.

What if we made rules for a vehicular-mounted trash compactor?