Political instability in the Capellan Confederation?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It occurred to me recently that it seems like the CC has had the most stable of all dynasties in the Inner Sphere.  I can't think of any instances where someone made a serious push to try an take over the state from inside, not even during the worst years of Romano's reign when she was busy offing people left and right because of her paranoia.

Now, some would say that this is due to the loyalty and skill of the Mask and Death Commandos, but I've got to call BS on this because even the Draconis Combine has had their own longstanding issues with the Black Dragon Society no matter how hard the ISF and DEST work to eliminate them.

So I've got to ask, have there been any instances of major plots or schemes conducted by one or more people inside the Confederation to try to get their own butts into the Celestial Throne?

[BrianDavion]

the answer is "nope not really" and this can be explained quite simply with the fact that the CapCon is, the only sucessor state without march lords. The other 4 sucessor states all have eistablished interior groups, "march lords" if you will vying for power, influence etc. the LC has had, tradtionally, Tamar and Skye, the Combine ahs had it's Warlords, the FWL it's provinces, and the FedSuns it's march lords. The power of these individual parts has, obviously, varied with time but they can easily become a thorn in the side of the ruler. The Capcon COMPLETELY lacks this, and in fact they had an oppertunity to CREATE one with St.Ives and then had St.Ives drink the bloody Kool Aid during the Jihad. This, combined with having the largest most powerful military in the inner sphere in the 3140s has resulted in a faction is... kinda dull

[Metallgewitter]

I think the only "fraction" that comes even remotely close to being something of a thorn might be the house of Scions on Capella. It is noted that those people gained more power during the Jihad but it seems that was just a brush fire and Sun Tzu kept them on a tight leash. Also unlike houses like the Free Worlds LEague or Lyran Commonwealth you don't have powerful branch families of House Liao. At the very least I can't think of any not main family Liao who ever hold much power. You could say the Confederation might be that one house where the saying "The state is me" seems to be 100% true

[Angrii]

Also: collectivism.

It's citizens and nobility (in large part) actually desire and work towards what they consider the greater good. Xin Sheng citizen!

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And the idea that nobody ever decides that they have a better idea of what the "greater good" is than current leadership is one of the most unbelievable things in the entire BTU.

[Metallgewitter]

And the idea that nobody ever decides that they have a better idea of what the "greater good" is than current leadership is one of the most unbelievable things in the entire BTU.

I was gonna say that unlike the Combine which also seem rather "collective" in some aspects the confederation always has that one man or woman to lead it. And even if a non-Liao like Normann Aris comes into play no civil war tendencies emerge.

[OatsAndHall]

I agree with you, the CC does seem to have the least amount of internal strife. There's a wide variety of explanations: the small size of the "empire", the lack of "marches", an underlying, fanatical loyalty to the confederation coupled with a population that's oppressed and impoverished.

[Angrii]

Are they impoverished though? As I recall, they actually do a lot better than the citizenry of other Successor States for standard of living and literacy/education.

Oppressed, I can admit.

[OatsAndHall]

Are they impoverished though? As I recall, they actually do a lot better than the citizenry of other Successor States for standard of living and literacy/education.

Oppressed, I can admit.

I can really only attest to what I've read in the novels. In Close Quarters Milan describes a pretty bleak Capellan society.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Are they impoverished though? As I recall, they actually do a lot better than the citizenry of other Successor States for standard of living and literacy/education.

Oppressed, I can admit.

They're third place, ahead of the Davions and Dracs, but that's really not saying much.

[AlphaMirage]

I mean we are also talking about presented areas in novels. The Southwestern worlds of the FWL are apparently unpleasant, the outer belt of the Lyran Commonwealth is poorly explored and subject to frequent pirate incursions, same can be said of the Draconis Rift and Federation Outback. Odds are likely that the 'average' Capellan might be better off than their Periphery neighbors (even the MoC which has more 'high' but likely as much 'low'), periphery of Successor States,  or distant badlands of even Throne worlds (remember planets are big and the wilds upon them vast and likely underdeveloped), but their max is much lower unless they are someone very important. Thus while the average Capellan is not living a life of material abundance they are likely content in their Dredd multiplexes covered in posters depicting the Chancellor's smiling face.

[Metallgewitter]

There is also to add that the Confederation has a caste system. The servitors actually have it worst with sometimes even being slaves to others (though Sun Tzu abolished said practice). Do other realms have a defined caste system? I think even the Combine has more "freedoms" in that regard. And you have to earn your citizenship by working for the state. I would suspect that this ingrainsd a kind of loyalty into your thinking. Just lke how Is populations have become loyal to the Clans that ruled them for decades (taken from Tamar Rising where one writer speculates that even if the Commonwealth retakes long lost planets converting hte population back to the Is way will be harder then anticipated)

[Angrii]

Servitors can actually earn their citizenship. In the Combine, their untouchable class is pretty much stuck there, I think.

[MadCapellan]

The Capellan Confederation is not without internal strife, but the preferred method is assassination or a palace coup, not open rebellion.  Maximillian took the Celestial Throne that way, & Sun-Tzu's succession was likewise the result of assassination with his installation the intended result.

The reason you don't see civil wars in the Confederation, other than the lack of any real non-Liao decision-makers, is a general collective understanding that a civil war would likely mean instant conquest & partition of the state by its neighbors. It is a game where all players would lose.

[Minemech]

The Capellan Confederation is not without internal strife, but the preferred method is assassination or a palace coup, not open rebellion.  Maximillian took the Celestial Throne that way, & Sun-Tzu's succession was likewise the result of assassination with his installation the intended result.

The reason you don't see civil wars in the Confederation, other than the lack of any real non-Liao decision-makers, is a general collective understanding that a civil war would likely mean instant conquest & partition of the state by its neighbors. It is a game where all players would lose.

Furthering this, the Sarna Mandate and Korvin Doctrine go to the heart of what it means to be part of the state. To a Capellan, the state is reality, all else is chaos.

 The novels really went to pushing the Lorix Order aspect with Danai, but the above two are defining.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The reason you don't see civil wars in the Confederation, other than the lack of any real non-Liao decision-makers, is a general collective understanding that a civil war would likely mean instant conquest & partition of the state by its neighbors. It is a game where all players would lose.

Yeah, seriously not buying that the Confederation is the only faction in the entire game where everyone is smart enough to realize that.

[Minemech]

Yeah, seriously not buying that the Confederation is the only faction in the entire game where everyone is smart enough to realize that.

It is less a matter of intelligence and more specifically a matter of mentality. In the Confederation the Chancellor is everything, the very avatar of the State. To move against a Chancellor overtly is to be at war with the very concept of Capellanhood. The united humanity through the state is the only hope for humanity. This is deeply ingrained.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Eh, especially after Grey Monday I don't buy that worlds would have started moving away from that just because of the necessity that the hyper-centralization of government was no longer feasible.

[BrianDavion]

It is less a matter of intelligence and more specifically a matter of mentality. In the Confederation the Chancellor is everything, the very avatar of the State. To move against a Chancellor overtly is to be at war with the very concept of Capellanhood. The united humanity through the state is the only hope for humanity. This is deeply ingrained.

You just described france prior to the revolution.

[MadCapellan]

Yeah, seriously not buying that the Confederation is the only faction in the entire game where everyone is smart enough to realize that.

Yet that hasn't been the case for the others, but it was the case for the Confederation from its very founding. the Capellan Confederation came into being becauae the constituent countries were under imminent threat of occupation & absorbtion. "We all stick together or we all hang separately" is embedded in their history & national identity.

[Marveryn]

Yet that hasn't been the case for the others, but it was[/ii] the case for the Confederation from its very founding. the Capellan Confederation came into being becauae the constituent countries were under imminent threat of occupation & absorbtion. "We all stick together or we all hang separately" is embedded in their history & national identity.

agreed ever since the cap been push the corner they been more likely to stick together than die separately Like previous stated when it comes to change in government it normally by assassination than someone gathering a strong military force.  St Ives was the closes to an internal war and sun tzu use his connection as the first star lord to break them and force them back in the fold.  Which was had been his calling card to use the least amount of force to gain the baggiest piece of territories.  it work for the Sarna Supremacy when he conquer it and the highlanders. 

We dont know if the current chancellor learn that lesson well or not.  We do see a slight break up with the Magistrate and the lost of the Big Mac as a Line unit.  This show that the current head is not as nearly as clever (Plot armor) as his father.  the question the lead is when the wall finally fall and he has to deal with the Wolves on terra will the destruction of his forces there would weaken enough that he then has to deal with warlords in places he had not expected or one of his sibs will try for a play at the throne. 

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Yeah, seriously not buying that the Confederation is the only faction in the entire game where everyone is smart enough to realize that.

I don't think it's about being smart enough, Cappies aren't smarter than average Successor State

It's just that everyone there is fully aware of the fact that other States have enough raw mass to be able to afford fighting civil wars without getting eaten by their neighbors while they don't

[OatsAndHall]

Some of their stability might also be due to the fact that they've typically been on the losing end of military campaigns. They've also been invaded consistently and the Liaos have always done a decent job of painting the CC as the victims of the rest of the IS.

[Gorgon]

At the tail end of the 3rd SW, nearly all systems of the Confederation are within two jumps of an enemy border. I can absolutely believe that the need to avoid open conflict within the Confederation is more intensely felt by all actors.

Besides, we have at least three acts of internal revolt I can think of: the revolt in 2451, which led to all ranks above Colonel being stricken from the CCAF for 600 years (implying strong political control of the CCAF, even compared to the DCMS)

And then there are Pavel Ridzik and Candace Liao absconding with large parts of the Confederation, made possible due to internal strife within the highest echelons of power (and losing the 4th SW and Justina Allard's dastardly good looks or what ever)

[Minemech]

 At the tails end of the 3rd, the destabilizing factor was the arrival of the Dragoons. The states were all relatively stable beforehand, though there was plenty of intrigue between states. All states have bad actors within them, the Dragoons just allowed Maximilian to play a man with delusions of grandeur, and even he would have held back had the Dragoons not been available.

 PS The mode of transition of power in the Draconis Combine is not indicative of its stability as a state.

[BrianDavion]

Yet that hasn't been the case for the others, but it was the case for the Confederation from its very founding. the Capellan Confederation came into being becauae the constituent countries were under imminent threat of occupation & absorbtion. "We all stick together or we all hang separately" is embedded in their history & national identity.

The quote is "hang together or hang seperately"your version loses some of the poeteticness. the thing is, that even if that's true it's also kinda unrealistic.  St.Ives is actually what I'm going to specificly target here, during the interm dark age period the devs deliberately defanged St.Ives and removed their independance, despite us being told the treaty with st.ives did make a few concessions. This is doubly annoying as the capcon in the Dark Ages is NOT a weak state, they are one of the PRE-EMINANT POWERS of the Dark Age era. So the "ohh they can't afford it" bit is BS. Also I find it impossiable to belive SunTzu Liao made the huge number of changes he did, including changing the capcon flag (by which he removed a important bit of political symbolism, all to "chinafy" the flag)  and apparently faced no oppisition towards it. As someone whose a student of political science that's right up there with "And then he won the war when his Unicorn brigade flew in and defeated the enemy mechs with the power of their rainbow farts" :) )

[Maelwys]

The Thuggees could have been interesting, but in  the Jihad it turned into "Just as Sun Tzu planned" and in the Dark Ages with Ki-linn killing herself, that definitely puts a damper on the likelihood of something major changing.

I'm not saying I want to see the Capellans stuck with the Lyran/FedSun noble issues, but something would be nice. Might be that Danai/the Canopians are the only hope there.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

One of the reasons I started this thread is because I just read Blood Will Tell last week and it left me thinking about the fact that Daoshen has an honest to goodness god complex and yet somehow everything seemed to run remarkably smoothly anyway.

[Minemech]

One of the reasons I started this thread is because I just read Blood Will Tell last week and it left me thinking about the fact that Daoshen has an honest to goodness god complex and yet somehow everything seemed to run remarkably smoothly anyway.

I took from it that Daoshen wants Danai to be competent enough for Successor State governance, but she simply is not there yet so he is now pushing it. She needs to become Capellan. By contrast Nikol had been involved in top level governance since the reunification of the League (Minister-General is a top-level position, if not a military one), Yori had been doing so behind the scenes. Julian and Trillian have been thrust into such positions, and only time will tell how they will govern.

[tassa_kay]

One of the reasons I started this thread is because I just read Blood Will Tell last week and it left me thinking about the fact that Daoshen has an honest to goodness god complex and yet somehow everything seemed to run remarkably smoothly anyway.

Hardly an outlier. We've had Mad Max, Kalvin, Romano... the Capellan state has survived a LOT worse than Daoshen, who despite his god complex is actually competent at his job (as he was competent as a military leader before his ascension). It's almost as if they have centuries of experience in functioning despite the mental faculties of the Celestial Wisdom. Plus I'm sure Daoshen delegates as much as the next House Lord, as it wouldn't do for a god to get his hands too dirty with the tedium of running the state too directly.

I'm also surprised that no one's mentioned the Maskirovka's pervasive presence and lethal effectiveness when asking the question "why haven't the Capellans suffered more internal strife?" I mean, it seems pretty logical to me that, besides all of the other supported-by-canon reasons why the Capellans are as united as they are, a leader who decides he or she might know better than the Celestial Wisdom would find themselves disappeared... or even made a public example. And on a larger scale, one can always point to St. Ives or the second Sarna Supremacy to see what happens when one breaks with the Greater Humanity.

Most of the questions in this thread are answered pretty thoroughly in Handbook: House Liao, just FYI.

[butchbird]

One thing that stood out in the way Sun-Tzu handled capellan inner politics was his constistency in seeking to divide his "inner circle". This COULD be linked to a certain paranoia, but it could also point out to how the different branches of the capellan system used to be constantly vying for greater influence whithin the confederation before the 4th SW, and this was still fresh on the celestial wisdom's mind.

It could be argued that the fact citizenship is actually something you ACQUIRE and hence has a lot of symbolic importance attached to it, coupled with the korvin doctrine (which in its contemporary form feels much like "everything within the state, nothing outside the state") and the state of constant desperation for survival in the face of bigger opposition then themselves makes the CC less subjected to armed conflict beyond coups. But political intrigues with aims other then simply toppling the top dog
can still be a thing.

Now as a few have pointed out, the 4th SW was rife with treachery and power grabs. St-Ives, the Tikovox Free Republic...but also the Northwind Highlanders, now that was one huge chunk. The gutting the CC suffered would, it is rather safe to assume, leave all powers save that of dear pugnacious Romano in a state of shock. Hence, after the 4th SW, CC inner politics are rather...tame.

But before Romano's time, things were far more interesting. Maximilian's rise to power of course, around which much "higher up" blood was shed and many of the higher offices changed hands. But in a broader sense, it is quite clear the few main branches of the state (Chancellor, CCAF, Warrior House, Death Commandos, Maskirovka, Prefecture and House of Scions) all had a knife at each others throats. Check and balance the Capellan way, if you will.

Of course, the CCAF stands out with Pavel Ridzik (whom WOULD make a power grab as it turned out), but there must hjave been much friction elsewhere. The maskirovka was lead by an ambitious woman who longed for the bygone days where her family held much sway over the fortunes of the capellan state and she had one of her agents posted as the "closest thing to a friend" to Maximilian.

Said "closest thing to a friend" (also known as Dolman Kavajk) was portrayed as constantly seeking to weaken House Master Karl Yadi, whom obviously believes he should be ready to militarly oppose Maximilian if such an opportunity arises.

Then there is the prefecture. While the chancellor sits at that office, he is more or less openly opposed (if we look at 3025) by at least 2 of the other members of this small body. We know how Candace was at odds with her father, at the very least in the economical sphere, and then there is Lord Hargreaves who even dared to oppose Maximilian taking the chancellorship from his father. Some of those meetings must've been explosive.

And of course the house of scions. While their temopral power is limited, being there (aside for budgetary concerns) mainly to point out things for the prefectorate and the chancellor to take notice, around 3025 there was at least Lord Hargreaves creating some turmoil, and we know that in the past the house of scions has had a lot of weight in policy making...weren't they responsible for the appointment of Kalvin Liao or another of those less palatable chancellor's?

[Minemech]

Deleted

[BrianDavion]

Now as a few have pointed out, the 4th SW was rife with treachery and power grabs. St-Ives, the Tikovox Free Republic...but also the Northwind Highlanders, now that was one huge chunk. The gutting the CC suffered would, it is rather safe to assume, leave all powers save that of dear pugnacious Romano in a state of shock. Hence, after the 4th SW, CC inner politics are rather...tame.

But before Romano's time, things were far more interesting. Maximilian's rise to power of course, around which much "higher up" blood was shed and many of the higher offices changed hands. But in a broader sense, it is quite clear the few main branches of the state (Chancellor, CCAF, Warrior House, Death Commandos, Maskirovka, Prefecture and House of Scions) all had a knife at each others throats. Check and balance the Capellan way, if you will.

Of course, the CCAF stands out with Pavel Ridzik (whom WOULD make a power grab as it turned out), but there must hjave been much friction elsewhere. The maskirovka was lead by an ambitious woman who longed for the bygone days where her family held much sway over the fortunes of the capellan state and she had one of her agents posted as the "closest thing to a friend" to Maximilian.

Said "closest thing to a friend" (also known as Dolman Kavajk) was portrayed as constantly seeking to weaken House Master Karl Yadi, whom obviously believes he should be ready to militarly oppose Maximilian if such an opportunity arises.

Then there is the prefecture. While the chancellor sits at that office, he is more or less openly opposed (if we look at 3025) by at least 2 of the other members of this small body. We know how Candace was at odds with her father, at the very least in the economical sphere, and then there is Lord Hargreaves who even dared to oppose Maximilian taking the chancellorship from his father. Some of those meetings must've been explosive.

And of course the house of scions. While their temopral power is limited, being there (aside for budgetary concerns) mainly to point out things for the prefectorate and the chancellor to take notice, around 3025 there was at least Lord Hargreaves creating some turmoil, and we know that in the past the house of scions has had a lot of weight in policy making...weren't they responsible for the appointment of Kalvin Liao or another of those less palatable chancellor's?

which is intreasting, sadly this has been forgotten as the capcon has been flanderingized into a boring dull "chinese facism" state, with no real internal issues

[OatsAndHall]

On another note, Sun-Tzu may have been the shrewdest politician in the IS, over that period.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Low bar.

[OatsAndHall]

Low bar.

Fair point. However, he did learn from the mistakes his grandfather and mother made and didn't repeat them. IMO, another bat-shit crazy Chancellor might have been enough to send the CC over the rails.

[BrianDavion]

On another note, Sun-Tzu may have been the shrewdest politician in the IS, over that period.

That's like saying Alaric Ward was the most gifted military stratagist on Terra

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That's like saying Alaric Ward was the most gifted military stratagist on Terra

Or that Galen Cox was the tallest person in the room when the only others in it were Victor and Kai.

[BrianDavion]

Or that Galen Cox was the tallest person in the room when the only others in it were Victor and Kai.

Well Alaric Ward was specificly used because much like STL he was only brilliant because everyone else was written stupidly when fighting him

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Well Alaric Ward was specificly used because much like STL he was only brilliant because everyone else was written stupidly when fighting him

And Galen Cox was not a person of particularly impressive stature, he just hung around the two shortest protagonists in the entire BTU.

[Metallgewitter]

On another note, Sun-Tzu may have been the shrewdest politician in the IS, over that period.

Until he met Devlin Stone and was humiliated thoroughly. The Confederation at the end of the Jihad was taken down a peg and only with the Dark Age the realm rose again

[tassa_kay]

Until he met Devlin Stone and was humiliated thoroughly. The Confederation at the end of the Jihad was taken down a peg and only with the Dark Age the realm rose again

Gonna have to disagree there. Sun-Tzu being a shrewd politician and him being unable to defeat the Republic are not mutually exclusive.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't recall Sun-Tzu being thoroughly humbled by Stone.  Though I haven't read any of those books in about a decade.

[BrianDavion]

Gonna have to disagree there. Sun-Tzu being a shrewd politician and him being unable to defeat the Republic are not mutually exclusive.

I dunno, during the Jihad STL did refuse to join the coalition and thus was a result arguably "lost the peace" by not having any influence with the nascient ROTS.

[tassa_kay]

I dunno, during the Jihad STL did refuse to join the coalition and thus was a result arguably "lost the peace" by not having any influence with the nascient ROTS.

I wouldn't say that Sun-Tzu "lost the peace". Thanks to him NOT getting in bed with Stone like everyone else, he was able to stockpile war material a lot easier, and we saw the dividends that ended up paying. From the Capellan perspective, for a multitude of reasons, Sun-Tzu made absolutely the correct choice not to suborn himself to Stone. And ultimately it did indeed pay off: the CCAF was made stronger than ever (and kept sharp thanks to their conflicts with the Republic), all of the lost Capellan worlds (and other worlds besides) were restored to the CapCon, and the Republic itself is now a footnote in history. Sun-Tzu definitely had the last laugh.

[Metallgewitter]

The Capellans preserved their manpowerr before the Jihad by nuking first and ask questions later. Not exactly the best way to prepare for future fights. Also I would say loosing the planet Liao which was NOT a Republic possesion after the Jihad does sound rather humiliating. And they lost their Crusade against a then weakened Republic when one old Mechwarrior who was already dying wrecked havoc behind the lines. Heck it nearly cost Sun Tzu his one heir. Though I agree it made the Confederation stronger in the end but without Gray Monday we will never know how a 3rd round would have looked like. Then again the Republic had drawn down their military so much it might have been more leaning in the Confederations favor. But who is to say the Confederation will come out alive in the end? The Star League needs it's bogeyman and the Capellans are the perfect target

[tassa_kay]

The Capellans preserved their manpowerr before the Jihad by nuking first and ask questions later. Not exactly the best way to prepare for future fights.

You're missing the point entirely. The Capellans were able to squirrel away more of their pre-Republic war material because they didn't work with Stone, who we know sent forces into the other Houses to ensure they were complying with the drawdowns.

Also I would say loosing the planet Liao which was NOT a Republic possesion after the Jihad does sound rather humiliating. And they lost their Crusade against a then weakened Republic when one old Mechwarrior who was already dying wrecked havoc behind the lines. Heck it nearly cost Sun Tzu his one heir.

And again: Sun-Tzu being a shrewd political leader (unequivocally true) and Sun-Tzu unable to defeat the Republic (also true) aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Clever/shrewd people can still lose, and it doesn't take those qualities away from them when they do.

Though I agree it made the Confederation stronger in the end but without Gray Monday we will never know how a 3rd round would have looked like. Then again the Republic had drawn down their military so much it might have been more leaning in the Confederations favor.

Irrelevant, since it didn't happen.

But who is to say the Confederation will come out alive in the end? The Star League needs it's bogeyman and the Capellans are the perfect target

Also irrelevant, since Sun-Tzu is dead.

[Minemech]

 The current problem for the era is that it is genuinely in everyone's interests to annihilate the ilClan. You can claim that Julietta has gone a bit moonstruck herself, but she should not represent the norm. Capellan shenanigans are known Inner Sphere wide as is the fact that they are going for Terra. 

[BrianDavion]

The current problem for the era is that it is genuinely in everyone's interests to annihilate the ilClan.

Ok, why? Why if I was ruling the fedsuns, or the LC or the FWL would attacking terra be in my best intrests? Sure for the LC or FWL attacking the Wolf EMPIRE is in their best intrests  but that's because "massivly undefended territory that could be used to boot strap invasions of their territory if left alone" for say the fedsuns, there isn't much reason to attack at all. let the wolves and capellans beat each other senseless and then pounce on the winner

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Ok, why? Why if I was ruling the fedsuns, or the LC or the FWL would attacking terra be in my best intrests? Sure for the LC or FWL attacking the Wolf EMPIRE is in their best intrests  but that's because "massivly undefended territory that could be used to boot strap invasions of their territory if left alone"

And also because there are factories there that have been tooled to produce full Clantech war materials, so taking and holding those is extremely valuable.

[BrianDavion]

And also because there are factories there that have been tooled to produce full Clantech war materials, so taking and holding those is extremely valuable.

true that.

[Minemech]

 Apply your logic to Genghis Khan and the Mongols and the reason should follow. That said these are Successor States, who said ensuring that Terra falls precludes gobbling up the Empire?

[MadCapellan]

Kill the Wolf in the cradle or wait for it to grow back into a ravenous beast that threatens the entire Inner Sphere? Yes, I'd sat attacking Terra at this juncture is in the interest of all Inner Sphere factions, they might just not realize it until they are suffering the consequences.

[Metallgewitter]

So going to the topic I just have a question: does the Confederation have a society / group that is opposed to the way the Liao's rules?
Let's take a look:
The Combine has the Black Dragon society (including the council of gems), The Commonwealth and the Federated Suns had movements for "pure" bloodlines while the Commonwealth also had separatist movements. The Free Worlds League probably doesn't need any mention civil strife seems to be baked into it, most extreme might be the Regulans or even the old Scourge movement. But did House Liao have something homegrown? You could say Free Capella but that was more a pet project from Hanse Davion

[AlphaMirage]

Free Capella wasn't even necessary a Hanse project, it was definitely something that was allowed to exist in the Commonwealth however, and I associate it more with organized crime as 'charity.' It is not like Tormano didn't have his own designs, he did after all nearly cause a war with it using Peter SD.

As for an anti-Liao movement, I think the secret police were probably very effective in handling those.
The only times I can think of political instability is between Liao, not necessarily Anti-Liao, and there are some instances where that boils over and creates havoc although the most recent instance of that is the well known three-way conflict between Maximillian's kids. Its always a shadow war though a major civil war would likely mortally wound the Capellan Confederation and make it weak enough that someone might try to take over (like they did in my Fanfic).

[butchbird]

Again going back in time...

But judging by the way the Sarna People's Front organized itself to become quite influencial in so very little time following the 4th SW, I'd wager there was already some form of "sarnese independantist" organization within the CC before the 4th SW. This is pure speculation, of course, but then such groups don't tend to sprout out from nowhere.

Another example that I'll dust off (while I'm at it) is Gabriel Quinn, for she makes an interesting case study. A highly decorated mechwarrior, a fall from grace saw her narrowly saved by Tormano Liao from imprisonment and quite possibly death. Now while she IS linked to tormano altough she does not seem to be actually genueinly part of his small personnal power base, she IS described as recruiting anti-liaoists for future projects, notably to have some of Maximilian's relations take dirt naps.

This is all old and dusty stuff, but interesting to consider nonetheless.

[BrianDavion]

Again going back in time...

But judging by the way the Sarna People's Front organized itself to become quite influencial in so very little time following the 4th SW, I'd wager there was already some form of "sarnese independantist" organization within the CC before the 4th SW. This is pure speculation, of course, but then such groups don't tend to sprout out from nowhere.

Another example that I'll dust off (while I'm at it) is Gabriel Quinn, for she makes an interesting case study. A highly decorated mechwarrior, a fall from grace saw her narrowly saved by Tormano Liao from imprisonment and quite possibly death. Now while she IS linked to tormano altough she does not seem to be actually genueinly part of his small personnal power base, she IS described as recruiting anti-liaoists for future projects, notably to have some of Maximilian's relations take dirt naps.

This is all old and dusty stuff, but interesting to consider nonetheless.

and all ignored and forgotten about as part of the whole "isn't STL wonderful" crap they started pushing, I mean when Free Capella went loyalist I basicly gave up

[Angrii]

So going to the topic I just have a question: does the Confederation have a society / group that is opposed to the way the Liao's rules?
Let's take a look:
The Combine has the Black Dragon society (including the council of gems), The Commonwealth and the Federated Suns had movements for "pure" bloodlines while the Commonwealth also had separatist movements. The Free Worlds League probably doesn't need any mention civil strife seems to be baked into it, most extreme might be the Regulans or even the old Scourge movement. But did House Liao have something homegrown? You could say Free Capella but that was more a pet project from Hanse Davion

The Warrior Houses have, on occasion, been detractors of the Celestial Wisdom despite their supposed loyalty to his or her person above all else. Imarra and Lu Sann in particular have made moves against the incumbent when they felt their actions were detrimental to the state. Ion Rush was instrumental in deposing Romano by helping Candace assassinate her.

Brings to mind the Roman Praetorians, in a way.

[butchbird]

and all ignored and forgotten about as part of the whole "isn't STL wonderful" crap they started pushing, I mean when Free Capella went loyalist I basicly gave up

While I fully understand your point of view, the way things evolved is nonetheless logical (up to a certain point...I'm not knowleadgeable enough on Daoshen's rule to comment past the jihad).

The confederation was effectively gutted inside and out by the 4th SW. Big chunks of the state turned traitor and all the inner powers within the confederation were neutered...save for the chancellor's office, thanks to Romano's character.

The "check and balance" system that had ruled over the inner politics of the CC for its entire history was effectively shattered, a kind of shattering that can easily take decades to recover from if the conjecture allows it. But the conjecture did not.

Think what you will of STL, but the Xin Sheng movement was a master stroke that enabled him, coupled with a certain liberalization of the system, to keep things running mostly as they had under his mother. Making sure no one managed to form new power blocks was just a formality from there on.

As for Free Capella, with Tormano's line eliminated and the jihad in full swing, the way it dissolved and rejoined the state isn't necessarily far fetched.

Now I'm somewhat loathe to say this, but I pretty much agree that this evolution of Capellan politics, while very interesting in its unfolding, is somewhat disapointing in terms of "offering to the lore enthusiast"...it can be argued that, somewhere along the way, the Capellan state lost its soul. To me, the whole "thuggee buisness", which is all that's left on any "inner political haggling" that was once the norm, just doesn't cut it. I'd like to support my point by making relations to china's evolution since the death of Sun Yat-Sen but I'm not sure I could stay clear of the dreaded (but, I suppose, necessary in our time)"rule number 4" as some things are rather fresh in terms of history. Suffice to say that while the triads were initially of importance following Sun's death, they quickly where pushed out of any important role with the unfolding of events, as it should be in any major power.

But then, for all this, I point back to Gabriel Quinn. Such individuals and the small grass root movements they head could easily still be at work whithin the confederation. Heck, I couldn't believe it isn't the case. But these are but small fringe movements, irrelevant to most battletech fiction and sourcebooks.

[BrianDavion]

Honestly Xin Sheng occuring without any political resistance is the most unrealistic thing about battletech. I can accept giant walking combat mechs being the msot effective military combatant, FTL travel, and all sorts of iother things, but the idea that a ruler can impliment MASSIVE and huge reforms to a state, and that everyone, EVERYONE will not only go along with them, but love him for them, that breaks suspension of disbelief.

[Metallgewitter]

Honestly Xin Sheng occuring without any political resistance is the most unrealistic thing about battletech. I can accept giant walking combat mechs being the msot effective military combatant, FTL travel, and all sorts of iother things, but the idea that a ruler can impliment MASSIVE and huge reforms to a state, and that everyone, EVERYONE will not only go along with them, but love him for them, that breaks suspension of disbelief.

Best explanation would probably be that Romano Liao was the previous ruler and anyone looks sane compared to her. Of course Romano's rulership for all the brutality it had saved the Confederation from collapsing. Though I also find it somewhat strange how Sun Tzu was able to basically reform the entire appartatus and nobody cared. For example Theodore breathed new life into the Black Dragon society with his reforms despite all their successes and Thomas Marik had to navigate a labyrinth of political actions just to try to get a stronger central state and military

[BrianDavion]

exactly, as I said realisticly that doesn't happen. The Black Dragon's rise was, from a socio-political prespective, pretty logical. Any time political reform happens it will be inevitably be resisted because the current system works for someone.

[Metallgewitter]

exactly, as I said realisticly that doesn't happen. The Black Dragon's rise was, from a socio-political prespective, pretty logical. Any time political reform happens it will be inevitably be resisted because the current system works for someone.

the only explanation I would have is what Candace said to Sun-Tzu after she had killed his parents "In the confederation your word is the law". When you have a nation that has been indoctrinated into following it's leader without question you might get less backlash. But then we come again into the Mary Sue territory. Sun Tzu often felt like a Mary Sue in his actions. Like attacking a memberstate of the LEague and even having bio weapons deployed (yes that was his sister but come one. No repercussion beyond a "keep your sister in check?"). Or making the Taurian Concordat his puppet without so much of a "no thank you"?

[BrianDavion]

It really did, one or two of those things was fine but by the end of the FCCW it had gotten to the point of absurd

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The way in which he broke off his engagement to Isis Marik and somehow didn't kick off an international incident was absurd.

[butchbird]

On Xin Sheng...

Where COULD the backlash come from? All levels and offices of the capellan political apparatus were thoroughly under the thumb of Romano, opportunitys to organize any form of resistance was completely curtailed before Sun Tzu's rule. They were in no position to lash back when xin sheng came.

The mask? Sun Tzu's father was responsible for it before his rule, then an aging bureaucrat, with very little to gain from any sort of opposition, was named in his stead. Now yes, there was a rogue director with a short tenure, but thats the point, she was offed before she could become a threat.

The CCAF? With the reforms during Romano's reign, any possibility for a high level officer to form a personnal power block was basically curtailed.

The Warrior Houses? Ion Rush was a "suntzuist" from the start.

The prefecture and the house of scions? I don't remember anything much interesting about them during Sun Tzu's rule but its safe to assume they were in too precarious a position following the 4th SW to become a threat to the chancellor's position and wouldn't really have the time to organize themselves to become one in the short time span between Romano's assassination and the start of the Xin Sheng movement.

The nobility? A probably very large part of the nobility could do no other then keep their opposition to themselves less they be visited by the tax collector for years of neglecting their economical duties to the state (tax collecting, or lack thereoff, on the nobles in the confederation is as much a political tool as anything else).

And never forget how a fad can take the world by storm. If its well sold to the people and that there are no alternatives (for much if not all of the media consumed whithin the confederation is state sponsored), it would actually be rather easy to pass it with stunning approval.

The people? History teaches that the masses rarely lash back at liberalization (for, besides the whole "Han Pride" aspect of Xin SHeng, from what I remember of Sun Tzu's reforms, it was pretty much that: liberalisation of the socio-economic aspects of the state) when under a "totalitarian regime" (well...actually I'd say never, can't think of an example on the spot).

And as for "the current system working for someone", just whom benefitted from the romanoist system, besides Romano herself (and perhaps her thuggee supporters, whom weren't that much of a thing as yet back then)?

So pray tell, where could opposition to Xin Sheng come from? The thuggees? Now THAT would be confounding in disbelief (hope I'm using "confounding" rightly, but you get the point).

*Add-on*

Okay, an example of "the people" revolting against liberalization. So there was the Vendée during the french revolution, but much of their support was as much if not more due to distinct cultural aspects of the Breton people compared to the rest of France as anything else. Now the CC DOES have regions with cultural differences from the "norm", but they hadn't been re-absorbed by the time Xin Sheng kicked in.

*Another Add-On*

Again with "revolting against liberalization", this time in Spain. Now I don't remember all the specifics, but when the liberals enacted their reform forcing the church to sell off their "common lands" and instead of creating a middle-class like they thought and instead favorised big landowners (inevitably igniting the traditionalist, or Carlist movement ), the fact was that this was a VERY BADLY EXECUTED reform. Mary-sues don't enact bad reforms.

[BrianDavion]

And as for "the current system working for someone", just whom benefitted from the romanoist system, besides Romano herself (and perhaps her thuggee supporters, whom weren't that much of a thing as yet back then)?

So pray tell, where could opposition to Xin Sheng come from? The thuggees? Now THAT would be confounding in disbelief (hope I'm using "confounding" rightly, but you get the point).

Except SunTzu Liao didn't just "change how things where under his mother" (although keep in mind there are people who will rise to the top, or a comfortable position in any system who won't like change) STL did numerous things, just off the top of my head he changed the ranking system of the military, he changed the FLAG (and given he replaced the Katana with a Dao he basicly threw out an important family symbol "cause we need to be chinese!") he also implimented safe guards for servitors, which would certainly upset some people (one only need to look to the history of american civil war to see what happens when you tell people they can't abuse a opressed population as badly anymore)
Hell we saw in one of the sourcebooks (wanna say the sourcebook titled "inner sphere" but it might have been "shattered sphere") it mention that the capcon in the 3060s was developing a racism problem.

[butchbird]

Well, I reckon the changes in the rank structure of the CCAF would probably be well received. Not really feeling like wiping out a book comparing the old and new ranks, but I'm pretty sure there are more after STL then before, which means more pay grades...and I'd be surprised senior colonels would frown on being recognized as "true generals".

The flag...I don't really understand how that would be such a big deal. Now while the katana points back to an interesting character in history (at least I suppose...that's a nod to Franco Liao, right?). Might be a cultural difference, but to me, a flag is just a flag, as long as no one uses it as a door mat or somesuch degrading symbolism. Heck, there's a couple of flags my people have flown that I'd rather be our official one rather then the current one. While I'm at it, the one FASA made up for crimson skies was kinda neater too.

So those are mostly minor cosmetic changes. There's a symbolic, sure, but nothing worth fighting over, and like I said, there's clear advantages (pay grades!) with some of those minor changes.

Get the point on servitors, but then those sort of changes can take time to be fully implemented. I mean, look at all the ruckuss over slavery during the Vienna Congress of 1815, and most of those whom acknowledged the principles laid forward dragged things well into the mid 19th century. What's more, while it's true we don't exactly know upo to what point servitors benefit the capellan economy, it is doubtfull their impact is as big as it was in certain states before the american civil war... So good point, but we don't really have evidence it would be a critical one. Besides, it probably also ties in with "nobility tax collecting" anyway.

Catch my interest with the racism problem...sifted through shattered sphere, found nothing on the subject unfortunately, guess somebody else could perhaps fill us in more thouroughly?

But something did catch my eye in shattered sphere: It seems anti-liaoist agitators were very active on some poorer world before the benefits of Xin Sheng started touching the masses. Can't argue against good infrastructure .