Determining the Range of Elevated VTOLs Clarification

[Gian]

Hello, I need clarification about attacking VTOLs because some of our members are using mixed forces (mechs, vehicles, VTOLs, infantry)

On page 36 of the ASCE, the rule says:

"A unit with an elevation (from VTOL and WiGE movement, for example) is considered physically at that distance above the play area for all purposes. These units are usually left represented on the “ground” level, but for all game purposes the miniature, including base, is considered to be a number of inches above the ground equal to its elevation."

So this is an actual example that happened in gameplay: my opponent decided to elevate his VTOL to its maximum Movement at 26 inches (physically 13 inches from the ground).

My ground-based mech's hex base is 10 inches away from his VTOL's hex base base.

Do I measure just the elevation at 26 inches (i.e., like the long side of a right triangle) and disregard the 10-inch distance from my mech's hex base to his VTOL's hex base?

Or do I add the 10 inches and the 26 inches together (i.e. right angle)?

Please advise. Thanks!

[Charistoph]

Hello, I need clarification about attacking VTOLs because some of our members are using mixed forces (mechs, vehicles, VTOLs, infantry)

On page 36 of the ASCE, the rule says:

"A unit with an elevation (from VTOL and WiGE movement, for example) is considered physically at that distance above the play area for all purposes. These units are usually left represented on the “ground” level, but for all game purposes the miniature, including base, is considered to be a number of inches above the ground equal to its elevation."

So this is an actual example that happened in gameplay: my opponent decided to elevate his VTOL to its maximum Movement at 26 inches (physically 13 inches from the ground).

My ground-based mech's hex base is 10 inches away from his VTOL's hex base base.

Do I measure just the elevation at 26 inches (i.e., like the long side of a right triangle) and disregard the 10-inch distance from my mech's hex base to his VTOL's hex base?

Or do I add the 10 inches and the 26 inches together (i.e. right angle)?

Please advise. Thanks!

VTOLs aren't like Fighters whose Atltitude affects range.  You don't add the inches up the hill to the range, you go directly to the target.

So you go by the first part of the statement in that its Range is where it is "on the ground".

The latter part is for purposes of visibility, LOS, and its Movement around potential obstacles like Woods.

[MetalEd]

Yep.  Ranges are always measured horizontally in one dimension.  So your 'mech is 10" away from the VTOL in your example, no matter what height the VTOL is at.

[phantom16]

Does that mean that units could melee (or even short-range attack) VTOLs if the bases are touching, even if the helicopter is at something ridiculous like 100 inches above the table?
FWIW, even in Mechwarrior 5, the VTOLs fly at a reasonable height it seems, and you can't get close to hitting them at all. Maybe with a jumping firestarter you can get within flamer range, but I don't see why one should be able to punch a flying VTOL unless it's parked. Seems a little silly to me.

[nckestrel]

No, there are specific exceptions for melee attacks and area effects.

[phantom16]

That makes sense. Where is that listed? Because I didn't see anything in my CE (3ed) or the errata. I may have just overlooked it though.

Adding onto this now that I have been thinking about it. I suppose this lines up with the errata for range being that you just check the horizontal different and not true base-to-base anymore. I suppose this is to simplify things? Does that also mean that a mech standing on a 10" tall building, but horizontally only 2" away from a mech beside the building are in close range of each other?
Going back to the VTOL that is 100" above the table, does that also mean that a mech within 6" of the base can shoot close range at my VTOL that is basically flying above the clouds?
There's something addressing this for Melee physical attacks I see, but not quite seeing anything for close range attacks separated by vast vertical differences (or physical vs flying VTOL).

[phantom16]

Adding onto this again since I have seen https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,83366.0.html
Seems like something is missing. I see the exemption for Melee (MEL) attacks [from the errata] and AoE attacks, but this doesn't seem to apply for standard physical attacks. If I am understanding RAW, 2 mechs within 1" of a VTOL at 100", one with MEL and 1 without, the one with MEL would be 1" + 100" = 101, so obviously outside range, but the only-physical attacker would be within 1" horizontally and able to hit, since there's no rule about adding vertical distance to a standard physical attack.
This also seems to lead to a situation where a mech on top of a 10" building with 2 mechs 1 inch away at the bottom of the building would be in the same predicament. The MEL attacker would add 10+1 and be outside melee range, but the normal physical attacker would only be 1" away horizontally and able to hit.

The obvious solution is to also add vertical distance for standard physical attacks and not just MEL attacks. No way we're not at least house ruling that for now because in no way should a physical attacker be able to hit a VTOL or mech standing on a tall building while a mech with an axe wouldn't be able to reach it lol.

Side note: charging and DFA are clear since it says it has to be in base-to-base contact. I suppose I can also just accept that short range attacks hit really high units for simplicity's sake (as I guess one could argue the vertical scale is inconsequential for gun-range brackets).

[Cannonshop]

Adding onto this again since I have seen https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,83366.0.html
Seems like something is missing. I see the exemption for Melee (MEL) attacks [from the errata] and AoE attacks, but this doesn't seem to apply for standard physical attacks. If I am understanding RAW, 2 mechs within 1" of a VTOL at 100", one with MEL and 1 without, the one with MEL would be 1" + 100" = 101, so obviously outside range, but the only-physical attacker would be within 1" horizontally and able to hit, since there's no rule about adding vertical distance to a standard physical attack.
This also seems to lead to a situation where a mech on top of a 10" building with 2 mechs 1 inch away at the bottom of the building would be in the same predicament. The MEL attacker would add 10+1 and be outside melee range, but the normal physical attacker would only be 1" away horizontally and able to hit.

The obvious solution is to also add vertical distance for standard physical attacks and not just MEL attacks. No way we're not at least house ruling that for now because in no way should a physical attacker be able to hit a VTOL or mech standing on a tall building while a mech with an axe wouldn't be able to reach it lol.

Side note: charging and DFA are clear since it says it has to be in base-to-base contact. I suppose I can also just accept that short range attacks hit really high units for simplicity's sake (as I guess one could argue the vertical scale is inconsequential for gun-range brackets).

I'm sitting here trying to figure out how a physical attack (Kick, punch, push, charge, DFA) isn't a Melee attack now.  I clearly need to play more Alpha-Strike and less standard Battletech.

In Standard Battletech, your machine gun squad at one hex range can totally grease a VTOL flying at any elevation you want to spend the MP to reach.

They just can't swarm it.  Likewise a Piranha (10? 12? machineguns?) can grease a VTOL at absurd elevation that it can't reach with its hands, provided the horizontal range is short enough.

Further, Bob's Tinfoil-Hawk (SHD2D) standing on an elevation 60 building (don't ask how he got there) isn't safe from Steve's small laser when Steve's standing one inch/hex from the base of the structure (and horizontally, from bob) but he IS safe from being pushed, punched, kicked, or charged, or hit with an axe.

Remembering the basic INTENT of Alpha Strike, slant ranges aren't calculated because they're a huge pain in the ass, just like in regular Battletech, and nobody's been able to come up with a simple way to do it-so all range is calculated based solely on horizontal distance for everything except melee (Punches, kicks, pushes/shoves, charges, and melee weapons.)

including weapons with range=pathetic like Heavy Machineguns, Bearhunters, small pulse lasers, infantry rifles, shotguns...etc. etc.

Since Alpha Strike was intended to make bigger games simpler, rather than more complex?  I imagine you're reading right, and your house rule is consistent with the intent.

but I could be wrong.

[Charistoph]

I'm sitting here trying to figure out how a physical attack (Kick, punch, push, charge, DFA) isn't a Melee attack now.  I clearly need to play more Alpha-Strike and less standard Battletech.

A Physical Attack is the equivalent of a Punch or a Kick, and at base to 1".

Melee Attack is the equivalent of a Hatchet, requiring MEL Special, and goes from base to 2".

Charges and DFAs are their own thing.

[Cannonshop]

A Physical Attack is the equivalent of a Punch or a Kick, and at base to 1".

Melee Attack is the equivalent of a Hatchet, requiring MEL Special, and goes from base to 2".

Charges and DFAs are their own thing.

The point being that if a VTOL unit is THAT high off the ground, I'm left wondering how anything could reach it to punch or kick in the first place, as the poster I was replying to also apparently wondered.  weapons fire? absolutely, the horizontal-only range calculation can be explained with targeting and it's a ranged attack (though not much range), there is either an energy beam or a projectile involved.

but fists and feet and hands and...

eh, whatever.  As I said, I think the terminology must have some difference, if you can perpetrate a physical attack (without reach-extending special equipment) at something 112 meters above you using a ten meter tall robot whose arm is MAYBE another six meters long all told.

without using projectile or energy weapons instead.

(Even a melee weapon's going to extend that reach, at least if it's configured like a Hatchetman's Hatchet or those nifty bonus-size swords the Kuritans like....but it's not allowed.)

Meaning Phantom16's "House Rule" is likely the correct interpretation and it's a typographic error in the printing of the rules...unless they're positing that fists and feet are separable and rocket powered or something.

[Charistoph]

Sounds more like a submission to Errata.  It can be easily inferred that since it affects MEL Attacks, it should apply to the shorter-ranged Physical as well, but we all know those people who will take every advantage they can get so "lawyer" it as different.

[Cannonshop]

Sounds more like a submission to Errata.  It can be easily inferred that since it affects MEL Attacks, it should apply to the shorter-ranged Physical as well, but we all know those people who will take every advantage they can get so "lawyer" it as different.

Oh, I quite agree.  What tickles my curiousity, is why there's a difference in the first place.  All the physical attacks and melee attacks have roughly the same required pre-conditions (except maybe DFA), in that at the moment of impact, you've got to be standing in the other guy's boots for range-as in close enough that it's hard to miss with a  smoothbore musket, aka practically in physical contact and so on.

There aren't any Melee weapons with a stand-off distance, if you can whack with an Axe or Mace, you can kick or punch, or push, or shove.

I suppose DFA might, but it's got its own requirements that aren't the same as the others, and I'd suppose jumping distance might also be a problem.  (I'm not altogether together on that, but ISTR there's actually a vertical distance as well as horizontal, though I could be mistaken).

but given that's the only really reasonable possible exception (if it even is), maybe it should have been listed as The exception?

[Lanceman]

,
There aren't any Melee weapons with a stand-off distance, if you can whack with an Axe or Mace, you can kick or punch, or push, or shove.

This is not true in Alpha Strike. The Melee Special Ability (MEL) conveyed by handheld weapons is separate from a physical attack and allows a unit to make an attack within 2 inches of a target. Physical attacks (what you'd think of as kicks and punches in classic) have a range of one inch or less.