Best INTRO tech MEDIUM mech in 3025

[Hellraiser]

I chosen 15 of my favorite variants out of the many available.

But I'm curious what you all think are the BEST intro tech mediums.

I've given everyone 3 votes so we can get a good look at where the most common choices will be.

If you feel I've missed out on a hidden gem then choose Other & tell us what & why.

Also, remember, this is Intro Tech in 3025 so some of those later arrivals (Cronus) aren't available.

[Frabby]

The Phoenix Hawk epitomizes everything that is good about medium BattleMechs for me. Thus I've chosen the PXH-1D from your list. But truth be told, it's not an improvement over the regular PXH-1 version - in my eyes, the MGs amount to a heat neutral pair of crit seekers.

The 6M Wolverine is a close second, though it is a really wannabe heavy. And if you‘re not fighting in a phone booth, the standard 1N Griffin is a fearsome machine. Somehow I never liked the 1S, though it looks good on paper.

[Hellraiser]

The Phoenix Hawk epitomizes everything that is good about medium BattleMechs for me. Thus I've chosen the PXH-1D from your list. But truth be told, it's not an improvement over the regular PXH-1 version - in my eyes, the MGs amount to a heat neutral pair of crit seekers.

Thanks for the input!

You'll notice I have the Vulcan-5T on there which is similar & is what I use when I want some MG (or Flamer) love added to the Laser Party.


It & the Griffin-1S are my favorites in their respective tonnage brackets.

[Firesprocket]

While the Wolverine or Gladiator are the best all around unit, I voted for the Hermes II.  7/11 with a PB damage potential of 20 points with solid armor protection.  It is easy to overlook because the primary design is so underwhelming.

[Daryk]

The Marik Wolverine is hands down the best 3025 medium.  It's perfectly heat tuned to jump and alpha, then jump and cool off.

I also threw in a vote for the Vindicator.  Those things had a reputation for indestructibility back in college.

[Paul]

The Dervish always surprises people, in my experience. It has some significant flaws, but 5jj and 2lrm10s is a problem many 3025 mechs dont have a good answer for. Its backup firepower is decent enough that you can switch tactics against Mechs like the Griffin.

[Sharpnel]

I went  with the Gladiator as it has the long range powerful PPC and is backed by the SRN6 and the brace of medium laser for when you get too close to the enemy and are inside the Peeper's minimum range. Throw in the jumpers and decent armor and you got the champ

[Simon Landmine]

You appear to have inexplicably missed off the Shadow Hawk!

[giggles, ducks, and jumps away (but not quite far enough)]

[pat_hdx]

CNS-3M. Practically as good as the 6M Wolverine, but without the small cockpit.

Honorable mention to the Sparky Griffin variant.

[massey]

The best introtech medium mech is often forgotten.  It's not any of the above.  It's the Chameleon.  50 tons, 6/9/6.  It's a Phoenix Hawk's big brother with a little more armor and an extra small laser.  And the "easy to pilot" quirk.

It's also been around since 2nd edition Battletech, so it's not a retcon-introduced mech either.

[Crimson Dawn]

I voted for the wolverine and vindicator because I seem to have a lot of good times with those.  I also voted other and i think officially I am going with the dervish because it is quite effective and very versatile (standard and inferno rounds for those SRMs please).

I want to try that vulcan it seems pretty cool.

Some other designs that I like but I guess are not as highly considered would be the blackjack (those AC 2s seem to get more luck than any other weapon system I swear and 4 medium lasers are always nasty) and the whitworth is also good in an introtech only game though I still perfer the dervish.

[Hellraiser]

CNS-3M.
Honorable mention to the Sparky Griffin variant.

Neither of which is available in 3025.

[Hellraiser]

with a little more armor and an extra small laser.

Must be a different variant that the Chameleon I remember.
Because that one had 6 Tons of Armor & 4 SL more than the Pixie.
Lack of armor is why it didn't make the cut off for top 15 listed above.

[Hellraiser]

Some other designs that I like but I guess are not as highly considered would be the blackjack (those AC 2s seem to get more luck than any other weapon system I swear and 4 medium lasers are always nasty) and the whitworth is also good in an introtech only game though I still perfer the dervish.

Believe me when I say, when trying to avoid the entirety of 3025 in my list, all 3 of those were hard to cut.
Some like the Assassin/Cicada are on there purely based on movement curve.
While the Hunchback is only on there as the only medium mech to carry an AC20 & almost didn't make the cut.

I wanted good examples of multiple options and the only reason "LRM Boat" isn't up there is I don't happen to consider "Medium/Light" to be good LRM platforms.
The Whitworth, Trebuchet, & Dervish are all how solid for what they do & I use them often.
I was shooting for 10 & found I had to go to 15 just to get in some of my favorites.

But its good to see the 16th "Open" option getting chosen & why.

PS.  That Vulcan really is a nice machine for 3025.

[Sartris]

can confirm on the vulcan. i had one in a campaign and it worked well as a light killer and gave bigger mediums pause when going toe to toe

[Cannonshop]

original basic box-set GRF-1N Griffin.  and yes, I know it has a minimum range, but if you're running it right, that's not a major problem.

[massey]

Must be a different variant that the Chameleon I remember.
Because that one had 6 Tons of Armor & 4 SL more than the Pixie.
Lack of armor is why it didn't make the cut off for top 15 listed above.

Looking at it again, you're right.  It does have less armor.  It has a full 9 points on the head, though, and that's part of what I was remembering.  And for some reason I was thinking the Phoenix Hawk had 2 small lasers and less armor.

There are two variants of the 3025 Chameleon.  The first has 4 small lasers and 6 tons of armor.  The second has 3 small lasers, only half a ton of machine gun ammo, and 7 tons of armor.  I still really like it though.

[Empyrus]

Wolverine WVR-6R. Granted, the -6M is better but i don't think the original is bad.
Griffin GRF-1N. Runs a bit hot but excellent skirmisher and ranged attacker.
While i'm not a Pixie fan, i have to admit the Phoenix Hawk PHX-1 is good recon and strike design. Good mobility, adequate armor, flexible firepower. Not so keen on the variants as they lose mobility or flexibility but they're not bad.

Honorable mention to the Blackjack BJ-1. Can't really argue with quad medium lasers... and annoying enemies at range with plinking ACs is fun.
Another honorable mention to the Whitworth for being pretty good value as fire support designs go.

[Minemech]

 An honorable mention should go to the HER-2S. It fills in many a hole during force design, and survives battles. Its armament may seem lackluster, but many a player makes a logical judgement that its armor will lead to wasted shots, so the Hermes II survives, and contributes for protracted periods of time. That flamer has come in handy at times, for use against infantry, or for the opportunistic heat mode shot. It is a handy mech, and should be respected for that.

[Calimehter]

The Marik Wolverine probably deserves to win this poll.

I voted for the Pixie D, though, as a top notch and flexible machine in its own right, and as one that pairs up quite nicely with the two most common Mechs around in 3025 . . . the Wasp and Stinger.

[Hellraiser]

FYI, 

For anyone that doesn't realize it is, my original post says you get 3 votes.

Some folks appear not to be using them all.

[Daryk]

I only voted for 2, but that was on purpose...  ^-^

[Charistoph]

It depends on how how you're defining "best intro".  For example, the Chameleon was the original training mech because it overheated very easily.  Shadow Hawk is good because you have a variety of weapons to work with with a varied range set.  These make them good for introducing proper mech control.

However, what I'd like on the battlefield...  Depend on the op, really.  A Centurion or Enforcer would do well in urban environments, but their speed could hinder them in blocky terrain that a Phoenix Hawk can just jump around.

[Hellraiser]

Your right, I didn't clarify what "Best" means.


Best at Killing armored units while surviving to Kill more of them tomorrow, in no one particular terrain or another.

[Daryk]

By that definition, the Marik Wolverine definitely wins.

[Taber_Evans]

put up  2 votes.   You do not have a Shad listed. 

[Gigastrike]

FYI, 

For anyone that doesn't realize it is, my original post says you get 3 votes.

Some folks appear not to be using them all.

Haha, yeah.  I didn't put much thought into it, either.  But, hey, the Crab is a decent enough hill to die on.

[TigerShark]

Complex question, as it also takes into account terrain and BV.

[Sartris]

i chose the first three without much conviction (except the 6M. it's beautiful)

[Colt Ward]

No Starslayer 2C?  The nerf the -3C got to be late SW compliant annoyed me . . . but the -2C was supposedly what the Big MAC was using.

[VhenRa]

No Starslayer 2C?  The nerf the -3C got to be late SW compliant annoyed me . . . but the -2C was supposedly what the Big MAC was using.

Uh... it has DHS and CASE.

[Onion2112]

I always liked the Enforcer, a Large Laser and AC/10 had great punch at moderate ranges especially against other mediums and it was easy to heat manage.

The Vindicator was similarly effective but with slightly longer range.

As mentioned before the Dervish is surprisingly good firstly in a supporting role, but has close punch if needed. although I never did like the SRM ammo in the arms.

My favored medium lance had at least 1 Dervish supporting several Enforcer types.

[Speedbump]

I went for the Wolverine-6M and Griffin-1S without hesitation as I've done well with both, then spent a while deliberating my third pick. While I'm a big fan of the Crab, I have to admit I've had better results with the Hunchback-4P that I eventually voted for. It's a blunt instrument, but I've seen it work well in a lot of lances.

[Son of Kerenski]

Always loved the 6M and the Gladiator is like a better version of it.

But gotta respect the Hunchback 4J.

Decent damage at long range and nasty at close with 5 ML (only 3 less than the 4P) on average only does 1 point less than a 6M (if 4 out of 6 missiles hit).

[Dave Talley]

The Vindicator was similarly effective but with slightly longer range.

As mentioned before the Dervish is surprisingly good firstly in a supporting role, but has close punch if needed. although I never did like the SRM ammo in the arms.

My favored medium lance had at least 1 Dervish supporting several Enforcer types.

Been enjoying using the Vindy in HBS Battletech,
My annoyance with the dervish is no hands, SRMs should be in torsos just like the LRMs

[Colt Ward]

Or even better, wrist launchers!  Who does not want rockets launching from their wrists?

Paddle hands?  Bah . . .

Of course, mercs/pirates just 'frankenmech' it to place a pair of classic trio hands and move them to wrist launchers.  Extra points for mixing the hands between the trio!

[Arkansas Warrior]

The Phoenix Hawk epitomizes everything that is good about medium BattleMechs for me. Thus I've chosen the PXH-1D from your list. But truth be told, it's not an improvement over the regular PXH-1 version - in my eyes, the MGs amount to a heat neutral pair of crit seekers.

The 6M Wolverine is a close second, though it is a really wannabe heavy. And if you‘re not fighting in a phone booth, the standard 1N Griffin is a fearsome machine. Somehow I never liked the 1S, though it looks good on paper.

This is basically my opinion.  I have a particular soft spot for the Centurion-AL, but I realize that it’s more of a pocket heavy than a true medium.  Also shoutout to the Crab.  Fun, if rare and limited by its lack of jump jets.

[Force of Nature]

3025 Wolfhound is missing, but voted anyway.

[Daryk]

The Wolfhound is a light 'mech, so it's not actually missing from this list.

[Force of Nature]

Doh! my bad. Nevermind...

[Sartris]

People forget it’s a light because it’s better than most 40 tonners  :))

[Daryk]

Also true!  8)

[Hellraiser]

It also wasn't invented till 3028, so like the Cronus would be excluded for that reason too.

[TigerShark]

It also wasn't invented till 3028, so like the Cronus would be excluded for that reason too.

The GLD-4R was extinct by that era, as well. Hadn't been produced in 300 years.

[CrossfirePilot]

The GLD-4R was extinct by that era, as well. Hadn't been produced in 300 years.

Which is a shame, because it had everything I want in a 55 ton 5/8 mech.  PPC, SRM, MLs

[TigerShark]

Which is a shame, because it had everything I want in a 55 ton 5/8 mech.  PPC, SRM, MLs

It suffers from a pretty mean heat curve when jumping. But is otherwise one of the best of its era. It was made in the late 25th century, making my estimate way wrong. It hadn't been produced in 450 years. lol But in that time, it really would have had no competitors to match its abilities. One of those scenarios when the fluff just doesn't match up to the machine.

[Kovax]

I've been a fan of the HER-2M for years.  Its 7/11 speed easily puts it into the rear arc of an opponent, with triple MLs to punch holes and a pair of MGs to refill those holes with crit-seeking lead.  The Flamer is useful for anti-infantry work, starting fires (always amusing), or delivering heat to an already overheated target instead of firing one of the MLs.  It can run and fire everything except either the Flamer or one ML without building heat, and its armor is pretty close to the limit for its tonnage.  I've taken on and taken down some really nasty heavies and assaults with these over the years, and consider it my favorite one-on-one medium duelist, as well being as a great scout-hunter and backstabber in larger battles.  The biggest down sides are that it has no long-range firepower at all, and that it's on the low end of the Medium chart, meaning less physical damage and lower maximum armor and structure limitations.

The standard PHX-1 likewise makes use of a pair of MGs to supplement its laser firepower without further overextending its heat, but that model is not in the poll, so I chose the well-armored -1K in spite of its lack of jump capability.  As for the -1D, jumping is great when you need it, but raises the to-hit numbers for your own shots just as much as it raises the opponents' shots at you, so it's not something I do often except to get out of bad situations, and the -1D lacks the MGs of the -1 or -1K; a good variant, but shy of greatness.

My third choice would have been the HBK-4J, rather than the -4G or -4P listed.  Packing the LRM compliment of a Whitworth or Dervish into its 50 ton frame while still mounting 5 of the 8 MLs of the -4P means that it's equally at home and dangerous as a fire-support design or as a brawler, and makes a perfect bodyguard unit for a fire support lance until the LRMs run out, at which point it advances to wreak havoc with the MLs in full energy zombie mode.  Incidentally, while a DV is slightly "better" than a WTH in a couple of respects, the WTH is superior to it per ton, and far cheaper for roughly comparable utility if cost is considered in a campaign.  Again, it's not in the poll.

[Kit deSummersville]

Neither of which is available in 3025.

Sparky may or may not be around in 3025, it's never really stated when it was modified.

[Hellraiser]

Sparky may or may not be around in 3025, it's never really stated when it was modified.

I was just going by MUL date of 3035

[Hellraiser]

Thought I'd sort these to see where we ended up.


Wolverine-6M         35    (26.7%)
PhoenixHawk-1D      17    (13%)
Other - Please Elaborate   13    (9.9%)
Vindicator-1R         12    (9.2%)
Crab-20            11    (8.4%)
Gladiator-4R         9    (6.9%)
Griffin-1S            9    (6.9%)
Hunchback-4P         6    (4.6%)
Lynx-8Q            5    (3.8%)
Hunchback-4G         4    (3.1%)
Hermes-2M         3    (2.3%)
Trebuchet-5S         2    (1.5%)
Vulcan-5T            2    (1.5%)
Assassin-21         2    (1.5%)
PhoenixHawk-1K      1    (0.8%)
Cicada-3C            0    (0%)

15 Options + "Other"      131 Total Votes


Can't say I'm surprised by the 1st 2 places.

Some of the others though I am.

I love the Griffin myself for its better heat curve & range.
Would have thought the Cicada got some votes.

The Crab surprises me & the AC20-Back on the other hand I didn't think would even get the 4 it got.

[Greatclub]

I'd say Griffin or steiner griffin, depending on what you have backing you or what you're backing.
.3333

[Apocal]

Thought I'd sort these to see where we ended up.

The Crab surprises me & the AC20-Back on the other hand I didn't think would even get the 4 it got.

The Crab is an acceptable flashbulb. And to offer some defense of the latter four choices, the Hunchback-4G performs much better in objective-based scenarios, where people might not have the option of staying 10 hexes away at all times.

[Minemech]

The Crab is an acceptable flashbulb. And to offer some defense of the latter four choices, the Hunchback-4G performs much better in objective-based scenarios, where people might not have the option of staying 10 hexes away at all times.

The Crab is surprisingly comparable to the HOP-4B Hoplite. Both carry the main guns of heavies, without the supporting firepower to back them. Both move at an appropriate pace for a mech carrying said weapons, with the heat efficiency to use them effectively. Both have appropriate armor for their weapon load, but the Hoplite certainly has an edge in that department. You can view the Crab as a pocket Ost, capable of working with similar cavalry mechs, but lacking the defensive firepower of the heavier mechs. The Hoplite has the main guns of an Orion, and actually outguns a Grand Dragon in that department.   

[TigerShark]

The Crab is surprisingly comparable to the HOP-4B Hoplite. Both carry the main guns of heavies, without the supporting firepower to back them. Both move at an appropriate pace for a mech carrying said weapons, with the heat efficiency to use them effectively. Both have appropriate armor for their weapon load, but the Hoplite certainly has an edge in that department. You can view the Crab as a pocket Ost, capable of working with similar cavalry mechs, but lacking the defensive firepower of the heavier mechs. The Hoplite has the main guns of an Orion, and actually outguns a Grand Dragon in that department.

I feel like the Crab should have had variants which complimented it, on a squad level. It has the weaponry to be a rifleman as part of a Lance, but is painfully weak up-close. That could/would be covered by Lancemates with a variety of weapons. Kind of like how the Catapult has an LRM-20 variant which could compliment the bog standard -C1.

[Daryk]

"Pocket Ost" is a very apt description of a Crab, though it really is only down one (forward firing) Medium Laser in comparison.

[Minemech]

"Pocket Ost" is a very apt description of a Crab, though it really is only down one (forward firing) Medium Laser in comparison.

One of the neat things about the two is that you can deploy them differently based on weapon placement. The Osts are also boxers, whilst the Crab elects for field of fire. This is similar to the Grasshopper/Guillotine paradigm.

[Daryk]

Another great comparison!  :thumbsup:

[CrossfirePilot]

Been enjoying using the Vindy in HBS Battletech,
My annoyance with the dervish is no hands, SRMs should be in torsos just like the LRMs

I second this one, also why not just make it a single SRM4 in the torso?

[Syzyx]

I second this one, also why not just make it a single SRM4 in the torso?

Artifact of the rules of the time. When TRO: 3025 came out only SRM-2 launchers could use Infernos. The Dervish was designed to exploit infernos. Now that any launcher can use inferno ammunition the Dervish, and all those other SRM-2 mechs, look kinda silly.

[CrossfirePilot]

Yeah I do remember that rule. I remember using an Assassin with infernos just to make life miserable for people.

[Greatclub]

Under the original rules the thunderbolt could consistently slap down an Orion because of that SRM-2 it has. Six extra heat a turn reduces it to one weapon and walk heat neutral, with no cooldown pattern. Same with a lot of introtech.

Now the SRM-2 is almost more of a liability due to the ammo-bomb that is impossible to empty by firing it.

[Daryk]

It's not so bad if Fractional Accounting is in play.

[Calimehter]

The Crab surprises me & the AC20-Back on the other hand I didn't think would even get the 4 it got.

The Hunchback is a niche design . . . but "close in combat" is a really common niche, especially in 3025. 

I didn't vote for it, but I wasn't surprised to see a few votes.

[Jim1701]

original basic box-set GRF-1N Griffin.  and yes, I know it has a minimum range, but if you're running it right, that's not a major problem.

This.  Back in the day the GRF-1N was my favorite ride hands down.

[LastChanceCav]

I missed my the voting window, but +1 for the Wolverine 6M. The classic trio sit at the 5/8/5 sweet spot, have the mass advantage on the rest of the class, and the 6M has always been my favorite canon variant.

Cheers,
LCC

[Kovax]

The down side of the GRF-1N is that the armament isn't suited for in-fighting, thanks to minimum range penalties, and a 6/9/6 mover will exploit that shamelessly.  It's a great sniper and harasser when used against 4/6 opponents, less so against other 5/8s, and at a disadvantage when faced with a 6/9, or God forbid, a Jenner.

The WLV-6M is a very good design by 3025 standards, but the vast majority of its firepower is concentrated in one arm, leaving it with a blind corner, and practically disarmed if it gets dis-armed.  I like it, but it's not a favorite by a long shot.

[Ruger]

The down side of the GRF-1N is that the armament isn't suited for in-fighting, thanks to minimum range penalties, and a 6/9/6 mover will exploit that shamelessly.  It's a great sniper and harasser when used against 4/6 opponents, less so against other 5/8s, and at a disadvantage when faced with a 6/9, or God forbid, a Jenner.

The WLV-6M is a very good design by 3025 standards, but the vast majority of its firepower is concentrated in one arm, leaving it with a blind corner, and practically disarmed if it gets dis-armed.  I like it, but it's not a favorite by a long shot.

The Griffin-1N has all its weapons on its right side.

The Wolverine-6M’s is on its RA, LA, LT and Head.

Not sure I agree with your assertions on the latter.

Now, the 6K, IIRC, is another matter.

Ruger

[Daryk]

Anywhere other than featureless terrain, the 6M will have the edge over the 6K.  It's all down to jump jets.

[Kit deSummersville]

A load of infernos to the face might change things in a hurry....

[Daryk]

But that goes both ways, so not really a factor...

[Kit deSummersville]

But that goes both ways, so not really a factor...

Not really, the 6M can't change things up, the 6K has two tons of ammo.

[GreekFire]

Not really, the 6M can't change things up, the 6K has two tons of ammo.

Even so, the jump jets will make a huge difference.
Beyond that, the massive torso-bomb of the -6K is what really eliminated it as a contender for me.

[(SMD)MadCow]

I find the lack of Enforcer disturbing, especially with 2 Pixies and Hunchies on the list.

[Greatclub]

The enforcer has a nice hit at medium(ish) range, but mediocre mobility and 'meh' armor. No GBMFG or disco spam like the hunchback either.

It's a trooper. No more, no less.

[(SMD)MadCow]

The enforcer has a nice hit at medium(ish) range, but mediocre mobility and 'meh' armor. No GBMFG or disco spam like the hunchback either.

It's a trooper. No more, no less.

Same can be said of the Vindicator and yet there it is. Jump Jets give good mobility, the Enforcer can dance around with a 5 hex short range on both its main guns with no minimum range.  'Meh' armor? 9 tons is only beat by the Hunchie and 55 tonners.

[Minemech]

 Under Hellraiser's definition, the Enforcer has a valid claim. Being a trooper does not necessarily mean that it is not dangerous.

[Greatclub]

10 shots with it's most powerful gun; jumping pretty much ensures you can't afford to use your big gun on the resultant crap to-hits.  Not enough speed, range or firepower to be really survivable, although all three are close to enough.

It's a good mech, just not what I can call best with a straight face.

[Liam's Ghost]

For some reason most of the memorable moments I've had with the Enforcer involved either exhausting or nearly exhausting my autocannon ammunition, and then immediately losing the large laser to damage.

[Minemech]

 I would not call it the best either, but it has an argument to make. Personally, I voted before the original poster had defined the term, and I strictly chose 1--my vote was not for the Wolverine.

[Kit deSummersville]

Plus, with only 9 tons of armor, 10 shots might be a feature, not a bug.

[Minemech]

Plus, with only 9 tons of armor, 10 shots might be a feature, not a bug.

It's one of those cases where two tons would allow you to fire freely, but would also attract attention in a crowded battlefield. I think that the Enforcer is one of those designs that thrives on not being perfect, but on being basic. It is an excellent trooper, but there are many good alternatives.

[Sharkapult]

I find the lack of Enforcer disturbing, especially with 2 Pixies and Hunchies on the list.

I agree. The Enforcer is one of my favorites. I'd take it over the AC20 hunchie any day. I had an old gaming buddie that called it a baby Warhammer and since then my appreciation changed.
Compared to a SHS jumping PXH I'm firing my LL every turn while they alternate, and adding another headcapping AC 10 while #s work (remember PXH has 6 head armor). If they fire their meds instead I have a short range through their medium. I'd jump 3 or 4 every turn, and I'm only really afraid of back shots. Even then I can still can respond with either beatstick.
I usually end up with zero AC shots around turn 15-18 which usually isn't a problem. 2 tons is too much imo.
ENF will usually lose to a WVR, mostly due to heavier physical attacks, especially punches against rear armor, but it also is 10 tons lighter. Other mechs at similar weights I like my odds. Like a pair of pocket Jacks in Hold em. Not the best hand, but it'll hold its own most of the time.
Although I guess a mech that can be described as "decent against most but not great" is a wonderful definition of a trooper.
Oh, and I hate the Dervish.

[Daryk]

5 tons lighter than a Wolverine, but otherwise a completely reasonable take on the Enforcer.  :thumbsup:

[Sharkapult]

5 tons lighter than a Wolverine, but otherwise a completely reasonable take on the Enforcer.  :thumbsup:

I thought it was 45! I must have been thinking about the blackjack and PXH. Ahh well.

[Daryk]

The Blackjack is another fine 4/6/4 trooper...  8)

[Sharkapult]

The Blackjack is another fine 4/6/4 trooper...  8)

It's another one of my irrational loves. Even the AC 2 version. Sneaky little infighter we called a mini-grasshopper.

[Daryk]

Never thought of it that way before, but it totally fits!  :thumbsup:

[wanderer25]

 The Enforcer was mentioned, what about the Centurion?  The AL variant in particular?

[CrossfirePilot]

The Enforcer was mentioned, what about the Centurion?  The AL variant in particular?

I would rather take the AL over the Enforcer any day.  It seems with those 10 shots I have always ran out of AC 10 ammo just as things were getting good. Even when mothering those shots to only fire on 7 or better. 

[Fear Factory]

The 6M Wolverine is an absolute beast, even in Alpha Strike. My brother in law ran one in a campaign that always survived after sustaining a ton of damage.

I have a soft spot for the Vindicator. I don't really have luck with PPC's, though.

[(SMD)MadCow]

The Enforcer was mentioned, what about the Centurion?  The AL variant in particular?

The AL is a textbook pocket heavy, good armor and versatile weapon selection. Its biggest weakness is no jump jets to help with its lower end speed.

[wanderer25]

The AL is a textbook pocket heavy, good armor and versatile weapon selection. Its biggest weakness is no jump jets to help with its lower end speed.

Every mechs on the list has  its strong and weak points. The question is what can you live with, later depends on your style of play.

[(SMD)MadCow]

Every mechs on the list has  its strong and weak points. The question is what can you live with, later depends on your style of play.

Yes, but in the question of which is "best", 4/6 with no JJ is not a consideration. I'm boggled by the Hunchy even makeing the list cause it's a 1 trick pony.

[Hellraiser]

The AL is one of my Favorite variants of the Centurion, & clearly my L1 favorite.

But as I stated, I was trying to keep the total #'s down to the "best" factor.

Even if "best" was at just a single role

And as mentioned, the Hunchie was really an honorable mention pick for being the only mass produced AC20 option, and doing what it does, "Urban Defense" pretty well for it.

Black Jack & Whitworth are both mechs I happen to like too, but they didn't scream "Best" over all, or even in a niche, like the Assassin would with "Recon"

[Greatclub]

I'd call the assassin's role "survivable harasser: PITA to take down" with a side of toolbox if you load the missiles with alternate ammo

Then pulse lasers get introduced and it stops being survivable.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Yes, but in the question of which is "best", 4/6 with no JJ is not a consideration. I'm boggled by the Hunchy even makeing the list cause it's a 1 trick pony.

Jump Jets are useful, but plenty of very good mechs lack jump jets.  Not having them shouldn't be a disqualifier.

[(SMD)MadCow]

Jump Jets are useful, but plenty of very good mechs lack jump jets.  Not having them shouldn't be a disqualifier.

For lower speed units, yes absolutely a disqualifier. For faster mechs, they still add a lot of value.

[Daryk]

As part of the iron triangle of speed/firepower/armor, 5/8/5 rules the roost for 3025 medium 'mechs.

[Arkansas Warrior]

For lower speed units, yes absolutely a disqualifier. For faster mechs, they still add a lot of value.

So, the Victor is a better 80 tonner than the Awesome, because it has jump jets?  The Highlander and Marauder II are automatically the best 3025 3/5 movers?  That's silly.

[Retry]

So, the Victor is a better 80 tonner than the Awesome, because it has jump jets?  The Highlander and Marauder II are automatically the best 3025 3/5 movers?  That's silly.

None of those are mediums, though.

[Daryk]

And for the record, the Marauder II IS the best 3/5 mover in 3025...  8)

[Arkansas Warrior]

None of those are mediums, though.

My reading was that "for lower speed units" meant *all* lower speed units.  So I went even lower.  You can do the same with mediums, if you want.  Is every 4/6/4 medium superior to the Hunchback or CN9-AL?  Is every 5/8/5 medium better than the Crab or Wolverine-6K?  Hardly.  Jump jets are nice to have, but saying a mech can't be in the running for "best" without them is like saying that a mech can't be considered the best if it doesn't have maxed armor, or that, say, a Tournament Legal Assault mech can't be considered the best in its class unless it has multiple headcappers.  Sure, those are nice features.  But not having them isn't a disqualifier.

[Arkansas Warrior]

And for the record, the Marauder II IS the best 3/5 mover in 3025...  8)

I'd rather have a BNC-3S.  The MAD has some edges there, but the ones that matter are armor and heat dissipation, not maneuverability.

[(SMD)MadCow]

So, the Victor is a better 80 tonner than the Awesome, because it has jump jets?  The Highlander and Marauder II are automatically the best 3025 3/5 movers?  That's silly.

This thread is about mediums dude.

[Daryk]

True, but he has to know the MAD-4A beats the BNC-3S on both...

[Arkansas Warrior]

Ok.  It still holds.  I’d take a Centurion (especially an AL) over a Vindicator any day of the week.  Just being jump-capable doesn’t make a mech inherently better than one that’s groundbound.  The Wolverine-6K is one of the best mediums in 3025.  The Centurion-AL is an excellent 4/6 medium.  The Crab is no slouch.  The Hunchback is one of the best city-fighters of any class in that era.

[(SMD)MadCow]

Ok.  It still holds.  I’d take a Centurion (especially an AL) over a Vindicator any day of the week.  Just being jump-capable doesn’t make a mech inherently better than one that’s groundbound.  The Wolverine-6K is one of the best mediums in 3025.  The Centurion-AL is an excellent 4/6 medium.  The Crab is no slouch.  The Hunchback is one of the best city-fighters of any class in that era.

And the Enforcer beats them all and hence is the Best.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Ok, now I know you're trolling.  You got me.   ;D

[(SMD)MadCow]

Ok, now I know you're trolling.  You got me.   ;D

 ;D
Love my Enforcers.

[Daryk]

The WVR-6M will take the 6K in just about any terrain beyond empty flat plain...

[Greatclub]

The problem with 4/6 mediums is 4/6 heavies. Without an edge, IE jump jets, it rarely turns out well for the lighter mech.

Centurion  is a good mech to escort archers and the like, or be a 'pocket heavy' if that's your budget, but it isn't a heavy. It's a wannabe.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The WVR-6M will take the 6K in just about any terrain beyond empty flat plain...

In a city, sure.  In very broken terrain, probably.  But I don't think the 6K needs a salt flat to win.  The extra armor, marginally better heat curve and (admittedly very slight) firepower edge will turn more than a few fights.  I'd guess it's more like 60/40 to the 6M in that matchup.


Another good matchup for how close the designs are is BJ-1 vs BJ-1DC (which drops the jets for a heat sink and a pair of SLs).

[GreekFire]

The Wolverine -6K would be worth considering if it didn't have that massive ammo bomb in its Right Torso.
That alone disqualifies it from the running in my book.

[Minemech]

 The most terrifying quality of the WVR-6M is that it is common in the Free Worlds League. A solid trooper is invaluable, but a mech par excellence serving as a trooper is terrifying.

[Retry]

In a city, sure.  In very broken terrain, probably.  But I don't think the 6K needs a salt flat to win.  The extra armor, marginally better heat curve and (admittedly very slight) firepower edge will turn more than a few fights.  I'd guess it's more like 60/40 to the 6M in that matchup.


Another good matchup for how close the designs are is BJ-1 vs BJ-1DC (which drops the jets for a heat sink and a pair of SLs).

You don't need extremely broken terrain, just enough trees and elevation bumps so the 6K cannot either walk 5 or run 7+ consistently enough to keep the to-hit odds even with the 6M (which can always jump 5 hexes and force a +3 modifier vs oncoming attacks regardless of terrain).  Given how close the two designs are in armor and armament, and considering how the 2D6 curve works, having a relative to-hit advantage over your opponent is a far greater advantage than a handful of armor points or a slight firepower advantage.