Fight Night: Atlas AS7-S2 vs Atlas AS8-D

[Greatclub]

It's Steiner vs Davion design philosophies on trial here as each showcases their most dangerous Atlas. In this corner, you have the Steiner AS7-S2 Atlas, an unmovable wall with two ER large lasers, a LRM 15 and a heavy gauss. In the opposite corner, you have the Davion AS8-D, an unstoppable object with two light PPC, two MML-9, a RAC-5, a snubbie, and a mess of small lasers, all on a TSM enhanced frame.

Which force of nature will break!?

[Sir Chaos]

I don´t see how the AS7-S2 can keep the AS8-D from getting into melee range. With AS7-S2´s LRMs and Heavy Gauss taken out of the picture due to minimum range, as compared to the AS8-D only losing utility of the light PPCs, the firepower balance is in the AS8-D´s favor, never mind that it´ll be delivering 40 point kicks to its opponent.

So, my money is on the AS8-D.

[Retry]

The AS8-D might have a slight advantage in a 1v1 duel.  But that's only on Solaris.  The AS7-S2s get a large advantage in as formation size increases like lance-size, company-size, and even battalion-size, where the sheer long range firepower of multiple units can be concentrated to drop closing 'Mechs one by one, which can effectively nullify the TSM's melee advantage.  Waltzing up to one AS7-S2 through a hailstorm of 1 LRM-15, 2 ER LLs, and a backup short-range HGR is one thing, it's another thing entirely to do the same against eight ER LLs, 60 LRMs, and four HGRs.  And that's just at a Lance level.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

The AS8-D might have a slight advantage in a 1v1 duel.  But that's only on Solaris.  The AS7-S2s get a large advantage in as formation size increases like lance-size, company-size, and even battalion-size, where the sheer long range firepower of multiple units can be concentrated to drop closing 'Mechs one by one, which can effectively nullify the TSM's melee advantage.  Waltzing up to one AS7-S2 through a hailstorm of 1 LRM-15, 2 ER LLs, and a backup short-range HGR is one thing, it's another thing entirely to do the same against eight ER LLs, 60 LRMs, and four HGRs.  And that's just at a Lance level.

OTOH, there is still the kickback of the HGR to consider.  If we go with standard 5/4 pilots?  That is a 1 in 12 chance of blowing the PSR each time you fire.  Chances of not falling over for each firing?

• 92%
• 84%
• 77%
• 71%
• 65%
• 59%
• 54%
• 50%
• 46%
• 42%
• 38%
• 35%

And that is the odds of not falling over, at all.  By eight shots, you are at coin flip odds of being knocked over.

Terrain matters as well, if there is cover the Davion is going to be looking to use it, especially if he wants to heat up his TSM to close faster.  This will give him a to-hit penalty.

[Empyrus]

If this were AS7-S3 vs AS8-D, it would be more interesting and even fight, but as it is, i pick the AS8-D, really don't see any way it won't win, beyond bad luck.

EDIT Wait, i remembered the AS8-D wrong. But still inclined to bet on it.

[Retry]

OTOH, there is still the kickback of the HGR to consider.  If we go with standard 5/4 pilots?  That is a 1 in 12 chance of blowing the PSR each time you fire.  Chances of not falling over for each firing?

• 92%
• 84%
• 77%
• 71%
• 65%
• 59%
• 54%
• 50%
• 46%
• 42%
• 38%
• 35%

And that is the odds of not falling over, at all.  By eight shots, you are at coin flip odds of being knocked over.

Terrain matters as well, if there is cover the Davion is going to be looking to use it, especially if he wants to heat up his TSM to close faster.  This will give him a to-hit penalty.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the knock-over PSR.

[Greatclub]

OTOH, there is still the kickback of the HGR to consider.  If we go with standard 5/4 pilots?  That is a 1 in 12 chance of blowing the PSR each time you fire.

You mean you wouldn't stay still anyway in HGR medium or short?

[Nikas_Zekeval]

You mean you wouldn't stay still anyway in HGR medium or short?

That is assuming you can.  And really the S2 is a pure range machine, the 8D needs to get close, probably under 6 hexes where it becomes practical to switch the MMLs over to SRMs.  Plus with only two tons of missile loads, it doesn't have the ammo bins to fart around at range.  So the Lyran is going to want to keep the range open, especially when it gets close, because the 8D is going to want to get under the HGR minimums.

So, I see the S2 being forced to move just to get a good shot.  The 8D wants it to stay put, since if the TSM is up, well at melee range those LPPCs have minimums, and are arm mounted IIRC.  So no real reason not to use the heatsinks for other weapons and do a couple 20 point punches.

Also the 8D has durability on its side, with the SFE, while the S2 has a Light Fusion and the extra two criticals in the CT being part of the HGR.  The capacitors exploding wouldn't guarantee gutting the mech, but it'd come damn close just by itself.

[Natasha Kerensky]

One on one, the -D wins more often than not.

On ideal, terrainless, rolling mapsheets, the -S2 will walk 3 backwards every turn if its player has any brains.  He wants to maximize the time that the -D is between 3 and 13 hexes for the Heavy Gauss to land a 20- or 22-point shot in combination with other weapons and go internal.

But with TSM engaged, the -D can run 6 every turn, closing that distance in just a couple to three turns.  Without a very low gunnery skill, that’s probably not enough time for the -S2 to land a crippling combination before the -D’s terrifying TSM-enhanced physical attacks come into play.  Add realistic terrain or limited room for the -S2 to back up, and the advantage goes further to the -D.

That said, it wouldn’t take much to tip the balance in favor of the -S2.  A partner throwing a couple more long-range shots to increase the likelihood of getting through the -D’s armor in combination with the Heavy Gauss or even just some FASCAM or incendiaries to slow the -D down could do the trick.  Even a lowly Valkyrie might be enough.

TSM machines like the -D are gladiators and will usually win one-on-one engagements.  Machines like the -S2 are team players in hammer-anvil tactics, and can win with the right partner.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm going to remind people that assault mechs get a -1 modifier on PSRs for firing HGRs, and you only need to make the roll if you moved in the same round.

That being said, the 8D definitely has an advantage in a 1 on 1 fight unless it has absolutely terrible initiative rolls and can't get to melee range.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Sheer luck can easily swing the fight either way.  Once the D closes, the S2's in trouble.  But to get there it has to close through a hail of HGR slugs, not to mention ERLL beams and missiles.  And really even once the D's in "minimum" range, the S2 can keep firing its mech-killer, the penalty isn't that bad.  If the S2 makes enough big holes early the D could be crippled (though the S2 doesn't have the critseekers to exploit it, really), whereas the D has almost nothing but small guns.  Hell, team them up and you'll need clantech to stop them.  But I suspect the D will usually be able to close intact enough to win most of the time.




You know, one of the best tactics for the S2 might be to load thunder munitions and use them to make it difficult for the D to close.

[Minemech]

Did you intend to make a poll, or is this simply a discussion?

[Nikas_Zekeval]

I'm going to remind people that assault mechs get a -1 modifier on PSRs for firing HGRs, and you only need to make the roll if you moved in the same round.

The probability chart I posted accounted for that -1, and as myself and others have pointed out, the S2 is going to have to move, to extend the time the engagement is at long and medium range at least, where it has a marked firepower advantage.  One that rapidly flips against it once the 8D gets close enough to start reaching the minimum range of half the S2's weapons.

That being said, the 8D definitely has an advantage in a 1 on 1 fight unless it has absolutely terrible initiative rolls and can't get to melee range.
[/quote]

[Greatclub]

Did you intend to make a poll, or is this simply a discussion?

I didn't are if it was a poll. If three (Two more) people bring it up I'll figure out how to make it one.