Author Topic: MechWarrior: Destiny  (Read 128317 times)

mitchberthelson

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #420 on: 21 September 2019, 13:46:29 »
Is there a dedicated thread for responses/feedback to the Beta? I know we got a feedback form, but was wondering if there is a discussion.

Early thoughts:

There is a limit of six skills + those from modules, even for Elite characters who are supposed to have vast experience. As a result, RAW you can't make characters with the sort of broad but shallow skill sets you were almost forced to have in AToW. Special Forces characters are effectively impossible, and in fact, most of the higher-end academy packages from previous editions can't be replicated. Removing this limit would fix that. There are enough points at those high levels....it's just the silly arbitrary limit.

The game keeps mentioning DEST agents as examples of stuff.....but you literally can't make one with the generation system. They have a sample character that they SAY is DEST, but she doesn't have anywhere near the skills needed and is not a Mechwarrior as all DEST operatives of that era had to be. Looks like whoever wrote that character confused DEST and ISF Covert Ops, especially since she has disguise stuff and analysis skills.

Cues and Tags are all just notes for narration, that is correct. Tags are one-word "punchy" descriptions and cues are longer, but they are all just notes to spark people's minds with no mechanical effect.

There are many "Traditional GM" rules that can be switched on to cut out player capability to edit the story entirely. This is a good thing. I can basically run Mechwarrior 2nd Ed with better rules and an abstracted combat system if I want.

There is also a hybrid RPG/TT Campaign system to use in order to add a smidge of RPG depth to Total Warfare/AS campaigns where pilots unlock new abilities and become more famous/dangerous a la Necromunda. Seems awesome for a game store league/multi-day con.

Needs more fluff, especially surrounding what weapons and gear are like, or players who don't have tons of other books won't know what to do with the options they have for weaponry.

Gonna be running this like crazy when it's done, with only a few minor changes (goodbye, Skill limit), but that's because I was able to quickly find all of the "Traditional GM" options and I have tons of other old books for fluff. Needs more meat on the bones, better layout, and more thought to creating broader characters.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #421 on: 21 September 2019, 13:55:21 »
Is there a dedicated thread for responses/feedback to the Beta? I know we got a feedback form, but was wondering if there is a discussion.

Early thoughts:

There is a limit of six skills + those from modules, even for Elite characters who are supposed to have vast experience. As a result, RAW you can't make characters with the sort of broad but shallow skill sets you were almost forced to have in AToW. Special Forces characters are effectively impossible, and in fact, most of the higher-end academy packages from previous editions can't be replicated. Removing this limit would fix that. There are enough points at those high levels....it's just the silly arbitrary limit.

The game keeps mentioning DEST agents as examples of stuff.....but you literally can't make one with the generation system. They have a sample character that they SAY is DEST, but she doesn't have anywhere near the skills needed and is not a Mechwarrior as all DEST operatives of that era had to be. Looks like whoever wrote that character confused DEST and ISF Covert Ops, especially since she has disguise stuff and analysis skills.

Cues and Tags are all just notes for narration, that is correct. Tags are one-word "punchy" descriptions and cues are longer, but they are all just notes to spark people's minds with no mechanical effect.

There are many "Traditional GM" rules that can be switched on to cut out player capability to edit the story entirely. This is a good thing. I can basically run Mechwarrior 2nd Ed with better rules and an abstracted combat system if I want.

There is also a hybrid RPG/TT Campaign system to use in order to add a smidge of RPG depth to Total Warfare/AS campaigns where pilots unlock new abilities and become more famous/dangerous a la Necromunda. Seems awesome for a game store league/multi-day con.

Needs more fluff, especially surrounding what weapons and gear are like, or players who don't have tons of other books won't know what to do with the options they have for weaponry.

Gonna be running this like crazy when it's done, with only a few minor changes (goodbye, Skill limit), but that's because I was able to quickly find all of the "Traditional GM" options and I have tons of other old books for fluff. Needs more meat on the bones, better layout, and more thought to creating broader characters.

Most people are just using the Update thread as a forum for it. keeps it all together and in a place where the CGL writers can see it.

Crimson Dawn

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #422 on: 21 September 2019, 14:03:27 »
While I don't disagree with most of what you have said, I do have to challenge the idea that the modern system model is so overwhelmingly popular as some would think.
The top sellers to this day are still games like pathfinder and D&D, and the push-back on Pathfinder 2nd ed and Shadowrun 6th, and the backlash on D&D 4th ed show that the crunch gamers are sill the majority of the market.

Wait what?  From this statement it would seem you are implying that 4e D&D and PF2 are not crunch heavy when in fact they are both very crunch heavy.  At the time it came out it was common to try to assert that 4e was too crunch heavy and not enough fluff. 

Also D&D 5e is owning the market for a while now and that is far less crunchy than 4e, PF1, PF2, or any version of 3e D&D.  This actively works against your assertion.  If anything it would tell me that on the whole people are looking away from the crunchier games and looking back to games with less crunch. 

Now that is what I see from an in general perspective from a Battletech perspective that may not hold as true because Battletech is a crunchy game to start with so I could see an argument that if you want to attract current Battletech gamers that a crunchier game may be optimal even if it may be less desirable in the general population at this time.

Also from my experience rules lawyering tends to happen more when you have more hard and fast rules rather than if you have more rules that are based around rulings.  I had way more rules lawyering going on back when I had 3e and 4e than I did playing AD&D (and before) and 5e games.  In those games I tend to have to make more rulings and people may try to convince me of the merits of a certain decision but in the end the DM rules how it goes and since the rules do not directly say what should happen in those instances the rules lawyer has nothing to use against you (well they have no rules to use against you I should say).  Really big rules lawyers tend to get fairly frustrated by that.

EDIT: I would like to note I do not know the mechanics of this particular game so my comments are more of in general experience with other games and I will admit may not apply to this particular game if they have some key differences with the game I do have experience with.
« Last Edit: 21 September 2019, 14:10:33 by Crimson Dawn »

Arthinas

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #423 on: 21 September 2019, 14:08:30 »
Is there a dedicated thread for responses/feedback to the Beta? I know we got a feedback form, but was wondering if there is a discussion.

Early thoughts:

There is a limit of six skills + those from modules, even for Elite characters who are supposed to have vast experience. As a result, RAW you can't make characters with the sort of broad but shallow skill sets you were almost forced to have in AToW. Special Forces characters are effectively impossible, and in fact, most of the higher-end academy packages from previous editions can't be replicated. Removing this limit would fix that. There are enough points at those high levels....it's just the silly arbitrary limit.

It looks to me like the skill limit only applies during character creation, and that you can buy more skills with XP later on. But otherwise yeah, it's a weirdly arbitrary limit when you're working with the likes of elite or even veteran characters.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #424 on: 21 September 2019, 14:10:47 »
First off, happy birthday, victor_shaw, and many happy returns!  :thumbsup:

My own reading of the rules is a mixed bag. A lot I like, and some that I'm apprehensive about.

The Narration system I feel is a little daunting to wrap my head around. I like it for non-combat situations, but I'd prefer (and am glad CGL gave the option for) a more traditional initiative system for combat, just as who goes first is important to me in a combat situation. Also, for combat, I'd have liked a little more granular movement rules to allow for more tactical decisions for the players and GM, but maybe that's part of the Narration process I missed (maybe something like "Sam Pell moves up to Close range, dodging and weaving, and ducking behind a Tri-Dee billboard for cover, trying to get behind the Maskirovka agent as best he can" is supposed to be the norm rather than just "I move to Close range").

That being said, I am very interested in it for non-combat situations as is, with one caveat. In the rules it does say that players and thre GM are supposed to roll with Narrations rather than overruling them. I just fear that that can lead not so much to powergaming, but spotlight-stealing. The GM ought to be given some agency to put his or her foot down when something is about to cause OOC trouble in the group and I don't quite see that in there. (I missed something akin to it on page 62, which covers some, but not all, of my concerns).I like the idea that die rolls are not made for every task, but just ones that have a chance of failure (even though this is supposed to be the default assumption in RPGs), and I like the improvisational nature of play and giving the players some shared ownership in the story and not just "you're going to the Tomb of Horrors, like it or lump it, and all roads you may try to go will lead to Acererak." It does take a group that's willing to risk going off the rails and a DM who's not going to "rocks fall, everyone dies" the group every time he or she sees them change the story's direction. That is going to be a major paradigm shift for groups who have played traditional "Dungeons & Travellers"-style games. And it is going to take careful pre-game communication among the group to find their comfort zone since improvisations can take the game in directions players or the GM may adamantly not want to go.

Mech Combat: I like it very much so far. I'm still getting my head around it completely, but it does look to e to strike that sweet spot for Mech combat in an RPG setting. TW and even Alpha Strike, as great as they are, are unsuited to RPG sessions just by virtue of the length it takes to play a full game -- you're essentially pausing one game to play another, and that's not even getting into the issues of "OK, just how do we handle characters on foot in the middle of a raging Mech battle?" or "OK, how do we handle a character taking a TW point of damage when we go back to character scale?"

This eliminates those issues handily, I think. I like that the system is recognizably BattleTech in design, and is not just abstract or merely narrative. And I'm grateful for the option to use BattleTech minis in the combats. Any chance to push around brightly painted plastic is a bonus to me.

Character creation: THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU! I was completely turned off by AToW by how complex creation was. The process is a breeze in this game. I like the simplified skills and the actually IMO innovative way of linking the damage charts to the STR and WIL attributes. Also, the simplified life paths are a blessing (they remind me almost of Mongoose Traveller's background skills more than anything).

One thing though, why were the skills put all the way at the front of the book and not with the rest of the creation rules? It makes for a lot of page flipping between a good 30-40 pages. Also, I'm still trying to grok the mech conversion rules with regards to missile weapons.

My only concern so far is a lack of a money system (I understand where the devs were going with the idea in trying to keep it from being "Papers and Paychecks" or "AccountTech", and I heartily agree that's not what I want either), as being broke can be a story impetus for the players (how do they pay to replace the faulty actuator on Loren Ipsum's Phoenix Hawk? Can they scrape up enough money to get passage on a Dropship to get to Dustball? What if they sell T.B. Dee's Marauder? Or want to monetize salvage? What if they want to go to the black market on Victoria and haggle over highly illegal support weapons?). It doesn't seem to be something that can be just left to Narration (this is one of those times where the GM ought to be allowed to put a foot down if the player says "oh, and Sam Pell, looking at the 50 billion C-Bills on his cred-chip...") and purchasing items, especially very expensive items on occasion (*coughbattlemechscough*) is a part of the game experience. And I don't see how that can be done without even an abstract money/wealth/credit system.

That being said, I like the idea of starting equipment the character just *has*, and doesn't have to keep track of, as well as the idea of "A-Team ammunition" for the most part, though I think the GM ought to be able to spend a plot point if it's dramatically appropriate to say "and your ammo just ran out. What do you do?".

Which brings me to plot points, which I think I will absolutely love. Letting players and the GM spend points to change the situation (as long as it's not retconning something that's already happened, I'm not quite on board with that) or get situational advantage or just to make the scenario more dramatic is always a plus.
« Last Edit: 21 September 2019, 14:24:29 by Pat Payne »

pixelgeek

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #425 on: 21 September 2019, 14:17:22 »
The thing that does confuse me is why are their Dispositions as well as Cues? Couldn’t the Dispositions just be Cues?

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #426 on: 21 September 2019, 14:26:47 »
Wait what?  From this statement it would seem you are implying that 4e D&D and PF2 are not crunch heavy when in fact they are both very crunch heavy.  At the time it came out it was common to try to assert that 4e was too crunch heavy and not enough fluff. 

Also D&D 5e is owning the market for a while now and that is far less crunchy than 4e, PF1, PF2, or any version of 3e D&D.  This actively works against your assertion.  If anything it would tell me that on the whole people are looking away from the crunchier games and looking back to games with less crunch. 

Now that is what I see from an in general perspective from a Battletech perspective that may not hold as true because Battletech is a crunchy game to start with so I could see an argument that if you want to attract current Battletech gamers that a crunchier game may be optimal even if it may be less desirable in the general population at this time.

Also from my experience rules lawyering tends to happen more when you have more hard and fast rules rather than if you have more rules that are based around rulings.  I had way more rules lawyering going on back when I had 3e and 4e than I did playing AD&D (and before) and 5e games.  In those games I tend to have to make more rulings and people may try to convince me of the merits of a certain decision but in the end the DM rules how it goes and since the rules do not directly say what should happen in those instances the rules lawyer has nothing to use against you (well they have no rules to use against you I should say).  Really big rules lawyers tend to get fairly frustrated by that.

3rd has been considered the crunchiest of the D&D editions by most and 5th is a slightly and I repeat slight less crunch version of that.
4th was an attempt at MMO style lower crunch game. Played it so don't tell me it was not.
Have not played PF 2 since it is was still in beta the last time I looked, but everything I read about it stated it would going for a modern low crunch system that the testers hated.

As for rule lawyering/powergaming. This has been going on in every game since I started playing back it the late 80's. It is by no means a new thing.
The term is also more about a self-centered player type that has to be the center of the game either by being the most powerful (powergaming) or drawing attention to him self by arguing about the rules (rule lawyer). The latter not needing a lot of rules to argue about and and in his/her element in a system with a more interpretive rule system

And none of what you said disproves that narrative/storyteller games are not as hot on the market as some tend to think. It actually proves the opposite.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #427 on: 21 September 2019, 14:57:47 »
@Crimson Dawn

Also not sure of your definition of crunch.
As it we look to be come at this with different definitions if you think 4th is crunch.

monbvol

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #428 on: 21 September 2019, 15:09:41 »
3rd has been considered the crunchiest of the D&D editions by most and 5th is a slightly and I repeat slight less crunch version of that.
4th was an attempt at MMO style lower crunch game. Played it so don't tell me it was not.
Have not played PF 2 since it is was still in beta the last time I looked, but everything I read about it stated it would going for a modern low crunch system that the testers hated.

As for rule lawyering/powergaming. This has been going on in every game since I started playing back it the late 80's. It is by no means a new thing.
The term is also more about a self-centered player type that has to be the center of the game either by being the most powerful (powergaming) or drawing attention to him self by arguing about the rules (rule lawyer). The latter not needing a lot of rules to argue about and and in his/her element in a system with a more interpretive rule system

And none of what you said disproves that narrative/storyteller games are not as hot on the market as some tend to think. It actually proves the opposite.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition is out in DTF and it is frankly a bit of a mixed bag.

It has probably more crunch than first and offends the sensibilities of my gaming group with how pretentious it is about certain things but still looks interesting enough that I know we'll give it a fair shake by actually trying it once the Beastiary is out for it.

But that's enough about that, we can talk about it further in a more appropriate thread.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #429 on: 21 September 2019, 15:19:01 »
Pathfinder 2nd Edition is out in DTF and it is frankly a bit of a mixed bag.

It has probably more crunch than first and offends the sensibilities of my gaming group with how pretentious it is about certain things but still looks interesting enough that I know we'll give it a fair shake by actually trying it once the Beastiary is out for it.

But that's enough about that, we can talk about it further in a more appropriate thread.

Works for me.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #430 on: 21 September 2019, 18:17:43 »
Jut want to bring up so it doesn't get lost.
I like what was done in the Mech-combat system and think it has utility in AToW and Alpha Strike.
But that is not a discussion for this thread so I will be posting about it latter (going out for my birthday dinner soon) in the AToW 2nd thread.
If you want to discussion this I will see you there later.

I just said something similar in that thread. Great minds think alike  8)

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pixelgeek

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #431 on: 21 September 2019, 18:37:07 »
While I don't disagree with most of what you have said, I do have to challenge the idea that the modern system model is so overwhelmingly popular as some would think.

I don't think I meant to imply that they were 'overwhelmingly popular' but when you look at RPGs that are not pathfinder and D&D then you see a lot of movement (as long as its not OSR) towards a more group narrative approach to games.

I tend to play, and read, a lot of indie or small press RPGs so my outlook is very biased in that respect.

The top sellers to this day are still games like pathfinder and D&D, and the push-back on Pathfinder 2nd ed and Shadowrun 6th, and the backlash on D&D 4th ed show that the crunch gamers are sill the majority of the market.

I can't comment on Pathfinder as I think it has too many stats, too many skills and far too much 'crunch' to it. D&D 5th Ed can be played as far more of a narrative game than any previous edition. I agree that it isn't entirely modern but I think that it moved away from the 3/3.5 style of gaming even though it does appear to have a lot of rules. There is a ton of chrome in the game but compared to Pathfinder it requires a lot less stats, skills and die rolling than a game like Pathfinder. I think it is why it is so successful

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #432 on: 21 September 2019, 20:44:03 »
I don't often post here, but I needed to take the time to say something here I felt, because this has been something I've been looking forward to for a long time.

MechWarrior Destiny is everything I've been wanting out of a BattleTech RPG in the last few years. I'm surrounded by people who aren't familiar with what BattleTech is. They may have dabbled in one of the early MechWarrior games, or maybe seen the PC game online. But ultimately, they're not at all familiar with the universe. I tried putting together an AToW group. It turned out to be hard even for me to run. I don't find having to make complicated spreadsheets and automated formulas just to make a character to be fun. Most of my group doesn't either. But I've been aching to introduce people to the universe because it's something I love, and they've expressed interest as well. There just wasn't a good way in which to do so.

This gives that chance.

To me, an RPG should be able cooperatively telling a fun and engaging story together. If people are worried about powergamers, that's a problem with the people you play with, not the system itself. I've been very selective in the kinds of people I've been putting together to run this game. Like other people have said, you have to pick the right game for the right people. Or the right people for the right game. Just because it doesn't fit your style doesn't make it a bad system. There's been a lot of demand for more rules-light, narrative-driven RPGs on the market, and I'm glad to see BattleTech dipping its toes into it, too. I want my players to focus on roleplaying their characters and getting immersed in the story and setting, not figuring out how to min-max the numbers on their character sheet and game the system.

As for combining it with Total War or Alpha Strike, I think it's a great idea, too. I definitely plan to do so. Yes, Total Warfare games take a long time, and so can Alpha Strike games even. But my plan is to alternate back and forth between RP sessions and tactical combat sessions. One week, it may be purely RP setting up for the next engagement. Next week, we carry out the mission. Following session, we RP out the aftermath. You don't have to have sessions that combine both RP and combat. Split it up. Plan it out. To me, the thought of running a BattleTech campaign like a strategy RPG is exciting.

There are undoubtedly going to be some flaws here and there. I already see Willpower could end up being a dump attribute with so few meaningful skills tied to it. But I'm definitely eager to test the system out and run a game with my group finally after all these years.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #433 on: 21 September 2019, 22:46:36 »
Another specific issue I see is with "Inventory" items.  A character gets four.  And they range from "Audio/Video Storage Chip" to "Fusion Recharger".  That's just a little too broad of a spectrum for items that are supposedly so generic a character only gets four.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #434 on: 21 September 2019, 23:19:05 »
I'm really favourably impressed with what I see in MW: Destiny so far -- it's about as light as I need it to be, and the 'mech combat / crossover stuff is looking promising.

It's what I need it to be -- and a co-created narrative isn't a bad thing or a negative mark, it's just a different approach than before.


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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #435 on: 21 September 2019, 23:51:59 »
A different approach that requires a level of ongoing cooperation rather in excess of what I'm used to seeing from BattleTech players, honestly.  If you have a group that can pull it off, more power to you.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #436 on: 22 September 2019, 00:06:53 »
Another specific issue I see is with "Inventory" items.  A character gets four.  And they range from "Audio/Video Storage Chip" to "Fusion Recharger".  That's just a little too broad of a spectrum for items that are supposedly so generic a character only gets four.

I would assume it's supposed to represent things that the character has immediate access to.  How much do you carry with you on a normal day, even at work?
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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #437 on: 22 September 2019, 00:19:14 »
I would assume it's supposed to represent things that the character has immediate access to.  How much do you carry with you on a normal day, even at work?

For me it tends to be a minimum of two pens, two cell phones, a swiss army knife, my keys(which have a 8 GB USB stick on the key chain), and my wallet.

I can easily add a binder to hold my paperwork/be a hard writing surface, my tool kit, a roll of one wrap velcro, a roll of packing tape, and my laptop to that.

Since my tool bag is too full of tools for me to stuff the packing tape or velcro in I can certainly understand the worry about the inconsistency of how items can be defined and how a character can be limited to only four.


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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #438 on: 22 September 2019, 00:36:07 »
Tool bag
Phone(s)
Utility Knife
Laptop

There, easy enough.  Similarly to "most easy tasks don't require a roll", there are a number of things you can reasonably assume your character has on-hand that don't need to be noted on an inventory sheet.  "Personal identification" and "access to personal funds" are definitely on the list.

I feel like it can't be emphasized enough that Destiny is not an adversarial relationship with the GM; the perceived inconsistency with how items can be defined is... honestly not important.  It speaks to interpreting rules primarily as restrictions and not opportunities.
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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #439 on: 22 September 2019, 01:19:42 »
I feel like it can't be emphasized enough that Destiny is not an adversarial relationship with the GM; the perceived inconsistency with how items can be defined is... honestly not important.  It speaks to interpreting rules primarily as restrictions and not opportunities.

very few games encourage an adversarial relationship with the GM. but a great many players begin the hobby embracing such a relationship all the same.......
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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #440 on: 22 September 2019, 01:42:56 »
very few games encourage an adversarial relationship with the GM. but a great many players begin the hobby embracing such a relationship all the same.......

I'm beginning to suspect that people took the "Kill the bastards" note in the GMs section of Paranoia literally rather than as a joke,,,
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monbvol

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #441 on: 22 September 2019, 01:47:02 »
And what about my data chip(USB drive on my keychain)?

It is quite certainly a fifth discreet item that doesn't quite fit in with anything else.

I'm beginning to suspect that people took the "Kill the bastards" note in the GMs section of Paranoia literally rather than as a joke,,,

I think it comes down to our inherently competitive nature as human beings more than anything else.

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #442 on: 22 September 2019, 03:00:04 »
My reading of the situation is that this is intended to be a very rules light game, given that BT/TW is the opposite I have to wonder at the logic of that decission.

Beyond that reading through the sample characters I've spotted things that don't give me much hope, many core skills seem to be absent: Detective Work, Fixing, Intrusion, Medicine, Social Engineering, Technology, and Transportation. The last might be covered under the rules light thing, but the others are kind-of important.

Take Darice Garzi, she's a spy for the MoC who's cover is a Courtesan, she has Intimidation, but no ability to get information out of people using her feminine charms, she has an Advanced Security Bypass Kit, but no skill to actually use it or generally otherwise get past security systems, nor does she have the ability to pull plans off of computers (rules light may offer an out, but probably shouldn't for computer hacking). No medical skills, no way to suss out who she needs to bribe/seduce or get equipment.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #443 on: 22 September 2019, 03:15:30 »
very few games encourage an adversarial relationship with the GM. but a great many players begin the hobby embracing such a relationship all the same.......
And what about my data chip(USB drive on my keychain)?

It is quite certainly a fifth discreet item that doesn't quite fit in with anything else.

I think it comes down to our inherently competitive nature as human beings more than anything else.
I'm beginning to suspect that people took the "Kill the bastards" note in the GMs section of Paranoia literally rather than as a joke,,,

The effect comes from the layout of a traditional RPG and human competitive nature combined.
Since the GM creates the story, runs the NPC, rolls the killing blows, Etc. it is natural for the PCs to develop a us against him/her mentality.
This tends to get egged on by the large numbers of GMs that tend to delight in creating a Hellscape to torture their players with each session.
Overtime these players go on to form their own groups and the pattern repeats.
I'm not saying this is good or bad, just that it happens.
And some people like these type of games.

Asgo

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #444 on: 22 September 2019, 03:34:14 »
...
I feel like it can't be emphasized enough that Destiny is not an adversarial relationship with the GM; the perceived inconsistency with how items can be defined is... honestly not important.  It speaks to interpreting rules primarily as restrictions and not opportunities.
...
even if you take out any adversarial relationship or competitive nature, Destiny is still goal oriented.
If you don't define the framework for the narrative freedom of the player (holds for items and their functionality, as well as the other world choices the players can throw in on their narration) then the missing rule isn't an opportunity, as either players either have to leave character and discuss "can I?"(if they are defensive in their choices) or it causes lots of rulings of the referee (if they are more aggressive in their choices and the GM has to reign them in).
I wouldn't want the system for any multi-session situation without a lot of meta preparation meetings to hash out the details of that framework yourself or you end up with your narrative all over the place in terms of consistency - which to be honest can be hilarious in one shots.

victor_shaw

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #445 on: 22 September 2019, 03:45:11 »
even if you take out any adversarial relationship or competitive nature, Destiny is still goal oriented.
If you don't define the framework for the narrative freedom of the player (holds for items and their functionality, as well as the other world choices the players can throw in on their narration) then the missing rule isn't an opportunity, as either players either have to leave character and discuss "can I?"(if they are defensive in their choices) or it causes lots of rulings of the referee (if they are more aggressive in their choices and the GM has to reign them in).
I wouldn't want the system for any multi-session situation without a lot of meta preparation meetings to hash out the details of that framework yourself or you end up with your narrative all over the place in terms of consistency - which to be honest can be hilarious in one shots.

I think you hit the nail on the head about why this game is a Con game and not a campaign game.
Consistency is the cornerstone of a good RPG campaign game. The players are running their characters through the already existing universe not creating their own.
So while this type of game works in a undefined setting that has no hard and fast rules.
With the BTU you have 35+ years of real world and 900+ years of in-universe definition to the setting.
Thing work the way they do (even if it doesn't always make sense) because that how they work.
If you are looking to run a Con or beer and pretzel one shot game I can see this system working, but not if you are truly trying to play in the battletech universe.

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #446 on: 22 September 2019, 06:41:08 »
Asgo and Victor_Shaw are exactly right.  It's impossible to have consistency when the system permits (virtually requires) constant redefinition of what's going on at a potentially deep level from player to player.

Regarding the Inventory issue, Scotty is addressing the low end.  How many characters are going to lug around a Mr. Fusion?  And going to back to a much older argument, if a Mr. Fusion is man-portable (since Inventory doesn't weigh anything any more), why isn't BA powered by one again?  Solar Rechargers run under 2kg in AToW, and absolutely make sense on the list.  And at the low end, the memory chip is listed separately form any device that would make it useful.  If the list is going to be that granular, four is the wrong number, as monbvol pointed out.  There are multiple issues here, and no simple explanation will sort them all out.

Mukaikubo

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #447 on: 22 September 2019, 06:56:17 »
Well, I'm certainly glad that this thread has come to the conclusion that the many tabletop games in the marketplace that rely on a cooperative PC-GM relationship aren't really campaign games and just won't ever work consistently. I'll have to notify my group that we've just been playing at imaginary Cons, and not really campaigns; for good measure I should go back and edit the roll20 logs of some of the games we've played to add more zaniness from player to player.  :D Y'all are getting kind of strangely funny about this.

You're wargamers at heart, and you're interpreting roleplaying through that lens. Making extremely broad statements about how it's only natural for players and game masters to be at each other's throats is all a bit silly, isn't it? Generalizing your own experience to an entire, ultra-broad hobby isn't a really... useful way to go about things, I wouldn't think. Now, you can certainly make the argument, as some in this thread has, that placing a game like this into a fanbase that has been brought up on tabletop games that encourage that sort of black and white adversarial relationship is a strange decision, but in my eyes it's pretty clearly to give people who are interested in the setting a foothold into it without having to go through a 90s-heritage spreadsheet RPG or having to learn an 80s-heritage somewhat kludgy (as much as I love it) tabletop ruleset in all its occasionally bizarre permutations. And I'm more than a little baffled at some of the hostility to the idea of giving another group of people a gentler way into something we here theoretically love.

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #448 on: 22 September 2019, 06:57:55 »
I just submitted the character creation data scattering and attribute oddness issues via the form.  We'll see if those go anywhere.  Destiny isn't for me, but if we're going to bring in new players to the overall game, it needs to be easier to understand than it is.

Daryk

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Re: MechWarrior: Destiny
« Reply #449 on: 22 September 2019, 07:22:29 »
Just submitted another issue via the form.  There's no "Out of Range" in 'mech combat.  As written, units with Long range weapons cannot be escaped.